Mike Vick - can he coheres the offense?

[R_S]

6. Talking about what Tomlin didn't do in the Cards game and his comments afterward isn't. By the way, he said in his presser that Jones came in during the "waning moments" of the game and played well. Waning moments? He won the fucking game for you, taking hits and making audibles at the line - from a 3rd stringer. He played for more than 25% of the game. Waning?

Tomlin also said this yesterday, which i found amusing- he said that one of the issues was a "disturbing inability" to convert on third down.

Here's a breakdown of their third down efficiency.

They were zero for their first seven.

They converted three of their last five.

Anyone know why I chose to break down third down efficiency that way?

he also said this.....

Re: On the offense looking more comfortable around Landry than Mike:
I just thought the offense heated up in the latter part of the game, not taking anything away from Landry. A week ago we heated up late in the game. We heated up late in the game this week. We did what was required for us to win.

[Legacy User]

The announcers brought up a stat during the Cards game with Vick.

Out of all his drives with him as the QB (35), only 2 drives went for more than two first downs.

Two...

The number 2...

This many -> I I

That's a lot of 3 and outs or maybe 1 first down and then punt.


Given the talent surrounding you - that's absolute and utter failure. It's seriously, very seriously concerning that the Steelers coaching staff did not think Landry Jones - as bad as he may have been - couldn't improve on the performance of Vick. As 20/20 vision showed us - Jones absolutely improved.

[Legacy User]

The announcers brought up a stat during the Cards game with Vick.

Out of all his drives with him as the QB (35), only 2 drives went for more than two first downs.

Two...

The number 2...

This many -> I I

That's a lot of 3 and outs or maybe 1 first down and then punt.


Given the talent surrounding you - that's absolute and utter failure. It's seriously, very seriously concerning that the Steelers coaching staff did not think Landry Jones - as bad as he may have been - couldn't improve on the performance of Vick. As 20/20 vision showed us - Jones absolutely improved.

Tomlin knew Vick was easing un and was getting ready to duplicate the last 5 minutes vs SD. /sarca

Would love to know whether Laundry sees the field if Vick didn't "get hurt."

Tomlin wins games in spite of himself....I don't care what anyone says.

[stinger8]

This is the way I see it.

1. What Vick did in the SD game was not "heroic" or "outstanding" in any way shape or form. A 10 year vet in this league has to make those throws. He did what any QB should be able to do. He didn't do it for 95% of the game. What does that say? See #2.

2. If Tomlin said that they were going to "round into form" and he had those plays set up for VIck instead of Jones during the Cards game, then that tells me that Vick only knows a fraction of the playbook, after all this time. Tomlin just expected Vick to run to make up the deficiencies, and the rest of the league already knows that. It was made painfully apparent for 3 quarters of the Cards game and 3.9 quarters of the SD game.

3. Reports of Jones being horrible in practice need to be verified and confirmed. Just because Batch said it on a radio program means nothing. What are the details? Are they forthcoming or is one phrase going to snowball into fact like it has here? As I've said repeatedly, is this just a smokescreen for the fact that Tomlin repeats which doesn't work, expecting it to work, and now he has to cover his ass in the media? He actually sounded pissed that questioning Vick's effectiveness is even a topic of conversation.

4. If Tomlin never intended to play Jones because he had little faith in him, then what good is it to have him take up a roster spot? Who runs the scout team offense? 2nd or 3rd? Is he there just to throw to the WR's for practice? WTF?

5. Talking about what would've happened in the Raven or SD game had Jones been inserted is a waste of time.

6. Talking about what Tomlin didn't do in the Cards game and his comments afterward isn't. By the way, he said in his presser that Jones came in during the "waning moments" of the game and played well. Waning moments? He won the fucking game for you, taking hits and making audibles at the line - from a 3rd stringer. He played for more than 25% of the game. Waning?

