Cowher to the Hall of Fame

[Thrillsseeker]

I can hardly believe the lack of photos that I expected in this thread.


No Tiffany Amber? No baywatch beauties?


Must be the off season.


I’ll leave you with:

5EA23A02-30C4-462E-9395-F83A02F92138.jpeg (28.99 KiB) Viewed 3875 times

[El Kabong]

Oh, come on...

It's easy to achieve one's goal....when that goal is mediocrity.

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season? So Tomlin works hard until he gets that 8th win of the season and then what? Stops trying to win?

[K_C_]

Oh, come on...

It's easy to achieve one's goal....when that goal is mediocrity.

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season? So Tomlin works hard until he gets that 8th win of the season and then what? Stops trying to win?

You definitely love you some Dumblin. Nobody rushes to the fuckstick's defense faster than you do.



Enjoying these non-playoff seasons, huh?

[El Kabong]

It's easy to achieve one's goal....when that goal is mediocrity.

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season? So Tomlin works hard until he gets that 8th win of the season and then what? Stops trying to win?

You definitely love you some Dumblin. Nobody rushes to the fuckstick's defense faster than you do.



Enjoying these non-playoff seasons, huh?

I'm disagreeing that it is Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season. I think I'm on sound footing that that's not the case.

[K_C_]

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season? So Tomlin works hard until he gets that 8th win of the season and then what? Stops trying to win?

You definitely love you some Dumblin. Nobody rushes to the fuckstick's defense faster than you do.



Enjoying these non-playoff seasons, huh?

I'm disagreeing that it is Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season. I think I'm on sound footing that that's not the case.

He's never had a losing season.

[Kodiak]

So apparently Aaron Rogers had said Mike McCarthy had a "low football IQ" and was lazy....I'm sure that doesn't describe Tomlin, at all.

I mean, how could it given how many coaches have flourished under the tutelage of Mr. Aviators?!?

[Kodiak]

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season?

You got me. Maybe 8 wins isn't his goal, it's just that he's satisfied with that because that's all that's needed to keep his job.

[Kodiak]

He's never had a losing season.

I'm sure this will be unpopular - but my hot take is Dumblin is as lazy and dumb as Mike McCarthy.

You don't get a Vrabel because you're afraid of hiring someone worse than Mike Tomlin.

[Kodiak]

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season?

Also, I noticed you didn't respond to the criticism of Tomlin's coaching tree.

No one wants to hire anyone who's learned from Aviators. Really sad fact.


Please try to defend that...

[drmalba]

He's never had a losing season.

I'm sure this will be unpopular - but my hot take is Dumblin is as lazy and dumb as Mike McCarthy.

You don't get a Vrabel because you're afraid of hiring someone worse than Mike Tomlin.

You also generally don't get into the playoffs at 9-7, which is all Vrabel has managed for two consecutive seasons in one of the weakest divisions in the AFC. Honestly he could have been out the door had they not lucked out getting a decent game-manager in Tannehill. Even with the improved stability at the QB position and the next coming of Earl Campbell at RB, they had their share of baffling losses this year. He had a nice 2.25-game stretch this playoffs, but I'm waiting for a bigger body of work.

[El Kabong]

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season?

You got me. Maybe 8 wins isn't his goal, it's just that he's satisfied with that because that's all that's needed to keep his job.

And you know he's SATISFIED with 8 wins in a season because you have super mind reading powers?

[El Kabong]

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season?

Also, I noticed you didn't respond to the criticism of Tomlin's coaching tree.

No one wants to hire anyone who's learned from Aviators. Really sad fact.


Please try to defend that...

I don't really have any thoughts about Tomlin's lack of a coaching tree.

[Drummer Boy]

I don't really have any thoughts about Tomlin's lack of a coaching tree.

Good for you! The "coaching tree" may be Kodiak's laziest trope yet.

Tomlin has had only two DC's: Lebeau was there when he arrived; now it's Butler, who is still here and running a top-three defense (according to DVOA). Not much chance for a coaching tree there.

