Wk 17 Steelers/2019 recap: All's Well That Ends

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blu
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Re: Wk 17 Steelers/2019 recap: All's Well That Ends

Post by blu » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:51 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:11 am
As it often is with backups/next man up: it works for a while, and then they hit the wall. The backups revert to the mean, the other guys on the team who raised their game to compensate can't sustain it forever. When those two lines on the graph merge, the season is over. They intersected sometime in the Buffalo game.
Thanks you for that, it will make the off-season a bit easier.



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Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:26 pm

Orange, making a change just to goose the franchise is the most compelling reason to make a change. The rest is just noise/wishful thinking.

Oh, and since Tomlin always tells the truth at these press conferences:
Dale Lolley @dlolley_pgh
1h
Tomlin: It was a challenging year, but they all are. I haven't spent a lot of time weighing the dust settling. I'll do some self analysis and see where I can get better. ... I believe regardless of how long I've had this job, you have an opportunity to get better. #Steelers #dkps
"Like Coach Tomlin always says, the slandered is the slandered. –@Pgh_Opie"

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Post by W&M_Steeler » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:03 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:24 am
I think they were on their way to rebuilding the D enough to let Ben and offense carry them forward... and then Shazier went down. That wasn't just losing a piece, it was losing THE centerpiece of everything they did on D. They also prematurely lost Woodley and Jason Worilds. 3 playoff wins while you're rebuilding for most of that is a testament to how good Ben is and, to be fair, how solid a coach Tomlin is. They probably win even more if injuries hadn't decimated them seemingly every year by December/January. The best teams they had in that stretch have been missing either Bell, AB, Shazier, or a healthy Ben by the end of the season. Makes it tough to win playoff games.
Great Recap article. Thank you, and thank you for your time and dedication to giving us this site.

I also agree with your quote above. The Steelers' prolonged defensive rebuild, coupled with untimely injuries to key offensive players, were the primary causes to the Steelers' lack of playoff success over the past decade.

2011- the Steelers were old and injured coming into the Tebow game, and they lost several other players during that game. 2011 was the end of the road for the 00s team.

2012-2013 were rebuilding years as most of the key players from the 00s team retired. The 2012 and 2013 Steelers just weren't that talented overall, particularly in 2012.

2014- Bell injured in week 17. Due to roster mismanagement (starting with the release of Blount), the Steelers were forced to sign Ben Tate off the street and start him at running back in the Wild Card game against the Ravens.

2015- Bell was lost for the season, D'Angelo Williams was injured in week 17 against the Browns, Ben and AB were injured in the Wild Card game against the Bengals, yet the Steelers had a fighting chance against the eventual Super Bowl Champion Broncos until Toussaint fumbled in the 4th quarter while the Steelers were driving with the lead.

2016- The WR and TE positions were messes (Bryant suspended, Wheaton injured and not very good, Ladarius Green not being able to play) but the Steelers still made the AFCC game (in which they started practice-squad level players like Cobi Hamilton). Bell was injured in the first quarter. On defense, Cam Heyward was lost for the season in mid-November.

2017- For the first and only time, all of the "Killer Bs" are able to play in a playoff game, with JuJu also in the mix. Plus, the Steelers managed to secure a bye week for once! The Steelers score 42 points in the playoff game, but they ultimately lose mostly because the post-Shazier defense was a train wreck (exacerbated by the James Harrison - Joey Porter feud).

2018- A debacle, and Tomlin's worst coaching job. The late season collapse was pure sloppiness and inexcusable. The Steelers should have won the Oakland and Denver games at least. But the Killer Bs of the mid-decade were no more, with Bell holding out, Bryant traded, and AB going insane behind the scenes. Even Boswell devolved into a headcase that year! Plus, the D was restarting its rebuild in the wake of Shazier's injury. The 2018 team was not as talented as the 2017 team.

2019- The offense already lacked talent, and injuries took away whatever potency it might have had. The Steelers fielded a practice squad offense most of the season. 8-8 is about as good as could have been reasonably anticipated, even with the dramatic improvement of the Defense caused by the acquisition of Minkah, the development of Watt and Dupree, the solidification of the CB position, etc.

