Bell Skipping OTA's

[955876]

They won those Lombardi’s because of the way he plays. Now you’re saying he’s losing chances to play for titles because of the way he plays

I don’t think that’s what I’m saying at all.

What I’m saying is there is a VERY high correlation to turning the ball over and losing football games. And that’s not simply my opinion but based on a long standing league fact.

I took it a step further (and the tine) to actually look at all of our playoff games/seasons under Ben and post the results.

Those Lombardi’s we won occurred when Ben tossed 7 TDs to only 3 INTs in 2005 postseason vs his counterparts tossing 4 TDs and 5 INTs.

In 2008 he only had 3 TDs total in the postseason vs. his counterparts tossing 6 TDs but still won a SB that year. Part of how that was able to happen was that he only had one INT to their 5.

I also think the “how he plays” is something taken in a vacuum. 14 year vet Ben should be able to play a more “heady” type of game than 1st or 2nd year Ben.

He was criticized for being merely a “game manager” early in his career yet I’m to believe he isn’t capable of managing a game 14 years later? Just all gunslinger all the time? INTs be damned?

I don’t buy that.

I get the defense has let us down. I get the the coaching has been questionable. I also get we’ve had some bad luck with the injury bug.

None of that changes the fact that since 2010 Super Bowl to today Ben has routinely been on the losing end of the QB turnover battle and the results have been on par with historical stats and what one would expect.

And it hasn’t mattered if it’s Tom Brady or Joe Smuckatelli on the opposing sideline. We still end up with the L after losing the QB turnover battle.

I’m also not saying all of our woes are Ben’s fault.

But I do believe that the INT here and fumble there he’s been doing in postseason games have been big enough to offset whatever good he also does that day.

In other words, his good hasn’t been enough of a difference maker to counter not only his bad but also the bad D & poor coaching. And when you have a bad D and questionable coaching your QB can’t contribute to the mess.

Ours has and that leads to one and dones against QBs that complete 9 passes all game.

[Jobu]

They won those Lombardi’s because of the way he plays. Now you’re saying he’s losing chances to play for titles because of the way he plays

I don’t think that’s what I’m saying at all.

What I’m saying is there is a VERY high correlation to turning the ball over and losing football games. And that’s not simply my opinion but based on a long standing league fact.

I took it a step further (and the tine) to actually look at all of our playoff games/seasons under Ben and post the results.

Those Lombardi’s we won occurred when Ben tossed 7 TDs to only 3 INTs in 2005 postseason vs his counterparts tossing 4 TDs and 5 INTs.

In 2008 he only had 3 TDs total in the postseason vs. his counterparts tossing 6 TDs but still won a SB that year. Part of how that was able to happen was that he only had one INT to their 5.

I also think the “how he plays” is something taken in a vacuum. 14 year vet Ben should be able to play a more “heady” type of game than 1st or 2nd year Ben.

He was criticized for being merely a “game manager” early in his career yet I’m to believe he isn’t capable of managing a game 14 years later? Just all gunslinger all the time? INTs be damned?

I don’t buy that.

I get the defense has let us down. I get the the coaching has been questionable. I also get we’ve had some bad luck with the injury bug.

None of that changes the fact that since 2010 Super Bowl to today Ben has routinely been on the losing end of the QB turnover battle and the results have been on par with historical stats and what one would expect.

And it hasn’t mattered if it’s Tom Brady or Joe Smuckatelli on the opposing sideline. We still end up with the L after losing the QB turnover battle.

I’m also not saying all of our woes are Ben’s fault.

But I do believe that the INT here and fumble there he’s been doing in postseason games have been big enough to offset whatever good he also does that day.

In other words, his good hasn’t been enough of a difference maker to counter not only his bad but also the bad D & poor coaching. And when you have a bad D and questionable coaching your QB can’t contribute to the mess.

Ours has and that leads to one and dones against QBs that complete 9 passes all game.

No disagreement here about your turnover facts...they are facts. Im just saying that Ben has won a lot of games and two rings being Ben Roethlisberger. As much as we might want him to adapt, I don’t think it’s going to happen.
But again...I’m not giving the defense a pass. Ben turned the ball over twice against Jax, yet the offense still put up 42. Any type of respectable defensive performance wins that game...not to mention (gulp) a turnover or three of their own.

[bradshaw2ben]

BR: 13-8, 62.43%, 30 TD-24 INT, 86.5 rating, 7.78 YPA, 7.07 AY/A
TB: 14-5, 57.24%, 30 TD-26 INT, 83.0 rating, 8.41 YPA, 7.16 AY/A

[955876]

Time frame if those stats B2B?

