what kind of deal they will offer #7 to stay?

[tbsteel]

Explain to me how he has never taken a hit for the betterment of the team? Remember, although you can blame Ben for his situation, he has nearly zero endorsement money now or in the future––other QBs of his stature have millions per year. He'll go down as one of the most underpaid QBs of his era (who doesn't have a supermodel wife).

Trying to avoid poking the bear, but what?

He's made $253.3 million in his career. Over a quarter of a billion dollars. He's currently the third highest paid player of all time behind Brady and Brees, two players significantly better and more valuable than him (who have played several more seasons than him). If Brady retires along with Brees and if Ben rakes in the $15 million roster bonus in March along with whatever salary he gets next season, he will be the top earner in NFL history. One of the most underpaid QBs of his era? C'mon, that's ludicrous and disingenuous.

[blu]

We all saw what happened to Mahomes last Sunday without a decent o-line & he has mobility. To put Ben behind the present Steeler o-line & not have him repeatedly be hit & sacked - he'll have to continue to throw the ball quick, with no play action & the rest. Every NFL defence will be prepared for that. Do the Steelers want to continue to humble Ben in that manner & if they try to open up the offence & Ben agrees - how long before he's injured? Do we want that & then we'll have the backups starting regardless with $19m of the cap wasted.

[bradshaw2ben]

PS about him getting paid. If I’m not mistaken his cap hit as a percentage of overall cap hit has always been larger than someone like, say Tom Brady. I stand willing to be corrected on that.

Plus when restructure his deals he’s not getting less money...he’s getting more money upfront so his cap hit can be spread out.

The best way is to go by how much money the dude has actually been paid out over his career.

In 21 seasons, Tom Brady has earned only $10 million more than Ben has in 17 years. Tom has 7 rings...Ben has 2.

Who’s been the better value, in both absolute and results terms?

You can't seriously be using Brady as an example of a guy making less money so why doesn't Ben? Brady and his kids could all go their whole lives without ever having made a dollar and have money left over for a generation.

Brees, Brady, & Ben have all made great money for QBs of the older generation, aided by their longevity. The net few guys... Matt Ryan/Russell Wilson/Stafford all made more per year since they've been around and will blow by the older guy's career earnings.

Matt Ryan 4 fewer seasons, 10M behind. Stafford 5 fewer seasons 27M russell Wilson 8 fewer seasons, 91M

But the best example of all is Eli Manning, who made the same amount of money as Ben... in one fewer season. Ben played a season for free compared to Eli.

[bradshaw2ben]

Explain to me how he has never taken a hit for the betterment of the team? Remember, although you can blame Ben for his situation, he has nearly zero endorsement money now or in the future––other QBs of his stature have millions per year. He'll go down as one of the most underpaid QBs of his era (who doesn't have a supermodel wife).

Trying to avoid poking the bear, but what?

He's made $253.3 million in his career. Over a quarter of a billion dollars. He's currently the third highest paid player of all time behind Brady and Brees, two players significantly better and more valuable than him (who have played several more seasons than him). If Brady retires along with Brees and if Ben rakes in the $15 million roster bonus in March along with whatever salary he gets next season, he will be the top earner in NFL history. One of the most underpaid QBs of his era? C'mon, that's ludicrous and disingenuous.

First off, he's not going to make the $15M roster bonus.

Secondly, HTF is Brees "significantly more valuable" than Ben over the course of his career?

Thirdly, see above post for a breakdown of why he's #3 and whay the next gen of QBs will blow by him.

[jeemie]

PS about him getting paid. If I’m not mistaken his cap hit as a percentage of overall cap hit has always been larger than someone like, say Tom Brady. I stand willing to be corrected on that.

Plus when restructure his deals he’s not getting less money...he’s getting more money upfront so his cap hit can be spread out.

The best way is to go by how much money the dude has actually been paid out over his career.

In 21 seasons, Tom Brady has earned only $10 million more than Ben has in 17 years. Tom has 7 rings...Ben has 2.

Who’s been the better value, in both absolute and results terms?

You can't seriously be using Brady as an example of a guy making less money so why doesn't Ben? Brady and his kids could all go their whole lives without ever having made a dollar and have money left over for a generation.

Brees, Brady, & Ben have all made great money for QBs of the older generation, aided by their longevity. The net few guys... Matt Ryan/Russell Wilson/Stafford all made more per year since they've been around and will blow by the older guy's career earnings.

