That sideways passing does not add a dimension. In fact, yesterday the rushing attack was far more effective than the dink and dunk. And by dink and dunk I DO NOT mean the short passing ATTACK Brady and the Pats employed so effectively. Why throw it 7 yards sideways when you could throw it 7 yards fwd?Kodiak wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 pmThe doc that did Ben's surgery was quoted the other day as saying he thought it would take at least half a season before Ben could really throw the ball like he is, half a season before he could really spin it.
Yeah, this is the NE ball-control passing attack. It's working, now, but I'm not so sure against better playoff defenses if we won't end up settling for a bunch more THTDs. That will kill you against the teams that can put points on the board.
And I think we all know without a respectable running game, eventually you run into a playoff defense that shuts down your one-dimensional offense.
The Dink and the Dunk
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Re: The Dink and the Dunk
- SteelerDayTrader
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Steeler Al wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:08 pmIn fact, yesterday the rushing attack was far more effective than the dink and dunk.
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If the c&p doesnt work employ the refuge of seven-year olds the emoji.
Conner had 89 yards on 13 carries. Snell saved us all from the familiar first and goal anxiety by blasting in on first try.
What am I missing Fetlock?
Subtracting the long ones?
Conner had 89 yards on 13 carries. Snell saved us all from the familiar first and goal anxiety by blasting in on first try.
What am I missing Fetlock?
Subtracting the long ones?
- bradshaw2ben
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I think that is inarguable is that they are doing whatever is necessary to win. I think it isn't a ridiculous mindset to throw short passes often, especially considering: they are successful in scoring and B. their run game is undependable. Their short passing game IS their run game.
Ben is certainly capable of throwing it into the intermediate zone, and in case you missed it, has been doing it more the past few weeks than he was the first few weeks.
When you're playing Jacksonville and you have the defense you have, hell––they could have run QB sneaks for four quarters and probably won the game. Why show the Ravens and KC more than you need to? As I said in the postgame, it appeared that they worked on some things they are trying to get better at, got everybody some reps/some touches, sucked the air out of the ball once the game was out of reach, and generally tried to get out of there on a short week.
Let's talk after the Ravens game, the Indy game, and so on.
Of all the things I'm concerned about for this season, I'd say an overreliance on short passing that's led to them scoring at a top 4 in the league level is about 50th on the list. He's not throwing short because his arm is weak or because he's scared or because the OL is bad. He's doing it because it's working. I have zero doubt that Ben can make any throw on the football field and can win with an intermediate game if that's what is open and if that's what's needed to win. Zero.
Ben is certainly capable of throwing it into the intermediate zone, and in case you missed it, has been doing it more the past few weeks than he was the first few weeks.
When you're playing Jacksonville and you have the defense you have, hell––they could have run QB sneaks for four quarters and probably won the game. Why show the Ravens and KC more than you need to? As I said in the postgame, it appeared that they worked on some things they are trying to get better at, got everybody some reps/some touches, sucked the air out of the ball once the game was out of reach, and generally tried to get out of there on a short week.
Let's talk after the Ravens game, the Indy game, and so on.
Of all the things I'm concerned about for this season, I'd say an overreliance on short passing that's led to them scoring at a top 4 in the league level is about 50th on the list. He's not throwing short because his arm is weak or because he's scared or because the OL is bad. He's doing it because it's working. I have zero doubt that Ben can make any throw on the football field and can win with an intermediate game if that's what is open and if that's what's needed to win. Zero.
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2 51 TRADE: Brandon Aiyuk, WR
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Let's see if they complete 14 passes for 30 yards in the playoffs and then we'll talk. What they did time and again yesterday would have to move up a couple yds per throw to be described as short.
Yes Ben is killing it in the intermediate routes which is why I am calling for more. ESPECIALLY against terrible teams like Jax. Finish them early.
You seem to think I am criticizing Ben. No way. MVP. And I notice that when he calls the plays the three yard slant, the los bubble screen and the zero sum flare to the running back are eliminated from the plan.
And what is it exactly that we are going to show Ravens, etc. that they havent seen a zillion times in one slight modification or another.
As STD might say it aint brain science or rocket surgery.
Yes Ben is killing it in the intermediate routes which is why I am calling for more. ESPECIALLY against terrible teams like Jax. Finish them early.
You seem to think I am criticizing Ben. No way. MVP. And I notice that when he calls the plays the three yard slant, the los bubble screen and the zero sum flare to the running back are eliminated from the plan.
And what is it exactly that we are going to show Ravens, etc. that they havent seen a zillion times in one slight modification or another.
As STD might say it aint brain science or rocket surgery.