If Tomlin did make the bolded above comment, then that is just ugly. Absolutely disrespectful. You think Jones wants to run through a wall for a coach that says that about what I would term a "heroic" performance. Dude took a couple of serious shots to make plays for the team That win may very well be the difference between making the playoffs or missing. SMH

[stinger8]

A real turnover would probably be a start. How many near-interceptions equal a real one, by the way?

Yes, let's let our QB continue to throw passes directly into the defenders' hands and pretend that doesn't mean anything.

Let me propose some scenarios to you:

Antwon Blake gets torched by a WR who is now wide open on a go pattern, nothing between him and the end zone. But the WR drops it.

David Decastro completely whiffs on a block, giving a LB a straight line to the QB, but the QB manages to evade the tackle, avoiding the sack.

Le'veon bell fumbles the ball, but the ball goes out of bounds.



By the parameters you're setting by saying that passes thrown directly to defenders don't matter, you're saying that all those above scenarios are examples of guys doing their jobs just fine. You know, because of none of those scenarios show anything negative on the box score.

That's how fucking dumb that argument sounds.

That's how fucking short-sighted that argument is.

If you want to continue pretending that's the reality and continue showing everyone how naive and moronic you are, by all means...continue.

Great post. Bang on

[R_S]

The announcers brought up a stat during the Cards game with Vick.

Out of all his drives with him as the QB (35), only 2 drives went for more than two first downs.

Two...

The number 2...

This many -> I I

That's a lot of 3 and outs or maybe 1 first down and then punt.


Given the talent surrounding you - that's absolute and utter failure. It's seriously, very seriously concerning that the Steelers coaching staff did not think Landry Jones - as bad as he may have been - couldn't improve on the performance of Vick. As 20/20 vision showed us - Jones absolutely improved.

Which makes what the defense did even more admirable. 3 and out and back on the field, over and over. Those dudes were warriors.

[Havoc]

6. Talking about what Tomlin didn't do in the Cards game and his comments afterward isn't. By the way, he said in his presser that Jones came in during the "waning moments" of the game and played well. Waning moments? He won the fucking game for you, taking hits and making audibles at the line - from a 3rd stringer. He played for more than 25% of the game. Waning?

Re: On the offense looking more comfortable around Landry than Mike:
I just thought the offense heated up in the latter part of the game, not taking anything away from Landry. A week ago we heated up late in the game. We heated up late in the game this week. We did what was required for us to win.

I do not like either one of those statements.

If I were Landry Jones, "waning moments" would rub me the wrong way. That's an odd thing for a coach to say.

Offenses often "heat up" when they are opened up and struggle when playing conservative.

[Legacy User]

A real turnover would probably be a start. How many near-interceptions equal a real one, by the way?

Yes, let's let our QB continue to throw passes directly into the defenders' hands and pretend that doesn't mean anything.

Let me propose some scenarios to you:

Antwon Blake gets torched by a WR who is now wide open on a go pattern, nothing between him and the end zone. But the WR drops it.

David Decastro completely whiffs on a block, giving a LB a straight line to the QB, but the QB manages to evade the tackle, avoiding the sack.

Le'veon bell fumbles the ball, but the ball goes out of bounds.



By the parameters you're setting by saying that passes thrown directly to defenders don't matter, you're saying that all those above scenarios are examples of guys doing their jobs just fine. You know, because of none of those scenarios show anything negative on the box score.

That's how fucking dumb that argument sounds.

That's how fucking short-sighted that argument is.

If you want to continue pretending that's the reality and continue showing everyone how naive and moronic you are, by all means...continue.

Great post. Bang on

Yeah, notice how he never responded to it?

[jeemie]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down. That Landry came on and played well is something they almost have to downplay because of that- or at the very least, it would be their first unconscious choice to downplay it and dismiss it as kind of an "in the heat of the moment" fluke. We all do this- I admit (and Pitt pointed it out)- I don't trust Mike Vick, so the first thing I reflexively did was downplay what accomplishments he did have.