Matt Ryan 4 fewer seasons, 10M behind. Stafford 5 fewer seasons 27M russell Wilson 8 fewer seasons, 91M

But the best example of all is Eli Manning, who made the same amount of money as Ben... in one fewer season. Ben played a season for free compared to Eli.

Yes I’m pointing to Brady as an example of someone making less money so why doesn’t Ben?

Why?

Because Brady fucking proved that that model BRINGS CHAMPIONSHIPS with it!

The other QBs getting paid more and not having the rings shows that model doesn’t work!

Because it’s hard to win a championship when so much of your cap space is tied up in one guy!

Is the goal a ring, or cash?

As this year proved, it’s going to become even harder when they add that 17th game and the odds are one of the Super Bowl teams is going to show up with a critical injury or two, like KC had on its O-line this year.

PS Ben not getting endorsement money is partly/mostly his own fault.

[Ice]

I'll go ahead take issue with Brees being "significantly better" than Ben.

[zeke5123]

Y'all forgetting that Brady and the Pats pretty clearly circumvented the cap to pay Brady more money. That is, they purchased from his ludicrous TB12 line.

My question for anyone who wants to defend that -- would the Pats have bought anything from TB12 if he was the QB of say Colts? Since we all know the answer is no, then the payments were made to Brady qua player; not qua 3P vendor.

[K_C_]

I'll go ahead take issue with Brees being "significantly better" than Ben.

Brees isn't significantly better than Ben, but it looks to me like Drew knows when it's time to get out, before it hurts his legacy.

We'll see if Ben does.

[zeke5123]

I'll go ahead take issue with Brees being "significantly better" than Ben.

Especially since Ben was saddled most of his career with Puntlin.

[zeke5123]

I'll go ahead take issue with Brees being "significantly better" than Ben.

Brees isn't significantly better than Ben, but it looks to me like Drew knows when it's time to get out, before it hurts his legacy.

We'll see if Ben does.

As in all things, I cannot wait for you to be proven wrong.

[Jobu]

Interesting article here. Admittedly, I know very little about the NFL salary cap and such, but this brings up a lot of questions, IMO.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/308 ... atform=amp
If he’s retiring, why agree to a salary reduction? Wouldn’t his entire salary come off the books?

[K_C_]

I'll go ahead take issue with Brees being "significantly better" than Ben.

Brees isn't significantly better than Ben, but it looks to me like Drew knows when it's time to get out, before it hurts his legacy.

We'll see if Ben does.

As in all things, I cannot wait for you to be proven wrong.

How, specifically, do you believe I'll be proven wrong?

Next season Ben won't throw 4 picks in a home playoff loss to the inferior Browns?

He won't look like he needs a wheelchair when he tries to move in the pocket?

PS cuddles, he's got many more people to prove wrong than me...namely, his owner.

When's the last time you heard Rooney say; "Yeah....Ben isn't coming back at the current price tag"?

...and I'm FAR from the only person believing Ben will be seen as the third best QB in his own division, sport.

Believe it.

[tbsteel]

In terms of individual accomplishments? The stuff that leads to guys being paid more? There's no comparison between Ben and Brees. Brees has made 5 All Pros, Ben none, has made 13 Pro Bowls to Ben's 6, is a 2x OPOTY, is the current all time NFL passing leader, has led the league in TDs 4 times, smashes Ben per Football Outsiders career quarterback value... you know, accomplishment's Ben has never sniffed.

Facts are facts.

Saying Ben "will go down as one of the most underpaid QBs of his era" is factually wrong. 100%. When he retires he'll have been paid more money by the Steelers than any other player in NFL history. But hey, if it helps some sleep better at night so be it.

[Ice]

The yards, well, look at the systems. Brees has played in a stat-padding system his entire Saints career, against a division that has fielded some lousy defenses, even compared to the North. The All Pros and Pro Bowls? That's media hype. Postseason wins, YPA, Super Bowls... Ben has some things going for him as well.

[jebrick]

Interesting article here. Admittedly, I know very little about the NFL salary cap and such, but this brings up a lot of questions, IMO.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/308 ... atform=amp
If he’s retiring, why agree to a salary reduction? Wouldn’t his entire salary come off the books?

THat is a head scracher.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans ... rees-4542/

It looks like he has 2 voidable years on his contract but I am not sure what they are talking about. Guaranteed money is guaranteed by the CBA. He can't give it back. As others have said, that money has already been paid. At best they could cut him as a post June1

[bradshaw2ben]

The yards, well, look at the systems. Brees has played in a stat-padding system his entire Saints career, against a division that has fielded some lousy defenses, even compared to the North. The All Pros and Pro Bowls? That's media hype. Postseason wins, YPA, Super Bowls... Ben has some things going for him as well.

