Cowher to the Hall of Fame

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steelmann58
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Re: Cowher to the Hall of Fame

Post by steelmann58 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:35 am

then tomlin is over that limit.



Jobu
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Post by Jobu » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 am

Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 am
Hines Ward is more deserving than Cowher. Hopefully Cowher's presence will be as a lobbyist for Hines.
Hines Ward in no way, shape, or form belongs in the HoF. But neither does Cowher...so fingers crossed. :lol:

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Post by anpsteel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:49 am

El Kabong wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 am
anpsteel wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:46 am
Jobu wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:09 pm

Yep...the two times he wavered from “his kind of team” he made the Super Bowl. Then he went right back to his conservative scheme the following season. Football coaches in general are a stubborn lot. Cowher took that to a higher level.
He got out at the right time. The game didn’t just pass him by...it zoomed by.

I still shake my head every time I’m reminded that they put this guy in the HoF. The NFLs 100th anniversary will go down as the year they cheapened the honor of being inducted in to the Hall. Cant wait to see what other “greats” they leave the door ajar for... :roll:
This just isn't true.

Neither the 95 or 05 teams wavered from his run first philosophy, at all. Morris/Peagram and Parker/Bettis were the backs - unless my addled brain is addledly. lol

Also to point out, that run first ideology is certainly seeing a resurgence this year. How did Balt, Hou, Tenn do?

Admittedly, the rules greatly favor the passing game, but the league is cyclical and the run will come back.

Finally, Cowher needed to go, imo, more so because the message becomes stall and the players less responsive, as time wears on. Madden was famous for saying no HC should be in place beyond 10 years. The players begin to tune out the message, and I think to some degree that's what we saw on Cowher's final teams.
Except that the second to last of Cowher's teams won a Super Bowl, so it wouldn't appear his message was stale then.

I remember the 95 Steelers as being a passing team, rolling out the 5 WR set for the first time complete with Slash.
They may have, on very rare occasion, gone 5 wide. But they were much more likely to run 11 or even 21 or 12 personnel groups. NOD wasn't nearly quick enough in his reads, release, or mobility, to go empty backfield without blitz pickup protection.

NOD was the quintessential Game Manager QB. If you put the game on him, as a general rule- you were going to be in trouble.

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Post by SteelerDayTrader » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:16 am

Happy for Bill Cowher.....but......this just kinda says it all.......lol :lol: 8-)

“I think it’s a reward more than a validation,” Cowher said. “It’s almost like an overtime walk-off field goal. I don’t know if this was a 48-yarder or if it was a 24-yarder. All I know is it went through the uprights and we won.”

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Post by Jobu » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 am

anpsteel wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:49 am
El Kabong wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 am
anpsteel wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:46 am


This just isn't true.

Neither the 95 or 05 teams wavered from his run first philosophy, at all. Morris/Peagram and Parker/Bettis were the backs - unless my addled brain is addledly. lol

Also to point out, that run first ideology is certainly seeing a resurgence this year. How did Balt, Hou, Tenn do?

Admittedly, the rules greatly favor the passing game, but the league is cyclical and the run will come back.

Finally, Cowher needed to go, imo, more so because the message becomes stall and the players less responsive, as time wears on. Madden was famous for saying no HC should be in place beyond 10 years. The players begin to tune out the message, and I think to some degree that's what we saw on Cowher's final teams.
Except that the second to last of Cowher's teams won a Super Bowl, so it wouldn't appear his message was stale then.

I remember the 95 Steelers as being a passing team, rolling out the 5 WR set for the first time complete with Slash.
They may have, on very rare occasion, gone 5 wide. But they were much more likely to run 11 or even 21 or 12 personnel groups. NOD wasn't nearly quick enough in his reads, release, or mobility, to go empty backfield without blitz pickup protection.

NOD was the quintessential Game Manager QB. If you put the game on him, as a general rule- you were going to be in trouble.
I had to check to make sure my memory wasn’t failing. It’s been known to happen... :mrgreen:
NOD in 12 starts threw 416 times...just a bit under 35 apg. He passed for 2970 yards in those 12 games...246+ ypg.
Those are hardly game manager stats for the 1995 NFL. And under Cowher, that was an air raid attack. The Steelers most certainly used 4 and 5 wide sets quite often in 95, especially the second half of the season.
NOD and the passing game was the main reason the Steelers made the Super Bowl that season.
The Steelers overall, passed for nearly 4000 yards as a team.