2) I think part of this is gamesmanship to keep Landry's head on an even keel considering the odds are still good that he is going to start this week. And it's going to be a tough assignment for the kid...on the road, against a 1-5 team but one with a tough defense and has been in its games.. And one that has always played us tough. I fully expect Jones to struggle Sunday- so maybe Tomlin dissing him will give him the chip on his shoulder he needs to play with confidence...whereas too much praise might go to his head.

[swissvale72]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down. That Landry came on and played well is something they almost have to downplay because of that- or at the very least, it would be their first unconscious choice to downplay it and dismiss it as kind of an "in the heat of the moment" fluke. We all do this- I admit (and Pitt pointed it out)- I don't trust Mike Vick, so the first thing I reflexively did was downplay what accomplishments he did have.

2) I think part of this is gamesmanship to keep Landry's head on an even keel considering the odds are still good that he is going to start this week. And it's going to be a tough assignment for the kid...on the road, against a 1-5 team but one with a tough defense and has been in its games.. And one that has always played us tough. I fully expect Jones to struggle Sunday- so maybe Tomlin dissing him will give him the chip on his shoulder he needs to play with confidence...whereas too much praise might go to his head.

After Curtis Martin's first game as a pro....his coach, Bill Parcells, said something along the lines of "He's not ready for Hall of Fame induction yet." Years later, Parcells presented him for HOF induction. Not saying Landry Jones is heading for Canton, but along the lines of Jeems' point here.

[Havoc]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down. That Landry came on and played well is something they almost have to downplay because of that- or at the very least, it would be their first unconscious choice to downplay it and dismiss it as kind of an "in the heat of the moment" fluke. We all do this- I admit (and Pitt pointed it out)- I don't trust Mike Vick, so the first thing I reflexively did was downplay what accomplishments he did have.

2) I think part of this is gamesmanship to keep Landry's head on an even keel considering the odds are still good that he is going to start this week. And it's going to be a tough assignment for the kid...on the road, against a 1-5 team but one with a tough defense and has been in its games.. And one that has always played us tough. I fully expect Jones to struggle Sunday- so maybe Tomlin dissing him will give him the chip on his shoulder he needs to play with confidence...whereas too much praise might go to his head.

After Curtis Martin's first game as a pro....his coach, Bill Parcells, said something along the lines of "He's not ready for Hall of Fame induction yet." Years later, Parcells presented him for HOF induction. Not saying Landry Jones is heading for Canton, but along the lines of Jeems' point here.

I'm aware of downplaying as a strategy.

Parcells did it the right way.

Tomlin's "waning moments" is factually incorrect and utter nonsense.

[jeemie]

I'm aware of downplaying as a strategy.

Parcells did it the right way.

Tomlin's "waning moments" is factually incorrect and utter nonsense.

That's why I think with Tomlin it's a little more 1 than 2.

He obviously didn't see this with Landry Jones (no matter his words to the contrary), and my guess is doesn't trust it can be sustained.

PS More fuel for the fire- Ed Bouchette tweeted another thing Tomlin said about Landry's performance...something about how it was good, but we "aren't going to hold a pep rally about it".

[Legacy User]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down.

The part that bothers me about this, and I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about it, is if the coaches distrust him so badly that refused to pull an obviously struggling Vick out of the game...then why in the hell is he on the team at all?

This is what, his 3rd year, here? If the coaching staff doesn't trust you enough to put you in for a guy who managed 6 yards in over a half of play, then the coaching staff needs to get him the hell off the team and find someone else.

The other thing that bothers me is why did the play book seem to open up more when Landry came in? They seemed scared to death to let Vick throw any passes any meaningful distance. Jones comes in looks to me like we magically have a somewhat legitimate playbook to deal with (I went back and looked at the game log, and it seems to confirm this). We suddenly start working the middle of the field and getting a little more range into our pass plays instead of running 3 yard slants, WR screens, and quick outs ad nauseam.

So why are we handcuffing ourselves to a QB that can only use a gimped playbook and isn't moving the offense at all?

Because they think it's "safe"? If you're determined to go to that level of being safe, you might as well take the QB out and just run the Wildcat with Bell/Williams just running up the gut every play. We surely would have gotten more than 6 yards out of it. And hey, no passes would be thrown, so it's safe!

