What will it take to admit Kenny is a bust?

[TimmayLake]

Does he have to suck until the end of his rookie deal or is it possible we cut bait earlier and draft/trade for a new QB? The stats don't lie and it seems like all we have is the tall tale of Kenny being a "gamer" or "clutch" but the numbers simply don't back that up. Again, if he graduated from any college other than Pitt I think the Steelers never draft him...

[Obviously]

Does he have to suck until the end of his rookie deal or is it possible we cut bait earlier and draft/trade for a new QB? The stats don't lie and it seems like all we have is the tall tale of Kenny being a "gamer" or "clutch" but the numbers simply don't back that up. Again, if he graduated from any college other than Pitt I think the Steelers never draft him...

Well, just look at the guy who is going to be under center this coming Thursday, Mitch Trubisky. The second overall pick in the 2017 NFL Draft, and he'll be starting for the Steelers. He's the very definition of a bust and was before he even put on a Steelers uniform, yet here he is. If the Steelers are patient enough for him to be on the team, imagine what lengths they'll go to for someone they actually picked in the first round, and, by the way, is a Pitt alum as you mention. Kenny's gonna be in a Steelers uni for the foreseeable future, I'm afraid.

[Steelperch]

For some here we’d have to acquire an entire Pro Bowl roster and coaching staff, then give Kenny another 3 years to figure it out. If he wasn’t a top 20 QB by that time, they’d just say Canada ruined him and he was actually a great QB the Steelers screwed over.

[Stlcrtn1974]

Im giving him to next year with new oc. If Rooney was smart, which apparently he isn't, he should fire Tomlin and let another coaching staff try to fix him if possible.

Unfortunately, Tomlin is here next year with his oc that he will pick which will result in the same bullshit we have been watching for the last 10 years.

Tomlin has actually insulated himself quite nicely over the last decade, blaming his coordinators for the Steelers shortfalls.

What we have been forced to watch is worse then Marvin Lewis Bengals. Maybe Carolina will want Tomlin or Rooney just pulls the plug on Tomlin and starts over.

[Stillchest]

Im giving him to next year with new oc. If Rooney was smart, which apparently he isn't, he should fire Tomlin and let another coaching staff try to fix him if possible.

Unfortunately, Tomlin is here next year with his oc that he will pick which will result in the same bullshit we have been watching for the last 10 years.

Tomlin has actually insulated himself quite nicely over the last decade, blaming his coordinators for the Steelers shortfalls.

What we have been forced to watch is worse then Marvin Lewis Bengals. Maybe Carolina will want Tomlin or Rooney just pulls the plug on Tomlin and starts over.

I have little doubt that Art II initiated Canada’s departure.

Tomlin can take responsibility in public all he wants to, but I see right through his lies. Tomlin seemed pissed, answering questions about the Canada firing, as Canada was Tomlin’s boy, a friend l, and another unqualified for the NFL dope, Tomlin gravitates towards.

If we’re fortunate, Rooney will not give Jibbs an extension during this offseason, and maybe Tomlin will be allowed to bow out, by another bullshit reason the Steelers can drum up, to protect Tomlin from the embarrassment of being fired.

[zeke5123]

Im giving him to next year with new oc. If Rooney was smart, which apparently he isn't, he should fire Tomlin and let another coaching staff try to fix him if possible.

Unfortunately, Tomlin is here next year with his oc that he will pick which will result in the same bullshit we have been watching for the last 10 years.

Tomlin has actually insulated himself quite nicely over the last decade, blaming his coordinators for the Steelers shortfalls.

What we have been forced to watch is worse then Marvin Lewis Bengals. Maybe Carolina will want Tomlin or Rooney just pulls the plug on Tomlin and starts over.

My question is why?

1. Pickett wasn’t heavily recruited out of high school.

2. Pickett did not have a good college career until his fifth year playing in a so so conference with a great WR.

3. Pickett doesn’t have any outlier tools (eg great arm, scrambling ability, ability to move well within the pocket / shrug off tacklers, great accuracy, strong ability to read the defense).

Given the three above, what makes anyone think Pickett was a good prospect to start with? Especially given that Pickett is already old. How much development does he have left? The reasonable best case scenario is mediocre starter and it would take a lot to get there.