To me, Tomlin's biggest fault is allowing the let down games versus terrible opponents. Had they not lost to bottom feeders, the Steelers could have at least made the playoffs in 2012 and 2013. Maybe 2014-16 would have been more successful had the Steelers secured a bye week. And, of course, the 2018 was full of inexplicable losses that ended up keeping the Steelers out of the playoffs altogether.

Tomlin also deserves a share of the blame for the flawed defensive rebuild- the prime draft picks devoted to defense from 2013-2016 either ended up busting (Jarvis, Artie Burns, Senquez Golson), disappointing (Davis) or developing very slowly (Dupree). It's not Tomlin's fault that the best defensive player taken during that span- Shazier- was lost to injury, though.

The decision to not find a capable back-up running back after cutting Blount in 2014 was coaching malpractice and indefensible.

Despite all those problems, though, I think that ill-timed key injuries / suspensions prevented the Steelers from living up to their talent during the Killer Bs period. Bell was setting the world on fire in 2014. The Steelers would have been a much tougher out that year with him starting in the playoffs instead of Ben fucking Tate. If the Steelers had Bell, or at least Williams, for the 2015 playoffs, they would have been well positioned for a Super Bowl run. Maybe the Steelers' O would have been more formidable in 2016 had Martavis stayed clean (or had Bell played the entire AFCC game). And who knows how far the 2017 Steelers could have gone with Shazier in the middle instead of Sean Spence?

Though Tomlin is far from perfect- I was calling for his head at the end of last season- I think that he is only partly to blame for the lack of post-season success this decade. The Steelers suffered extremely significant and ill-timed injuries from 2014-17. It was a tough ask for the Steelers to overcome a bad defense and an injury-depleted offense those years.

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Post by SteelerDayTrader » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:28 pm

I think the real big picture is this......

Many seem to think the Steelers and Tomlin are entirely 2 different entities. IMO Tomlin embraces the role he signed up for which is public face and mouthpiece of the team and part of the decision making team which boils down to Rooney Colbert Tomlin.

I doubt Rooney has much clue about football in specifics but I would bet he has some very direct ideas about how he wants his team to look and operate on the field. My guess is if those broad parameters are fulfilled he tends to look at the $$$ bottom line and if thats at least OK the football side is given ALOT of leeway.

I think Colbert kinda straddles the $$$ side and the football side in all operations with his main job being scouting and narrowing down the draft.
I doubt he has much clue about dealing with the players/coaches on a day to day basis or has much input into scheme plays etc.

I think Tomlin oversees the coaching staff and gives the staff alot of leeway if Rooney's and by extension his vision of the team seems to be taking shape or at least outlined

The Steelers move slowly. When things arent good its easy to see that as a huge problem and it most definitely is. However the other side of that coin is that same moving slowly pays alot of dividends over the long haul and they usually arent easy to see even when things are good.

I think Rooney would rather go 9-7 10-6 8-8 8-8 11-5 9-7 10-6 7-9 etc etc than ever suffer 4-12. Im positive Colbert and Tomlin have bought in wholeheartedly on that approach from the beginning

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Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:36 pm

Great post WNM. The point is: it isn’t just injuries and it’s not just Roster management and it’s not just coaching and it’s all of those things, but I would say injuries really derailed things.

The thing about the late season collapse last season... If Boswell simply makes FGs like an average NFL field goal kicker, they win 2 1/2 more games. They get a first round bye. The margin between winning and losing in the NFL is just that slim. That makes it even more remarkable that the coach/quarterback/organization can win so much
"Like Coach Tomlin always says, the slandered is the slandered. –@Pgh_Opie"

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Post by fractalsteel » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:58 pm

B2B, thanks for these write ups. They have been excellent.

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Post by W&M_Steeler » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:11 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:36 pm
Great post WNM. The point is: it isn’t just injuries and it’s not just Roster management and it’s not just kosher and it’s all of those things, but I would say injuries really derailed things...