Career most likely.

Our last SB win was a decade ago. Run the numbers from 2009 forward.

[bradshaw2ben]

Time frame if those stats B2B?

Their entire postseason careers.

[955876]

Just edited my post.

Figured it was career.

Conversation has really centered on the decade since we’ve last won a ring.

Has Brady ever lost a playoff game to a QB that only completed 9 passes?

[955876]

Actually he has. Faggo completed 4 passes in the 2009 stomping. Ravens hung 24 on Pats in first quarter.

[bradshaw2ben]

BR: 13-8, 62.43%, 30 TD-24 INT, 86.5 rating, 7.78 YPA, 7.07 AY/A
TB: 14-5, 57.24%, 30 TD-26 INT, 83.0 rating, 8.41 YPA, 7.16 AY/A

since 2009:

BR: 5-6, 62.81%, 15 TD-12 INT, 86.0 rating, 7.58 YPA, 6.98 Y/A

[955876]

Ok, I just glanced Tom Brady’s stats.

And while I know what point you were attempting to make B2B, you ended up just reinforcing mine.

When Brady turns it over his losses go up. He plays clean he wins.

Brady has also been to ummmm 3 out of the past 4 SBs and win 2 of them.

Ben hasn’t been to a SB in 7 years and hasn’t won one in a decade.

Please don’t compare the two.

Ben’s postseason stats are inflated by early in career Ben where he protected the ball.

Today’s Ben will sling it all around the field and rack up yardage.

Unfortunately he also turns it over at a rate higher than his counterparts which plays a big roll in the losses.

Not sure what is even debatable here.

Are people actually saying the postseason turnovers are ok as long as he puts up lots of yards and mixes in some TDs?

[bradshaw2ben]

Ok, I just glanced Tom Brady’s stats.

And while I know what point you were attempting to make B2B, you ended up just reinforcing mine.

When Brady turns it over his losses go up. He plays clean he wins.

Brady has also been to ummmm 3 out of the past 4 SBs and win 2 of them.

Ben hasn’t been to a SB in 7 years and hasn’t won one in a decade.

Please don’t compare the two.

Ben’s postseason stats are inflated by early in career Ben where he protected the ball.

Today’s Ben will sling it all around the field and rack up yardage.

Unfortunately he also turns it over at a rate higher than his counterparts which plays a big roll in the losses.

Not sure what is even debatable here.

Are people actually saying the postseason turnovers are ok as long as he puts up lots of yards and mixes in some TDs?

That was TERRY BRADSHAW, not Tom Brady. You can determine what it means.

More importantly, it's a myth that Ben is playing any differently in the postseason than he was before 2009. I would argue that the lack of competent defensive performances is the thing that changed. i.e.: count me in on the "he is who he is" bandwagon. And how many times has the offensive game plan in a playoff game been free of having to protect the D, especially in the 1st half of games? The first half of:

CIN 2005
IND 2005
DEN 2005
SD 2008?
MIA 2016

When you are consistently put in more difficult situations because your goals are complex, my guess is you're going to have to take more risks to make plays.

[955876]

When you are consistently put in more difficult situations because your goals are complex, my guess is you're going to have to take more risks to make plays.

If you are going to make the arguement that our coaches don’t do the best job of putting their QB in the best of situations and at times make his job harder not easier then we are in full agreement.

[JPPT1974]

Really if Bell skips training camp, then Big Ben will have to do the work all by himself. And to not have Bell in camp would really kind of hurt the team.

[955876]

More importantly, it's a myth that Ben is playing any differently in the postseason than he was before 2009.

Except for the fact he throws more INTs vs his counterparts now than he did pre 2009.

That’s different is it not?

We could argue the reasons why but then I could argue those reasons often times matter not.

Was Ben forced to make a 3rd & 11 throw from his own EZ in the first quarter of a game we are already down 7-0 because he knows his D is bad and the game plan stinks?

Because that is essentially what you said in your last post.

To me, knowing those things SHOULD flick the switch that he needs to play a cleaner game himself. Not a risky more aggressive one.

You don’t force throws backed up against your own EZ in the first quarter of a playoff game because your D is bad and you feel you need to compensate.

Now you are down 14.

[tbsteel]

I would describe Ben's play in his last two playoff games (at New England and home against Jax) as outstanding.

I really don't get the unending criticism of the Jacksonville game. He was playing against the best defense and best secondary in the NFL, in a game where his offensive line was getting its collective ass kicked up front, and he accounted for over 500 yards and 6 freaking touchdowns (yes, I'm going to count the Bell lateral as a passing TD since it was essentially a passing play).