[Louis Lipps Service]

Personally, I was waiting until the end of this season to see if he continued to how improvement after Canada's departure.

And I have no loyalty to Kenny, or any other player really. The amount of people who hold on to their agendas one way or the other and refuse to give any ground whatsoever over a refusal to admit their opinion may have had even the slightest of flaws, quite frankly, baffles me.

Here, I'll say a couple things out loud.

I have no idea if Kenny Pickett will ever be a good NFL QB.

Kenny Pickett, during the Matt Canada era, sucked balls.

Kenny Pickett, in the one game he played without Matt Canada, showed significant improvement. Many of the flaws shown during the Matt Canada era were seemingly missing in that one game.

That previous sentence used the word "many of the flaws", not "all of the flaws".

One game is not enough evidence to prove anything, but it is enough to give a glimmer of hope.

I have no idea if Kenny Pickett will ever be a good NFL QB, but I was encouraged by some of the signs I saw from the one game without Canada that I wanted to see more before this season ended.

I apologize for being reasonable, for not picking a side, and for not telling everyone who disagrees with me to fuck off, mop up jizz, or whatever other insult is standard procedure these days.

[K_C_]

Personally, I was waiting until the end of this season to see if he continued to how improvement after Canada's departure.

And I have no loyalty to Kenny, or any other player really. The amount of people who hold on to their agendas one way or the other and refuse to give any ground whatsoever over a refusal to admit their opinion may have had even the slightest of flaws, quite frankly, baffles me.

Here, I'll say a couple things out loud.

I have no idea if Kenny Pickett will ever be a good NFL QB.

Kenny Pickett, during the Matt Canada era, sucked balls.

Kenny Pickett, in the one game he played without Matt Canada, showed significant improvement. Many of the flaws shown during the Matt Canada era were seemingly missing in that one game.

That previous sentence used the word "many of the flaws", not "all of the flaws".

One game is not enough evidence to prove anything, but it is enough to give a glimmer of hope.

I have no idea if Kenny Pickett will ever be a good NFL QB, but I was encouraged by some of the signs I saw from the one game without Canada that I wanted to see more before this season ended.

I apologize for being reasonable, for not picking a side, and for not telling everyone who disagrees with me to fuck off, mop up jizz, or whatever other insult is standard procedure these days.

This is the normal, measured take.

If they replace Kenny in the draft this year, I'll root for the guy they draft just like I did Pickett.

I just don't think they're going to even consider replacing Pickett yet and I think he can get a lot better.

I think that's absolutely the right decision.

He wasn't playing badly at all yesterday and I think they win the game if he doesn't get hurt.

What the defense showed yesterday after Pickett went down....now THAT was fucking troubling.

Hopefully Mitch can steal a few wins in the upcoming weeks and will keep the playoff hopes alive.

Not a Mitch believer but he has my full support until Pickett is back.

Can't wait until Thursday!!

[jeemie]

I don’t think Kenny Pickett is as bad as, say, Zach Wilson, but I now don’t think he will be good. Maybe serviceable is his ceiling.

However I do think Canada ruined him. His first season…I don’t remember him being totally unable to process reads.

Which is where he is now.

We will never know, unfortunately, as long as Tomlin is around.

[fractalsteel]

Im giving him to next year with new oc. If Rooney was smart, which apparently he isn't, he should fire Tomlin and let another coaching staff try to fix him if possible.

Unfortunately, Tomlin is here next year with his oc that he will pick which will result in the same bullshit we have been watching for the last 10 years.

Tomlin has actually insulated himself quite nicely over the last decade, blaming his coordinators for the Steelers shortfalls.

What we have been forced to watch is worse then Marvin Lewis Bengals. Maybe Carolina will want Tomlin or Rooney just pulls the plug on Tomlin and starts over.

My question is why?

1. Pickett wasn’t heavily recruited out of high school.

2. Pickett did not have a good college career until his fifth year playing in a so so conference with a great WR.

3. Pickett doesn’t have any outlier tools (eg great arm, scrambling ability, ability to move well within the pocket / shrug off tacklers, great accuracy, strong ability to read the defense).

