OT: Kobe Bryant 4 others Dead in Helicopter Crash

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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant 4 others Dead in Helicopter Crash

Post by LakecrestSteeler » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:51 pm

Usually you have to wait to hear what happened.

This guy pretty much sums up the NTSB’s future findings I predict.

The answer essentially the same day.

How did it happen? Here is the answer:

https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8



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Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:17 pm

Yeah, without any info-- the moment I heard the news I thought about the fog... it was unusually thick on Sun AM. And the fact that he was supposed to be following the highway and got mixed up at an interchange where it's hard to tell which way the main road goes... I mean, I don't know that much about flying helicopters, but I sure think if you lose track of your bearings and the surrounding terrain is anything but a dry lake bed, I think you have to admit defeat of VFR and go up in altitude above the clouds, ask for Instrument guidance and be done with it. Dropping down to 1300 ft altitude in that area without knowing 100% where you are is suicidal.

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Post by BouldernBun » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:37 am

The pilots credentials seem impeccable. Just tragic. Man..You never know.

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Post by Steelersfan » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:54 am

This is all speculation on my part, but those of you faulting the pilot are probably off on your assumptions. He's a pilot, but an employee (with bills to pay & mouths to feed) of a contract company. I'm sure his supervisors didn't tell him "The weather (visibility) appears below "mins" keep it on the ground, to hell with this clients trip/wishes". I'm sure he was "directed" to get this particular client on his way.

Also just rumor & opinion, but rumor says the pilot asked for IFR flight following, but would of had to climb to a higher altitude to get into radar coverage to receive a transponder code. Either he didn't climb or couldn't climb, he wasn't being flight followed it appears. Remaining VFR he still HAS to remain "Clear of Clouds". Meaning you can't fly into clouds/fog/IFR conditions while VFR. He had to be too low for radar coverage, but higher than the coastal fog layer. Flying above the fog, there is NO WAY he was following ANYTHING on the ground including a highway. The CA coastal fog is not like most fog people know of. It's a blanket, impenetrable. You can't see through it and its NOT patchy, no matter 500 MSL & below, 1000 & below, 1500 & below. Your not in VFR clear vis conditions unless your above it.

Most "self proclaimed witnesses" stated they heard a sputtering engine not a smooth running engine. My opinion, engine failure caused a decent into the fog. Once in the fog, he got disoriented. Didn't know up from down. Rumor said it appears impact was stronger than a helicopter falling out of the air. If that's true, seems to indicate the copter was somewhat flown into the hillside with some thrust.

Whatever happened, it's a tragedy A tragedy for all effected but even more-so for the family of Mother, Father and a child. How devastating....


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Post by bradshaw2ben » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:17 am

"Most "self proclaimed witnesses" stated they heard a sputtering engine not a smooth running engine. My opinion, engine failure caused a decent into the fog. "

IDK,. man, I trust the long-time audio engineer, who said there was no sputtering, just engine/rotor noise and then thump, "like it impacted rotors first." That guy gave a detailed and blow by blow account of what he heard--a professional listener.

Also, the people who were 200ft away from impact said they heard it, then it came out of fog and 'immediately' into the hillside. Actually, there's a transponder record of every part of the trip, if I read that correctly.

I think he was following the hwy and then got off track-- that's pretty clear. What happened after that to get him up into the fog and turned into the hillside... hard to say.

https://izodnews.com/2020/01/27/kobe-br ... wn-danger/

"For the first time, though, the helicopter was no longer flying over the flat expanse of dense urban Los Angeles. Here, at the suburban fringes, the terrain was hilly and climbing. To make matters worse, the canyon that stretched to the south has a tendency to funnel in the maritime fog. That morning, said Calabasas resident Sharon Stepanosky — who lives less than a mile from the crash site and who happens, coincidentally, to be my cousin — a thick fog had lain over the area, with visibility no more than a few hundred feet. “It was completely overcast and visibility was not good,” she said. By 9:45 a.m., rising temperatures had driven away the fog from the majority of the town, but thick low clouds still wrapped around the slopes just a few hundred feet higher.

As the helicopter approached Calabasas, it was less than 500 feet above the ground. Perhaps wanting to put a safety margin between himself and the increasingly hilly terrain, the pilot began a brisk climb, ascending nearly 1,000 feet in 36 seconds. This put it very close to the bottom of the cloud layer reported at that time at nearby Van Nuys Airport.

We may never know for sure if the helicopter had indeed entered the clouds. But if it did, then it had crossed a kind of invisible line. It was now engaged in what air-crash investigators call “continued VFR flight into instrument meteorological conditions.” Basically, a pilot dependent on seeing the ground to stay oriented can no longer see the ground. Amid a sudden whiteout, disorientation can come surprisingly quickly. “When you get in the soup, your senses don’t work,” Cline, the aviation professor, said. “For me, I always feel like I’m falling to the right. Other people might feel like they’re falling to the left, or climbing.”