The margin between winning and losing in the NFL is just that slim. That makes it even more remarkable that the coach/quarterback/organization can win so much

That is true, but Tomlin & Co. still cannot escape all blame for failures even in the injury-shortened seasons. Tomlin teams' consistent inability to beat bad teams is a huge deficiency that mars Tomlin's career. Take 2014, for example- how in the world did that team lose at home to a Bucs team starting a rookie Mike Glennon? The Bucs went 2-14 that year! If the 2014 Steelers had beaten the (ultimately) 2-14 Bucs and the 4-12 Jets, then they would have finished 13-3 with the number 1 seed instead of 11-5 and the 3rd seed. Maybe Bell isn't even playing in that Week 17 game against the Bengals and doesn't get injured.

Ultimately, I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame for the disappointing decade on Tomlin, as bad injury luck and some poor defensive drafting played significant roles in the underachievement. But it is possible that things could have played out a bit better had Tomlin & Co. simply won the games they should have won these past 10 years.

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Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:06 pm

IIRC Tomlin has a top 5 nfl record vs teams that finish with fewer than 8 wins, and if you subtract the years where his own team was 8-8; I think I saw a stat where he was 2nd, not far behind Belichick.
"Like Coach Tomlin always says, the slandered is the slandered. –@Pgh_Opie"

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Post by W&M_Steeler » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:03 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:06 pm
IIRC Tomlin has a top 5 nfl record vs teams that finish with fewer than 8 wins, and if you subtract the years where his own team was 8-8; I think I saw a stat where he was 2nd, not far behind Belichick.

That might be true- Tomlin teams haven't laid too many eggs against the Browns or the Bengals, and those are the bad teams Tomlin has played most often during his tenure here. I think familiarity and rivalry keep the Steelers from relaxing too much when they play those teams (although the Steelers did lose to the 5-11 Ravens twice in 2015).

I'd like to see the cross-tabs on losses to teams outside of the division that finish 6-10 or worse, though. Losses to the Broncos and Raiders cost the Steelers last year, the loss to the 5-11 Bears hurt in 2017, losses to the Bucs and Jets cost the Steelers in 2014. Winning those games could have changed the season. The Steelers would have won the AFCN in 2018 had they beaten the Broncos and Raiders, would have been the #1 seed in 2017 had they beaten the Bears, and would have been the #1 seed in 2014 had they beaten the Bucs and Jets. Tomlin isn't the only coach to have those types of horrendous losses (Belichick just had one against the Bengals that deprived the Pats of a bye week this year), but he has had too many over the past several seasons and they have proven costly.

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Post by El Kabong » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:03 am

W&M_Steeler wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:03 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:24 am
I think they were on their way to rebuilding the D enough to let Ben and offense carry them forward... and then Shazier went down. That wasn't just losing a piece, it was losing THE centerpiece of everything they did on D. They also prematurely lost Woodley and Jason Worilds. 3 playoff wins while you're rebuilding for most of that is a testament to how good Ben is and, to be fair, how solid a coach Tomlin is. They probably win even more if injuries hadn't decimated them seemingly every year by December/January. The best teams they had in that stretch have been missing either Bell, AB, Shazier, or a healthy Ben by the end of the season. Makes it tough to win playoff games.
Great Recap article. Thank you, and thank you for your time and dedication to giving us this site.

I also agree with your quote above. The Steelers' prolonged defensive rebuild, coupled with untimely injuries to key offensive players, were the primary causes to the Steelers' lack of playoff success over the past decade.

2011- the Steelers were old and injured coming into the Tebow game, and they lost several other players during that game. 2011 was the end of the road for the 00s team.

2012-2013 were rebuilding years as most of the key players from the 00s team retired. The 2012 and 2013 Steelers just weren't that talented overall, particularly in 2012.

2014- Bell injured in week 17. Due to roster mismanagement (starting with the release of Blount), the Steelers were forced to sign Ben Tate off the street and start him at running back in the Wild Card game against the Ravens.

2015- Bell was lost for the season, D'Angelo Williams was injured in week 17 against the Browns, Ben and AB were injured in the Wild Card game against the Bengals, yet the Steelers had a fighting chance against the eventual Super Bowl Champion Broncos until Toussaint fumbled in the 4th quarter while the Steelers were driving with the lead.

2016- The WR and TE positions were messes (Bryant suspended, Wheaton injured and not very good, Ladarius Green not being able to play) but the Steelers still made the AFCC game (in which they started practice-squad level players like Cobi Hamilton). Bell was injured in the first quarter. On defense, Cam Heyward was lost for the season in mid-November.

