o-line fixable?

[sinceiwas4]

is it? i honestly don't know. i am asking the minds here that know much more than i do. i believe its the biggest, by a mile, issue this team has. even the defensive injuries and players lost for the year havent been a bigger problem than what the oline has done to the offense. but i mean, these are the players we got, is there a reshuffling possible? dotson getting healthy? feiler getting healthy, lacking as he's been at guard? or is it just Ben has to be able to scramble like he's 28 instead of 38 or we are 1 and done? honestly asking. can anything be done about the offensive line? or should we give up on this year?

[Greeksteel]

Whats the best way to turn chicken turds into chicken salad?

[sinceiwas4]

so, i'm reading that as one vote for the jimmys and joes suck nothing can be done til next year side of things, lol? if so i guess our only hope is the defense getting some linebackers back and hopefully scoring on that side of the ball too while we eliminate the turnovers on offense. so be it. defense may have to beat two offenses per week but if that's our only hope, i'd rather hope than give up. so, let's go D!
or, does anyone else have any ideas to fix, or hide differently, the oline?

[Kodiak]

CIN was last in the league in sacks....and we practically made them look like the '85 Bears.

I'll say this, though - when we started to run the ball a little in the second half, and had some success, suddenly Ben had more time in the pocket.

[sinceiwas4]

so yeah, shifting the line players, scheme and attitude to run blocking as a priority may be the best way to get some time for Ben and some better play from the offense in general, it seems. i hope Dotson is what he looked like earlier in season run blocking and gets healthy fast then!

[Jobu]

Yes the O line can be fixed.


Unfortunately, it’s going to take at least two or three drafts and some serious coaching upgrades.

[Kodiak]

Unfortunately, it’s going to take at least two or three drafts and some serious coaching upgrades.

Yeah, prior to throwing a ton of R1 and R2 picks at it, and then bringing in Munchak, the OL was almost as bad as what we have now.

Tomlin is a very average coach propped-up by a HOF QB and GM. It is what it is.

[Scunge]

This O-line is at the natural end of their time together.

It was great while it lasted. Big Al, Ramon Foster, Pouncey, DeCastro, and Gilbert/Hubbard/Feiler. You simply don't see a group that plays that long together and at a high level.

Foster retired. Gilbert couldn't stay healthy and was traded. Hubbard parlayed his sub time for Gilbert into a reasonably sizable free agent deal and signed with Cleveland.

In terms of how to fix this line, well, it just needs new blood, new younger players have to be given their opportunities now.

DeCastro and Pouncey are not Pro Bowl calibre this year and they are missing time due to injury AND they are high priced to boot. Big Al is a free agent and I always viewed him as somebody who is a clear notch or two below what you really want at LT. Better pass rushers give him fits and he really isn't that good of a run blocker.

I thought it really interesting to see our former player, Fred Johnson, playing LT for Cincy. Yeah, they have had a lot of injuries and shuffling of their O-line, but he did play well enough last night, didn't he??

To me the Steelers deluded themselves into thinking that Ben would play the next 3 years and that all they had to do was try and keep the O-line together for that time and they would be okay. Wrong.

Pouncey, DeCastro and Big Al are becoming liabilities and worse, high priced liabilities that hinder your ability to sign other key players.

So, what are their options? Well, I think they have to sign Matt Feiler because he is younger than Big Al and he is more versatile, can play T and G. I let Big Al go test free agency. I try and trade DeCastro and get rid of that $8.75 million base salary. Okorafora has tools to work with and this was really his first season of starting and I think he can play LT. If Banner is signed somehow he could be a nasty run blocking RT. Kevin Dotson can be one of the starting guards.

Pouncey is really, really declining and Center is one of the easiest positions for a talented rookie to come in and play from day one. Happens all the time.

A starting lineup of Okorafora, Feiler, 1st/2nd round rookie Center, Dotson and Banner would probably be way better than a lineup featuring Big Al, Pouncey and DeCastro and would enable the Steelers to spend money elsewhere on defense to try and retain key free agents.