A trained pilot can stay right-side up by paying attention to the instruments on his panel. But at low altitude over Calabasas, Bryant’s pilot also had another problem. He knew that the ground ahead was rising, and he couldn’t see it. To avoid hitting it, he could keep climbing, and hope that he’d gain altitude faster than the ground underneath him. Or he could slow to a stop and descend vertically until he popped out of the bottom of the cloud.

Based on the subsequent track of the aircraft, however, it seems that the pilot decided to take a third option. According to data transmitted by its transponder, at 15 seconds past 9:45 a.m. the pilot banked to the left, then dove. Why? We can never get into his head to know for sure. But based on my own experience flying light aircraft, the sudden intensification of danger creates of sense of mental overload in which it’s nearly impossible to rationally weigh one’s various options. Instead, one takes the most immediate and obvious choice. In this case, that meant trying to get back into clear air by diving back under the cloud layer while pulling a hard 180 to retreat from the dangerous terrain.

Eighteen seconds after beginning the turn, the helicopter had lost 800 feet and returned to an easterly heading. But what the pilot had failed to reckon with is that the ground rose not only straight ahead, but on the sides as well. The S-76B had impacted a hillside above the Los Virgenes Municipal Water District facility at a speed of 170 mph."

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:12 am

That guy is the Kobe of witnesses. You very rarely see someone that sharp, detailed, articulate and genial. I'm guessing from the TWA cap he has quite a bit of aviation knowledge outside sound engineering. The kind of guy you'd hire in a minute. Has he ever coached football? Just sayin.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:29 pm

When I compare this to Clemente, I get blank stares. Sadly I also get blank stares when I mention Stevie Ray Vaughan and that was in 1990.

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Post by fractalsteel » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:38 pm

Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:29 pm
When I compare this to Clemente, I get blank stares. Sadly I also get blank stares when I mention Stevie Ray Vaughan and that was in 1990.
I saw SRV live two months before that fateful ride. Rumor has it that Clapton gave up his seat to SRV in that copter that crashed.

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Post by COR-TEN » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:05 pm

fractalsteel wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:38 pm
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:29 pm
When I compare this to Clemente, I get blank stares. Sadly I also get blank stares when I mention Stevie Ray Vaughan and that was in 1990.
I saw SRV live two months before that fateful ride. Rumor has it that Clapton gave up his seat to SRV in that copter that crashed.
I saw him the fall before 1990 in PGH at the palumbo center. Jeff Beck was the opening act. The house was a rockin'. Wasn't aware that clapton gave him his seat on that chopper ride.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:15 pm

Yeah the other victims were Clapton bandmates.

For those to young to know, this is what we lost that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe3G7p1Z-xU

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Post by fractalsteel » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:20 pm

CORE-TEN wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:05 pm
fractalsteel wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:38 pm
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:29 pm
When I compare this to Clemente, I get blank stares. Sadly I also get blank stares when I mention Stevie Ray Vaughan and that was in 1990.
I saw SRV live two months before that fateful ride. Rumor has it that Clapton gave up his seat to SRV in that copter that crashed.
I saw him the fall before 1990 in PGH at the palumbo center. Jeff Beck was the opening act. The house was a rockin'. Wasn't aware that clapton gave him his seat on that chopper ride.
I was at that show. I think it was 1988 though. The sound was good that night and I believe it was due to the big curtains they hung all over the venue.

I freaked out when Beck played 'Blue Wind', my favorite song by him.


Don't forget, Stevie used heavy wire and she still was able to bend such with ferocity.

Edit: it was 1989

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:28 pm

I remember when a friend of mine and I heard the news in 1990, my first comment was "why couldn't it be Milli Vanilli instead of an irreplaceable talent".

By the way dig that Bonham like drumming in the vid.

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Post by fractalsteel » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:34 pm

When I heard the news I gathered with some local Central PA musicians at a bar and we stayed in the back room listening to all his music getting hammered beyond comprehension.

It hurt as badly as when John Bonham passed.

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Post by COR-TEN » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:40 pm

fractalsteel wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:20 pm
CORE-TEN wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:05 pm
fractalsteel wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:38 pm

I saw SRV live two months before that fateful ride. Rumor has it that Clapton gave up his seat to SRV in that copter that crashed.
I saw him the fall before 1990 in PGH at the palumbo center. Jeff Beck was the opening act. The house was a rockin'. Wasn't aware that clapton gave him his seat on that chopper ride.
I was at that show. I think it was 1988 though. The sound was good that night and I believe it was due to the big curtains they hung all over the venue.

I freaked out when Beck played 'Blue Wind', my favorite song by him.