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Post by K_C_ » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:33 am

Kodiak wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:11 am
K_C_ wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:23 pm
Cowher has joked before about it. Said something along the lines of; "thank God they didn't listen to me".
I've never heard that.

I HAVE heard Rooney say "we'd all love to take credit for that pick [BEN]". He said that live in either the 2008 or 2010 AFCC.

And also that "we didn't think Ben would be there....and Cowher said "gotta take the QB". That's in Rooney's book. Any braindead fan can connect the dots and, basically, Ben unexpectedly fell in their lap and all agreed it was a no-brainer pick.

The Shane Andrews shit is complete bullshit. There's never been any credence to that rumor. None. I just gave you two examples in person, and in his book, where Rooney refutes that. And this has been said before, but still that bullshit keeps coming up. I know you hate him, but he belongs in the HOF.
Cowher joked about it in an interview after the Santonio catch. Less than a week after the Super Bowl. Shawn Andrews name wasn’t mentioned, only that Cowher preferred an “offensive lineman”. Maybe he was just going with and joking but I doubt it.

And while I was sick to death of Cowher being head coach (too many postseason meltdowns as favorites. That can’t be argued) I won’t argue the fact he was a very good football coach and I’m happy for the guy getting in the Hall of Fame. Cowher seems like a very good guy.

He’s LIGHT YEARS better than Dumblin but....he still belongs in the Hall of Very good.

Cowher wasn’t great, no matter how badly you want him to be.

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Post by steelmann58 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:22 am

Cowher has done a good Job with the QB's he had to work with through his career. Congrats

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Post by drmalba » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:25 am

Jobu wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 am
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 am
Hines Ward is more deserving than Cowher. Hopefully Cowher's presence will be as a lobbyist for Hines.
Hines Ward in no way, shape, or form belongs in the HoF. But neither does Cowher...so fingers crossed. :lol:
If it helps, Ward had 10k+ yards receiving playing primarily in Bill Cowher's offenses while down a knee ligament.
He literally changed the game with his regular and violent linebacker decleating.
The only Super Bowl MVP offensive player- I am certain -who simultaneously was elected dirtiest player in the league multiple times by other NFL players.
I fucking love Hines Ward. He is as Pittsburgh as they come. And he most certainly belongs in the HoF.

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Post by anpsteel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:26 pm

Jobu wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 am
anpsteel wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:49 am
El Kabong wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 am

Except that the second to last of Cowher's teams won a Super Bowl, so it wouldn't appear his message was stale then.

I remember the 95 Steelers as being a passing team, rolling out the 5 WR set for the first time complete with Slash.
They may have, on very rare occasion, gone 5 wide. But they were much more likely to run 11 or even 21 or 12 personnel groups. NOD wasn't nearly quick enough in his reads, release, or mobility, to go empty backfield without blitz pickup protection.

NOD was the quintessential Game Manager QB. If you put the game on him, as a general rule- you were going to be in trouble.
I had to check to make sure my memory wasn’t failing. It’s been known to happen... :mrgreen:
NOD in 12 starts threw 416 times...just a bit under 35 apg. He passed for 2970 yards in those 12 games...246+ ypg.
Those are hardly game manager stats for the 1995 NFL. And under Cowher, that was an air raid attack. The Steelers most certainly used 4 and 5 wide sets quite often in 95, especially the second half of the season.
NOD and the passing game was the main reason the Steelers made the Super Bowl that season.
The Steelers overall, passed for nearly 4000 yards as a team.
Here are the PFF stats for offense in 95
Player PF Yds Ply Y/P TO FL 1stD Cmp Att Yds TD Int NY/A 1stD Att Yds TD Y/A 1stD Pen Yds 1stPy

Team Stats 407 5769 1110 5.2 34 13 344 348 592 3917 21 21 6.4 193 494 1852 17 3.7 117 109 839 34


The formating is all effed up- but to your point 592 passing attempts for 3917 yards / 494 rushing attempts for 1852 yards.