IN. A. DOME. FOR 9+ GAMES PER YEAR. San Diego for 8+ per before that. Huge difference over the course of their careers. And look at the wins!

If TEAMS pay players on MEDIA HYPE, they are DUMBASSES (i.e. the Browns, et al).

[bradshaw2ben]

Interesting article here. Admittedly, I know very little about the NFL salary cap and such, but this brings up a lot of questions, IMO.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/308 ... atform=amp
If he’s retiring, why agree to a salary reduction? Wouldn’t his entire salary come off the books?

THat is a head scracher.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans ... rees-4542/

It looks like he has 2 voidable years on his contract but I am not sure what they are talking about. Guaranteed money is guaranteed by the CBA. He can't give it back. As others have said, that money has already been paid. At best they could cut him as a post June1

The answer has to do with the retirement scenario. I'm sure @Scunge can explain it better but when player retires, those future years cap hits can be spread even farther and IIRC some of it can be eliminated.

[Jobu]

Interesting article here. Admittedly, I know very little about the NFL salary cap and such, but this brings up a lot of questions, IMO.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/308 ... atform=amp
If he’s retiring, why agree to a salary reduction? Wouldn’t his entire salary come off the books?

THat is a head scracher.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans ... rees-4542/

It looks like he has 2 voidable years on his contract but I am not sure what they are talking about. Guaranteed money is guaranteed by the CBA. He can't give it back. As others have said, that money has already been paid. At best they could cut him as a post June1

The answer has to do with the retirement scenario. I'm sure @Scunge can explain it better but when player retires, those future years cap hits can be spread even farther and IIRC some of it can be eliminated.

It’s very possible I’m missing something...or everything , but they’re talking about his 2021 salary. The article claims that his pay cut from $25 mil to vet minimum suggests he’s going to retire. IMO it suggests just the opposite. If he retires, doesn’t the entire $25 mil salary for 21 go away? It sounds to me that maybe he’s cutting the team a break, the way some suggest Ben should do, by playing in 21 under the vet minimum salary.
Again, I could be way off base.

[tbsteel]

You guys are really going to die on the hill the Ben > Brees? That's going to be a pretty lonely hill. Don't even think most ex-Steelers would take Ben over Brees, let alone few if any other ex-players, analysts, fans, students of the game, or otherwise. Brees never had a top 5 D in his career. The playoff games Ben lost against the Jags and Browns? That's Drew Brees' life every year. Same basically with Rodgers. Rodgers had 1 top 5 D his entire career -> won SB that season. What's Ben's playoff record without having the #1 ranked D in the NFL? I believe it's 3-6 now with no AFC titles and obviously no SBs. And we didn't allow more than 16 points in any of those 3 wins. Oh snap, that whole team game thing. It's almost like we won more when we had the #1 D in football and had guys like Santonio Holmes returning punts for TDs, or James Harrison returning a pick 6 in the SB, or our D forcing three turnovers in the third quarter against the Ravens all on their side of the field to completely change the game, or Willie Gay recovering a fumble for a TD, or scoring with a WR throwback to Ben against the Bengals or a WR throwing a TD in the Super Bowl.... almost, almost, ALMOST like it's a team game or some wild shit.

Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... you all can argue all day on this super unbiased Steelers message board, but Ben ain't on their level historically. Ben is a rung down. A lot of wasted keystrokes trying to argue or prove otherwise.

[Steelperch]

I really hate Steelers “fans” sometimes.

[MJG75]

I think they add a year and $4 million to Ben’s contract. That $19 million becomes $23 million spread over two years with more of it going into next year. That should lower his 2021 cap hit by say $10 million and everyone saves face. Ben gets $23 million spread over two years without the appearance of playing for a basement level contract. The team keeps him and allows him to go out on his terms.

Best option I have read. No way does he not deserve to go out on his own terms. Jeemie mentioned Franco. No way do I ever want a repeat of that most dishonorable moment in Steelers history. Franco also deserved to be paid and to go out on his own terms. As does Ben.

You play players for what they can do for you now, not what they did for you in the past.

And Ben isn’t Franco...Ben has gotten max deals his entire career. He’s already been paid for what he’s given us.

I wouldn’t mind doing this...if...IF...I believed this team..especially Ben and the coaching staff...would pull out all the stops, go against type, in a last effort for a Lombardi.