Given the three above, what makes anyone think Pickett was a good prospect to start with? Especially given that Pickett is already old. How much development does he have left? The reasonable best case scenario is mediocre starter and it would take a lot to get there.

KP was a late second round or early third round prospect in a league that overdrafts QB's on a regular basis.

Canada did KP no favors but a lot of blame goes to MT and his dinosaur offense for zip development. Not that there was a lot to work with from the start.
He has one more year but I'm pretty sure we are going to see the same guy that looks to bail out of the pocket at the first hint of pressure then wilts when it gets to him.
One more year of the Kenny Pickett Experience.

[Orangesteel]

We’ve had a wild few weeks. It’s obvious Canada was a poor OC and from the chatter just a miserable person to work with.

Nice work, Tomlin.

But the constant and what we are now seeing is there are some decent/good play designs and some of these were being called all year, but if your QB cannot read a defense and is wildly slow to react then nothing else matters.

Every QB misses open players. An ability to read a defense and pre-snap clues can make that happen far less. Kenny is BRUTAL at that part of quarterbacking. He’s terrible under pressure and his instincts are the worst I’ve seen from a starting QB in a long time. Duck Hodges read defenses better than Kenny.

Maybe this injury is a good thing. While turnover prone let’s see if Mitch’s presnap reads and progressions are even slightly better. If they are we might be able to take a few games and crawl into the playoffs.

[TimmayLake]

Kenny, at his best, can be a league average QB. That's perfectly fine, but not when you're a first round pick at a team that is trying to replace a HOF QB in Big Ben.

[Louis Lipps Service]

We’ve had a wild few weeks. It’s obvious Canada was a poor OC and from the chatter just a miserable person to work with.

Nice work, Tomlin.

But the constant and what we are now seeing is there are some decent/good play designs and some of these were being called all year, but if your QB cannot read a defense and is wildly slow to react then nothing else matters.

Every QB misses open players. An ability to read a defense and pre-snap clues can make that happen far less. Kenny is BRUTAL at that part of quarterbacking. He’s terrible under pressure and his instincts are the worst I’ve seen from a starting QB in a long time. Duck Hodges read defenses better than Kenny.

Maybe this injury is a good thing. While turnover prone let’s see if Mitch’s presnap reads and progressions are even slightly better. If they are we might be able to take a few games and crawl into the playoffs.

I think you're discounting the effect Canada's influence can have on a QB developing that aspect of his game. Imagine being a rookie and then a first year player, trying to read a defense when the defense literally knows what play you're going to run (confirmed by many opposing players, and even our players, at this point). Imagine trying to read a defense when the entire defense is playing within 15 yards of the LOS because they 100% know, without a shadow of the doubt, that the ball isn't going to go beyond that. Imagine how much defenders are going to jump short routes when they have that knowledge, and yet imagine our OC continuing to call those same short passes over and over again.

Then add a porous offensive line on top of that.

Then add repeated 3rd and long situations because our playcalling has been as unimaginative as possible.

Like I said above, maybe he does suck and maybe he truly can't read a defense. I'm completely open to that possibility and will be the first to admit if it that part never develops.

But damn if the guy hasn't been given the worse developmental environment possible to grow.

And when those shackles were lifted, I saw a different QB. Not a perfect QB by any measure. Not even a good QB by NFL standards. But I saw a different, and better, QB. I saw signs of decisiveness. I saw a willingness to throw downfield and use the middle. I saw, frankly, more confidence.

Was what I saw in that one game enough to tell me he's going to make it in this league? No. But it showed progress, and showed me just how much the coaching staff has been an anchor around his neck.

And I saw those same things in the 10 passes he threw in AZ. Again, he wasn't perfect. He wasn't even good enough. But he was better than he has been and trending upwards.

How about we wait and see how far he actually does trend before declaring him a bust? If/when that happens, you'll have plenty of time to bang your chests and tell everyone how right you were. Don't worry, you won't lose out on any internet fights, I promise.

I think a lot of people forget that Steelers best interest is for Pickett to pan out, which is exactly what you should be rooting for, instead of jumping at every opportunity to call him a bust before you, realistically, have any actual idea.