So yeah, they did open up the offense a bit more with Erhardt, but I really don't recall a whole lot of 5 wide.

fwiw, this was erhardt's final season with the team. He went to the Jets in a lateral move- so you can only imagine Bill and he were having disagreements on philosophy. lol

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Post by W&M_Steeler » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:47 pm

Jobu wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 am
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 am
Hines Ward is more deserving than Cowher. Hopefully Cowher's presence will be as a lobbyist for Hines.
Hines Ward in no way, shape, or form belongs in the HoF. But neither does Cowher...so fingers crossed. :lol:
Ward has at least as good of an argument for the HoF as Torrey Holt and Reggie Wayne, and both Holt and Wayne are finalists this year. If they get in, Hines should get in.

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Post by Kodiak » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:20 pm

W&M_Steeler wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:47 pm
Ward has at least as good of an argument for the HoF as Torrey Holt and Reggie Wayne...
Yeah, if Ward isn't one of the greats then very, very few deserve to be in the HOF. He was a GREAT football player, first, and as others have mentioned his stats actually compare favorably. Anyone building a football team that takes Holt or Wayne over Ward should be institutionalized.

The way he played the game, and the passion he brought to the game....if that isn't HOF-worthy then fuck it.
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Post by MJG75 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:27 pm

While true that he went with Chan Gailey's 5 wide idea (since we had Slash, it became possible) in 1995, I never for a minute thought Coach Cowher wavered from his pound and ground philosophy. He simply added to it.

2005, same thing, though I can see how one might think that given how we approached the divisional game against the Colts.

My thought was that he only wavered during the Tommy Maddox era. I found myself scratching my head at the approach during those years, though I think some of that was due to injuries to RB's and OL, and not having the right pieces in place to do what he usually wanted to do. Having those pieces in place to run his philosophy every other year than 2002-2003 is remarkable and an example of his incredible consistency.

Objectively, should Bill be in the HOF? I say, marginal, but as a homer, I'm happy as can be. He did enough in my book, and I'm proud of him residing with our other outstanding players, coaches, and front office, already and soon to be enshrined.

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Post by gojira5150 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:48 pm

drmalba wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:25 am
Jobu wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 am
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 am
Hines Ward is more deserving than Cowher. Hopefully Cowher's presence will be as a lobbyist for Hines.
Hines Ward in no way, shape, or form belongs in the HoF. But neither does Cowher...so fingers crossed. :lol:
If it helps, Ward had 10k+ yards receiving playing primarily in Bill Cowher's offenses while down a knee ligament.
He literally changed the game with his regular and violent linebacker decleating.
The only Super Bowl MVP offensive player- I am certain -who simultaneously was elected dirtiest player in the league multiple times by other NFL players.
I fucking love Hines Ward. He is as Pittsburgh as they come. And he most certainly belongs in the HoF.
I agree with this statement 100%. Ward does deserve to be in the HOF. A rule was made because Ward was knocking out opposing defenders. That's one tough SOB. He also put up great numbers for a run 1st team. You swap him & Harrison and let Manning throw to Ward and he'd have crazy receiving numbers. Plus there's the SB MVP thing too. I don't recall his contemporaries receiving a SB MVP.
Obliteration Is Imminent

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Post by Jobu » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:01 pm

I guess I have a different idea of what a HoF player is. Ward was a good player, never a great player. Nobody outside of Steelers homers considers Ward a great player. Most of his time, despised him as a dirty cheap shot artist....which he was. If Ward played for any other team, he’d be on every Steelers fan hate list, right there with Tom Brady, Ray Lewis, and Bill Belichick.
Not every good Steelers player deserves to be in the Hall.
But like I said, they put Cowher in, so who knows.

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Post by Kodiak » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:01 pm

gojira5150 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:48 pm
You swap him & Harrison and let Manning throw to Ward and he'd have crazy receiving numbers.
There was a time where you needed a big play or convert 3rd and 6....EVERYONE knew it was going to Ward but he still got it done. If you played zone against him, he'd kill you.

I think there was one year, maybe the 112 catches year, where he caught nearly 80% of his targets. Which is about as automatic as you'll get with a receiver. Yeah, playing in a dome with Manning and no one would be questioning his production.
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Post by JackLambert58 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:54 pm

Kodiak wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:49 pm
Cowher was very deserving, IMO.

His big game losses came to Elway (twice), Brady (twice) and Aikman. All 5 teams went on to win the SB. The only real playoff flub he had was SD in the AFCC.

Sure, they were favorites in many of those games. But with a huge disadvantage at QB (and, indeed, they were victimized by pretty poor QB play in most of those games), it could be argued those teams overachieved.