[Havoc]

The offense did instantly look better when Jones entered the game. I'm not crowning him though (as I've said before).

I posted this in another thread. Adding it here to the discussion...

Vick had a 7.8 ypa vs the Chargers.

The offense scored a reasonable amount of points (for playing with a backup qb) in the 2 games Vick started and finished.

Saying Vick cannot duplicate what he did late vs Chargers is like saying the guy who just hit a dagger 3 pointer can't make another one.

Yes, I know he got lucky with several that could have been picked. It happens though although he was more fortunate than most.

As I've said before, I want to see Jones start vs Chiefs if Ben cannot go.

[Legacy User]

The offense did instantly look better when Jones entered the game. I'm not crowning him though (as I've said before).

I posted this in another thread. Adding it here to the discussion...

Vick had a 7.8 ypa vs the Chargers.

The offense scored a reasonable amount of points (for playing with a backup qb) in the 2 games Vick started and finished.

Saying Vick cannot duplicate what he did late vs Chargers is like saying the guy who just hit a dagger 3 pointer can't make another one.

Yes, I know he got lucky with several that could have been picked. It happens though although he was more fortunate than most.

As I've said before, I want to see Jones start vs Chiefs if Ben cannot go.

I'm not crowning Jones either. We ran so many short, low-risk, routes with Vick in the game that there's no doubt the defense was playing up, and likely continued that when Jones entered...and Jones just took advantage of that. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he struggled against KC.

I'm just trying to figure out why these plays were seemingly available to Jones, and not Vick...when the board commentary seems to be that Jones can't be trusted with walking with a pair of scissors, let alone running an NFL offense, and if these plays were available to Jones and not Vick...why in the hell did he rot on the bench while Vick wasn't doing shit on the field.

[Legacy User]

The offense did instantly look better when Jones entered the game. I'm not crowning him though (as I've said before).

I posted this in another thread. Adding it here to the discussion...

Vick had a 7.8 ypa vs the Chargers.

The offense scored a reasonable amount of points (for playing with a backup qb) in the 2 games Vick started and finished.

Saying Vick cannot duplicate what he did late vs Chargers is like saying the guy who just hit a dagger 3 pointer can't make another one.

Yes, I know he got lucky with several that could have been picked. It happens though although he was more fortunate than most.

As I've said before, I want to see Jones start vs Chiefs if Ben cannot go.

I'm not crowning Jones either. We ran so many short, low-risk, routes with Vick in the game that there's no doubt the defense was playing up, and likely continued that when Jones entered...and Jones just took advantage of that. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he struggled against KC.

I'm just trying to figure out why these plays were seemingly available to Jones, and not Vick...when the board commentary seems to be that Jones can't be trusted with walking with a pair of scissors, let alone running an NFL offense, and if these plays were available to Jones and not Vick...why in the hell did he rot on the bench while Vick wasn't doing shit on the field.

It's been referenced several times, attributed to both Bell and Brown, that Jones was changing plays at the line and tweaking routes based on coverages.

[COR-TEN]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down.

Something about this sounds fishy to me. They would have needed another QB regardless because they always carry 3. Besides, if Vick wasn't available, who else would they have signed? Would that guy have been the new #3 or #2? They might have just bumped Jones to #3 because of Vick's supposed experience. What if they signed some other mediocre washed up wanna be starter QB? Would they have let the two battle out the #2?

I had a thought last night, though. What if Jones did things in the game, on the field, that pissed Tomlin off? AB said Jones audible'd out of a run play because he saw single coverage. Was Tomlin annoyed he went outside the game plan? Would that explain his less than enthusiastic comments about Jones?

Trying to temper a players optimism to insure a level headed performance seems childish and immature. Are these men or what? Jones will learn sooner rather than later that he's not Joe Montana. And he seems kind of even tempered anyway. You'd also think Tomlin and the coaches would have a talk with him privately and tell him not to get a big head.