2017- For the first and only time, all of the "Killer Bs" are able to play in a playoff game, with JuJu also in the mix. Plus, the Steelers managed to secure a bye week for once! The Steelers score 42 points in the playoff game, but they ultimately lose mostly because the post-Shazier defense was a train wreck (exacerbated by the James Harrison - Joey Porter feud).

2018- A debacle, and Tomlin's worst coaching job. The late season collapse was pure sloppiness and inexcusable. The Steelers should have won the Oakland and Denver games at least. But the Killer Bs of the mid-decade were no more, with Bell holding out, Bryant traded, and AB going insane behind the scenes. Even Boswell devolved into a headcase that year! Plus, the D was restarting its rebuild in the wake of Shazier's injury. The 2018 team was not as talented as the 2017 team.

2019- The offense already lacked talent, and injuries took away whatever potency it might have had. The Steelers fielded a practice squad offense most of the season. 8-8 is about as good as could have been reasonably anticipated, even with the dramatic improvement of the Defense caused by the acquisition of Minkah, the development of Watt and Dupree, the solidification of the CB position, etc.

To me, Tomlin's biggest fault is allowing the let down games versus terrible opponents. Had they not lost to bottom feeders, the Steelers could have at least made the playoffs in 2012 and 2013. Maybe 2014-16 would have been more successful had the Steelers secured a bye week. And, of course, the 2018 was full of inexplicable losses that ended up keeping the Steelers out of the playoffs altogether.

Tomlin also deserves a share of the blame for the flawed defensive rebuild- the prime draft picks devoted to defense from 2013-2016 either ended up busting (Jarvis, Artie Burns, Senquez Golson), disappointing (Davis) or developing very slowly (Dupree). It's not Tomlin's fault that the best defensive player taken during that span- Shazier- was lost to injury, though.

The decision to not find a capable back-up running back after cutting Blount in 2014 was coaching malpractice and indefensible.

Despite all those problems, though, I think that ill-timed key injuries / suspensions prevented the Steelers from living up to their talent during the Killer Bs period. Bell was setting the world on fire in 2014. The Steelers would have been a much tougher out that year with him starting in the playoffs instead of Ben fucking Tate. If the Steelers had Bell, or at least Williams, for the 2015 playoffs, they would have been well positioned for a Super Bowl run. Maybe the Steelers' O would have been more formidable in 2016 had Martavis stayed clean (or had Bell played the entire AFCC game). And who knows how far the 2017 Steelers could have gone with Shazier in the middle instead of Sean Spence?

Though Tomlin is far from perfect- I was calling for his head at the end of last season- I think that he is only partly to blame for the lack of post-season success this decade. The Steelers suffered extremely significant and ill-timed injuries from 2014-17. It was a tough ask for the Steelers to overcome a bad defense and an injury-depleted offense those years.
A good, fair analysis.

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Post by El Kabong » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:07 am

W&M_Steeler wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:03 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:06 pm
IIRC Tomlin has a top 5 nfl record vs teams that finish with fewer than 8 wins, and if you subtract the years where his own team was 8-8; I think I saw a stat where he was 2nd, not far behind Belichick.

That might be true- Tomlin teams haven't laid too many eggs against the Browns or the Bengals, and those are the bad teams Tomlin has played most often during his tenure here. I think familiarity and rivalry keep the Steelers from relaxing too much when they play those teams (although the Steelers did lose to the 5-11 Ravens twice in 2015).

I'd like to see the cross-tabs on losses to teams outside of the division that finish 6-10 or worse, though. Losses to the Broncos and Raiders cost the Steelers last year, the loss to the 5-11 Bears hurt in 2017, losses to the Bucs and Jets cost the Steelers in 2014. Winning those games could have changed the season. The Steelers would have won the AFCN in 2018 had they beaten the Broncos and Raiders, would have been the #1 seed in 2017 had they beaten the Bears, and would have been the #1 seed in 2014 had they beaten the Bucs and Jets. Tomlin isn't the only coach to have those types of horrendous losses (Belichick just had one against the Bengals that deprived the Pats of a bye week this year), but he has had too many over the past several seasons and they have proven costly.
Don't forget that Belichick just took a loss to the Dolphins at home that cost him a bye.