I have been clear on my plans with Ben, I think the Steelers have to make a tough choice, a Polamalu choice and urge him to retire or failing that, cut him before that $15 million roster bonus is due in early March.

If the O-line is going to be rebuilt, what is the point of Ben being back? He is scared of holding the ball any longer than he has to, and his patience with a new O-line will probably not go over to well with him. Also, come on the old Ben is nowhere to be seen, he is a pale shadow of his former self.

That $19 million saved by moving on from Ben, $15+4 base salary, might, just might enable you to sign Hilton, or Sutton or both. Or maybe make an offer to Dupree?

But to give Ben an extension to restructure money and kick that can down the road some more?? That would be supremely stupid. You are not going to be able to free up $19 million in a restructure. Maybe more like $7-8 million? And you still have a 39 year old QB that doesn't want to play under center, doesn't want to move, roll out of the pocket and throw on the run. It is painful watching Ben try and do any of this anymore.

There are going to be a good amount of free agent QBs available in 2021. You may not like the list but there are quite a few of them that could probably run the offense better than Ben at a fraction of the cost.

The Steelers have to start thinking ahead of what this team will look like in 2022-2023 and that all starts with the decisions that they make in 2021.

If they give Ben a 2 year extension, if they sign Big Al to a 3 year deal, if they keep Pouncey around as a starter, if they sign JuJu to a huge $80 million deal, that is all going to hurt this team and prevent them from being competitive in 2022 and 2023.

They should blow up and rebuild the offense, and spend the money to try and retain Hilton, Sutton and Dupree. If the offense takes a year or two to develop without Ben, Big Al, Pouncey, DeCasto, JuJu, then so be it. They aren't good enough right now and to try and keep them together as our defense is being dismantled through free agency??

You have one side of your team that is strong, has proven players, quality players that have matured and are entering their primes. Then you have another side of your team, the weaker side, that is past their prime and are too costly and if retained will prevent you from keeping that better, stronger half of your team intact.

It really is that simple. You have to take care of that strong defense and rebuild the offense. Ben, Pouncey, DeCastro, Big Al, JuJu, all would be gone if I were in charge. Agree to disagree with me all you want.

[Professor Half Wit]

Scunge, I'll just add, regarding the o line, that you have to go out and replace Sharrett, don't you? O line fell off a cliff.

[W&M_Steeler]

It really is that simple. You have to take care of that strong defense and rebuild the offense. Ben, Pouncey, DeCastro, Big Al, JuJu, all would be gone if I were in charge. Agree to disagree with me all you want.

Good post. The problem I see with it is that getting rid of all those guys will still waste the D for a few seasons. By the time the Steelers have a new QB and re-establish the O, the D will be in decline. I think less drastic measures are needed.

Although he is clearly on the decline, I am not convinced that Ben is the problem. Put him behind a better line with a respectable run game and I think he is on the better side of average for another year or two. The other QB options are terrible. I try to extend / restructure Ben with a 4 year deal that makes him cuttable after year 2 and start making QB a draft priority (probably round 1 in 2022)

I was also down on Pouncey, but seeing how horrible Haussenhauer was as his replacement put him in perspective somewhat. He's overpaid, but things could get worse. On the other hand, cutting Pouncey might be a way for the FO to force Ben to retire if that's their goal.

Let AV and JuJu walk. Try to trade DeCastro to get something based on his name recognition (unless the coaches know he's injured & playing at 60% or something).

The Steelers need to upgrade the RB position. Conner is ok but unreliable, and none of the other backs are feature backs. I wouldn't be upset if they took a RB in round 1 or 2 this year.

Of course, I think they could upgrade the coaching staff. I wonder if Munchak would come back as OC, or is that bridge burnt? That could upgrade two areas at once.

[steelmann58]

I said the biggest loss was MM and they never really looked outside for a Another Ol Coach.
Starrett and Klemm together are a Mess and need to be let go.

[Scunge]

Nah, I think Munch will never come back.