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The short game is easy money. E-A-S-Y. They blew out the Jags by 24 by doing the easiest stuff imaginable. Short throws unless some was WFO behind the D. They walked out with a W, good health, even 20% rested.
How is that bad? What makes you think they can only play that way? They haven't even only played that way earlier in the season.
How is that bad? What makes you think they can only play that way? They haven't even only played that way earlier in the season.
1 20 Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia
2 51 TRADE: Brandon Aiyuk, WR
3 84 Hunter Nourzad, C, Penn State
3× 98 Jarvis Brownlee, Jr., CB, Florida State
4 128 Qwan'tez Stiggers, DB, Toronto Argonauts
2 51 TRADE: Brandon Aiyuk, WR
3 84 Hunter Nourzad, C, Penn State
3× 98 Jarvis Brownlee, Jr., CB, Florida State
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Yesterday's third quarter provoked my post.
Passing 7-10, 21 yards. Rushing 5-28 yards.
I have not claimed the Steelers regularly do this but its not like yesterday was precedent setting. In todays post my clear and main point is I dont want to see a stretch like this moving forward.
So what if its good enough to handle the Dregs, I mean Jags. All I want is for this 3rd Q (and much of the rest of this game)mentality to change (or disappear). The further the Steelers advance the more the opposition changes for the better.
Passing 7-10, 21 yards. Rushing 5-28 yards.
I have not claimed the Steelers regularly do this but its not like yesterday was precedent setting. In todays post my clear and main point is I dont want to see a stretch like this moving forward.
So what if its good enough to handle the Dregs, I mean Jags. All I want is for this 3rd Q (and much of the rest of this game)mentality to change (or disappear). The further the Steelers advance the more the opposition changes for the better.
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This. Defenses are giving the short routes to the Steelers because we have 3 burners at the WR position. After a four TD game from Claypool, JuJus two 97 yard TDS, and Johnson’s shifty YAC house calls defenses are determined not to allow either one of those guys to beat them deep.bradshaw2ben wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:35 pmThe short game is easy money. E-A-S-Y. They blew out the Jags by 24 by doing the easiest stuff imaginable. Short throws unless some was WFO behind the D. They walked out with a W, good health, even 20% rested.
How is that bad? What makes you think they can only play that way? They haven't even only played that way earlier in the season.
What’s concerning is that I f defenses are investing 6 guys to keep 3 guys from beating them deep why are we having problems running the ball when we have numbers on most downs? My observation is every since DD got back the run game has evaporated. If this team suddenly found 130 ypg rushing this offense would be virtually impossible to stop.
Once again, the Steelers running game is stale and predictable. That’s a recipe for failure no matter who is doing the blocking.VeritasSteel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:47 amThis. Defenses are giving the short routes to the Steelers because we have 3 burners at the WR position. After a four TD game from Claypool, JuJus two 97 yard TDS, and Johnson’s shifty YAC house calls defenses are determined not to allow either one of those guys to beat them deep.bradshaw2ben wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:35 pmThe short game is easy money. E-A-S-Y. They blew out the Jags by 24 by doing the easiest stuff imaginable. Short throws unless some was WFO behind the D. They walked out with a W, good health, even 20% rested.
How is that bad? What makes you think they can only play that way? They haven't even only played that way earlier in the season.
What’s concerning is that I f defenses are investing 6 guys to keep 3 guys from beating them deep why are we having problems running the ball when we have numbers on most downs? My observation is every since DD got back the run game has evaporated. If this team suddenly found 130 ypg rushing this offense would be virtually impossible to stop.
I saw someone do a video breakdown on the running game after they played the Bengals. The guy had video and stills of the Bengals defense knowing what was coming and beating the Steelers with numbers to the point of attack, time and time again.
Face it, the 5 slowest guys on the field at any time are the offensive lineman. The Steelers Neanderthal offense that requires them to out maneuver fast and athletic defenders on those slow developing runs are going to fail more often than not when the defense is dialed to what’s coming.
“Ah, who cares about Seattle’s Space Needle? Dumb looking building, you can see the whole stupid town, built by some jagoff! Pittsburgh got Mt. Warshington, gorgeous hillside, beautiful views of the whole city, built by God…we win!” - Pittsburgh Dad
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Neanderthals don’t deserve that pejorative term based on recent research.Jobu wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:05 am
Once again, the Steelers running game is stale and predictable. That’s a recipe for failure no matter who is doing the blocking.
I saw someone do a video breakdown on the running game after they played the Bengals. The guy had video and stills of the Bengals defense knowing what was coming and beating the Steelers with numbers to the point of attack, time and time again.
Face it, the 5 slowest guys on the field at any time are the offensive lineman. The Steelers Neanderthal offense that requires them to out maneuver fast and athletic defenders on those slow developing runs are going to fail more often than not when the defense is dialed to what’s coming.
