StillerInCT wrote: I like that we're getting with the times and aren't afraid to start rookies right off the bat.
Pabst wrote:StillerInCT wrote: I like that we're getting with the times and aren't afraid to start rookies right off the bat.
This is 100% not true and people really need to stop saying it.
TJ Watt, Sean Davis, Javon Hargrave, Ryan Shazier, Jarvis Jones, Leveon Bell (injured for first 3 games), David DeCastro, Marcus Gilbert, and Maurkice Pouncey were all day 1 starters in their rookie campaigns.
Juju was the #1 KR and #3 WR right off the bat.
Artie Burns became a starter halfway thru his rookie season.
Bud Dupree started 5 games his rookie year.
Stephon Tuitt was starting at the end of his rookie year
Mike Wallace was the #3 WR right away.
Why this myth continues to come up I have no idea.
SteelKnife wrote:But the examples you gave are all pretty recent. I don't think SCT meant we're just getting with it this year, but that it's a theme now, and he's glad.
Louis Lipps Service wrote:I'm pretty sure he meant that he's glad we've been doing it more in recent years, not just this year.
Scunge wrote:You can't deny that Aaron Smith did not have a single start his rookie year, or that Troy Polamalu did not have a single start his rookie year.
Scunge wrote:You can't deny that Aaron Smith did not have a single start his rookie year, or that Troy Polamalu did not have a single start his rookie year.
Or that LaMar Woodley only had 68 snaps his rookie year and obviously did not start any games. Or that Keenan Lewis had to wait until his third season before he had one start. Cam Heyward had to wait until his 3rd season before he saw any starts. Brett Keisel had to wait until his 5th season before he started.
Ice wrote:Scunge wrote:You can't deny that Aaron Smith did not have a single start his rookie year, or that Troy Polamalu did not have a single start his rookie year.
Smith and Troy, while HOF caliber players, were not ready to go. Smith, for instance, was a project out of Northern Colorado and a 4th round pick.
Heyward was caught behind Aaron Smith and Brett Kiesel, who, by the way, was also a developmental, later round pick, himself.
Woodley was also caught behind some veteran starters, but made a significant playoff impact early, in limited snaps. Timmons, I believe, did start that year.
Not that I'm disagreeing about the perceived lengthy apprenticeship, but it's situational.
I always thought that the secondary, CB in particular, was where the pine-riding for younger guys was the worst.
SteelKnife wrote:I don't think #3 WR is considered starter.
But the examples you gave are all pretty recent. I don't think SCT meant we're just getting with it this year, but that it's a theme now, and he's glad.
Scunge wrote:But to sit here and tell me that Kevin Henry, Clark Haggans and Ziggy Hood, and that HOF duo of Mike Logan and Brent Alexander, were fending off talented rookies with their superlative play is just ludicrous.
Scunge wrote:And Edmunds will have some less than memorable rookie moments. Jerry Rice had some rough times as a rookie too, but that is the only way you develop and grow, by actually being out on the field and playing. Bill Walsh knew this, he had this philosophy of putting rookies out there and playing them and living with their early mistakes because he knew that they could provide a real push, an advantage to the team at the end of the year and into the playoffs.
Sorry but Burnt Alexander was just terrible and this guy was keeping not just Troy from starting but Chris Hope too? Sorry but that just illustrates my problems with Dick LeBeau so perfectly. Burnt Alexander was a better option to start than both Troy Polamalu and Chris Hope?
Scunge wrote:Bill Walsh knew this, he had this philosophy of putting rookies out there and playing them and living with their early mistakes because he knew that they could provide a real push, an advantage to the team at the end of the year and into the playoffs.
Pabst wrote:Joe Montana sat behind Steve DeBerg for his first season and a half.
Kodiak wrote:Pabst wrote:Joe Montana sat behind Steve DeBerg for his first season and a half.
To be fair, Ben pretty much shattered the conventional wisdom that rookie QB's don't start.
Granted, I don't think the rules today really afford the luxury to sit a QB for 2-3 years. But the trend was already in place before the last CBA slotted everyone.
I don't know if it's because the college passing game got so much more advanced, or if "rookie QB's don't start" was just a belief that emerged and then went unchallenged until someone wrecked Tommy Maddox' arm.
Scunge wrote:Pabst, I think most naturally think of the defense and the rookies having a hard time becoming starers under the Dick LeBeau reign. Yeah, it started to change at the end of LeBeau's run but that was only because his vets all were up in age, or injured and Rooney was leading the push to get the young players on the field faster.
You can't deny that Aaron Smith did not have a single start his rookie year, or that Troy Polamalu did not have a single start his rookie year.
Or that LaMar Woodley only had 68 snaps his rookie year and obviously did not start any games. Or that Keenan Lewis had to wait until his third season before he had one start. Cam Heyward had to wait until his 3rd season before he saw any starts. Brett Keisel had to wait until his 5th season before he started.
There was a time when there was a very real apprenticeship that LeBeau believed in and rookies had a hard time starting or finding playing time. There were exceptions of course and he was probably overruled on some players from up above. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern NFL in terms of getting rookies on the field faster. I guess some can deny that happening but I remember Rooney being interviewed and frustrated by it and I think ultimately that was one of the things that made it more palatable to Rooney to get rid of LeBeau.
Pabst wrote:Scunge wrote:Bill Walsh knew this, he had this philosophy of putting rookies out there and playing them and living with their early mistakes because he knew that they could provide a real push, an advantage to the team at the end of the year and into the playoffs.
Please apply your same standards to Bill Walsh:
Joe Montana sat behind Steve DeBerg for his first season and a half.
Dwight Clark didn't start in his rookie season.
Guy McIntyre didn't start until his 5th season.
John Taylor didn't start until year #3
You can view all of his draft picks right here.
The 49ers absolutely sucked when Walsh got there. Of course they started alot of rookies early on. But the same things you seem to be knocking the Steelers FO for also apply to the 49ers in the 80s.
Scunge wrote:Pabst we are talking about Dick LeBeau and how the defensive prospects, the young draft picks mostly sat and had to serve the apprenticeship. What does brining offensive prospects into the conversation have anything to do with it?
Scunge wrote:In terms of the defense being so great when Aaron Smith, LaMar Woodley, Chris Hope, Troy Poalmalu were drafted and that is why they had to sit?? Really?
Scunge wrote:And yes, before somebody pipes up with, well LeBeau wasn't even coaching with the Steeler in some of these instances, yes, that is true but the Steelers still followed through with much of his principles and defense and the apprenticeship, the risk aversion, etc. He left, went to Cincy and then came back to us and it was like nothing had changed at all in that time. Even now we are still struggling to break free of his defense and his long shadow.