But since none of them think they’re not doing it right, that won’t happen. You know it and I know it.

So why delay the arrival of the future?

Franco gained over 1000 yards in 1983. I get that they wanted to go in a different direction, most likely (sounds familiar with what we are looking at now, a rebuild time). However, you might do this with one of the non-HOF players (and we did after the 1977 season, there was a "purge" if you recall). But not with Franco. He's not just a player. He wasn't just a good player. He was one of the foundational building blocks of the dynasty and still had plenty of gas left in the tank after 1983. His performance with the Seahawks should not be used to judge what he would have been as a Steeler. I'm sorry, that struck a raw nerve with me back then, and continues to thrum a bit now.

Believe it or not, it's not always about money. It's about honor, it's about devotion, it's about respect, it's about loyalty, it's about what is right. The Bucs should have paid Cutch to stay here a few more years until we were ready for the full on rebuild. Even then, he could still play a role. The Steelers are generally better at this than most teams, as in terms of Hines, they let the man play at least one year too long. They do understand some of that, and perhaps they have learned a lesson since the 80s. Ben deserves everything this town and our fans can honor him with, and damn, he can still play, you know? I realize money is an issue with the cap, and they will have to work that out, but it's not always the ONLY thing that teams should worry about. As The Chief believed, sports teams are a public trust and the public will want to send off the second most successful QB in Steelers history, without whom we would still be loving on 4 instead of 6.

[anpsteel]

You guys are really going to die on the hill the Ben > Brees? That's going to be a pretty lonely hill. Don't even think most ex-Steelers would take Ben over Brees, let alone few if any other ex-players, analysts, fans, students of the game, or otherwise. Brees never had a top 5 D in his career. The playoff games Ben lost against the Jags and Browns? That's Drew Brees' life every year. Same basically with Rodgers. Rodgers had 1 top 5 D his entire career -> won SB that season. What's Ben's playoff record without having the #1 ranked D in the NFL? I believe it's 3-6 now with no AFC titles and obviously no SBs. And we didn't allow more than 16 points in any of those 3 wins. Oh snap, that whole team game thing. It's almost like we won more when we had the #1 D in football and had guys like Santonio Holmes returning punts for TDs, or James Harrison returning a pick 6 in the SB, or our D forcing three turnovers in the third quarter against the Ravens all on their side of the field to completely change the game, or Willie Gay recovering a fumble for a TD, or scoring with a WR throwback to Ben against the Bengals or a WR throwing a TD in the Super Bowl.... almost, almost, ALMOST like it's a team game or some wild shit.

Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... you all can argue all day on this super unbiased Steelers message board, but Ben ain't on their level historically. Ben is a rung down. A lot of wasted keystrokes trying to argue or prove otherwise.

You are exactly right, regarding Brees and Rogers. People like to point out that each of them, only have 1 SB victory - when compared to Ben.

In respect to Brees: while NO has had some amazing offensive weapons, and much better play calling, over the years, you'd be challendged to suggest their overall rosters were on par with the Steelers over that period of time.

When compared to GB, there isn't a facet of that teams roster that has been better than the Steelers over the duration. - Possibly, including coaching.

Given the Steelers roster, and either of those QBs, particularly Aaron Rogers, the Steelers have 2 more SBs, imo.

[tbsteel]

I really hate Steelers “fans” sometimes.

Aren't you the "fan" who said he is going to quit watching football once Ben retires?

God forbid someone dare try and suggest Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers will universally be seen as better historical QBs than Big Ben. What absolute lunacy. I mean, you'd have to taking crazy pills to think that...

[Pabst]

In respect to Brees: while NO has had some amazing offensive weapons, and much better play calling, over the years, you'd be challendged to suggest their overall rosters were on par with the Steelers over that period of time.

When compared to GB, there isn't a facet of that teams roster that has been better than the Steelers over the duration. - Possibly, including coaching.

Saints Roster:
2017: 7 Pro Bowl, 2 All Pro
2018: 8 Pro Bowl, 5 All Pro
2019: 11 Pro Bowl, 6 All Pro
2020: 5 Pro Bowl, 0 All Pro


Steelers Roster:
2017: 10 Pro Bowl, 4 All Pro
2018: 8 Pro Bowl, 1 All Pro
2019: 6 Pro Bowl, 5 All Pro
2020: 5 Pro Bowl, 3 All Pro


I'll go ahead and suggest that the Saints roster was at least on par with the Steelers.