I agree that it isn't just one thing, but I can't help but think that the defense has sucked for several years and that contributed to losses to bad teams as well as getting into the playoffs and having success once in the playoffs. I seem to remember a number of losses to bad teams happening because the D couldn't stop whatever crappy QB the other team had at the end of the game.

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Post by W&M_Steeler » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:11 am

El Kabong wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:07 am
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:03 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:06 pm
IIRC Tomlin has a top 5 nfl record vs teams that finish with fewer than 8 wins, and if you subtract the years where his own team was 8-8; I think I saw a stat where he was 2nd, not far behind Belichick.

That might be true- Tomlin teams haven't laid too many eggs against the Browns or the Bengals, and those are the bad teams Tomlin has played most often during his tenure here. I think familiarity and rivalry keep the Steelers from relaxing too much when they play those teams (although the Steelers did lose to the 5-11 Ravens twice in 2015).

I'd like to see the cross-tabs on losses to teams outside of the division that finish 6-10 or worse, though. Losses to the Broncos and Raiders cost the Steelers last year, the loss to the 5-11 Bears hurt in 2017, losses to the Bucs and Jets cost the Steelers in 2014. Winning those games could have changed the season. The Steelers would have won the AFCN in 2018 had they beaten the Broncos and Raiders, would have been the #1 seed in 2017 had they beaten the Bears, and would have been the #1 seed in 2014 had they beaten the Bucs and Jets. Tomlin isn't the only coach to have those types of horrendous losses (Belichick just had one against the Bengals that deprived the Pats of a bye week this year), but he has had too many over the past several seasons and they have proven costly.
Don't forget that Belichick just took a loss to the Dolphins at home that cost him a bye.

I agree that it isn't just one thing, but I can't help but think that the defense has sucked for several years and that contributed to losses to bad teams as well as getting into the playoffs and having success once in the playoffs. I seem to remember a number of losses to bad teams happening because the D couldn't stop whatever crappy QB the other team had at the end of the game.
Yes, I mentioned that in my last post. The Pat's loss to the Bengals last week with a bye week on the line was horrendous. We would be crucifying Tomlin if the Steelers lost in that situation, and rightly so. Maybe Belichick and Brady are starting to lose their mojo (God I hope so).

As far as the indefensible losses to really bad teams, those tended to be all around slop fests- turnovers, porous defense, shitty special teams, tons of penalties. I don't think the Steelers lost any true shoot-outs to shitty teams Mike Glennon has maybe 6 wins in his NFL career, and two have come against play-off bound Steelers teams. It's such a bizarre quirk in Tomlin's record.
Last edited by W&M_Steeler on Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by El Kabong » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:13 am

W&M_Steeler wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:11 am
El Kabong wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:07 am
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:03 pm



That might be true- Tomlin teams haven't laid too many eggs against the Browns or the Bengals, and those are the bad teams Tomlin has played most often during his tenure here. I think familiarity and rivalry keep the Steelers from relaxing too much when they play those teams (although the Steelers did lose to the 5-11 Ravens twice in 2015).

I'd like to see the cross-tabs on losses to teams outside of the division that finish 6-10 or worse, though. Losses to the Broncos and Raiders cost the Steelers last year, the loss to the 5-11 Bears hurt in 2017, losses to the Bucs and Jets cost the Steelers in 2014. Winning those games could have changed the season. The Steelers would have won the AFCN in 2018 had they beaten the Broncos and Raiders, would have been the #1 seed in 2017 had they beaten the Bears, and would have been the #1 seed in 2014 had they beaten the Bucs and Jets. Tomlin isn't the only coach to have those types of horrendous losses (Belichick just had one against the Bengals that deprived the Pats of a bye week this year), but he has had too many over the past several seasons and they have proven costly.
Don't forget that Belichick just took a loss to the Dolphins at home that cost him a bye.