For me the way the offense and the O-line is currently playing and structured is a concession to an aging, past his prime Ben. Even if you put new, high draft picks in front of him, is he still going to do shotgun? Still not be willing to do rollouts? Still not want to do QB sneaks? Still want to get the ball out with his first read?? It was head scratching to me to see him throw short into a heavily covered WR when if he had held the ball a second longer he may have had a much longer pass play to Claypool, perhaps even a TD? I saw that twice in the first quarter!

It was fascinating to me that Cincy last night had their 3rd QB do some run pass options and gouged us for some long runs. Ben can't do that at this point.

I don't see what there is to cling to anymore with Ben. He will be 39 in March and the arm looks terrible to me, has all season long. Where are those passes that lead the WR to maximize the run after the catch? The ball placement has been off all year, and the farther he has to throw down the field, the less accurate he is, and even the short passes are adventurous, often too low, or too high, hard for your young WRs to run after the catch if they have to adjust to your lame duck passes.

In terms of the defense, I think you have to look at this defense as if it is 2004-2005. That is a good 3-4 years before the 2008 defense. In 2004-2005 you had a Troy Polamalu who was only in his 2nd and 3rd years. You look at Watt, Fitz, Bush, etc, they are still so damn young. In 3-4 years time they will still be in their prime and yes, you may have a Heyward that will retire but then over these next 3-4 years, what other pieces will the Steelers add?? This defense right now, may only be that 2005 defense, but will get much better just 3 years later. Kimo Von Oelhoffen was gone in 2008, but Brett Kiesel replaced him.

This 2019-2020 defense does not have to be the pinnacle, to be similar to that 2008 defense, where it is all downhill from here, no, it can be like that 2005 defense that got better years later, as Joey Porter left and James Harrison rose, as Clark Haggans gave way to Lamar Woodley, as Larry Foote gave way to Lawrence Timmons, etc.

You do what it takes to keep that strong defense together and get rid of the bloated offense and old vets that are past their prime.

[StillerDownSouth]

I’m on the fence when it comes to Ben, retiring him and bringing in a Winston, Darnold, or some other QB cheap for a couple of years might not be a bad idea, if that means we can keep Bud, Hilton and Sutton. I also think if Ben had a strong running game he would look much better than he has the last 4 weeks, he played pretty damn good first 9-10 weeks this year. I think whatever they do, first priority has to be fix the run game. I let JuJu, Conner and big Al walk via free agency (should net some good comp picks for future) then I draft RB, OL, OL in some order in 1st 3 rounds.

[franco32]

W&M...I agree 100%.

You can't completely tear up the offense because the D will be in decline by the time they are rebuilt. Imagine 39 year old Ben with a really strong running game? Not so bad. He put up 17 points in the second half when the run game was working.

We have to go youth movement on the line...and that means Banner, Feiler, Okorafor, Dotson, Gray, and probably another high draft pick or two. Good college olinemen can play very well as rookies. Very little time investment there if you nail the pick.

[StillerDownSouth]

W&M...I agree 100%.

You can't completely tear up the offense because the D will be in decline by the time they are rebuilt. Imagine 39 year old Ben with a really strong running game? Not so bad. He put up 17 points in the second half when the run game was working.

We have to go youth movement on the line...and that means Banner, Feiler, Okorafor, Dotson, Gray, and probably another high draft pick or two. Good college olinemen can play very well as rookies. Very little time investment there if you nail the pick.

This is why I think signing Bud out of all of our free agents is a must this off-season, good edge players are hard to find, especially later in the draft, while finding good O-Linemen is much easier to do in later rounds. Also why signing Hilton and Sutton is more important than signing JuJu or Conner, we have great success drafting receivers after 1st round and RB’s than we have had drafting corners. Get a top tier run game and you could extend Ben and get 2-3 more years out of him kinda like New England did with Brady the last 2-3 years he was there, they transformed into a power run team that played great defense, which is still a formula for success.

[StillerDownSouth]

At some point if you do extend Ben, you have to spend some draft capital and get a QB in top 15 probably by 2022 draft, so you have your guy because that guy isn’t on the roster currently. Bringing in a rookie after you have fixed the o-line and addressed the RB position while still maintaining a top tier defense isn’t a bad thing.