[Orangesteel]

You can call him whatever you want. My opinion of him is that he’s a bust given draft position. If he was taken in the 4th round or higher than who cares. First round he’s under the microscope. And it’s not (for me at least) about being right or wrong. It’s knowing what they knew about him out of college and what his tendencies and weaknesses were, why did a guy on his way out the door reach for Kenny as if the first round grade was legitimate? I agree with fractal in the other thread; the trend in the league right now is to overdraft QBs and in a year (almost historic year) where the QB class was so bad, Colbert went into warp speed overdraft mode with his assessment on Kenny.

It has been said that if you flip Pickens and Pickett it isn’t so bad; Pickens from what we seen is a legitimate first round talent. But I still think Kenny is a 4th a 5th round guy AND the error is compounded when they decided to bring back Mitch for like $8M a year and Mason for who the hell knows why.

[K_C_]

We’ve had a wild few weeks. It’s obvious Canada was a poor OC and from the chatter just a miserable person to work with.

Nice work, Tomlin.

But the constant and what we are now seeing is there are some decent/good play designs and some of these were being called all year, but if your QB cannot read a defense and is wildly slow to react then nothing else matters.

Every QB misses open players. An ability to read a defense and pre-snap clues can make that happen far less. Kenny is BRUTAL at that part of quarterbacking. He’s terrible under pressure and his instincts are the worst I’ve seen from a starting QB in a long time. Duck Hodges read defenses better than Kenny.

Maybe this injury is a good thing. While turnover prone let’s see if Mitch’s presnap reads and progressions are even slightly better. If they are we might be able to take a few games and crawl into the playoffs.

I think you're discounting the effect Canada's influence can have on a QB developing that aspect of his game. Imagine being a rookie and then a first year player, trying to read a defense when the defense literally knows what play you're going to run (confirmed by many opposing players, and even our players, at this point). Imagine trying to read a defense when the entire defense is playing within 15 yards of the LOS because they 100% know, without a shadow of the doubt, that the ball isn't going to go beyond that. Imagine how much defenders are going to jump short routes when they have that knowledge, and yet imagine our OC continuing to call those same short passes over and over again.

Then add a porous offensive line on top of that.

Then add repeated 3rd and long situations because our playcalling has been as unimaginative as possible.

Like I said above, maybe he does suck and maybe he truly can't read a defense. I'm completely open to that possibility and will be the first to admit if it that part never develops.

But damn if the guy hasn't been given the worse developmental environment possible to grow.

And when those shackles were lifted, I saw a different QB. Not a perfect QB by any measure. Not even a good QB by NFL standards. But I saw a different, and better, QB. I saw signs of decisiveness. I saw a willingness to throw downfield and use the middle. I saw, frankly, more confidence.

Was what I saw in that one game enough to tell me he's going to make it in this league? No. But it showed progress, and showed me just how much the coaching staff has been an anchor around his neck.

And I saw those same things in the 10 passes he threw in AZ. Again, he wasn't perfect. He wasn't even good enough. But he was better than he has been and trending upwards.

How about we wait and see how far he actually does trend before declaring him a bust? If/when that happens, you'll have plenty of time to bang your chests and tell everyone how right you were. Don't worry, you won't lose out on any internet fights, I promise.

I think a lot of people forget that Steelers best interest is for Pickett to pan out, which is exactly what you should be rooting for, instead of jumping at every opportunity to call him a bust before you, realistically, have any actual idea.

Great and fair post, which you rarely see around here.

I'm at the point where I believe they probably will draft Pickett's successor in the 2025 draft and if Mike Tomlin is still the head coach, the QB will suffer the same fate as Pickett.

He'll be ruined by being coached to play if too safe. I hope I'm wrong and the next guy turns out a superstar but if Mike Tomlin didn't seriously contend for anything the final decade of Ben Roethlisberger's career, then I expect the next QB, under Tomlin if he's still head coach, to fail miserably.

[tbsteel]

Kenny, at his best, can be a league average QB. That's perfectly fine, but not when you're a first round pick at a team that is trying to replace a HOF QB in Big Ben.

From what we've seen in 25 games, it looks like his ceiling is well below league average.

His ceiling looks like Mason Rudolph.

[955876]

A bust? Who cares man. He went to Pitt and we didn’t let him escape like we did Dan Marino.

Phew.