In an era with a dearth of elite QB's, Cowher probably had the most success of anyone without such a QB. If Andy Reid manages to win the SB, he'll have a little better resume than Cowher.
A small correction here. 2001 AFCCG, Brady got knocked out just before the half thanks to a hit by Lethon Flowers, and Drew Bledsoe took his place. That game was actually lost because of two Special Teams fuck ups. The first being Troy Edwards going out of bounds before tackling Troy Brown on a punt return. Edwards gets flagged and the Steelers punt again and Brown takes it to the house. The second was blocked field goal by the Pats with Antwan Harris taking it back for a TD. Take away those fuck ups, the Steelers win 17-10. All through the 2001 season, Special Teams was a problem that was not addressed by Coach Cowher or ST coach Jay Hayes.

Coach Cowher drove me crazy at times, but congratulations to him. Hard to overlook those four AFCCG losses in Pittsburgh, though, and damn near lost to a banged up Indy team in '95.

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Post by Scunge » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 pm

That 95 season on offense was all about Chan Gailey coming of age and getting more and more control of the offense. He convinced Cowher that we did have a great group of WRs and that he wanted to get them all on the field, so they implemented a rotation by quarters approach with Thigpen, Johnson, Hastings and Mills. He (Chan) also did the 5 WR sets with Slash, he was innovative in trying new things and Cowher had faith in Gailey and would let him do it.

Erhardt may have been the OC but Gailey was really running the show, designing the offense, the passing game.

What is funny about whether Cowher is deserving of the Hall, or if Tomlin is deserving is that a couple crucial things are always left out. Do I think either are Hall of Fame worthy? For me it is hard to discern because I feel that any good head coach placed in Pittsburgh would be successful because of the stability and support. What am I talking about?

One, how important is it for a head coach to have stability in the front office, his general manager in particular?? People get hung up on the fact that the Steelers have only had 3 head coaches in the past 50 years, blah, blah, blah. Well, the same can nearly be said for our general managers.

Since 1971, the Steelers have only had 3 general managers, Dick Haley, Tom Donahoe and Kevin Colbert. Three GMs in 50 years.

Hmmm. Let us look at some other NFL teams. How many GMs have they had in just the last 10 years, 5 years?

The Cleveland Browns?? Since they reentered the NFL as an expansion team in 99, in 20 years they have had 9 general managers. They just fired Dorsey, so they will be looking to hire their 3rd GM in just the past 5 years.

Other teams are just as bad. Most NFL teams will have had 5-6 GM changes in the past 20 years. And the Pittsburgh Steelers have had just 3 GMs in the last 50 years.

And the team owner itself, huge for a head coach. How many teams have been bought and sold over the years? How many teams have that one family that maintains control and keeps it within the family, passes it down from father to son? That stability is so damn rare.

So, some of the failed coaches over the years on other teams, if they were in Pittsburgh, coaching on the most stabile franchise in all of sports, not having to worry about their GM being fired, not having to worry about they themselves being fired for having one bad year, wouldn't they be successful too???

All of this talk of how we as Steeler fans are spoiled to have Noll, Cowher and Tomlin as our heads coaches these past 50 years, how lucky we are, how outrageous to think that we would ever question their credentials! Are we lucky or were Chuck, Bill and Mike the true lucky ones???

Say Bill is not hired in 1992 to be the Steelers head coach, say he finally get his chance to be the Cleveland Browns head coach when they come back to the NFL in 1999, with Dwight Clark as his GM. How would that have gone down? Think Bill Cowher is destined for the Hall of Fame in that position, with that team??

You can do the same with Tomlin and Noll. They are all good, fine coaches, but circumstances, timing, luck can be everything. They all landed with the perfect organization that gave them everything they could ever possibly want to be successful.

I don't think any of this is news to Bill Cowher or Tomlin or Noll. They all knew how lucky they were, every single one of them, it was like they bought the winning lottery ticket when they were chosen by the Steelers. Making the Hall of Fame is like a formality, a foregone conclusion.