Tomlin has had only three OC's: Arians was there already; then it was Haley, who no matter what anyone including myself may think, led the offense to its best sustained run in Steeler history; then there's Fichtner, who had a good 2018 but apparently is a moron for not leading the deaf, dumb and blind to an amazing season. Again, no chance for a coaching tree.

Lebeau: Already had failed as a head coach; legendary DC.
Butler: Still employed by the Steelers, and doing well.

Arians: Already there.
Haley: Already failed as a head coach; successful OC.
Fichtner: Still here.

How the fuck do you get a coaching tree out of that?

Tomlin has had three former head coaches under his command. All of them stayed for as long or longer than anyone might have expected. You would think someone like Lebeau, or someone like Munchak, who had been head coaches and were as respected in their positions as anyone could possibly be, would have left if they thought their HC was a lazy moron. Could it be they knew better than Kodiak? I for one refuse to believe it.

[BethlehemSteel]

I can hardly believe the lack of photos that I expected in this thread.


No Tiffany Amber? No baywatch beauties?


Must be the off season.


I’ll leave you with:5EA23A02-30C4-462E-9395-F83A02F92138.jpeg

[Scunge]

You can have a coaching tree by more than just your OCs or DCs leaving to become head coaches. What about position coaches that were poached away to become OCs and DCs. That counts in my book.

Again, I was able to show how Marvin Lewis was our LB coach under Cowher and then became the Ravens DC. How Clements went from our QB coach to an OC for Buffalo. How in 2 years time, Ron Zook went from our special teams coach to being the DC for the Saints.
There were other examples where Cowher's position coaches would be poached away.

Where are the examples under Tomlin?? Where are the RB, TE, QB, WR, LB, Secondary coaches, Special Teams coaches that would be interviewed by other teams and fill DC and OC vacancies??

As I mentioned Ray Horton was hired by Cowher, was our secondary coach and then was hired by the Arizona Cardinals as their DC. Yes, that happened in 2011, under Tomlin's watch, but Horton was a Cowher hire and coached 3 years under him before Tomlin came on the scene in 2007.

Anybody, please, show me an example of Tomlin hiring an assistant coach and then that assistant coach improving his career by moving onwards and upwards, being poached by another team to be their DC, OC.

I can think of a lot of assistant coaches that moved sideways in the NFL and downward, back to the college game.

Scottie Montgomery was a Tomlin hire, he coached WR from 2010-2012. He then went back college, Duke, coached WR, was an OC and then was made Head Coach of East Carolina for 3 years, they went 9-26. He is now the OC/QB coach of Maryland.

Sean Kugler was a Tomlin hire, he coached the O-line for 3 seasons, and then went back to college and became the Head Coach of UTEP, they went 18-36 under Kugler.

The Jack Bicknell Jrs, the Kirby Wilsons, the Carnell Lakes. They all went sideways or down too.

To me this is another bit of proof of what I have thought all along, that Tomlin has never really enjoyed the power that Bill Cowher had. Bill could hire and fire people at will, he was allowed to completely remake the coaching staff in 1992 with the only exception being Dick Hoak, the RB coach. Hoak was a Rooney favorite and had a job for life, he was hands off. Tomlin has never had the autonomy or control that Cowher had, he has to run these major coaching hires/fire by Rooney and get his blessing.

I find it hard for some people to not get this. Cowher had Dan Rooney who believed that you hire that Noll type and get out of his way. Tomlin has instead the Duece who has a bit more Jerry Jones to him, he is more self absorbed, is more involved in the process, not hands off like his father. It really is that simple. Cowher had more power and control and Tomlin had less because of the changing of the guard in ownership. Father and Son had slightly different views on what the power dynamic of the Steelers would be in terms of HC, GM and owner. That is my two cents anyway.

[Ice]

Well, the Broons hired Haley...

But seriously, in actuality, Lebeau "retired" from the PS, but is still active in the NFL, Arians is an NFL HC, and while I don't think anyone's going to be beating down the door for Butler and Sphincter, two of the three that have moved on found long-term NFL employment.

[Jobu]

Well, the Broons hired Haley...