Don't forget, Stevie used heavy wire and she still was able to bend such with ferocity.

Edit: it was 1989
I remember it was before 1990 as I left PGH for NYC in Feb of '90. Won't forget the atmosphere in the arena. Energy from top to bottom that you felt in your toes/ made every hair on your body stand up straight.

Vaughn's fingers were beasts. Can't compare Vaughn's string gauge to van halen. Two completely different picking styles.

Not to mention pick weight. Van Halen used picks that were flimsy as hell for speed. Vaughn used fucking bones. And it was reflected in the sound.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm

"Don't forget, Stevie used heavy wire and she still was able to bend such with ferocity."

And in that vid, he still breaks the fourth string with his mighty fingers and plays behind his back.

I wonder what number he would hit on a Jamar dynamometer of grip strength.

I couldn't understand why Zep would break up instead of just getting another drummer when Bonham went (apparently forty shots of vodka). Then I listened on headphones and thought, yeah, they did the right thing. GOAT rock drummer.

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Post by fractalsteel » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:51 pm

I think Zep was on the way to breaking up anyway. Page and Plants relationship was nearly in ruins. Page was so deep into horse that JPJ had to produce 'In Through the Out Door'.
They peaked with 'Physical Graffiti' IMO.
Agreed about GOAT rock drummer.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:57 pm

Yeah, I agree the golden years were 1970-1975.

I can't imagine Jimmy Page's five year affair with a 15 year old would get blown off these days either.

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Post by fractalsteel » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:02 am

Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:57 pm
Yeah, I agree the golden years were 1970-1975.

I can't imagine Jimmy Page's five year affair with a 15 year old would get blown off these days either.
Ever read 'Stairway to Heaven' by Richard Cole, who was the enforcer for the band?
If half the stories are true and they pulled that shit today the whole band would be in jail. Prison Blues.

Page has 45 years on his current girlfriend, Scarlett Sabet.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:06 am

On the drug charges alone.

Is it true that Plant's undersize concert shirts he wore open were usually from the groupie he banged the night before?

The only reason I'd ever want to get superrich is so I could fly on their private plane. I heard that was the inspiration for Austin Powers' shagcraft.

They've stood the test of time. I've been on a bit of a Zep tear lately banging it loud in the car. I like them more now than I did then as I thought they were a little too Dungeons and Dragons. When I understood it was just Plant's Welsh mythology thing, I kind of dug it.

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Post by fractalsteel » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:29 am

Never heard that about Plant and groupie clothes share. Page did don a quasi Stormtrooper outfit on a show in 1977.

Zep must be listened to loudly.

One of the loudest bands I ever saw live.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:33 am

The only lead singer to ever cock strut on stage like Plant was Elvis. Jagger moved and danced but Plant's pose was I'm a peacock who needs to be blown. And they obliged. Wonder the age of the girl he got this from:

Image

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Post by franco>madden » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:16 am

Not necessarily dis-agreeing with the Led Zeppelin and Bonham-love here, but in real-time (1970 - 78), for my money, the greatest rock & roll band crown was sitting firmly atop The Who, featuring of course the best-loved and most brilliantly madcap rock drummer ever, Keith Moon (who back in '68, coincidentally, came up with the name Led Zeppelin for Bonham & company's band then known as The New Yardbirds)

Don't get me wrong -- love me plenty of Zep, from When the Levee Breaks all the way through Page's masterwork of production, Houses of the Holy (and maybe 40% of Physical Graffiti) before their downturn. However, IMO Who's Next trumps anything in Zep's studio catalog (or anyone else's, for that matter), and I'd argue probably Quadrophenia and Tommy as well, and hearing both bands live in the mid-70s it was no contest. I've seen videos of Zeppelin on certain nights they definitely had it going, but Pete & Roger and The 'oo were just f'ing incredible almost every time I saw them live during that stretch. Damn I miss the 1970s :( :lol:

And speaking of doing stuff that would get people arrested nowadays (don't get any ideas, Lynch, Moon was making a fucking joke) ...

Image

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Post by fractalsteel » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:10 pm

franco>madden wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:16 am
Not necessarily dis-agreeing with the Led Zeppelin and Bonham-love here, but in real-time (1970 - 78), for my money, the greatest rock & roll band crown was sitting firmly atop The Who, featuring of course the best-loved and most brilliantly madcap rock drummer ever, Keith Moon (who back in '68, coincidentally, came up with the name Led Zeppelin for Bonham & company's band then known as The New Yardbirds)

Don't get me wrong -- love me plenty of Zep, from When the Levee Breaks all the way through Page's masterwork of production, Houses of the Holy (and maybe 40% of Physical Graffiti) before their downturn. However, IMO Who's Next trumps anything in Zep's studio catalog (or anyone else's, for that matter), and I'd argue probably Quadrophenia and Tommy as well, and hearing both bands live in the mid-70s it was no contest. I've seen videos of Zeppelin on certain nights they definitely had it going, but Pete & Roger and The 'oo were just f'ing incredible almost every time I saw them live during that stretch. Damn I miss the 1970s :( :lol:

And speaking of doing stuff that would get people arrested nowadays (don't get any ideas, Lynch, Moon was making a fucking joke) ...