Run blocking hasn’t changed much in 70 years. Yeah there’s a zone schemes And trap blocking but it’s still execution, leverage and determination. I just think that an injured DD is hurting the running game at the point of attack. Yeah he can play but Abdominal injuries sap your power source.I’ve seen a lack of push from a guy that usually dominates people. We can blame the running backs and scheme but if a guy can’t beat a rookies and journeymen then it’s going to be the weakness until we address it
My apologies to Neanderthals.VeritasSteel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:10 amNeanderthals don’t deserve that pejorative term based on recent research.Jobu wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:05 am
Once again, the Steelers running game is stale and predictable. That’s a recipe for failure no matter who is doing the blocking.
I saw someone do a video breakdown on the running game after they played the Bengals. The guy had video and stills of the Bengals defense knowing what was coming and beating the Steelers with numbers to the point of attack, time and time again.
Face it, the 5 slowest guys on the field at any time are the offensive lineman. The Steelers Neanderthal offense that requires them to out maneuver fast and athletic defenders on those slow developing runs are going to fail more often than not when the defense is dialed to what’s coming.
Run blocking hasn’t changed much in 70 years. Yeah there’s a zone schemes And trap blocking but it’s still execution, leverage and determination. I just think that an injured DD is hurting the running game at the point of attack. Yeah he can play but Abdominal injuries sap your power source.I’ve seen a lack of push from a guy that usually dominates people. We can blame the running backs and scheme but if a guy can’t beat a rookies and journeymen then it’s going to be the weakness until we address it
I probably should’ve used the term “meathead”.
I stand by my statement of a stale and predictable running game. But if DD is truly injured, then he needs to sit until he’s healthy. That’s on the coach.
“Ah, who cares about Seattle’s Space Needle? Dumb looking building, you can see the whole stupid town, built by some jagoff! Pittsburgh got Mt. Warshington, gorgeous hillside, beautiful views of the whole city, built by God…we win!” - Pittsburgh Dad
Stretching it further, the Steelers didn't pick up a single first down on BR's first 13 passes of the 2nd half.Steeler Owl wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:18 amYesterday's third quarter provoked my post.
Passing 7-10, 21 yards. Rushing 5-28 yards.
I have not claimed the Steelers regularly do this but its not like yesterday was precedent setting. In todays post my clear and main point is I dont want to see a stretch like this moving forward.
So what if its good enough to handle the Dregs, I mean Jags. All I want is for this 3rd Q (and much of the rest of this game)mentality to change (or disappear). The further the Steelers advance the more the opposition changes for the better.
9-13, 34 yards, 0 FDs
There have been long stretches of games like this throughout the season. We've all seen it. The Steelers are 4th in scoring but have been propped up by the 3rd best starting field position and a pretty soft schedule. Their ranking in points per game is a mirage. This has been a mediocre offense all season - somewhere around 12th to 15th depending how you choose to measure it (DVOA, points per drive, expected points added, etc). I think they can do better by taking more risks. BR is one of the best QBs in the league, they have a deep and talented array of pass catchers, and the OL can pass block. It's OK to hold the ball a little longer and let plays develop down the field.
Footballoutsiders.com compiles a statistic they call ALEX:
ALEX represents Air Less EXpected on third downs, the average difference between the length of the quarterback's throw and the distance needed for a new set of downs. The number listed here only includes third downs and is not adjusted for passes thrown away or batted down.
BR is 23rd in the NFL in ALEX. He is sandwiched between Sam Darnold and Gardner Mineshaw.
(In the interest of fairness, Mahomes is only a little bit ahead of BR in this metric and Brees is actually behind near the bottom. There are certainly some bad QBs high up on this list. But, for the most part, the QBs near the bottom are shit who need to be protected by conservative play calling).
I know a lot of people are taking this as a shot at BR. It's not. I blame it mostly on the coaches for instilling such a conservative mindset and calling such a conservative game.
The best offenses have the right balance between protecting the ball and being aggressive. We lean too heavily on the conservative side of that equation, IMO.
I am generally optimistic about the Steelers. I just see some holes that are getting glossed over because of the team's record and standing in total points.
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Excellent postTTP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:04 pmStretching it further, the Steelers didn't pick up a single first down on BR's first 13 passes of the 2nd half.Steeler Owl wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:18 amYesterday's third quarter provoked my post.
Passing 7-10, 21 yards. Rushing 5-28 yards.
I have not claimed the Steelers regularly do this but its not like yesterday was precedent setting. In todays post my clear and main point is I dont want to see a stretch like this moving forward.