But seriously, in actuality, Lebeau "retired" from the PS, but is still active in the NFL, Arians is an NFL HC, and while I don't think anyone's going to be beating down the door for Butler and Sphincter, two of the three that have moved on found long-term NFL employment.

Actually, Lebeau resigned from the Steelers...although it’s widely believed that was the nice way of firing him.
Lebeau isn’t working anywhere in the NFL right now.

And neither is Haley.

[El Kabong]

And under the rules of this discussion, we're not crediting Arians to Tomlin because he was already on the team when Tomlin was hired.

[El Kabong]

You can have a coaching tree by more than just your OCs or DCs leaving to become head coaches. What about position coaches that were poached away to become OCs and DCs. That counts in my book.

Again, I was able to show how Marvin Lewis was our LB coach under Cowher and then became the Ravens DC. How Clements went from our QB coach to an OC for Buffalo. How in 2 years time, Ron Zook went from our special teams coach to being the DC for the Saints.
There were other examples where Cowher's position coaches would be poached away.

Where are the examples under Tomlin?? Where are the RB, TE, QB, WR, LB, Secondary coaches, Special Teams coaches that would be interviewed by other teams and fill DC and OC vacancies??

As I mentioned Ray Horton was hired by Cowher, was our secondary coach and then was hired by the Arizona Cardinals as their DC. Yes, that happened in 2011, under Tomlin's watch, but Horton was a Cowher hire and coached 3 years under him before Tomlin came on the scene in 2007.

Anybody, please, show me an example of Tomlin hiring an assistant coach and then that assistant coach improving his career by moving onwards and upwards, being poached by another team to be their DC, OC.

I can think of a lot of assistant coaches that moved sideways in the NFL and downward, back to the college game.

Scottie Montgomery was a Tomlin hire, he coached WR from 2010-2012. He then went back college, Duke, coached WR, was an OC and then was made Head Coach of East Carolina for 3 years, they went 9-26. He is now the OC/QB coach of Maryland.

Sean Kugler was a Tomlin hire, he coached the O-line for 3 seasons, and then went back to college and became the Head Coach of UTEP, they went 18-36 under Kugler.

The Jack Bicknell Jrs, the Kirby Wilsons, the Carnell Lakes. They all went sideways or down too.

To me this is another bit of proof of what I have thought all along, that Tomlin has never really enjoyed the power that Bill Cowher had. Bill could hire and fire people at will, he was allowed to completely remake the coaching staff in 1992 with the only exception being Dick Hoak, the RB coach. Hoak was a Rooney favorite and had a job for life, he was hands off. Tomlin has never had the autonomy or control that Cowher had, he has to run these major coaching hires/fire by Rooney and get his blessing.

I find it hard for some people to not get this. Cowher had Dan Rooney who believed that you hire that Noll type and get out of his way. Tomlin has instead the Duece who has a bit more Jerry Jones to him, he is more self absorbed, is more involved in the process, not hands off like his father. It really is that simple. Cowher had more power and control and Tomlin had less because of the changing of the guard in ownership. Father and Son had slightly different views on what the power dynamic of the Steelers would be in terms of HC, GM and owner. That is my two cents anyway.

The Steelers were in a different place when Cowher was hired as opposed to when Tomlin was hired. When Cowher was hired, the Steelers hadn't been to a super bowl in 13 years, hadn't been to the playoffs in 3 years, and were coming off a losing season. There wasn't any reason to keep that coaching staff around. When Tomlin was hired, the Steelers were 2 years removed from the super bowl. Lots of reasons to want to keep the band together and try to continue the run, so few changes at the beginning of Tomlin's HC career.

[Ice]

Well, the Broons hired Haley...

But seriously, in actuality, Lebeau "retired" from the PS, but is still active in the NFL, Arians is an NFL HC, and while I don't think anyone's going to be beating down the door for Butler and Sphincter, two of the three that have moved on found long-term NFL employment.

Actually, Lebeau resigned from the Steelers...although it’s widely believed that was the nice way of firing him.
Lebeau isn’t working anywhere in the NFL right now.

And neither is Haley.

I thought I'd read he was consulting with someone, but if he's not, I'm guessing it has more to do with advanced age than anything else.