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Post by Donnie Brasco » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:39 pm

Jobu wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:01 pm
I guess I have a different idea of what a HoF player is. Ward was a good player, never a great player. Nobody outside of Steelers homers considers Ward a great player. Most of his time, despised him as a dirty cheap shot artist....which he was. If Ward played for any other team, he’d be on every Steelers fan hate list, right there with Tom Brady, Ray Lewis, and Bill Belichick.
Not every good Steelers player deserves to be in the Hall.
But like I said, they put Cowher in, so who knows.
Hines will be known for his crazy blocking...I know it's not crucial for a WR, but there wasn't a player like him since Art Monk.
So while the stats/catches won't get him to the Hall, his impact on the game may push him over the edge. Plus he has a high likability factor...that counts.
Look no further than Cowher and Dungy and on the flipside it took Charles Haley (one of the best pass rushers ever) like 4 times to get in

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Post by anpsteel » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:49 am

Scunge wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 pm
That 95 season on offense was all about Chan Gailey coming of age and getting more and more control of the offense. He convinced Cowher that we did have a great group of WRs and that he wanted to get them all on the field, so they implemented a rotation by quarters approach with Thigpen, Johnson, Hastings and Mills. He (Chan) also did the 5 WR sets with Slash, he was innovative in trying new things and Cowher had faith in Gailey and would let him do it.

Erhardt may have been the OC but Gailey was really running the show, designing the offense, the passing game.

What is funny about whether Cowher is deserving of the Hall, or if Tomlin is deserving is that a couple crucial things are always left out. Do I think either are Hall of Fame worthy? For me it is hard to discern because I feel that any good head coach placed in Pittsburgh would be successful because of the stability and support. What am I talking about?

One, how important is it for a head coach to have stability in the front office, his general manager in particular?? People get hung up on the fact that the Steelers have only had 3 head coaches in the past 50 years, blah, blah, blah. Well, the same can nearly be said for our general managers.

Since 1971, the Steelers have only had 3 general managers, Dick Haley, Tom Donahoe and Kevin Colbert. Three GMs in 50 years.

Hmmm. Let us look at some other NFL teams. How many GMs have they had in just the last 10 years, 5 years?

The Cleveland Browns?? Since they reentered the NFL as an expansion team in 99, in 20 years they have had 9 general managers. They just fired Dorsey, so they will be looking to hire their 3rd GM in just the past 5 years.

Other teams are just as bad. Most NFL teams will have had 5-6 GM changes in the past 20 years. And the Pittsburgh Steelers have had just 3 GMs in the last 50 years.

And the team owner itself, huge for a head coach. How many teams have been bought and sold over the years? How many teams have that one family that maintains control and keeps it within the family, passes it down from father to son? That stability is so damn rare.

So, some of the failed coaches over the years on other teams, if they were in Pittsburgh, coaching on the most stabile franchise in all of sports, not having to worry about their GM being fired, not having to worry about they themselves being fired for having one bad year, wouldn't they be successful too???

All of this talk of how we as Steeler fans are spoiled to have Noll, Cowher and Tomlin as our heads coaches these past 50 years, how lucky we are, how outrageous to think that we would ever question their credentials! Are we lucky or were Chuck, Bill and Mike the true lucky ones???

Say Bill is not hired in 1992 to be the Steelers head coach, say he finally get his chance to be the Cleveland Browns head coach when they come back to the NFL in 1999, with Dwight Clark as his GM. How would that have gone down? Think Bill Cowher is destined for the Hall of Fame in that position, with that team??

You can do the same with Tomlin and Noll. They are all good, fine coaches, but circumstances, timing, luck can be everything. They all landed with the perfect organization that gave them everything they could ever possibly want to be successful.

I don't think any of this is news to Bill Cowher or Tomlin or Noll. They all knew how lucky they were, every single one of them, it was like they bought the winning lottery ticket when they were chosen by the Steelers. Making the Hall of Fame is like a formality, a foregone conclusion.
You make some really good points.

I'll add this: Noll took over a real loser of a team and organization- and completely reset it. None of this exists without Noll, imo.

Also, Bill took Noll's floundering team- a team that had been struggling for years- and made it into a championship contender almost immediately. Then rebuilt an entirely new roster into a championship team. If Cowher had stayed would they have gone to two more SBs. Would they have won both, none or one??

Tomlin took over Cowher's already established team and continued to win with it. That team has long ago aged away- with the exception of the QB. What do you have since??

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Post by MJG75 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:36 pm

anpsteel wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:49 am
Scunge wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 pm
That 95 season on offense was all about Chan Gailey coming of age and getting more and more control of the offense. He convinced Cowher that we did have a great group of WRs and that he wanted to get them all on the field, so they implemented a rotation by quarters approach with Thigpen, Johnson, Hastings and Mills. He (Chan) also did the 5 WR sets with Slash, he was innovative in trying new things and Cowher had faith in Gailey and would let him do it.