So what if its good enough to handle the Dregs, I mean Jags. All I want is for this 3rd Q (and much of the rest of this game)mentality to change (or disappear). The further the Steelers advance the more the opposition changes for the better.
9-13, 34 yards, 0 FDs
There have been long stretches of games like this throughout the season. We've all seen it. The Steelers are 4th in scoring but have been propped up by the 3rd best starting field position and a pretty soft schedule. Their ranking in points per game is a mirage. This has been a mediocre offense all season - somewhere around 12th to 15th depending how you choose to measure it (DVOA, points per drive, expected points added, etc). I think they can do better by taking more risks. BR is one of the best QBs in the league, they have a deep and talented array of pass catchers, and the OL can pass block. It's OK to hold the ball a little longer and let plays develop down the field.
Footballoutsiders.com compiles a statistic they call ALEX:
ALEX represents Air Less EXpected on third downs, the average difference between the length of the quarterback's throw and the distance needed for a new set of downs. The number listed here only includes third downs and is not adjusted for passes thrown away or batted down.
BR is 23rd in the NFL in ALEX. He is sandwiched between Sam Darnold and Gardner Mineshaw.
(In the interest of fairness, Mahomes is only a little bit ahead of BR in this metric and Brees is actually behind near the bottom. There are certainly some bad QBs high up on this list. But, for the most part, the QBs near the bottom are shit who need to be protected by conservative play calling).
I know a lot of people are taking this as a shot at BR. It's not. I blame it mostly on the coaches for instilling such a conservative mindset and calling such a conservative game.
The best offenses have the right balance between protecting the ball and being aggressive. We lean too heavily on the conservative side of that equation, IMO.
I am generally optimistic about the Steelers. I just see some holes that are getting glossed over because of the team's record and standing in total points.
Against JAX, we were just trying to get out of there in the 2nd half. Using the passing game as an extension of the run....34 yards on 13 passes was really only intended to pick-up a few yards and keep the clock rolling.
I'm a lot more concerned with the slow starts with Ben looking to get his warm-up reps the first few series while probing the 'D'.
I remember back under, Arians I think, the scripted plays were pretty good and then the rest was garbage. Now it's kind of the reverse where you sit there going "WTF are we trying to do?".
I'm a lot more concerned with the slow starts with Ben looking to get his warm-up reps the first few series while probing the 'D'.
I remember back under, Arians I think, the scripted plays were pretty good and then the rest was garbage. Now it's kind of the reverse where you sit there going "WTF are we trying to do?".
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Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
Point is this
If we are all assuming the AFCC game will be us vs KC, the slow starts are concerning.
Why?
Do we really want to get down early vs KC?
I know I don’t.
Plus if we have to purely sling it, it makes us one dimensional and more importantly may create some quick 3 and outs, exactly what we won’t want against KC.
Will need long sustained drives to keep the D fresh.
We have 6 weeks to fix some things. Yes we are 10-0.
Yes it’s great. Yes we are lucky to be 10-0. But they can be better and we all know it.
If we are all assuming the AFCC game will be us vs KC, the slow starts are concerning.
Why?
Do we really want to get down early vs KC?
I know I don’t.
Plus if we have to purely sling it, it makes us one dimensional and more importantly may create some quick 3 and outs, exactly what we won’t want against KC.
Will need long sustained drives to keep the D fresh.
We have 6 weeks to fix some things. Yes we are 10-0.
Yes it’s great. Yes we are lucky to be 10-0. But they can be better and we all know it.
I couldn't disagree with this mindset more. We don't need long sustained drives, just like we don't need short, fast drives. We need scoring drives. If you go into with a mindset of needing to control the ball, etc., then you will sub optimize on offense.Jizz Mop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:02 pmPoint is this
If we are all assuming the AFCC game will be us vs KC, the slow starts are concerning.
Why?
Do we really want to get down early vs KC?
I know I don’t.
Plus if we have to purely sling it, it makes us one dimensional and more importantly may create some quick 3 and outs, exactly what we won’t want against KC.
Will need long sustained drives to keep the D fresh.
We have 6 weeks to fix some things. Yes we are 10-0.
Yes it’s great. Yes we are lucky to be 10-0. But they can be better and we all know it.
If I am Tomlin, I bet that if I let my offense hunt, then my offense + defense can make more splash plays compared to their offense and defense.
KC's offense is obviously really good. But our defense has great ball hawks and great pass rushers. Let's turn it into a track meet. I bet TJ Watt and Fitzpatrick hit pay dirt a few times.