I agree that it isn't just one thing, but I can't help but think that the defense has sucked for several years and that contributed to losses to bad teams as well as getting into the playoffs and having success once in the playoffs. I seem to remember a number of losses to bad teams happening because the D couldn't stop whatever crappy QB the other team had at the end of the game.
Yes, I mentioned that in my last post. The Pat's loss to the Bengals last week with a bye week on the line was horrendous. We would be crucifying Tomlin if the Steelers lost in that situation, and rightly so. Maybe Belichick and Brady are starting to lose their mojo (God I hope so).
Sorry, read too fast. And I hope too this is the beginning of the end for Brady and Belichick.

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Post by Orangesteel » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:49 am

W&M_Steeler wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:11 am
El Kabong wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:07 am
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:03 pm



That might be true- Tomlin teams haven't laid too many eggs against the Browns or the Bengals, and those are the bad teams Tomlin has played most often during his tenure here. I think familiarity and rivalry keep the Steelers from relaxing too much when they play those teams (although the Steelers did lose to the 5-11 Ravens twice in 2015).

I'd like to see the cross-tabs on losses to teams outside of the division that finish 6-10 or worse, though. Losses to the Broncos and Raiders cost the Steelers last year, the loss to the 5-11 Bears hurt in 2017, losses to the Bucs and Jets cost the Steelers in 2014. Winning those games could have changed the season. The Steelers would have won the AFCN in 2018 had they beaten the Broncos and Raiders, would have been the #1 seed in 2017 had they beaten the Bears, and would have been the #1 seed in 2014 had they beaten the Bucs and Jets. Tomlin isn't the only coach to have those types of horrendous losses (Belichick just had one against the Bengals that deprived the Pats of a bye week this year), but he has had too many over the past several seasons and they have proven costly.
Don't forget that Belichick just took a loss to the Dolphins at home that cost him a bye.

I agree that it isn't just one thing, but I can't help but think that the defense has sucked for several years and that contributed to losses to bad teams as well as getting into the playoffs and having success once in the playoffs. I seem to remember a number of losses to bad teams happening because the D couldn't stop whatever crappy QB the other team had at the end of the game.
Yes, I mentioned that in my last post. The Pat's loss to the Bengals last week with a bye week on the line was horrendous. We would be crucifying Tomlin if the Steelers lost in that situation, and rightly so. Maybe Belichick and Brady are starting to lose their mojo (God I hope so).

As far as the indefensible losses to really bad teams, those tended to be all around slop fests- turnovers, porous defense, shitty special teams, tons of penalties. I don't think the Steelers lost any true shoot-outs to shitty teams Mike Glennon has maybe 6 wins in his NFL career, and two have come against play-off bound Steelers teams. It's such a bizarre quirk in Tomlin's record.
Well said. The “slop and slather” as many of us call it. 23 straight games with turnovers on offense; which is league worst right now and only a few games (I think 2) from the franchise record.

You’ve done a great job elaborating what frustrates me. As was said, in the current NFL, the games come down to a final play (Dolphins @ Pats) or about an inch and a half (49ers @ Seahawks). Bad teams can beat good teams, but for the lost part if you clean up penalties and turnovers, teams with more talent will win.

Tomlin needs to be better at that, period. There are issues on this team from talent to scheme and everything in between. The guy just needs to be better at what he can control. If his comments today in the presser weren’t complete bullshit, I guess it is on his mind. I think that he even thinks he knows he’s not completely safe from getting canned. If Ben is 100 percent next August, next year is a big year for many who wear the black and gold.

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Post by PennyBacker » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:34 am

B2B - I appreciate the your accomplishment of chronicling the season and for making succinct points about the team. (Respect)

This game was not very fun. It reminded me of the last time the Steelers played the Ravens with a milestone rushing record on the line - and how they got run over then in 2003 the final game of the season by Jamal Lewis on his way to 2,000 yards. But, that offseason turned out to be an excellent one with the drafting of Ben Roethlisberger, and brighter days were certainly just around the corner in 2004. So I am going to try to keep the faith and BELIEVE here.

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Post by pitjax » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:36 pm

SteelerDayTrader wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:28 pm
I think the real big picture is this......

Many seem to think the Steelers and Tomlin are entirely 2 different entities. IMO Tomlin embraces the role he signed up for which is public face and mouthpiece of the team and part of the decision making team which boils down to Rooney Colbert Tomlin.