Erhardt may have been the OC but Gailey was really running the show, designing the offense, the passing game.

What is funny about whether Cowher is deserving of the Hall, or if Tomlin is deserving is that a couple crucial things are always left out. Do I think either are Hall of Fame worthy? For me it is hard to discern because I feel that any good head coach placed in Pittsburgh would be successful because of the stability and support. What am I talking about?

One, how important is it for a head coach to have stability in the front office, his general manager in particular?? People get hung up on the fact that the Steelers have only had 3 head coaches in the past 50 years, blah, blah, blah. Well, the same can nearly be said for our general managers.

Since 1971, the Steelers have only had 3 general managers, Dick Haley, Tom Donahoe and Kevin Colbert. Three GMs in 50 years.

Hmmm. Let us look at some other NFL teams. How many GMs have they had in just the last 10 years, 5 years?

The Cleveland Browns?? Since they reentered the NFL as an expansion team in 99, in 20 years they have had 9 general managers. They just fired Dorsey, so they will be looking to hire their 3rd GM in just the past 5 years.

Other teams are just as bad. Most NFL teams will have had 5-6 GM changes in the past 20 years. And the Pittsburgh Steelers have had just 3 GMs in the last 50 years.

And the team owner itself, huge for a head coach. How many teams have been bought and sold over the years? How many teams have that one family that maintains control and keeps it within the family, passes it down from father to son? That stability is so damn rare.

So, some of the failed coaches over the years on other teams, if they were in Pittsburgh, coaching on the most stabile franchise in all of sports, not having to worry about their GM being fired, not having to worry about they themselves being fired for having one bad year, wouldn't they be successful too???

All of this talk of how we as Steeler fans are spoiled to have Noll, Cowher and Tomlin as our heads coaches these past 50 years, how lucky we are, how outrageous to think that we would ever question their credentials! Are we lucky or were Chuck, Bill and Mike the true lucky ones???

Say Bill is not hired in 1992 to be the Steelers head coach, say he finally get his chance to be the Cleveland Browns head coach when they come back to the NFL in 1999, with Dwight Clark as his GM. How would that have gone down? Think Bill Cowher is destined for the Hall of Fame in that position, with that team??

You can do the same with Tomlin and Noll. They are all good, fine coaches, but circumstances, timing, luck can be everything. They all landed with the perfect organization that gave them everything they could ever possibly want to be successful.

I don't think any of this is news to Bill Cowher or Tomlin or Noll. They all knew how lucky they were, every single one of them, it was like they bought the winning lottery ticket when they were chosen by the Steelers. Making the Hall of Fame is like a formality, a foregone conclusion.
You make some really good points.

I'll add this: Noll took over a real loser of a team and organization- and completely reset it. None of this exists without Noll, imo.

Also, Bill took Noll's floundering team- a team that had been struggling for years- and made it into a championship contender almost immediately. Then rebuilt an entirely new roster into a championship team. If Cowher had stayed would they have gone to two more SBs. Would they have won both, none or one??

Tomlin took over Cowher's already established team and continued to win with it. That team has long ago aged away- with the exception of the QB. What do you have since??

Gentlemen, both of you make some excellent points.

I don't think you can quite lump The Emperor in with the others, as has been mentioned in the response to scunge, above. While Dan Rooney taking over more of the decision making from The Chief, his brother Art Jr. putting together an astute scouting department, and the hiring of Bill Nunn, along with the hiring of Coach Noll, all contributed to laying the groundwork of what we know now as "The Pittsburgh Steelers", the contribution of the Head Coach cannot be underestimated. No one wanted to come here, from players to coaches. Many of them are quoted as saying so. At the time Coach Noll was hired, there was no foundation, other than one of lovable losers. There was no guarantee that this group was going to do the historically great things that they did. They could have just as easily have failed as most of the former coaches, players and scouts did for this team since 1933 through 1968. This is the group that set the tone and the stage for what was to come for now over 50 years and counting.

Coaches Cowher and Tomlin did step into great situations. Coach Noll came in with a vision and turned around nearly 40 years of ineptitude and transformed it into over 50 years of intermittent championships (tied for most in the SB era), and perennial competitors. But, at that time, there was no guarantee or certainty that any of it would work. That it did is a testament to Coach Noll, Dan and Art Jr, and Bill Nunn, along with a group of players that refused to be denied, led of course by Mean Joe Greene.