[jewelsongs]

You can't fix the OL, but you can improve it to where it is not killing us. To start, we need Dotson to play this week. Not only is the LG position below the line, but it impacts the LT position as well. Assuming Dotson plays, then line up McDonald on the left side to help with the rush there. Don't let the speed rush get outside of AV. Continue the commitment to both the running game and the intermediate routes. Don't let the defense tee off on us every play. Keep the running back in initially. The passes to Snell last night slipping out of the backfield worked for the most part. Let Ben get comfortable in the pocket.

We have to start better, so as to not get behind early, forcing us to pass. Ben needs to practice all week. JuJu needs to quit dancing. We need Vince Williams back. It is Christmas, so Santa please bring my Steelers these things this year.

[sinceiwas4]

thank you, jewelsongs. this what i was really looking for, ways to shore up this group with scheme or personnel changes like you and some others mentioned. i hope some of those ideas will be implemented and bear fruit. next yr is next yr. i don't wanna give up entirely on this team with this defense that should get both it's inside LBs back counting Spillane there cuz his play was "above the line" enough to win games on defense with. i have said in the past that Tomlin is only capable of winning it all with a championship defense. his strategy hogties the offense too much to win with that side. but they need to not lose it and be at least not horrible. thats all we need is a not horrible offense and this D at full remaining health can still make some noise. it's the best only chance we have. so thanks again guys for the ideas for this year that i can hope/look for

and yes i agree going foward they need to infuse a ton of youth on to Oline get a better OL coach and if Ben retires as a result, we didnt lose much based on what he can do behind this line playing like it is. but i hope they make those changes and use Ben as the vet transition to the next qb. but that means he needs to be ok playing behind a young line and for transition vet qb money in order to try to go out like his hero Elway did, maybe that's enough reason for him idk if it will be.

[Professor Half Wit]

You can't fix the OL, but you can improve it to where it is not killing us. To start, we need Dotson to play this week. Not only is the LG position below the line, but it impacts the LT position as well. Assuming Dotson plays, then line up McDonald on the left side to help with the rush there. Don't let the speed rush get outside of AV. Continue the commitment to both the running game and the intermediate routes. Don't let the defense tee off on us every play. Keep the running back in initially. The passes to Snell last night slipping out of the backfield worked for the most part. Let Ben get comfortable in the pocket.

We have to start better, so as to not get behind early, forcing us to pass. Ben needs to practice all week. JuJu needs to quit dancing. We need Vince Williams back. It is Christmas, so Santa please bring my Steelers these things this year.

Having to ask Santa for these things suggests that some coaches are really shitty at their job.

[jewelsongs]

You can't fix the OL, but you can improve it to where it is not killing us. To start, we need Dotson to play this week. Not only is the LG position below the line, but it impacts the LT position as well. Assuming Dotson plays, then line up McDonald on the left side to help with the rush there. Don't let the speed rush get outside of AV. Continue the commitment to both the running game and the intermediate routes. Don't let the defense tee off on us every play. Keep the running back in initially. The passes to Snell last night slipping out of the backfield worked for the most part. Let Ben get comfortable in the pocket.

We have to start better, so as to not get behind early, forcing us to pass. Ben needs to practice all week. JuJu needs to quit dancing. We need Vince Williams back. It is Christmas, so Santa please bring my Steelers these things this year.

Having to ask Santa for these things suggests that some coaches are really shitty at their job.

Some of our coaches are.

[Greeksteel]

In my opinion, Ben is an issue, but an issue lower on the list of problems plaguing the offense. We need to back defenses up, the way this Oline pass blocks we aint gonna be able to drop back and let deep passing plays develop so the only way that can consistently happen is to get some play action passing back into our game, play action aint gonna work until we get a consistent running game going and get defenses to respect the run.. only then can we can get some consistent intermediate passing happening. We all know a consistent running game starts and ends with the OL, so thats where the Steelers focus needs to be right now. I happen to think this is a jimmys and joes issue rather than Xs and Os but I have to believe theres something schematically or philosophy wise that we can do to improve what we are seeing.