Haley, on the other hand...

[Jobu]

Well, the Broons hired Haley...

But seriously, in actuality, Lebeau "retired" from the PS, but is still active in the NFL, Arians is an NFL HC, and while I don't think anyone's going to be beating down the door for Butler and Sphincter, two of the three that have moved on found long-term NFL employment.

Actually, Lebeau resigned from the Steelers...although it’s widely believed that was the nice way of firing him.
Lebeau isn’t working anywhere in the NFL right now.

And neither is Haley.

I thought I'd read he was consulting with someone, but if he's not, I'm guessing it has more to do with advanced age than anything else.

Haley, on the other hand...

He (Lebeau) was with the Titans under Malarkey for a few years after he left the Steelers. When the Titans hired Vrabel, Lebeau wanted to stick around...the Titans said thanks, but no thanks.

When Tomlin was hired, the Steelers were 2 years removed from the super bowl. Lots of reasons to want to keep the band together and try to continue the run, so few changes at the beginning of Tomlin's HC career.

IMO, this was/is a huge mistake. A new head coach needs to bring his own people on board. That’s the only way he can make it his team...otherwise, you get a puppet...or potted plant.

[Ice]

I agree.

[955876]

You can have a coaching tree by more than just your OCs or DCs leaving to become head coaches. What about position coaches that were poached away to become OCs and DCs. That counts in my book.

Again, I was able to show how Marvin Lewis was our LB coach under Cowher and then became the Ravens DC. How Clements went from our QB coach to an OC for Buffalo. How in 2 years time, Ron Zook went from our special teams coach to being the DC for the Saints.
There were other examples where Cowher's position coaches would be poached away.

Where are the examples under Tomlin?? Where are the RB, TE, QB, WR, LB, Secondary coaches, Special Teams coaches that would be interviewed by other teams and fill DC and OC vacancies??

As I mentioned Ray Horton was hired by Cowher, was our secondary coach and then was hired by the Arizona Cardinals as their DC. Yes, that happened in 2011, under Tomlin's watch, but Horton was a Cowher hire and coached 3 years under him before Tomlin came on the scene in 2007.

Anybody, please, show me an example of Tomlin hiring an assistant coach and then that assistant coach improving his career by moving onwards and upwards, being poached by another team to be their DC, OC.

I can think of a lot of assistant coaches that moved sideways in the NFL and downward, back to the college game.

Scottie Montgomery was a Tomlin hire, he coached WR from 2010-2012. He then went back college, Duke, coached WR, was an OC and then was made Head Coach of East Carolina for 3 years, they went 9-26. He is now the OC/QB coach of Maryland.

Sean Kugler was a Tomlin hire, he coached the O-line for 3 seasons, and then went back to college and became the Head Coach of UTEP, they went 18-36 under Kugler.

The Jack Bicknell Jrs, the Kirby Wilsons, the Carnell Lakes. They all went sideways or down too.

To me this is another bit of proof of what I have thought all along, that Tomlin has never really enjoyed the power that Bill Cowher had. Bill could hire and fire people at will, he was allowed to completely remake the coaching staff in 1992 with the only exception being Dick Hoak, the RB coach. Hoak was a Rooney favorite and had a job for life, he was hands off. Tomlin has never had the autonomy or control that Cowher had, he has to run these major coaching hires/fire by Rooney and get his blessing.

I find it hard for some people to not get this. Cowher had Dan Rooney who believed that you hire that Noll type and get out of his way. Tomlin has instead the Duece who has a bit more Jerry Jones to him, he is more self absorbed, is more involved in the process, not hands off like his father. It really is that simple. Cowher had more power and control and Tomlin had less because of the changing of the guard in ownership. Father and Son had slightly different views on what the power dynamic of the Steelers would be in terms of HC, GM and owner. That is my two cents anyway.

The Steelers were in a different place when Cowher was hired as opposed to when Tomlin was hired. When Cowher was hired, the Steelers hadn't been to a super bowl in 13 years, hadn't been to the playoffs in 3 years, and were coming off a losing season. There wasn't any reason to keep that coaching staff around. When Tomlin was hired, the Steelers were 2 years removed from the super bowl. Lots of reasons to want to keep the band together and try to continue the run, so few changes at the beginning of Tomlin's HC career.

