Does Tomlin Pull a Shanahan?

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Orangesteel
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Does Tomlin Pull a Shanahan?

Post by Orangesteel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:31 am

Biggest fallout/gripe floating around the interweb right now about the Super Bowl is Shanahan’s decision to completely botch the 9ers final possession of the first half. It was an odd combination of clock gaming and vaginitis in the biggest game of the season - a chance to win a record tying sixth Lombardi.

Still doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You wanna run it out, run it out. But then they hit the long crosser over the middle and the long sideline pass to Kittle that was called back for a very questionable OPI.

Question is: what would Mike have done in that situation? I really am having a hard time understanding why Shanahan was so comfortable on a 10-10 tie when your team has all of the momentum and had shut down the best QB in the league to that point. Why not run the 2min drill? Isn’t that why you paid Jimmy G all them millions?

Why would you need him to make those throws when they are down in the last minutes of the game, but don’t trust him to run the drill with 1:30 and all your time outs at the end of the first half?

I dunno. This screams Tomlin to me in a lot of ways. But Tomlin has been a bit better about trying to score at the end of halves even though his clock management is still a damn shitshow.



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Post by 955876 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am

It was bad.

However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?

If he does shame on him. But that remains to be seen.

We’ve seen Tomlin make the same mistakes over & over & over & over again and still not realize he’s making mistakes. Tomlin didn’t get the heat he gets now in those early years of his HC tenure. I’m sure if 12 years from now Shanahan can’t figure out how to manage a clock he will catch flak for it as well.

At least with him he has all those positives in terms of stellar scheme and play design.

Tomlin not so much.

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Post by Steelafan77 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:28 pm

Let's talk when Tomlin gets this team BACK to the Super Bowl. Until then... :|

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Post by Kodiak » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:26 pm

955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
I’m sure if 12 years from now Shanahan can’t figure out how to manage a clock he will catch flak for it as well.
If Shanahan is still doing this 8 years from now, heck even 5, he won't still be coaching SF.
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Post by jeemie » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:33 pm

Orangesteel wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:31 am
Biggest fallout/gripe floating around the interweb right now about the Super Bowl is Shanahan’s decision to completely botch the 9ers final possession of the first half. It was an odd combination of clock gaming and vaginitis in the biggest game of the season - a chance to win a record tying sixth Lombardi.

Still doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You wanna run it out, run it out. But then they hit the long crosser over the middle and the long sideline pass to Kittle that was called back for a very questionable OPI.

Question is: what would Mike have done in that situation? I really am having a hard time understanding why Shanahan was so comfortable on a 10-10 tie when your team has all of the momentum and had shut down the best QB in the league to that point. Why not run the 2min drill? Isn’t that why you paid Jimmy G all them millions?

Why would you need him to make those throws when they are down in the last minutes of the game, but don’t trust him to run the drill with 1:30 and all your time outs at the end of the first half?

I dunno. This screams Tomlin to me in a lot of ways. But Tomlin has been a bit better about trying to score at the end of halves even though his clock management is still a damn shitshow.
I think B2B pointed out that last year (2018), the Steelers were one of the top teams in scoring to close out the half.

I get on Tomlin for a lot of things, but he would have tried to score.

He’s never turtled away a first half with that much time the way Shanny did.

It was doubly egregious because the Niners got the ball to start the second half.

When you can get two consecutive possessions like that you have to try and score on the first one.

It’s why deferring your decision after winning the coin toss is done in the first place!
Last edited by jeemie on Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Pabst » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm

955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?
Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?

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Post by Jobu » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm

Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm
955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?
Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?
Yep...but that one is more on the head coach and DC.

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Post by stillcajun » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm

Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm
955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?
Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?

Yes! Yes he was

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Post by CORE-TEN » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:22 pm

It wasn't a questionable OPI, imo. Kittle pushed off twice.

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Post by Orangesteel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:23 pm

I still can’t imagine being up 28-3 in the third quarter of the Super Bowl and losing. That one boggles the mind. Atlanta still hasn’t recovered.

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Post by Jobu » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:24 pm

CORE-TEN wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:22 pm
It wasn't a questionable OPI, imo. Kittle pushed off twice.
Agreed...pretty much text book OPI.
But you know, Kittle is the best thing since sliced bread...pretty much walks on water around here. :lol:

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Post by 955876 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:49 pm

Kodiak wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:26 pm
955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
I’m sure if 12 years from now Shanahan can’t figure out how to manage a clock he will catch flak for it as well.
If Shanahan is still doing this 8 years from now, heck even 5, he won't still be coaching SF.
Tomlin will still be here though...

