BSPN on Andy Reid

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Havoc
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Re: BSPN on Andy Reid

Post by Havoc » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:30 pm

Ice wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:02 pm
So, I think you might be remembering Bill Cowher offensive football with some undue nostalgia... 1994 and 95 were years with some pretty stellar numbers, but there was a lot of yinzer rock pounding orgasm football in there, as well, and almost without exception, it went down like a lead balloon in the playoffs. The current Steeler offense has fallen off in terms of what it was three, four, or five years ago, but those were pretty record-settingly good Steeler offensive teams, with talent and numbers not really seen in Pittsburgh since Brad, Rocky, Franco, Swann and Stallworth. Are we forgetting the Kevin Gilbride/Ray Sherman years? They did generate a couple of excellent Stillers nicknames, but not much in terms of offensive production. I'll grant Tomlin isn't Sean McVay, but ask a Seattle fan if Pete Carroll is, either. Or a whole bunch of their players, for that matter.
Steelers had seasons with a playoff win over 50% of the seasons we had Cowher at HC. It's fallen to 28.5% under Tomlin. That's the dropoff I'm speaking of.

Offensive numbers are relative to each season. Our Tomlin/Ben/AB/Bell offense never put up the numbers that matter relative to the league that our late 70's offense did either RS or PS. The 2015 RS stretch of games with DWill at RB when we ran the offense in the first half of games differently than we usually did with Bell at RB demonstrated with the right (same) approach with Bell at RB we could have gotten more out of the offense.


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Pabst
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Post by Pabst » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:39 pm

jeemie wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:51 pm
Havoc wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:49 pm
Mike Tomlin SUCKS on the offensive side of the football.

You CANNOT have that in a HC in today's league.

He is an albatross to offense which I've been saying for years.

The idea that this franchise is still at the level Cowher left it is false. The franchise has declined under the Mike Tomlin.

The Steelers are no longer what they were.
It is amazing how bad he is on that side of the ball, and he compounds it by not hiring an offensive genius and giving them free rein to make it work.
Steelers were a top 10 offense every single year (in both scoring and yards) between 2014 - 2018. They were top 5 in both categories in 2015.

Yes, they've absolutely collapsed in the last 2 seasons, but that happens when most of your O-Line is over 30, your QB is old/injured, and your best skill position players leave.

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Ice
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Post by Ice » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:42 pm

How'd Ben/AB/Bell/Juju/Bryant do compared to Tomczak/Bettis, Kent Graham and...? or Jim Miller and...? You jumped to the 70s offense (featuring four skill position HOFers and started cherrypicking leaguewide comparo stats, but your OP stated that Tomlin's offenses have been worse than Cowher's, which they categorically have not.
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Havoc
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Post by Havoc » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm

Ice wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:42 pm
How'd Ben/AB/Bell/Juju/Bryant do compared to Tomczak/Bettis, Kent Graham and...? or Jim Miller and...? You jumped to the 70s offense (featuring four skill position HOFers and started cherrypicking leaguewide comparo stats, but your OP stated that Tomlin's offenses have been worse than Cowher's, which they categorically have not.
Was this for me Ice?

If so...

You brought up our 70's offense. I responded to it.

No cherry picking.

Late 70's...

#1 RS scoring offense.
Offense that averaged over 30ppg in back to back Lombardi post seasons when over 30 set you apart.

Our QB led the league in TD throws
League MVP for our QB

Our late 70's offense was an another RS level. Our late 70's offense was on another PS level.

Again, the decline I was referring to, under Cowher we had over 50% of our seasons with a playoff win. We have fallen to 28.5% under Tomlin.
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Ice
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Post by Ice » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:50 pm

I'm saying that "Tomlin doesn't know offense" isn't really fair in the context of the OP, which was comparing the Cowher Era to Tomlin's, and didn't mention the playoffs win percentage stats at all. Tomlin's offenses have been considerably better than Cowher's.

Let's not move the goal posts from the OP.
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Havoc
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Post by Havoc » Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:40 pm

I have not read the OP ESPN article
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Ice
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Post by Ice » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:56 pm

Havoc wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:49 pm
Mike Tomlin SUCKS on the offensive side of the football.

You CANNOT have that in a HC in today's league.

He is an albatross to offense which I've been saying for years.

The idea that this franchise is still at the level Cowher left it is false. The franchise has declined under the Mike Tomlin.

The Steelers are no longer what they were.
I was referring to this one. I don't click on BSPN articles, either :lol:
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Havoc
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Post by Havoc » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:41 pm

Ice wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:56 pm
Havoc wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:49 pm
Mike Tomlin SUCKS on the offensive side of the football.

You CANNOT have that in a HC in today's league.

He is an albatross to offense which I've been saying for years.

The idea that this franchise is still at the level Cowher left it is false. The franchise has declined under the Mike Tomlin.

The Steelers are no longer what they were.
I was referring to this one. I don't click on BSPN articles, either :lol:
I wasn't clear.

I'm not saying the franchise has declined because the offense has declined from Cowher to Tomlin.

I'm saying the post season standard of over 50% of our seasons with a playoff win has declined to 28.5% under Tomlin. That's a post season standard started with Noll which Cowher upheld.

And I'm saying Tomlin sucks on offense in today's NFL when you cannot have a HC that sucks on that side of the football.
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Post by Kodiak » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:52 pm

Havoc wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:41 pm
And I'm simply saying Tomlin sucks on offense in today's NFL when you cannot have a HC that sucks on that side of the football.
Or at least know how to stay our of your own way. It definitely feels like he boxes in the offense. I think Tomlin's fingerprints were all over the Fitchner experiment. Fitchner comes selling 10-12 play, 6 minute drives with small ball and Tomlin creamed his pants.

Remember, Ben went down in Wk2 last year, and they continued running the same offense the entire year. The offense didn't change for Mason, and it didn't change for Duck, or back to Mason. Defenses caught on, and they fell apart down the stretch.

So everyone thinks a more capable QB keeps them from hitting that wall. And Ben's mastery did make it work again for about 10-11 weeks, more or less. But then defenses took away what we wanted to do, and we stubbornly continued trying to force it anyway.


If this was how they chose to cover-up a failing OL, while ignoring the root problem - for TWO years - that's a fire-able offense. Not for PMT, obviously, but for any HC on just about any other team.
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Ice
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Post by Ice » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:12 am

Honestly, maybe the disturbing part of Mason and Duck's play last season was how much better each looked coming into games cold than they did after a week of "coaching." Both were considerably better when they weren't prepared.
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Post by stillcajun » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:11 am

Ice wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:12 am
Honestly, maybe the disturbing part of Mason and Duck's play last season was how much better each looked coming into games cold than they did after a week of "coaching." Both were considerably better when they weren't prepared.
Just like it seemed that Steven Nelson looked better his 1st year vs. his 2nd year w/ the team...Kinda strange ain't it

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Ice
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Post by Ice » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:21 am

Honestly, LB, maybe DL, possibly WR are about the only positions where you can say we see an upward trajectory with several of the players. WR and DL wouldn't have had maybes associated with them until the last season or so. If we're going to go into a rebuild, we're going to need some better teaching from our coaches.
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Havoc
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Post by Havoc » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:41 pm

Andy Reid...

In 22 seasons as HC of Eagles and Chiefs...

11 seasons with a playoff win. 50% of the seasons with Reid at HC, those fan bases got to enjoy a playoff win.

Mike Tomlin...

In 14 seasons as HC of the Steelers...

4 seasons with a playoff win. 28.5%

Too many one and done post seasons beat down a fan base. Steelers Nation is beat down.

Tomlin is not on the level of Reid.
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