I doubt Rooney has much clue about football in specifics but I would bet he has some very direct ideas about how he wants his team to look and operate on the field. My guess is if those broad parameters are fulfilled he tends to look at the $$$ bottom line and if thats at least OK the football side is given ALOT of leeway.

I think Colbert kinda straddles the $$$ side and the football side in all operations with his main job being scouting and narrowing down the draft.
I doubt he has much clue about dealing with the players/coaches on a day to day basis or has much input into scheme plays etc.

I think Tomlin oversees the coaching staff and gives the staff alot of leeway if Rooney's and by extension his vision of the team seems to be taking shape or at least outlined

The Steelers move slowly. When things arent good its easy to see that as a huge problem and it most definitely is. However the other side of that coin is that same moving slowly pays alot of dividends over the long haul and they usually arent easy to see even when things are good.

I think Rooney would rather go 9-7 10-6 8-8 8-8 11-5 9-7 10-6 7-9 etc etc than ever suffer 4-12. Im positive Colbert and Tomlin have bought in wholeheartedly on that approach from the beginning
I have been a guest for several years (through all the changes and downtimes). I just wanted to say that DayTrader has it right. His analysis is spot on and one of the best I have read. I know B2B is usually excellent in his analysis, but I would pick DayTrader as #1.

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Post by Old School » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:34 pm

Coach Tomlin's comment..."self analysis" merely lips moving, his specialty. After these 13 years when did he demonstrate growth season to season? Game management, decisions getting better? Game prep? Overall preparedness? Discipline on field and off?

A fixed mindset performing self analysis is theoretically incapable of achieving the same results / outcome as a growth mindset. The Steelers are trapped in a cycle of mediocrity. Chuck was an iconoclast, shattered the business model. Steelers need that again.

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Post by SteelerDayTrader » Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:51 pm

Old School wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:34 pm
Coach Tomlin's comment..."self analysis" merely lips moving, his specialty. After these 13 years when did he demonstrate growth season to season? Game management, decisions getting better? Game prep? Overall preparedness? Discipline on field and off?

A fixed mindset performing self analysis is theoretically incapable of achieving the same results / outcome as a growth mindset. The Steelers are trapped in a cycle of mediocrity. Chuck was an iconoclast, shattered the business model. Steelers need that again.
My big picture take on Tomlin is this:

1. He kept the Steelers at Lombardi competitive level from 2007 - 2011. Went to 2 Super Bowls. Won 1
2. Keeps team to focused and competitive through 2 year rebulid in '12 and '13
3. 2014 the Steelers are back to being a Lombardi contender through 2017.
4. Steelers lose their key cog and most dynamic defender since Troy; 1st rd draft pick Shazier.
5. 2018 they go 9-6-1. Shazier's absence is wholly evident on the defense. Bell goes ape shit. AB's warts show signs of infection all season finally resulting in his turn to go ape shit
6. Despite losing 2 of the top 10 players in the NFL and probably realizing early 3 out of the top 10 arent going to be able to live up to what they could be Tomlin keeps team focused and makes never before seen in Steeler history moves in the draft and in trades during the season to mitigate losing 3 potential HOF level talents in less than a year that were totally unplanned for and not seen in the history of the NFL before.
7. AB's bullshit blows up. Tomlin keeps his cool playing his hand full of nothing. Completely bends over Gruden Mayock and the Raiders despite being dealt his cards face up that hand.
8. Tomlin's aging HOF QB goes down for the season. Still keeps team focused and finishes 8-8 despite the worst QB play in the NFL in several years.

I wish Tomlin had won 10 Super Bowls by now. That kind of thing doesnt happen though unless you cheat on a historic and obvious level along with being the largest $$$ generator in a sham entertainment reality show masquerading as a legit sporting league.

Tomlin is a damn fine HC in alot of respects. He does have some issues. So do all the other HCs in the league.

The Steelers have had some bad breaks in the Ben/Tomlin era. Shit happens.

Im looking forward to that turning in our favor soon rather than later.

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Post by steelmann58 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:18 am

Tomlin not going but i don't think anyone feels like their should not be Additions or Subtractions to this current staff.