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Post by 955876 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:53 pm

And I thought it was OPI as well. Clearly pushed off. Now is it always called? No.

But that’s every NFL game every week.

Niner fans might even reach the level of Seattle crying after XL.

Remember the TD that was taken off the board after the Seahawk defender clearly extended his arm and pushed off??

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Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm

jeemie wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:33 pm
Orangesteel wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:31 am
Biggest fallout/gripe floating around the interweb right now about the Super Bowl is Shanahan’s decision to completely botch the 9ers final possession of the first half. It was an odd combination of clock gaming and vaginitis in the biggest game of the season - a chance to win a record tying sixth Lombardi.

Still doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You wanna run it out, run it out. But then they hit the long crosser over the middle and the long sideline pass to Kittle that was called back for a very questionable OPI.

Question is: what would Mike have done in that situation? I really am having a hard time understanding why Shanahan was so comfortable on a 10-10 tie when your team has all of the momentum and had shut down the best QB in the league to that point. Why not run the 2min drill? Isn’t that why you paid Jimmy G all them millions?

Why would you need him to make those throws when they are down in the last minutes of the game, but don’t trust him to run the drill with 1:30 and all your time outs at the end of the first half?

I dunno. This screams Tomlin to me in a lot of ways. But Tomlin has been a bit better about trying to score at the end of halves even though his clock management is still a damn shitshow.
I think B2B pointed out that last year (2018), the Steelers were one of the top teams in scoring to close out the half.

I get on Tomlin for a lot of things, but he would have tried to score.

He’s never turtles away a first half with that much time the way Shanny did.

It was doubly egregious because the Niners got the ball to start the second half.

When you can get two consecutive possessions like that you have to try and score on the first one.

It’s why deferring your decision after winning the coin toss is done in the first place!
Jeemie it was for point differential in last 2 minutes of halves and IIRC, it was for both 2017 and 2018.

As I said in the SB thread, Shanahan's choice was an extreme example of Tomlin's normal 2 min strategy: 1st priority is to keep the other team from scoring, 2nd priority is to get points of your own, 3rd is to get a TD rather than a FG. That strategy can be maddening, but it seems to work for Tomlin/Ben. Tomlin is, however, more interested in scoring some points than Shanahan appeared to be.

Now, I would have liked it a bit more if Shanny had been a little more aggressive in those first couple of plays after the predictable 1st down run. Truthfully, if not for the at best iffy call on the OPI, he achieves priority #1 and #2, and then has the ball to start Q3
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Post by jeemie » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:05 pm

Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm
955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?
Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?
Two straight pass attempts while in FG range when they could have burned clock and established an 11 point lead.

Every coach that has gone up against Belichick except Coughlin and Pederson had stupid panicky brain farts.

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Post by 955876 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:06 pm

That strategy can be maddening, but it seems to work for Tomlin/Ben.
Can you define “work”?

I see a team with three meager playoff wins over a decade. Mixed in with years like 2018 where they completely missed the postseason when it was served up on a platter for them to take.

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Post by jeemie » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:08 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm
jeemie wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:33 pm
Orangesteel wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:31 am
Biggest fallout/gripe floating around the interweb right now about the Super Bowl is Shanahan’s decision to completely botch the 9ers final possession of the first half. It was an odd combination of clock gaming and vaginitis in the biggest game of the season - a chance to win a record tying sixth Lombardi.

Still doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You wanna run it out, run it out. But then they hit the long crosser over the middle and the long sideline pass to Kittle that was called back for a very questionable OPI.

Question is: what would Mike have done in that situation? I really am having a hard time understanding why Shanahan was so comfortable on a 10-10 tie when your team has all of the momentum and had shut down the best QB in the league to that point. Why not run the 2min drill? Isn’t that why you paid Jimmy G all them millions?

Why would you need him to make those throws when they are down in the last minutes of the game, but don’t trust him to run the drill with 1:30 and all your time outs at the end of the first half?

I dunno. This screams Tomlin to me in a lot of ways. But Tomlin has been a bit better about trying to score at the end of halves even though his clock management is still a damn shitshow.
I think B2B pointed out that last year (2018), the Steelers were one of the top teams in scoring to close out the half.

I get on Tomlin for a lot of things, but he would have tried to score.

He’s never turtles away a first half with that much time the way Shanny did.

It was doubly egregious because the Niners got the ball to start the second half.

When you can get two consecutive possessions like that you have to try and score on the first one.

It’s why deferring your decision after winning the coin toss is done in the first place!
Jeemie it was for point differential in last 2 minutes of halves and IIRC, it was for both 2017 and 2018.