The INT was a tremendous play, but it didn't give an excuse to just let the D lay down and give up an easy TD. Championship teams step up in the red zone and ours was horrid that day. The fumble? Okay, tough play, tough break with the way the ball bounced and how that went down. But my god, we got that back and then some. And then some. And then a little more on top. The Jags loss was a failure by the coaching staff to have the team ready to play and a complete and utter failure by the defense. Ben, AB, Brown, McDonald, Bell, and to an extent Bryant were absolutely outstanding.

[955876]

His play was outstanding. More often than not it is.

I just don’t think it’s asking too much however for a 14 year vet to know when to hold’em and know when to fold’em.

To know when to walk away and when to run.

[Scunge]

For me, Ben's playoff career breaks down like this: the 10-2 record before the Super Bowl against Green Bay...

...and then the loss to Green Bay and the resulting 3-6 record from that loss until now.

That Jacksonville game and the yards and TDs he put up, man, it really skews the numbers he has for his last 9 games in which he has gone 3-6.

Before that Jax one and done loss, in Ben's last 8 playoff games, he threw 8 TDs and 9 INTs. 6 of those games he threw just 1 TD. 2 of those games he threw 0 TDs.

Again, I am more disappointed in Ben and the offense than I can ever be for the defense. Blaming the defense is ridiculous and it is too cheap and easy.

The offense has the supposedly HOFers like Ben, Brown and Bell and they can't carry the team? Can't outscore the opposing team?

Ben's first 12 games before the GB Super Bowl, in which he was 10-2, they scored 26.9 points per game, and never, ever, failed to score more than 20 points.

Ben's last 9 games, he is 3-6, and they are scoring 22.9 points per game, and have 5 games in which they scored under 20 points, they have had games where they scored just 18, 18, 17, 17, and 16 points for a damn playoff game!!! Even had a game in which they had 6 damn field goals.

And somehow it is the defense's fault that we don't have more championships? Ben, and the offense, are all woefully underperforming, they are supposed to be littered with Hall of Famers and Pro Bowlers and they can't routinely score over 20 points a game?

I will just have to agree to disagree but I can't see how anybody can defend Ben and the offense these past 9 games, just unacceptable, they need to step up their game.

Remember Rocky 3? Rocky had become too 'civilized' he got too enamored with the trappings of fame, fortune, etc. Gets his ass kicked by Clubber Lang. Then Apollo Creed comes in and helps Rock get the 'eye of the tiger' back. For me that is what the Green Bay Super Bowl loss was for Ben and the offense. What it has been for the past 9 playoff games, that 3-6 record.

Maybe Randy Fitchner can be Apollo Creed and help Ben get the 'eye of the tiger' back. Maybe the offense can get to where it should be, routinely scoring, averaging 30 points a game. All I know is that Ben and the offense have lost their mojo and it has been gone for a long time in the post season.

[franco32]

So it is 100% Ben's fault that the Jax INT clanged off of McDonald's hands and Jack made a great play (after a great pressure from Malik Jackson)?

It is Ben's fault that Coates drops a TD, Coby Hamilton runs out of bounds on a TD, and Hamilton drops another TD vs New England?

I, too, would like Ben to be cleaner with the football, but we are talking about him being put in some horrendous play calling situations. Then you exacerbate the situation with the defense putting you in holes. Add in some drops. Add in some injuries to Bell and AB over the last few years in the playoffs. It's not so simple a picture at that point.

[Kodiak]

I just don’t think it’s asking too much however for a 14 year vet to know when to hold’em and know when to fold’em.

Because 9 times out of 10 he makes the play.

Throwing away those 9 other plays just doesn't work with this coaching staff. I think Ben playing the way you argue that he should results in a much less underwhelming Ben still losing.

Ben being Ben gives this team a chance to win when the coaches aren't complete morons and the defense doesn't suck rat ass. But, shit, he's not God.

[alancac98]

For me it's simple, even though the offence gave away 14 points, they rebounded and put 42 points on the board. that should be enough to secure a win against any team. However, the defence was unable to stop the Jags when the team needed a stop, particularly in the 4th quarter. Just one stop, and the Steelers could have won the game, but every time the offence got close, the Jags rammed it right down our D's throats for a TD.

[bradshaw2ben]

So it is 100% Ben's fault that the Jax INT clanged off of McDonald's hands and Jack made a great play (after a great pressure from Malik Jackson)?