I do think it isn't a question of whether the offense can do it, but the choices made. When we have end of half drives, or "need points" drives, etc. the intermediate passing is used and we have been really successful with it. If anything, it opens up the short passing game (but more of the 5-7 yard variety instead of 0-3 yard).TTP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:04 pmStretching it further, the Steelers didn't pick up a single first down on BR's first 13 passes of the 2nd half.Steeler Owl wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:18 amYesterday's third quarter provoked my post.
Passing 7-10, 21 yards. Rushing 5-28 yards.
I have not claimed the Steelers regularly do this but its not like yesterday was precedent setting. In todays post my clear and main point is I dont want to see a stretch like this moving forward.
So what if its good enough to handle the Dregs, I mean Jags. All I want is for this 3rd Q (and much of the rest of this game)mentality to change (or disappear). The further the Steelers advance the more the opposition changes for the better.
9-13, 34 yards, 0 FDs
There have been long stretches of games like this throughout the season. We've all seen it. The Steelers are 4th in scoring but have been propped up by the 3rd best starting field position and a pretty soft schedule. Their ranking in points per game is a mirage. This has been a mediocre offense all season - somewhere around 12th to 15th depending how you choose to measure it (DVOA, points per drive, expected points added, etc). I think they can do better by taking more risks. BR is one of the best QBs in the league, they have a deep and talented array of pass catchers, and the OL can pass block. It's OK to hold the ball a little longer and let plays develop down the field.
Footballoutsiders.com compiles a statistic they call ALEX:
ALEX represents Air Less EXpected on third downs, the average difference between the length of the quarterback's throw and the distance needed for a new set of downs. The number listed here only includes third downs and is not adjusted for passes thrown away or batted down.
BR is 23rd in the NFL in ALEX. He is sandwiched between Sam Darnold and Gardner Mineshaw.
(In the interest of fairness, Mahomes is only a little bit ahead of BR in this metric and Brees is actually behind near the bottom. There are certainly some bad QBs high up on this list. But, for the most part, the QBs near the bottom are shit who need to be protected by conservative play calling).
I know a lot of people are taking this as a shot at BR. It's not. I blame it mostly on the coaches for instilling such a conservative mindset and calling such a conservative game.
The best offenses have the right balance between protecting the ball and being aggressive. We lean too heavily on the conservative side of that equation, IMO.
I am generally optimistic about the Steelers. I just see some holes that are getting glossed over because of the team's record and standing in total points.
To me, it is a conscious choice. The question is why? Does Tomlin want to make that choice because he wants to play attrition or because he wants to keep Ben healthy until the playoffs. My ardent hope is that Tomlin is just trying to protect hits on Ben and come playoffs we see more "need points" drives from the get go. Hopefully the plan is to get early leads (more than 14 points) and then let the defense hunt. Also, can't take foot of the gas.
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When the Steelers played KC in 2018 the offense was hot garbage and Jordan Berry sucked monkey balls. The first "drive" lost 2 yards, 3 and out then a 39 yard punt returned to the 22. 3 plays and a TD. The second "drive" lost 3 yards followed up by another 39 yard punt by Berry which they lucked out with a KC holding penalty. 5 plays and 71 yards later and it's 14-0 with a Mahomes to Kelce 19 yard TD. Ben gets it going with a 10 play drive, 1 run 9 passes, and it stalls. Boswell, building on his failure in OT from the week before, missed a 49 yard field goal giving KC great field position. KC goes 61 yards in 6 plays for the TD and a 21-0 lead.zeke5123 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:29 pmI couldn't disagree with this mindset more. We don't need long sustained drives, just like we don't need short, fast drives. We need scoring drives. If you go into with a mindset of needing to control the ball, etc., then you will sub optimize on offense.Jizz Mop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:02 pmPoint is this
If we are all assuming the AFCC game will be us vs KC, the slow starts are concerning.
Why?
Do we really want to get down early vs KC?
I know I don’t.
Plus if we have to purely sling it, it makes us one dimensional and more importantly may create some quick 3 and outs, exactly what we won’t want against KC.
Will need long sustained drives to keep the D fresh.
We have 6 weeks to fix some things. Yes we are 10-0.
Yes it’s great. Yes we are lucky to be 10-0. But they can be better and we all know it.
If I am Tomlin, I bet that if I let my offense hunt, then my offense + defense can make more splash plays compared to their offense and defense.
KC's offense is obviously really good. But our defense has great ball hawks and great pass rushers. Let's turn it into a track meet. I bet TJ Watt and Fitzpatrick hit pay dirt a few times.
Ben brought them back to tie 21 all at half. I get it that they were down but these 3 td drives features only 1 or 2 runs each. Ben was slinging it.
I don't know how much KC has changed in 2 years but the Steelers DBs in that game were Burns and Cam Sutton at CB, Burnett and Davis at safety and Hilton as the nickel. I feel a whole lot better with Nelson, Haden, Minkah, Edmunds and Hilton on the back end.