As I said in the SB thread, Shanahan's choice was an extreme example of Tomlin's normal 2 min strategy: 1st priority is to keep the other team from scoring, 2nd priority is to get points of your own, 3rd is to get a TD rather than a FG. That strategy can be maddening, but it seems to work for Tomlin/Ben. Tomlin is, however, more interested in scoring some points than Shanahan appeared to be.

Now, I would have liked it a bit more if Shanny had been a little more aggressive in those first couple of plays after the predictable 1st down run. Truthfully, if not for the at best iffy call on the OPI, he achieves priority #1 and #2, and then has the ball to start Q3
I do not believe Tomlin would have let the clock run down after the Chiefs failed to convert on 3rd down.

I could be wrong...maybe you have examples where he did that.

I agree with your assessment of Tomlin’s strategy although I would say it’s closer to 1a and 1b than 1 and 2. I think he highly values scoring points...especially if he’s starting the third quarter with the ball.

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Post by Pabst » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:08 pm

Jobu wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm
Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm
955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?
Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?
Yep...but that one is more on the head coach and DC.
So who called two consecutive pass plays after Atlanta had it 2nd down at the New England 23 with 4 minutes left?

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Post by Orangesteel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:34 pm

955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:53 pm
And I thought it was OPI as well. Clearly pushed off. Now is it always called? No.

But that’s every NFL game every week.

Niner fans might even reach the level of Seattle crying after XL.

Remember the TD that was taken off the board after the Seahawk defender clearly extended his arm and pushed off??
That was not even close to the same as what happened on Sunday. In XL, that was the WR and defender practically standing still in the back of the end zone, Hasselbeck sees the WR and the WR uses TWO hands to push the CB off-balance and backward on his way to an easy reception.

Kittle and Sorenson were both sprinting down the field hand fighting the whole time. I understand why they called it, but I just don’t think that is any different than most downfield sideline throws where the coverage is OK, but not great. Sorenson was beat and was trying to make up ground. He wasn’t going to break that pass up.

Certainly didn’t cost the 9ers the game, but a huge call. Only stupid ass Seahawk fans would argue the call in XL was bad. That was clear as day OPI. Can’t extend both arms and push the defender backward when both players are basically standing still.

If anything, 9ers gripe is Saints gripe; why would Kyle Rudolph not get called for PI in the Wildcard round but Kittle get called in the Super Bowl? Almost identical hand fighting.

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Post by Jobu » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:42 pm

Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:08 pm
Jobu wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm
Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm


Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?
Yep...but that one is more on the head coach and DC.
So who called two consecutive pass plays after Atlanta had it 2nd down at the New England 23 with 4 minutes left?
All the head coach has to say is...turtle time.

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Post by CORE-TEN » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:48 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm
Truthfully, if not for the at best iffy call on the OPI, he achieves priority #1 and #2, and then has the ball to start Q3
How exactly was it iffy?

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Post by Orangesteel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:53 pm

CORE-TEN wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:48 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm
Truthfully, if not for the at best iffy call on the OPI, he achieves priority #1 and #2, and then has the ball to start Q3
How exactly was it iffy?
Because that is not called as much as it is called. It is wildly inconsistent. See what Kyle Rudolph did in the Wildcard game @ New Orleans. And that play won the game and eliminated the Saints.

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Post by 955876 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:35 pm

Remember when one of our defenders was called for roughing the passer and all he ultimately did was pull down the QBs sock?

Officiating in the NFL is atrocious across the board.

I just expect some bullshit calls each time I watch a game

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Post by lifelongsteel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:38 pm

It was clear throughout the playoffs that Shanahan did not trust Jimmy. Add to that the 50%+ likelihood that the niners would be pinned inside their own 10, and the dynamic nature of the chiefs O and you can understand the move. Maybe not agree, but understand.

In any case the Niners had the game exactly where they wanted it and still lost. Jimmy really shit the bed. The miss to Sanders was huge obviously, but he had some other terrible throws and poor reads. As smart as Shanahan is as an OC I was surprised he couldn't pull out a few first downs up 10 in the 4th. Find a way to get the ball to Deebo and Mostert on the move.

FWIW i think Tomlin's game management has improved dramatically over the past 4-5 years. He was terrible. Now he's middle of the pack in this regard, if you will.