Green Bay is a bit more spotty, but they had 6 players named to the AP All Pro team this season (twice as many as Pittsburgh). If you want to go back to the 2010 season, Green Bay had 6 Pro Bowl players and 3 All Pros.....Steelers had 4 and 3, respectively. The following year, GB had 7 & 3 while Pittsburgh had 7 & 2.

[K_C_]

I really hate Steelers “fans” sometimes.

Aren't you the "fan" who said he is going to quit watching football once Ben retires?

God forbid someone dare try and suggest Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers will universally be seen as better historical QBs than Big Ben. What absolute lunacy. I mean, you'd have to taking crazy pills to think that...

Brees and Rodgers are seen as elite QB's RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Brees will be retiring as a guy fans and experts see as a QB who knew his skills were diminishing and left while he was still seen as great.

Ben Roethlisberger is no longer seen as an elite QB.

He simply isn't and we'll see if continuing to play harms or enhances Ben's legacy. That is going to be interesting.

But no...Ben isn't seen as being in the same class as Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees or Wilson these days.

Huh uh.

[Ice]

I really hate Steelers “fans” sometimes.

Aren't you the "fan" who said he is going to quit watching football once Ben retires?

God forbid someone dare try and suggest Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers will universally be seen as better historical QBs than Big Ben. What absolute lunacy. I mean, you'd have to taking crazy pills to think that...

Here we go again with "will be seen as." Yes, with his inflated stats, media hype, cute storylines, Brees quite possibly "will be seen as" better than Ben. Doesn't make it true. All of those counting stats he has will look smaller as time goes on. So, for a while, sure. All time leader in this or that. A whole lot of 10 yard out patterns. I literally can't think of a really memorable Drew Brees play. Like pouring water on cardboard and watching it dry.

[Ice]

I really hate Steelers “fans” sometimes.

Aren't you the "fan" who said he is going to quit watching football once Ben retires?

God forbid someone dare try and suggest Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers will universally be seen as better historical QBs than Big Ben. What absolute lunacy. I mean, you'd have to taking crazy pills to think that...

Brees and Rodgers are seen as elite QB's RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Brees will be retiring as a guy fans and experts see as a QB who knew his skills were diminishing and left while he was still seen as great.

Ben Roethlisberger is no longer seen as an elite QB.

He simply isn't and we'll see if continuing to play harms or enhances Ben's legacy. That is going to be interesting.

But no...Ben isn't seen as being in the same class as Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees or Wilson these days.

Huh uh.

Brees hasn't been elite for a while. When Taysom Hill and Teddy Bridgewater win at a far higher clip than you over the last 2.5 seasons, elite you are not.

[Havoc]

Let's not forget, at one point this season there was a "picture" posted of Ben sitting on the division QB throne.

Fix the OL, fix the run game, another off season for that unprecedented surgically repaired arm and Ben might be sitting on that throne again.

[K_C_]

Aren't you the "fan" who said he is going to quit watching football once Ben retires?

God forbid someone dare try and suggest Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers will universally be seen as better historical QBs than Big Ben. What absolute lunacy. I mean, you'd have to taking crazy pills to think that...

Brees and Rodgers are seen as elite QB's RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Brees will be retiring as a guy fans and experts see as a QB who knew his skills were diminishing and left while he was still seen as great.

Ben Roethlisberger is no longer seen as an elite QB.

He simply isn't and we'll see if continuing to play harms or enhances Ben's legacy. That is going to be interesting.

But no...Ben isn't seen as being in the same class as Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees or Wilson these days.

Huh uh.

Brees hasn't been elite for a while. When Taysom Hill and Teddy Bridgewater win at a far higher clip than you over the last 2.5 seasons, elite you are not.

Brees' last few years haven't been ridiculous stat-wise, but even last year in an injury shortened year, he threw 27 TD passes and only had 4 picks. 32 and 5 one year earlier.

The run Brees went on from 2008-2018 is pretty unbelievable.

Dude knows it's time to hang 'em up. Gotta respect that.

[Ice]

Let's not forget, at one point this season there was a "picture" posted of Ben sitting on the division QB throne.

Fix the OL, fix the run game, another off season for that unprecedented surgically repaired arm and Ben might be sitting on that throne again.

Very true. Ben was considered top tier 5 months ago. Was a nice photoshop, by the way, especially as an ASIOAF fan (still waiting for Winds of Winter, by the way, George...). Didn't exactly age well, but we can't have everything.