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Post by PennyBacker » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:45 am

SteelerDayTrader wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:51 pm

My big picture take on Tomlin is this:

1. He kept the Steelers at Lombardi competitive level from 2007 - 2011. Went to 2 Super Bowls. Won 1
2. Keeps team to focused and competitive through 2 year rebulid in '12 and '13
3. 2014 the Steelers are back to being a Lombardi contender through 2017.
4. Steelers lose their key cog and most dynamic defender since Troy; 1st rd draft pick Shazier.
5. 2018 they go 9-6-1. Shazier's absence is wholly evident on the defense. Bell goes ape shit. AB's warts show signs of infection all season finally resulting in his turn to go ape shit
6. Despite losing 2 of the top 10 players in the NFL and probably realizing early 3 out of the top 10 arent going to be able to live up to what they could be Tomlin keeps team focused and makes never before seen in Steeler history moves in the draft and in trades during the season to mitigate losing 3 potential HOF level talents in less than a year that were totally unplanned for and not seen in the history of the NFL before.
7. AB's bullshit blows up. Tomlin keeps his cool playing his hand full of nothing. Completely bends over Gruden Mayock and the Raiders despite being dealt his cards face up that hand.
8. Tomlin's aging HOF QB goes down for the season. Still keeps team focused and finishes 8-8 despite the worst QB play in the NFL in several years.

I wish Tomlin had won 10 Super Bowls by now. That kind of thing doesnt happen though unless you cheat on a historic and obvious level along with being the largest $$$ generator in a sham entertainment reality show masquerading as a legit sporting league.

Tomlin is a damn fine HC in alot of respects. He does have some issues. So do all the other HCs in the league.

The Steelers have had some bad breaks in the Ben/Tomlin era. Shit happens.

Im looking forward to that turning in our favor soon rather than later.
Solid post imho.

Injuries are part of the equation. They happen to every team. It is still a mystery of what might have been though for the 14, 15 & 17 Steelers teams.

Bell's injuries against the Bengals, in the final week of the season in 14, and again in Week 6 or sometime early in 15 were devastating. Bell was hardly even a known commodity outside of Pittsburgh at those points. Especially in 14. Those quite probably could have been very special years had he been part of the Steelers active roster.

Losing Shazier to IR in 17 was another "what might have been?" He was seemingly just settling in as a generational playmaker, and had a supreme knack for making the big play at the crucial moment. There were respected opinions that he was too slight and would not be able to handle NFL physicality; and those were correct. As such, perhaps the rest of us should not have believed the glitter of his play was true gold. He sure was awesome to watch though.

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Post by StillMadAtSlobber » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:26 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:24 am
They probably win even more if injuries hadn't decimated them seemingly every year by December/January. The best teams they had in that stretch have been missing either Bell, AB, Shazier, or a healthy Ben by the end of the season. Makes it tough to win playoff games.
Losing RBs to injury isn't an excuse for a retard HC who purposefully plays the RB until he gets injured.

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Post by Obviously » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:50 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:36 pm
Great post WNM. The point is: it isn’t just injuries and it’s not just Roster management and it’s not just coaching and it’s all of those things, but I would say injuries really derailed things.

The thing about the late season collapse last season... If Boswell simply makes FGs like an average NFL field goal kicker, they win 2 1/2 more games. They get a first round bye. The margin between winning and losing in the NFL is just that slim. That makes it even more remarkable that the coach/quarterback/organization can win so much
You could argue injuries with the Boswell thing, too.
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Post by bradshaw2ben » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:05 pm

Obviously wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:50 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:36 pm
Great post WNM. The point is: it isn’t just injuries and it’s not just Roster management and it’s not just coaching and it’s all of those things, but I would say injuries really derailed things.

The thing about the late season collapse last season... If Boswell simply makes FGs like an average NFL field goal kicker, they win 2 1/2 more games. They get a first round bye. The margin between winning and losing in the NFL is just that slim. That makes it even more remarkable that the coach/quarterback/organization can win so much
You could argue injuries with the Boswell thing, too.
True. And Kicker is not someplace you can have a backup on the roster. Maddeningly close the past couple of years.
"Like Coach Tomlin always says, the slandered is the slandered. –@Pgh_Opie"

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Post by Steel Bingo » Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:20 pm

The hopes of next season seem predicated on the return of a running game which could be described somewhere along the lines of commanding or dominant. 2019 saw no consistency in that aspect.

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