Why do it in the media and make it public?

[COR-TEN]

I'm just trying to figure out why these plays were seemingly available to Jones, and not Vick...when the board commentary seems to be that Jones can't be trusted with walking with a pair of scissors, let alone running an NFL offense,

[Legacy User]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down.

Something about this sounds fishy to me. They would have needed another QB regardless because they always carry 3. Besides, if Vick wasn't available, who else would they have signed? Would that guy have been the new #3 or #2? They might have just bumped Jones to #3 because of Vick's supposed experience. What if they signed some other mediocre washed up wanna be starter QB? Would they have let the two battle out the #2?

I had a thought last night, though. What if Jones did things in the game, on the field, that pissed Tomlin off? AB said Jones audible'd out of a run play because he saw single coverage. Was Tomlin annoyed he went outside the game plan? Would that explain his less than enthusiastic comments about Jones?

Trying to temper a players optimism to insure a level headed performance seems childish and immature. Are these men or what? Jones will learn sooner rather than later that he's not Joe Montana. And he seems kind of even tempered anyway. You'd also think Tomlin and the coaches would have a talk with him privately and tell him not to get a big head.

Why do it in the media and make it public?

This place would be incredibly boring if the NFL didn't require coaches to hold press conferences.

I imagine some of you guys have "A Beautiful Mind"-esque bulletin boards in your garages covered in Tomlin press conference transcripts with strings pinned from phrase to phrase like you're trying to catch a serial killer.

[randomsteelerfan]

If Tomlin did make the bolded above comment, then that is just ugly. Absolutely disrespectful. You think Jones wants to run through a wall for a coach that says that about what I would term a "heroic" performance. Dude took a couple of serious shots to make plays for the team That win may very well be the difference between making the playoffs or missing. SMH

Jesus, "absolutely disrespectful"? Could you be any more dramatic? Waning moments, who cares what he said. "Towards the end of the game". "Late second half". SO WHAT! Your fabricating whatever just to bitch.

Also, since we're taking everything literally, you may want to look up the meaning of the word "heroic". LD's performance was hardly heroic and its absolutely disrespectful to actual hero's that you would compare a sporting event performance to real heroism.

See? I can be dumb too.

[Legacy User]

If Tomlin did make the bolded above comment, then that is just ugly. Absolutely disrespectful. You think Jones wants to run through a wall for a coach that says that about what I would term a "heroic" performance. Dude took a couple of serious shots to make plays for the team That win may very well be the difference between making the playoffs or missing. SMH

Jesus, "absolutely disrespectful"? Could you be any more dramatic? Waning moments, who cares what he said. "Towards the end of the game". "Late second half". SO WHAT! Your fabricating whatever just to bitch.

Also, since we're taking everything literally, you may want to look up the meaning of the word "heroic". LD's performance was hardly heroic and its absolutely disrespectful to actual hero's that you would compare a sporting event performance to real heroism.

See? I can be dumb too.

Heroic is pretty absurd. He lobbed a ball to Bryant, who made a great play to catch it and stay inbounds, and threw an 8-yard pass to Bryant and watched him work over the entire Cardinals defense for 80 more yards. He was way better than Vick, but heroic? And this is probably coming from someone who wants to attribute the game-winning drive against the Chargers to defensive mistakes and one lucky scramble...

[randomsteelerfan]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down. That Landry came on and played well is something they almost have to downplay because of that- or at the very least, it would be their first unconscious choice to downplay it and dismiss it as kind of an "in the heat of the moment" fluke. We all do this- I admit (and Pitt pointed it out)- I don't trust Mike Vick, so the first thing I reflexively did was downplay what accomplishments he did have.

The disturbing thing about this is why have Landry Jones on the roster? If you're afraid to play the guy, what's his purpose? It's something most here have been rightfully questioning and really the weird addendum to your argument about playing LJ sooner. If Tomlin is so averse to LJ, why is he on this team?