It is Ben's fault that Coates drops a TD, Coby Hamilton runs out of bounds on a TD, and Hamilton drops another TD vs New England?

I, too, would like Ben to be cleaner with the football, but we are talking about him being put in some horrendous play calling situations. Then you exacerbate the situation with the defense putting you in holes. Add in some drops. Add in some injuries to Bell and AB over the last few years in the playoffs. It's not so simple a picture at that point.

You forgot Jesse James not being able to put his head down for one yard, and the fact that the offense with “all that talent” had no Bell Bryant and a cast of hot garbage at #2 RB, #2 & 3 WR, and TE.

[Ice]

So it is 100% Ben's fault that the Jax INT clanged off of McDonald's hands and Jack made a great play (after a great pressure from Malik Jackson)?

It is Ben's fault that Coates drops a TD, Coby Hamilton runs out of bounds on a TD, and Hamilton drops another TD vs New England?

I, too, would like Ben to be cleaner with the football, but we are talking about him being put in some horrendous play calling situations. Then you exacerbate the situation with the defense putting you in holes. Add in some drops. Add in some injuries to Bell and AB over the last few years in the playoffs. It's not so simple a picture at that point.

You forgot Jesse James not being able to put his head down for one yard, and the fact that the offense with “all that talent” had no Bell Bryant and a cast of hot garbage at #2 RB, #2 & 3 WR, and TE.

100%. Between an in several cases terminal lack of depth (whether Oline, somewhat mitigated by Munch's ability to coach em up, or the above-mentioned positions) and terrible offensive playcalling/strategy (you can't do the Haley Special iso-playcalling, hoping for playmakers to make a play, consistently when you are down to one, maybe two superstars and a otherwise depth/subpar players), the "great offense full of stars and Hall of Famers" has been considerably less than that in a lot of key and playoff games.

Also, when you consider the draft and FA capital (doesn't necessarily reflect performance, just money/picks spent) used on defense in the last several years, the reasons to be frustrated on that side of the ball become more apparent.

[R_S]

Take away those 14 points and the D was still god awful.

28 net points from my QB....I'll take that every day. And it would have been more if the damn defense makes a stop, or at least holds them to a FG after even ONE of the turnovers. Or go get a turnover or two yourself.

Jesus christ, how can you not blame the defense for that loss?

I was at the goddamn game. Ben put the team in a hole but he dug them out with perfect passes. He dropped dimes all over the place that second half. The team would come within a score, the crowd was excited and optimistic then the Jags would score in like 5 plays. The place deflated again. that was the theme of the 2nd half.

Lets not forget that the one interception was also just a ridiculously good play by the defender.

Ben fucked up early, then played out of his mind. The defense fucked up consistently, from start to finish.

[R_S]

For me, Ben's playoff career breaks down like this: the 10-2 record before the Super Bowl against Green Bay...

...and then the loss to Green Bay and the resulting 3-6 record from that loss until now.

That Jacksonville game and the yards and TDs he put up, man, it really skews the numbers he has for his last 9 games in which he has gone 3-6.

Before that Jax one and done loss, in Ben's last 8 playoff games, he threw 8 TDs and 9 INTs. 6 of those games he threw just 1 TD. 2 of those games he threw 0 TDs.

Again, I am more disappointed in Ben and the offense than I can ever be for the defense. Blaming the defense is ridiculous and it is too cheap and easy.

The offense has the supposedly HOFers like Ben, Brown and Bell and they can't carry the team? Can't outscore the opposing team?

Ben's first 12 games before the GB Super Bowl, in which he was 10-2, they scored 26.9 points per game, and never, ever, failed to score more than 20 points.

Ben's last 9 games, he is 3-6, and they are scoring 22.9 points per game, and have 5 games in which they scored under 20 points, they have had games where they scored just 18, 18, 17, 17, and 16 points for a damn playoff game!!! Even had a game in which they had 6 damn field goals.

And somehow it is the defense's fault that we don't have more championships? Ben, and the offense, are all woefully underperforming, they are supposed to be littered with Hall of Famers and Pro Bowlers and they can't routinely score over 20 points a game?

I will just have to agree to disagree but I can't see how anybody can defend Ben and the offense these past 9 games, just unacceptable, they need to step up their game.

Remember Rocky 3? Rocky had become too 'civilized' he got too enamored with the trappings of fame, fortune, etc. Gets his ass kicked by Clubber Lang. Then Apollo Creed comes in and helps Rock get the 'eye of the tiger' back. For me that is what the Green Bay Super Bowl loss was for Ben and the offense. What it has been for the past 9 playoff games, that 3-6 record.