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Post by CORE-TEN » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:58 pm

Scunge wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 pm
They are all good, fine coaches, but circumstances, timing, luck can be everything. They all landed with the perfect organization that gave them everything they could ever possibly want to be successful.
That pretty much applies to any profession or career. All of which in varying combinations determine and contribute to whatever level of success one achieves. Not taking anything away from Noll, but he had Paul Brown as a mentor and learned what it takes to be an excellent coach, coupled with his own abilities. But I agree that they had the environment to flourish, although Tomlin and Cowher already had the framework that Noll and Co. built.

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Post by Kodiak » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:54 pm

Cowher and Tomlin both inherited talented teams - the latter inherited a veteran, SB caliber team.

The big difference, aside from the QB, is that Cowher rebuilt that team at least 3 times while Tomlin has yet to do it once. Cowher won playoff games with 5 different QB's. And enough about not valuing the position - that analysis has been done before and there wasn't really anyone better Cowher could have gotten in the draft or FA (except Brady near the end, who went to a cheater and probably is a fraud himself).

IMO, Tomlin isn't on Cowher's level and may never be. Dismissing the cheater Belicheat and the couple of guys with HOF QB's, Cowher was far and away the most successful coach of his era. Yes, he absolutely deserves to be in the HOF.


Again, Payton/McCarthy/Tomlin are pretty much the same coach. All overrated riding the coattails of a HOF QB. One of those teams fired their "great" coach...and guess which team is still playing and quite possibly going back to the SB?
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Post by El Kabong » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:13 am

Kodiak wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:54 pm
Cowher and Tomlin both inherited talented teams - the latter inherited a veteran, SB caliber team.

The big difference, aside from the QB, is that Cowher rebuilt that team at least 3 times while Tomlin has yet to do it once. Cowher won playoff games with 5 different QB's. And enough about not valuing the position - that analysis has been done before and there wasn't really anyone better Cowher could have gotten in the draft or FA (except Brady near the end, who went to a cheater and probably is a fraud himself).

IMO, Tomlin isn't on Cowher's level and may never be. Dismissing the cheater Belicheat and the couple of guys with HOF QB's, Cowher was far and away the most successful coach of his era. Yes, he absolutely deserves to be in the HOF.


Again, Payton/McCarthy/Tomlin are pretty much the same coach. All overrated riding the coattails of a HOF QB. One of those teams fired their "great" coach...and guess which team is still playing and quite possibly going back to the SB?
Keeping in mind we weren't likely to make it to the AFCCG this year without Ben even if we'd fired Tomlin before the season...

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Post by SteelerDayTrader » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:01 am

Looking back on it....Cowher probably shoulda been in before now.....


92 = 11-5 1st AFCN Lost Div Buf AFC SB Rep
93 = 9-7 2nd AFCN Lost WC at Chiefs
94 = 12-4 1st AFCN Lost AFCC Chargers AFC SB Rep
95 = 11-5 1st ACFN Lost SB Cowboys
96 = 10-6 1st AFCN Lost Div at Cheats AFC SB Rep Trades for HOFer Bettis
97 = 11-5 1st AFCN Lost AFCC Broncos Lombardi winner

^^^^^ THAT is one HELLUVA run

Then the 3 supposedly "off" years :roll: :shock:

98 = 7-9 3rd AFCN Drafts HOF’ers Faneca and Ward
99 = 6-10 4th AFCN 6 team division Titans AFC SB Rep Jags 1st in AFCN beat Miami 62-7 in div lose AFCC to Titans
00 = 9-7 3rd AFCN 6 team division Titans most wins in NFL Ravens Lombardi winner

Then Cowher gets Kordell and Tommy within spitting distance of a Super bowl berth....until Tommy reverts to his true self...but true to form Cowher gets yet ANOTHER HOF'er

01 = 13-3 1st AFCN Lost AFCC Cheats Lombardi winner
02 = 10-5-1 1st AFCN Lost Div at Titans AFC SB Rep
03 = 6-10 3rd AFCN Drafts HOFer Polamalu

Then he drafts yet ANOTHER HOF'er and wins a Lombardi......and most unfortunately probably had his greatness cut WAY short in Pittsburgh due to his wife's cancer diagnosis