[Steelperch]

Kenny, at his best, can be a league average QB. That's perfectly fine, but not when you're a first round pick at a team that is trying to replace a HOF QB in Big Ben.

From what we've seen in 25 games, it looks like his ceiling is well below league average.

His ceiling looks like Mason Rudolph.

League average QB rating is 92. Kenny is at 80
League average TD passes is at 15, Kenny is at 6
League average completion % is at 65.7 Kenny is at 62.0
League average YPA is at 7.0 Kenny is at 6.4
League average passing yards per game is at 240 Kenny is at 172

League average QB performance would be roughly this years version of Trevor Lawrence or Jordan Love. Kenny hasn’t shown anything to make you believe he’ll ever be average let along ever get to above average.

[Steeldrama]

I believe it was Tony Romo who pointed out Sam Darnold seeing ghosts during a long ago broadcast when Darnold was still a Jet.

Kenny has been seeing those same ghosts since college
Doesn’t make him a bust
Makes him a DND

Darnold is Kenny’s ceiling
Journeyman backup given 2nd and 3rd chances due to draft pedigree

[SteelerDayTrader]

For some here we’d have to acquire an entire Pro Bowl roster and coaching staff, then give Kenny another 3 years to figure it out. If he wasn’t a top 20 QB by that time, they’d just say Canada ruined him and he was actually a great QB the Steelers screwed over.

[Deebo]

Kenny, at his best, can be a league average QB. That's perfectly fine, but not when you're a first round pick at a team that is trying to replace a HOF QB in Big Ben.

From what we've seen in 25 games, it looks like his ceiling is well below league average.

His ceiling looks like Mason Rudolph.

Do I remember correctly that the Steelers had a R1 Grade on Rudolph?

[Orangesteel]

Kenny, at his best, can be a league average QB. That's perfectly fine, but not when you're a first round pick at a team that is trying to replace a HOF QB in Big Ben.

From what we've seen in 25 games, it looks like his ceiling is well below league average.

His ceiling looks like Mason Rudolph.

Do I remember correctly that the Steelers had a R1 Grade on Rudolph?

Correct. Or so Colbert said.

[Professor Half Wit]

Kenny, at his best, can be a league average QB. That's perfectly fine, but not when you're a first round pick at a team that is trying to replace a HOF QB in Big Ben.

From what we've seen in 25 games, it looks like his ceiling is well below league average.

His ceiling looks like Mason Rudolph.

Do I remember correctly that the Steelers had a R1 Grade on Rudolph?

Did Colbert develop a paint huffing habit toward the end?

[Louis Lipps Service]

You can call him whatever you want. My opinion of him is that he’s a bust given draft position. If he was taken in the 4th round or higher than who cares. First round he’s under the microscope. And it’s not (for me at least) about being right or wrong. It’s knowing what they knew about him out of college and what his tendencies and weaknesses were, why did a guy on his way out the door reach for Kenny as if the first round grade was legitimate? I agree with fractal in the other thread; the trend in the league right now is to overdraft QBs and in a year (almost historic year) where the QB class was so bad, Colbert went into warp speed overdraft mode with his assessment on Kenny.

It has been said that if you flip Pickens and Pickett it isn’t so bad; Pickens from what we seen is a legitimate first round talent. But I still think Kenny is a 4th a 5th round guy AND the error is compounded when they decided to bring back Mitch for like $8M a year and Mason for who the hell knows why.

I find it interesting that you're so willing to imply that Pickens has already proven would have been worth a 1st round pick despite only averaging 3 catches and 53 yards per game over a two year span.

That doesn't seem like first round production, to me.

And to be clear, as I am with Kenny, I'm more than willing to give George the benefit of the doubt and the lattitude to prove it after Canada was fired.

It just seems pretty obvious to me that you aren't giving both of those same players the same and equal benefit.

[955876]

As bad as Canada was/is at being an OC, KP is missing plays that are there to be had and that has zero to do with Canada.

Why did he miss Austin for a walk in TD??

Purdy makes that elementary level throw and the Pickett defenders would say oh it’s his cast. He’s always throwing to wide open receivers…

Well,,, KP keeps missing or flat out refusing to throw to wide ass open receivers.

The play where two defenders came through the line untouched,,,, Muth was WIDE ASS OPEN over the middle.