I would hope that Tomlin would come out attacking but his history says otherwise.
2 fun facts. Jesse James caught 5 balls for 138 and a TD in that game. Also Ben ran a faster 40 at the combine than Mahomes, 4.75 to 4.80.
It's not just the Jax game though. The overly conservative offense has been a theme all season with the exception of a few spurts.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:57 pmAgainst JAX, we were just trying to get out of there in the 2nd half. Using the passing game as an extension of the run....34 yards on 13 passes was really only intended to pick-up a few yards and keep the clock rolling.
I'm a lot more concerned with the slow starts with Ben looking to get his warm-up reps the first few series while probing the 'D'.
I remember back under, Arians I think, the scripted plays were pretty good and then the rest was garbage. Now it's kind of the reverse where you sit there going "WTF are we trying to do?".
The Steelers have gotten a first down on just 33.9% of passes. The only teams worse: Jax, Chicago, Philly, Denver, NY Jets.
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Damn. Good stuff TTP.TTP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:04 pmIt's not just the Jax game though. The overly conservative offense has been a theme all season with the exception of a few spurts.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:57 pmAgainst JAX, we were just trying to get out of there in the 2nd half. Using the passing game as an extension of the run....34 yards on 13 passes was really only intended to pick-up a few yards and keep the clock rolling.
I'm a lot more concerned with the slow starts with Ben looking to get his warm-up reps the first few series while probing the 'D'.
I remember back under, Arians I think, the scripted plays were pretty good and then the rest was garbage. Now it's kind of the reverse where you sit there going "WTF are we trying to do?".
The Steelers have gotten a first down on just 33.9% of passes. The only teams worse: Jax, Chicago, Philly, Denver, NY Jets.
“Thoughts are a waste of time for me.” - Michael Pettaway Tomlin
obviously those aren’t teams you want your offense to be comparable to.TTP wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:04 pmIt's not just the Jax game though. The overly conservative offense has been a theme all season with the exception of a few spurts.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:57 pmAgainst JAX, we were just trying to get out of there in the 2nd half. Using the passing game as an extension of the run....34 yards on 13 passes was really only intended to pick-up a few yards and keep the clock rolling.
I'm a lot more concerned with the slow starts with Ben looking to get his warm-up reps the first few series while probing the 'D'.
I remember back under, Arians I think, the scripted plays were pretty good and then the rest was garbage. Now it's kind of the reverse where you sit there going "WTF are we trying to do?".
The Steelers have gotten a first down on just 33.9% of passes. The only teams worse: Jax, Chicago, Philly, Denver, NY Jets.
That said, two points:
(1) we are toward the top of the league in 3rd down conversions, hitting completions past the sticks when we want to (unlike the other teams you list)
And
(2) which indicates that we are likely relatively bad at picking up 1sts on 1st and 2nd down passing. And for that, this is kind of a dumb statistic to care about. For example, picking up 9 yards on 1st and 10 is better for your expected point outcome than picking up 11. So why is that the metric to be concerned about?
I'm seeing 9th in Pts/Dr and 8th in TDs/Dr (probably not updated with Week 11 yet)
We score because Ben is performing brain surgery on defenses plus our depth in the receiving group.
League rules favor Andy Reid's football mind over Mike Tomlin's football mind.
We score because Ben is performing brain surgery on defenses plus our depth in the receiving group.
League rules favor Andy Reid's football mind over Mike Tomlin's football mind.
Throw. The. Football. On. First. Down.
That's Tomlin's DNA. Taking less risk = less turnovers. That's always been his mindset - possess the ball and don't take necessary risks. That's generally a winning philosophy, but until this year we were always too sloppy and inconsistent for that.
I've said many times you shorten the game when you're over-matched. And I'm not sure anyone, with our defense and Ben, truly over-matches us in a shootout. But I also don't think we're going to be able to suddenly flip a switch and go up and down the field for 60 minutes against the elite offenses.
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Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
Why can't we flip that switch? We basically do it anytime we need points or are in a 2 minute drill.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:32 pmThat's Tomlin's DNA. Taking less risk = less turnovers. That's always been his mindset - possess the ball and don't take necessary risks. That's generally a winning philosophy, but until this year we were always too sloppy and inconsistent for that.
I've said many times you shorten the game when you're over-matched. And I'm not sure anyone, with our defense and Ben, truly over-matches us in a shootout. But I also don't think we're going to be able to suddenly flip a switch and go up and down the field for 60 minutes against the elite offenses.
Because doing it for a few series against the dregs of the league is nowhere near the same as doing it at a high-level for 60 minutes against an elite playoff team.