Given the lackluster results Tomlin has delivered the more the team has become “his” it looks like a great thing they kept the band together as long as possible.

[K_C_]

Oh, it's Tomlin's GOAL to only win 8 games in a season?

Also, I noticed you didn't respond to the criticism of Tomlin's coaching tree.

No one wants to hire anyone who's learned from Aviators. Really sad fact.


Please try to defend that...

I don't really have any thoughts about Tomlin's lack of a coaching tree.

I’ll bet you don’t.

[El Kabong]

Also, I noticed you didn't respond to the criticism of Tomlin's coaching tree.

No one wants to hire anyone who's learned from Aviators. Really sad fact.


Please try to defend that...

I don't really have any thoughts about Tomlin's lack of a coaching tree.

I’ll bet you don’t.

Yes, I can see for you it's a huge indictment of Tomlin.

[K_C_]

I don't really have any thoughts about Tomlin's lack of a coaching tree.

I’ll bet you don’t.

Yes, I can see for you it's a huge indictment of Tomlin.

Duh.

[Drummer Boy]

You can have a coaching tree by more than just your OCs or DCs leaving to become head coaches. What about position coaches that were poached away to become OCs and DCs. That counts in my book. ...

Good reply, as always Scunge. I should have quoted Kodiak as well as you, because I was thinking of Kodiak's Tomlin-sliming when I wrote the reply, which I did not at all make clear.

But with regard to that:

Your knowledge and research on stuff like this is impressive, and it's one of the reasons I come here. But most people think of head coaches when they think of coaching trees, and head coaches generally come from the ranks of coordinators, and that is what Kodiak was thinking of with his little diatribe -- you can bet your ass he wasn't thinking about Ron Zook.

That is why I felt I had to point out that Tomlin had literally no opportunity to have a coaching tree -- maybe he did in the way you think of it, but not in the way most people think of it. I also think its important to point out again that guys like Munchak and Lebeau, who have as much respect in the league as anyone, stayed on. Do we think guys like this would stay on if they thought the head coach was incompetent or, even worse, lazy?

[Kodiak]

That is why I felt I had to point out that Tomlin had literally no opportunity to have a coaching tree -- maybe he did in the way you think of it, but not in the way most people think of it.

LMFAO, there literally is NO EXCUSE Tomlin apologists won't make for the guy. He's been a HC for 12-13 years and we're not talking about not having the opportunity to have as many as others, we're talking that he literally has no coaching tree.

If Tomlin doesn't have enough say over who his coaches are then why does he keep signing extensions? Does he enjoy mediocrity being forced on him? Or maybe winning isn't that important to him and he really has gotten fat and lazy - why else would he stay if Deuce is overly meddlesome?

People don't realize their lame ass excuses for Tomlin, if actually true, often helps the point they're attempting to refute.

[Donnie Brasco]

That is why I felt I had to point out that Tomlin had literally no opportunity to have a coaching tree -- maybe he did in the way you think of it, but not in the way most people think of it.

LMFAO, there literally is NO EXCUSE Tomlin apologists won't make for the guy. He's been a HC for 12-13 years and we're not talking about not having the opportunity to have as many as others, we're talking that he literally has no coaching tree.

If Tomlin doesn't have enough say over who his coaches are then why does he keep signing extensions? Does he enjoy mediocrity being forced on him? Or maybe winning isn't that important to him and he really has gotten fat and lazy - why else would he stay if Deuce is overly meddlesome?

People don't realize their lame ass excuses for Tomlin, if actually true, often helps the point they're attempting to refute.

Poor Tomlin.
A victim of circumstance throughout his entire coaching career

[Thrillsseeker]

I can hardly believe the lack of photos that I expected in this thread.


No Tiffany Amber? No baywatch beauties?


Must be the off season.


I’ll leave you with:5EA23A02-30C4-462E-9395-F83A02F92138.jpeg