If that was Purdy and Kittle they’d have yet another big ass completion that picked up chunk yards.

Not PR Pickett though.

Two throws a QB from the freshman squad could make.

Not long passes so even the most mediocre of arms can connect there. No tight windows to thread the ball through. Wide ass open receivers.

Purdy has great players around him but he still needs to process and hit the open guy.

KP fails miserably at doing so.

Time and time and time and time again.

He’s career back-up material at this point or meager game manager who will limit mistakes (at the cost of having few big plays) on his way to 8-8-1 and either no playoffs or a stomping.

He isn’t the guy.

[beerbrother]

From what we've seen in 25 games, it looks like his ceiling is well below league average.

His ceiling looks like Mason Rudolph.

Do I remember correctly that the Steelers had a R1 Grade on Rudolph?

Did Colbert develop a paint huffing habit toward the end?

2018 - Terrell Edmunds (1st round) - Mason Rudolph (1st round grade, taken in 3rd)
2019 - Devin Bush (1st round, traded up)
2020 - Chase Claypool (2nd round, 1st went for Minkah, Poo later to Bears for a 2nd)
2021 - Najee Harris (1st round)
2022 - Kenny Pickett (1st round)

Results of a "Paint Huffing Habit".

[Orangesteel]

You can call him whatever you want. My opinion of him is that he’s a bust given draft position. If he was taken in the 4th round or higher than who cares. First round he’s under the microscope. And it’s not (for me at least) about being right or wrong. It’s knowing what they knew about him out of college and what his tendencies and weaknesses were, why did a guy on his way out the door reach for Kenny as if the first round grade was legitimate? I agree with fractal in the other thread; the trend in the league right now is to overdraft QBs and in a year (almost historic year) where the QB class was so bad, Colbert went into warp speed overdraft mode with his assessment on Kenny.

It has been said that if you flip Pickens and Pickett it isn’t so bad; Pickens from what we seen is a legitimate first round talent. But I still think Kenny is a 4th a 5th round guy AND the error is compounded when they decided to bring back Mitch for like $8M a year and Mason for who the hell knows why.

I find it interesting that you're so willing to imply that Pickens has already proven would have been worth a 1st round pick despite only averaging 3 catches and 53 yards per game over a two year span.

That doesn't seem like first round production, to me.

And to be clear, as I am with Kenny, I'm more than willing to give George the benefit of the doubt and the lattitude to prove it after Canada was fired.

It just seems pretty obvious to me that you aren't giving both of those same players the same and equal benefit.

Pickens has made some insane plays already at a position that his coveted in the modern NFL (unless it’s the Steelers offense). That wasn’t a stellar WR class but there are some names in there that look very good, Pickens included. Pickens in a legit offense would be wildly dangerous. Here is a re-draft; take it for what is worth. Also, flipping the Pickens and Pickett selections provides a bit of copium for what Colbert actually did that day while huffing paint, but it hardly satisfies the first round grade they had on Kenny:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/06/08/2022 ... illiams-wr

[Mick]

You can argue he’s shown to be a bust when someone outplays him in the same system.

You should operate as if he’s probably a bust if he doesn’t prove to be The Guy in year 2.

[StillerInCT]

Sadly, Pickett's career in Pittsburgh was over before it started. Some fault of his own, but mostly because he was over-drafted and we don't develop talent here. I'd say the same for Pickens except he's an outlier talent so he can get by on that alone at that position. Where Pickens will feel it is on contract 2 where he'll show mediocre stats (no fault of his own) and teams will use that to sign him at a discount.

[955876]

You can argue he’s shown to be a bust when someone outplays him in the same system.

Biscuit was taken 2nd overall and has already been determined to be a bust.

Bibberty is a JAG.

Those two also sucking in this system doesn’t mean KP isn’t bust. It just means we have three back-up level jags with none worthy of being the franchise guy.

He took a sack on a play yesterday where Muth was wide ass open over the middle.

He missed a TD to a wide ass open Austin who would have walked into the EZ and instead scrambled and got himself hurt.

He was his own problem yesterday, not the system.

Unless of course he’s being told to not read the field at all.

But if that’s the case that just reinforces he is a huge bust.