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Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
You guys crack me up. When Ben misses a deep ball on 3rd down you bitch about going for the home run. If he throws short and and the receiver doesn’t get YAC for the 1st you also bitch. What you want is perfection. Yeah, I want guys wide open beyond the marker too. There is a reason defenses tend to flood those zones in coverage. Part of the reason the YPA is low this year is Ben has been a little off on his deep ball at times. My only real issue with the short passing game is the tip balls have gotten too frequent.
People who quote themselves look like dogs who lick their balls
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
- VeritasSteel
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:19 pm
I dont think that is a DNA thing at all. I think that Tomlin has been adaptable to the offensive philosophies and only wants the offense to protect the defense. The turnover problem is usually when we are either trying to salt away (4 minute drill) or come back and win the game. Last year's Ravens and Saints games are examples of that- along with the Titans game this year. There comes a time when the offense needs to throttle down, work the clock, and protect the ball in order to shorten the game.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:32 pmThat's Tomlin's DNA. Taking less risk = less turnovers. That's always been his mindset - possess the ball and don't take necessary risks. That's generally a winning philosophy, but until this year we were always too sloppy and inconsistent for that.
I've said many times you shorten the game when you're over-matched. And I'm not sure anyone, with our defense and Ben, truly over-matches us in a shootout. But I also don't think we're going to be able to suddenly flip a switch and go up and down the field for 60 minutes against the elite offenses.
The 11 sack Raiders had a great defensive game plan for the Chiefs. But the offense did them no favors scoring that TD on the front side of the 2 minute warning and leaving the Chiefs with 2:00 plus and a TO to work with. Raiders were in scoring position with first and goal from the 5 with 2:05 left and the Chiefs got away from that scenario with a time out left. At worst the Raiders should have given them to ball back with less than a minute 30 and no timeouts just to give the defense a chance. That 2 minutes was an eternity for a team that has no pass rush and was working with a depleted roster that was on the field for 18 more plays than their counter parts. If you are going to beat the Chiefs you have to evaporate those scoring chances by effectively managing the clock with your offense. If the Chiefs run 18 more plays than us then I dont like our chances unless we are winning the TO and sack battle. Last night 31 points wasnt good enough because the Raiders didnt throttle down and kill off that clock.
- bradshaw2ben
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Veritas... for the life of me can't understand why LVR were in a hurry to score there.
And then they accepted a penalty that gained them one down, less than a yard, and stopped the clock before 2min warning, saving KC a timeout.
And then they accepted a penalty that gained them one down, less than a yard, and stopped the clock before 2min warning, saving KC a timeout.
1 20 Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia
2 51 TRADE: Brandon Aiyuk, WR
3 84 Hunter Nourzad, C, Penn State
3× 98 Jarvis Brownlee, Jr., CB, Florida State
4 128 Qwan'tez Stiggers, DB, Toronto Argonauts
2 51 TRADE: Brandon Aiyuk, WR
3 84 Hunter Nourzad, C, Penn State
3× 98 Jarvis Brownlee, Jr., CB, Florida State
4 128 Qwan'tez Stiggers, DB, Toronto Argonauts
And that mindset is how you lose to KC. Indeed, it is the mindset that lets KC run 18 more plays.VeritasSteel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:39 pmI dont think that is a DNA thing at all. I think that Tomlin has been adaptable to the offensive philosophies and only wants the offense to protect the defense. The turnover problem is usually when we are either trying to salt away (4 minute drill) or come back and win the game. Last year's Ravens and Saints games are examples of that- along with the Titans game this year. There comes a time when the offense needs to throttle down, work the clock, and protect the ball in order to shorten the game.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:32 pmThat's Tomlin's DNA. Taking less risk = less turnovers. That's always been his mindset - possess the ball and don't take necessary risks. That's generally a winning philosophy, but until this year we were always too sloppy and inconsistent for that.
I've said many times you shorten the game when you're over-matched. And I'm not sure anyone, with our defense and Ben, truly over-matches us in a shootout. But I also don't think we're going to be able to suddenly flip a switch and go up and down the field for 60 minutes against the elite offenses.
The 11 sack Raiders had a great defensive game plan for the Chiefs. But the offense did them no favors scoring that TD on the front side of the 2 minute warning and leaving the Chiefs with 2:00 plus and a TO to work with. Raiders were in scoring position with first and goal from the 5 with 2:05 left and the Chiefs got away from that scenario with a time out left. At worst the Raiders should have given them to ball back with less than a minute 30 and no timeouts just to give the defense a chance. That 2 minutes was an eternity for a team that has no pass rush and was working with a depleted roster that was on the field for 18 more plays than their counter parts. If you are going to beat the Chiefs you have to evaporate those scoring chances by effectively managing the clock with your offense. If the Chiefs run 18 more plays than us then I dont like our chances unless we are winning the TO and sack battle. Last night 31 points wasnt good enough because the Raiders didnt throttle down and kill off that clock.