Maybe Randy Fitchner can be Apollo Creed and help Ben get the 'eye of the tiger' back. Maybe the offense can get to where it should be, routinely scoring, averaging 30 points a game. All I know is that Ben and the offense have lost their mojo and it has been gone for a long time in the post season.

Scunge, I'm normally in total agreement with your posts. If you aren't happy with Ben and the offenses performance the last 9 playoff games i'm not going to disagree. But the offense put out the Jax game, in the tune of 42 points. You can't lump them all together. 42 points should be a win every game.

[bradshaw2ben]

Both times the Steelers had it down to a 7 point game and had the ball, they stopped attacking. I'm not really sure what Haley was thinking.

Down 7, PIT gets the ball back w 6min left in Q3. Three pass plays and–boom boom boom– we move from own 19 to JAX 40. Suddenly, we take the air out of the ball-- run up the middle and a RB screen that defense was sitting on. 3rd and long doesn't connect.

Then the defense makes a second stop in a row... only time they did that all year vs JAX, I think--PIT gets it back, again down by 7, beginning of Q4. Here are the playcalls:

Bell up the middle, Bell right tackle, Bell up the middle for no gain. Eschew the QB sneak and 4th down pass to JJSS... no DPI called.

It sure seemed last year that when they opened up and attacked, Ben and the offense were largely magical. Then they'd get into this attrition/need to run to check the box thing and it would just suck the air out of the balloon. They did it vs. NE, 1st half of Indy, part of the Baltimore game, etc. It's why I'm so hopeful about this team. If they just make a few better playcalls-- ones that have a feel for the game and that reinforce attacking-- I think this team put a lot on tape after week 6 last year on which to build.

[Kodiak]

Both times the Steelers had it down to a 7 point game and had the ball, they stopped attacking. I'm not really sure what Haley was thinking.

Because EVERY opportunity they get, Haley and Tomlin revert back to that ball-control, win TOP offensive mentality. Best defense is a good offense, etc....your defense isn't getting beat if it isn't on the field.

And just about every time they flail and dig a hole trying to do that, and the handcuffs come off then the offensive lights it up. Tomlin just can't help himself - he always goes back to attrition football. Fewer possessions, longer drives....the exact opposite of what the offense is best built for.

[bradshaw2ben]

Both times the Steelers had it down to a 7 point game and had the ball, they stopped attacking. I'm not really sure what Haley was thinking.

Because EVERY opportunity they get, Haley and Tomlin revert back to that ball-control, win TOP offensive mentality. Best defense is a good offense, etc....your defense isn't getting beat if it isn't on the field.

And just about every time they flail and dig a hole trying to do that, and the handcuffs come off then the offensive lights it up. Tomlin just can't help himself - he always goes back to attrition football. Fewer possessions, longer drives....the exact opposite of what the offense is best built for.

EXCEPT... Tomlin didn't do it with the previous coordinator. At least not to this extent. Maybe he even has a tendency towards it but needs an OC to pull in the other direction.

[Legacy User]

I am very hopeful that Fich proves to be the anti-Haley.

[Gonzo]

Both times the Steelers had it down to a 7 point game and had the ball, they stopped attacking. I'm not really sure what Haley was thinking.

Because EVERY opportunity they get, Haley and Tomlin revert back to that ball-control, win TOP offensive mentality. Best defense is a good offense, etc....your defense isn't getting beat if it isn't on the field.

And just about every time they flail and dig a hole trying to do that, and the handcuffs come off then the offensive lights it up. Tomlin just can't help himself - he always goes back to attrition football. Fewer possessions, longer drives....the exact opposite of what the offense is best built for.

EXCEPT... Tomlin didn't do it with the previous coordinator. At least not to this extent. Maybe he even has a tendency towards it but needs an OC to pull in the other direction.

Yes he did. There was all sorts of talk about forced and proper run mix that everyone blamed arians for and in the end arians was supposedly gone in part for having Ben throw downfield too often. Tomlinson tape is clear.

[bradshaw2ben]

I’m re-watching the 2009’season right now
And your assertion is not consistent with the facts.

After AR2 made his statement about “running better” there was some forcing, but still nothing like last few years.

P.S.: Ben is SO much better now than he was then. His accuracy and quick game is light years ahead.

[Kodiak]

I’m re-watching the 2009’season right now
And your assertion is not consistent with the facts.

BA never knew how to call the run. But it was painfully obvious he had a targeted number of run calls to hit. His offense was more aggressive and more vertical, but he was still a slave of Tomlin's bullshit attrition ball.