04 = 15-1 1st AFCN Lost AFCC Cheats Lombardi winner Drafts HOFer Roethlisberger
05 = 11-5 2nd AFCN Lombardi winner
06 = 8-8 3rd AFCN

On the whole ......only missed the playoffs 5 outta 15 years. 2 time Super Bowl rep and one time Lombardi winner

Thats pretty damn good

There isnt a single fan base/GM/owner in the NFL who would say no to that for the next 15

Damn few HOF HC's were ^^^^^ THAT successful over a 15yr run

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Post by Kodiak » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:53 am

El Kabong wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:13 am
Keeping in mind we weren't likely to make it to the AFCCG this year without Ben even if we'd fired Tomlin before the season...
Who knows what might have happened with a coach who wasn't satisfied with 8 wins....
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Post by Kodiak » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:59 am

SteelerDayTrader wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:01 am
There isnt a single fan base/GM/owner in the NFL who would say no to that for the next 15
While the lone shining star of Cowher's coaching tree may be the ignominious Marvin Lewis...at least Cowher HAS a coaching tree.

Seriously, the only coach of Tomlin's who got a HC job was an accident, and hell that's actually a Cowher guy. That's very telling. VERY telling.
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Post by El Kabong » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:59 pm

Kodiak wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:53 am
El Kabong wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:13 am
Keeping in mind we weren't likely to make it to the AFCCG this year without Ben even if we'd fired Tomlin before the season...
Who knows what might have happened with a coach who wasn't satisfied with 8 wins....
Oh, come on... :roll:

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Post by Scunge » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:10 am

Kodiak, yeah, I had this discussion a couple month back with a friend who didn't understand why I thought Cowher was better than Tomlin.

To me one of the great things about a head coach, or why he has greatness, is the assistants under him. Does he have an eye for coaching talent? Do assistant coaches under him rise above their station, become OCs, DCs, Head Coaches?

With Cowher, yeah, he did have a number of coaches all leave the team and become OCs, DCs, Head Coaches.

Dom Capers was our DC and then the Carolina Panthers came and made him their Head Coach.
Chan Gailey was our OC and the Dallas Cowboys came and made him their Head Coach.
Mike Mularkey was our OC and the Buffalo Bills came and made him their Head Coach.
Ken Whisenhunt was our OC and the Arizona Cardinals came and made him their Head Coach.
Marvin Lewis was our LB coach and the Baltimore Ravens came and made him their Defensive Coordinator.
Tom Clements was our QB coach and then the Buffalo Bills came and made him their Offensive Coordinator.

Cowher gave Ron Zook his first NFL job as a Special Teams coach, he was here 3 seasons, then KC came and made him their Secondary Coach, and then the very next year the New Orleans Saints made him their DC.

Tim Lewis was given his first NFL job by Cowher as the Defensive Backs coach, he then became our DC for 4 years. When LeBeau came back Lewis would move to the NY Giants to be their DC for 3 years.

I am sure I am missing a few other coaches, but the point is that Cowher was able to build his coaching staff and they were successful and other teams noticed and came and poached them away every chance they got.

With Tomlin?? Show me a coach that he HIRED that has gone on to greater things, that went from a position coach to a OC or DC job, or a DC or OC that went to become a Head Coach. And for the purposes of this exercise, I am not talking about college jobs. I pointed out how Cowher's assistants went on to bigger and better things in the NFL.

Show me an assistant coach hired by Tomlin that has gone to to do anything else in the NFL.

Bruce Arians?? He was hired by Cowher.

Ray Horton was a secondary coach who went on to become a Defensive Coordinator under Tomlin's watch, but he was hired by Cowher.

Cowher has a nice coaching tree, Tomlin has a sawed off stump.

That to me is one of the biggest differences in the two coaches.

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Post by Kodiak » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:14 am

El Kabong wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:59 pm
Oh, come on... :roll:
It's easy to achieve one's goal....when that goal is mediocrity.
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Post by Kodiak » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:21 am

Scunge wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:10 am
Cowher has a nice coaching tree, Tomlin has a sawed off stump.
And what that tells me is what we're doing, on both sides of the ball, is unimaginative and unimpressive. If any of our coaches were doing anything above average in terms of scheme, then at least a few of them would have been poached. Obviously not talking about Lebeau or Munchak.

So that's a pretty big data point for what I've come to believe that talent, not coaching, has carried this team. If Tomlin is such a good coach, then why aren't younger guys on his staff learning, growing and excelling?
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