Image
Good stuff Franco!

'Live at Leeds' is IMO the greatest live album made. Sheer power throughout. Entwistle and Moon are just sick on that work. 'My Generation' deserves to be played at 11 from that album.

The Who never had Zep's PR power and because of that they didn't get the credit they rightfully deserved in the 70's.
I love 'Who's Next'. My complaint with The Who is that their sound really never changed. Where as Zep was always coming up with new ways to showcase their music.
Funny thing, I think 'Houses of the Holy' is Zeps weakest album. Sounds like it was made under water. Then again, most of the albums songs are the bands best stuff live. 'No Quarter' being the prime example.

I miss the 70's as well.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:56 pm

Tommy and Quadrophenia were epic. I can't argue with Moon and Entwhistle as GOAT rhythm section but they are neck and neck with Zeppelin. I would like to see both those musicals remade because the 1970s movie versions of both were kind of half-assed. Tarantino doing Tommy and Guy Ritchie directing Quadrophenia would be amazing. I saw a Broadway production of Tommy many years ago and I thought it was one of the best shows I have ever seen.

Starting 1969 the Who put out Tommy, Who's Next, Quadrophenia and Live at Leeds along with a few others. In the same period LZ put out 1-4, the Mick Taylor era Stones Let It Beed, Exile and Sticky Fingers, and the Allmans put out Fillmore East, Eat a Peach and Brothers and Sisters, while Bowie put out Ziggy, Hunky Dory, Aladdin Sane, The Man Who Sold the World, etc. Amazing talents putting out amazing 33s and in the case of Zeppelin not even releasing singles because the albums were so great.

You could just listen to those from 1969-1974 and be in a state of complete bliss. I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again. Live at Leeds and Fillmore East are the GOAT live albums.

Funny but true trivia question. In 1969 the Stones released Let It Bleed, the who released Tommy and the Beatles released Abbey Road. What was the number one hit single that year?

PS If the Yardbirds had one less virtuoso guitarist and Pete Townshend, could they have been the greatest group ever? Tarantino has this funny idea in Deathproof about him joining Dave Dean, Dizzy, Beaky, Mick and Tich but they're C-list compared to the Yardbirds.

And let's not forget that that same period was the golden age of classic R&B.

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Post by Jobu » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:48 pm

Funny but true trivia question. In 1969 the Stones released Let It Bleed, the who released Tommy and the Beatles released Abbey Road. What was the number one hit single that year?
Sugar Sugar by the Archies. :lol:
Yes...I was 12 years old. Comic books and cartoons were my life. :mrgreen:

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:56 pm

Bingo. You win.

A song by a group that doesn't even exist.

What we may remember as mainstream was really not quite mainstream.

Adam Carrolla points out that Rosalita in 1973 peaked at 58 or something on the charts when Having My Baby was parked at number one.

Mainstream R&B of that era was really really good i.e. Gladys Knight, Roberta Flack all the Gamble and Huff songs.

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Post by COR-TEN » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:33 pm

Don't mean to interrupt all this music stuff, but the pilot in this crash was apparently not approved to fly in foggy or IFR. Or didn't have the experience to warrant the company from clearing him to fly outside of VFR.

And how the fuck can you talk about sixties music without mention of Jimi Hendrix? He actually wanted Entwhistle to be his bassist. Had to settle for Noel Redding instead. But the diversity in sound and creativity 45-55 years ago is unparalleled.

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Post by Dan Smith--BYU » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:34 pm

Because we were talking about 69-74 but Hendrix was great too, just a little earlier like Cream and the Brian Jones Stones. Hendrix sidemen were top notch.

The only guy who could do Hendrix justice was SRV twenty years later.

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Post by COR-TEN » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:07 pm

The Jimi Hendrix Experience

Are You Experienced (1967)
Axis: Bold as Love (1967)
Electric Ladyland (1968)

Jimi Hendrix/Band of Gypsys
Band of Gypsys (1970)

Granted, he died in '70, but JFC, it would be remiss to omit his achievements in the development of R&R. Gigantic, colossal, you name it. His next project lined up before his death was supposedly a collaboration with Miles Davis. No disrespect to Led Zeppelin, the Stones, or The Who.

Imagine that for a second. In the '70's after Bitches Brew, and before We Want Miles in '82 - which I saw live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ2d0BBClr8

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