[Legacy User]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down. That Landry came on and played well is something they almost have to downplay because of that- or at the very least, it would be their first unconscious choice to downplay it and dismiss it as kind of an "in the heat of the moment" fluke. We all do this- I admit (and Pitt pointed it out)- I don't trust Mike Vick, so the first thing I reflexively did was downplay what accomplishments he did have.

The disturbing thing about this is why have Landry Jones on the roster? If you're afraid to play the guy, what's his purpose? It's something most here have been rightfully questioning and really the weird addendum to your argument about playing LJ sooner. If Tomlin is so averse to LJ, why is he on this team?

His wife was teammates with Ben's sister on the Oklahoma basketball team.

[randomsteelerfan]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down.

The part that bothers me about this, and I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about it, is if the coaches distrust him so badly that refused to pull an obviously struggling Vick out of the game...then why in the hell is he on the team at all?

This is what, his 3rd year, here? If the coaching staff doesn't trust you enough to put you in for a guy who managed 6 yards in over a half of play, then the coaching staff needs to get him the hell off the team and find someone else. !

Just saw this, ignore my earlier post. My thoughts exactly.

[jeemie]

I don't know. On the one hand, Tomlin's saying he's not shocked by what Landry Jones did.

On the other, he's downplaying it and only went to him to play because he had no choice.

Only Mike Tomlin knows what Mike Tomlin thinks of Landry Jones.

On the bright side, at least this week, Jones is bringing a suit to the game.

No more flannel!

[Legacy User]

I don't know. On the one hand, Tomlin's saying he's not shocked by what Landry Jones did.

On the other, he's downplaying it and only went to him to play because he had no choice.

Only Mike Tomlin knows what Mike Tomlin thinks of Landry Jones.

On the bright side, at least this week, Jones is bringing a suit to the game.

No more flannel!

Unless he goes full hipster and wears a flannel suit...

[Legacy User]

I think two things are at work here:

1) As Fury said, the coaches don't like/trust what they see in Landry Jones, so they went shopping for a backup QB when Grad went down.

The part that bothers me about this, and I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about it, is if the coaches distrust him so badly that refused to pull an obviously struggling Vick out of the game...then why in the hell is he on the team at all?

This is what, his 3rd year, here? If the coaching staff doesn't trust you enough to put you in for a guy who managed 6 yards in over a half of play, then the coaching staff needs to get him the hell off the team and find someone else. !

Just saw this, ignore my earlier post. My thoughts exactly.

The more I think about this, the more I think that Haley doesn't trust Vick very much and wanted to put Jones in, but Tomlin was insisting they keep Vick in.

It's the only thing that makes sense. Haley was scared Vick was going to fuck everything up, so he called the most conservative pass plays possible. Vick goes down with an injury, and we suddenly see the offense opening up when Landry is forced into action.

[jeemie]

The more I think about this, the more I think that Haley doesn't trust Vick very much and wanted to put Jones in, but Tomlin was insisting they keep Vick in.

It's the only thing that makes sense. Haley was scared Vick was going to fuck everything up, so he called the most conservative pass plays possible. Vick goes down with an injury, and we suddenly see the offense opening up when Landry is forced into action.

Aikman did drop that comment that Haley thought Jones was ready to be the backup to ben, and then i can't remember what he said afterwards that was the reason he was not.

Could be true.

Put it on your Beautiful Mind Board so we can look at it later, as Pierogi would say.

I think of it more like the police storyboard you see in the procedurals on TV.

[Legacy User]

Jones came in with 10:21 left in the third qtr with the steelers down 4.

That fact lines up with nothing that Tomlin described. I have to ask, what game Mike Tomlin was watching Sunday.

[Legacy User]

Jones came in with 10:21 left in the third qtr with the steelers down 4.

That fact lines up with nothing that Tomlin described. I have to ask, what game Mike Tomlin was watching Sunday.

Yes, clearly based on his word choice during a press conference this man knows nothing about football.

I've already pinned one end of the string to "waning" and the other end to "18 seconds missing in San Diego." There's got to be a connection here somewhere.