Said it before, we knew Munchak was gonna be missed but wow was he a big loss.

[Tundralag]

I think the O line is 75% the problem.. and if I were Mike T. I would have a team meeting coaches only.. Find the best players on the practice squad or wherever Let them know they are now the starters..Tell the starters you are not the backups.. start looking for offseason work... Then i would fire the entire O Coaching staff.. Maybe keep Canada.. Every assistant down to the water boy would be looking for work before Xmas..

I would Bench JuJu for the remainder of the season, then let him walk.. He is the current cancer on the team.. Acting like AB more and more and cant see the forest through the trees..

Promote or help the D out the best you can.. They are beat up and still pulling 90% of the load... Cant expect them to play 50 Minutes a game and hold the other team to no points..

Then lets see what happens.. No matter what it cant be worse than watching this shit show now.. we have less than zero percent chance of winning any game in the playoffs the way we sit now..

Time for the panic button... Taking deep breaths and waiting two more games to figure it out wont cut it.. Good lord we got pummeled by the Bungles...

Fuck i am pissed...

[Professor Half Wit]

In Juju's defense, he is not screaming for more balls or tossing water coolers or furniture off balconies.

[DP39]

Nah, I think Munch will never come back.

For me the way the offense and the O-line is currently playing and structured is a concession to an aging, past his prime Ben. Even if you put new, high draft picks in front of him, is he still going to do shotgun? Still not be willing to do rollouts? Still not want to do QB sneaks? Still want to get the ball out with his first read?? It was head scratching to me to see him throw short into a heavily covered WR when if he had held the ball a second longer he may have had a much longer pass play to Claypool, perhaps even a TD? I saw that twice in the first quarter!

It was fascinating to me that Cincy last night had their 3rd QB do some run pass options and gouged us for some long runs. Ben can't do that at this point.

I don't see what there is to cling to anymore with Ben. He will be 39 in March and the arm looks terrible to me, has all season long. Where are those passes that lead the WR to maximize the run after the catch? The ball placement has been off all year, and the farther he has to throw down the field, the less accurate he is, and even the short passes are adventurous, often too low, or too high, hard for your young WRs to run after the catch if they have to adjust to your lame duck passes.

In terms of the defense, I think you have to look at this defense as if it is 2004-2005. That is a good 3-4 years before the 2008 defense. In 2004-2005 you had a Troy Polamalu who was only in his 2nd and 3rd years. You look at Watt, Fitz, Bush, etc, they are still so damn young. In 3-4 years time they will still be in their prime and yes, you may have a Heyward that will retire but then over these next 3-4 years, what other pieces will the Steelers add?? This defense right now, may only be that 2005 defense, but will get much better just 3 years later. Kimo Von Oelhoffen was gone in 2008, but Brett Kiesel replaced him.

This 2019-2020 defense does not have to be the pinnacle, to be similar to that 2008 defense, where it is all downhill from here, no, it can be like that 2005 defense that got better years later, as Joey Porter left and James Harrison rose, as Clark Haggans gave way to Lamar Woodley, as Larry Foote gave way to Lawrence Timmons, etc.

You do what it takes to keep that strong defense together and get rid of the bloated offense and old vets that are past their prime.

I agree with most all of this. And, I've been saying a lot of it regarding Ben for a while now. Ben's unwillingness to do the things modern NFL offenses do is killing us. Tomlin's unwillingness to demand that he spend his time putting in the required work to perfect them is also one of our biggest problem. Tomlin doesn't require 'real' hard work from his players, because he's a bullshitter -- a used car salesman. To me, you challenge a vet just like you do a rookie, but Tomlin won't do that. He let's them work the system, just like he does.

While I have mostly gratitude towards Ben and his career here, I have for many years wished Tomlin was never hired.

It's time to move on from both Ben and Tomlin. But, unfortunately, Tomlin will still be here after Ben is long gone.