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Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:15 pm

CORE-TEN wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:48 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm
Truthfully, if not for the at best iffy call on the OPI, he achieves priority #1 and #2, and then has the ball to start Q3
How exactly was it iffy?
Almost never called, especially in postseason. I didn't think he gained sn advantage from it, since it was more of reaching out to feel the defender than it was shove. The defender was already DOA on the play. Anyway, see the Minnesota - New Orleans ending for how that's usually officiated, and be sure to note that they reviewed that Rudolph TD in NY, too.
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Post by Donnie Brasco » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:55 pm

lifelongsteel wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:38 pm
It was clear throughout the playoffs that Shanahan did not trust Jimmy. Add to that the 50%+ likelihood that the niners would be pinned inside their own 10, and the dynamic nature of the chiefs O and you can understand the move. Maybe not agree, but understand.

In any case the Niners had the game exactly where they wanted it and still lost. Jimmy really shit the bed. The miss to Sanders was huge obviously, but he had some other terrible throws and poor reads. As smart as Shanahan is as an OC I was surprised he couldn't pull out a few first downs up 10 in the 4th. Find a way to get the ball to Deebo and Mostert on the move.

FWIW i think Tomlin's game management has improved dramatically over the past 4-5 years. He was terrible. Now he's middle of the pack in this regard, if you will.
Winner winner

Tomlin trusts Ben, so yea he's gonna let him get points

Shanahan didn't trust Jimmy G (probably rightly so). Was likely instructing him to just not turn it over

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Post by CORE-TEN » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:15 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:15 pm
CORE-TEN wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:48 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm
Truthfully, if not for the at best iffy call on the OPI, he achieves priority #1 and #2, and then has the ball to start Q3
How exactly was it iffy?
Almost never called, especially in postseason. I didn't think he gained sn advantage from it, since it was more of reaching out to feel the defender than it was shove. The defender was already DOA on the play. Anyway, see the Minnesota - New Orleans ending for how that's usually officiated, and be sure to note that they reviewed that Rudolph TD in NY, too.
Whether it gets called is another discussion. I agree the officiating is wildly inconsistent. But I clearly saw the defender get pushed back, twice, giving him even more cushion. /shrug. The first push may have been to feel him out, but the second definitely had an effect, right before the ball arrived.

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Post by jeemie » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:53 pm

CORE-TEN wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:15 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:15 pm
CORE-TEN wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:48 pm
How exactly was it iffy?
Almost never called, especially in postseason. I didn't think he gained sn advantage from it, since it was more of reaching out to feel the defender than it was shove. The defender was already DOA on the play. Anyway, see the Minnesota - New Orleans ending for how that's usually officiated, and be sure to note that they reviewed that Rudolph TD in NY, too.
Whether it gets called is another discussion. I agree the officiating is wildly inconsistent. But I clearly saw the defender get pushed back, twice, giving him even more cushion. /shrug. The first push may have been to feel him out, but the second definitely had an effect, right before the ball arrived.
It was clear OPI to me as well...it should be called more often.

Maybe it will...I can almost feel a shift of the game back to defense.

I think people realized Super Bowls like LII are actually as boring as shit. 1,000+ yards of offense and scoring in every drive, so the winner is who has the ball last? That’s Arena Football

To me the most exciting play of that game was Brandon Graham stripping Tom Brady (well maybe Philly Philly too).

I sense officials, at least in big games, are starting to let defenses play.

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Post by Obviously » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:23 am

Jobu wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm
Pabst wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:55 pm
955876 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 am
However, does Shanahan keep repeating those same type of mistakes for the next 10 plus years over and over?
Wasn't Shanahan the OC for the Falcons when they blew a 25 point lead?
Yep...but that one is more on the head coach and DC.
I dunno. That offensive play calling toward the end when all the Falcons needed to do was run the ball was egregious.
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Post by R_S » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:13 pm

jeemie wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:53 pm
CORE-TEN wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:15 pm
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:15 pm


Almost never called, especially in postseason. I didn't think he gained sn advantage from it, since it was more of reaching out to feel the defender than it was shove. The defender was already DOA on the play. Anyway, see the Minnesota - New Orleans ending for how that's usually officiated, and be sure to note that they reviewed that Rudolph TD in NY, too.
Whether it gets called is another discussion. I agree the officiating is wildly inconsistent. But I clearly saw the defender get pushed back, twice, giving him even more cushion. /shrug. The first push may have been to feel him out, but the second definitely had an effect, right before the ball arrived.
It was clear OPI to me as well...it should be called more often.

Maybe it will...I can almost feel a shift of the game back to defense.

I think people realized Super Bowls like LII are actually as boring as shit. 1,000+ yards of offense and scoring in every drive, so the winner is who has the ball last? That’s Arena Football

To me the most exciting play of that game was Brandon Graham stripping Tom Brady (well maybe Philly Philly too).

I sense officials, at least in big games, are starting to let defenses play.
You sense that? Holy captain obvious.

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