The thing that lost the Raiders the game was the offensive series in the second half where they come out running Josh Jacobs on first and second down for minimal gain, and then put the O in 3rd and long.
That was an attempt to shorten the game and keep the clock running. The problem with that philosophy is that first downs keep the clock running; not attempting to be methodical.
This attitude is what allowed the Pats to win so much. Coaches would come in "trying to shorten the game" which sounds nice in theory but what it really meant was "put our offense in a lot of 3rd and short, and expect them to convert again and again." The problem with an offense designed to get to 3rd and short is that you often end up missing a 3rd down before you get into scoring range. Now you are down 14-0 and it starts to snowball.
The philosophy you espouse seems reasonable on its face, but counter intuitive it leads to the result you are trying to avoid. I hope Mike T. avoids that thinking like the plague against KC.
Let me put it this way: I think the difference between our offense and KC's defense is larger than the difference between KC's offense and our defense. So let's play football to our offense's strengthen (i.e., let Ben attack short, medium, and long based on what D is giving). Coincidentally, playing to our offense's strength will protect the defense because the offense will necessarily hold the ball longer AND might give your D the lead.
Mike Tomlin is the poster boy for that philosophy.zeke5123 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:01 amAnd that mindset is how you lose to KC. Indeed, it is the mindset that lets KC run 18 more plays.VeritasSteel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:39 pmI dont think that is a DNA thing at all. I think that Tomlin has been adaptable to the offensive philosophies and only wants the offense to protect the defense. The turnover problem is usually when we are either trying to salt away (4 minute drill) or come back and win the game. Last year's Ravens and Saints games are examples of that- along with the Titans game this year. There comes a time when the offense needs to throttle down, work the clock, and protect the ball in order to shorten the game.Kodiak wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:32 pm
That's Tomlin's DNA. Taking less risk = less turnovers. That's always been his mindset - possess the ball and don't take necessary risks. That's generally a winning philosophy, but until this year we were always too sloppy and inconsistent for that.
I've said many times you shorten the game when you're over-matched. And I'm not sure anyone, with our defense and Ben, truly over-matches us in a shootout. But I also don't think we're going to be able to suddenly flip a switch and go up and down the field for 60 minutes against the elite offenses.
The 11 sack Raiders had a great defensive game plan for the Chiefs. But the offense did them no favors scoring that TD on the front side of the 2 minute warning and leaving the Chiefs with 2:00 plus and a TO to work with. Raiders were in scoring position with first and goal from the 5 with 2:05 left and the Chiefs got away from that scenario with a time out left. At worst the Raiders should have given them to ball back with less than a minute 30 and no timeouts just to give the defense a chance. That 2 minutes was an eternity for a team that has no pass rush and was working with a depleted roster that was on the field for 18 more plays than their counter parts. If you are going to beat the Chiefs you have to evaporate those scoring chances by effectively managing the clock with your offense. If the Chiefs run 18 more plays than us then I dont like our chances unless we are winning the TO and sack battle. Last night 31 points wasnt good enough because the Raiders didnt throttle down and kill off that clock.
The thing that lost the Raiders the game was the offensive series in the second half where they come out running Josh Jacobs on first and second down for minimal gain, and then put the O in 3rd and long.
That was an attempt to shorten the game and keep the clock running. The problem with that philosophy is that first downs keep the clock running; not attempting to be methodical.
This attitude is what allowed the Pats to win so much. Coaches would come in "trying to shorten the game" which sounds nice in theory but what it really meant was "put our offense in a lot of 3rd and short, and expect them to convert again and again." The problem with an offense designed to get to 3rd and short is that you often end up missing a 3rd down before you get into scoring range. Now you are down 14-0 and it starts to snowball.
The philosophy you espouse seems reasonable on its face, but counter intuitive it leads to the result you are trying to avoid. I hope Mike T. avoids that thinking like the plague against KC.
Let me put it this way: I think the difference between our offense and KC's defense is larger than the difference between KC's offense and our defense. So let's play football to our offense's strengthen (i.e., let Ben attack short, medium, and long based on what D is giving). Coincidentally, playing to our offense's strength will protect the defense because the offense will necessarily hold the ball longer AND might give your D the lead.
“Ah, who cares about Seattle’s Space Needle? Dumb looking building, you can see the whole stupid town, built by some jagoff! Pittsburgh got Mt. Warshington, gorgeous hillside, beautiful views of the whole city, built by God…we win!” - Pittsburgh Dad