Why can't Heath be our red zone weapon?

[Legacy User]

What makes Heath and Gronkowski so different?

Gronk is a little taller, a little heavier and a little faster. Heath was a 1st rounder. Gronk was a 2nd rounder, mainly due to injury concern.

Heath is in his 10th season and has 41 career TDs. Gronk is in his 5th season and has 45 TDs.

Both have had good QB play their entire careers...so why is Gronk so effective in the red zone and Heath is not?

[Stillchest]

Slow as fuck.

Has a 14" vertical.

[Legacy User]

Slow as fuck.

Has a 14" vertical.

He's slow now, but he had a 4.8 40 when drafted. Gronk had a 4.65 40. Plus, your 40 yard time doesn't matter as much in the redzone. Not sure about the vertical...I imagine Heath's wasn't that much worse than Gronk's. Gronk has been way more injured than Heath...he likely can't get far off the ground either.

[Legacy User]

Gronk besides being more athletic...has very long arms and huge hands too...

[Stosh-67]

Gronk besides being more athletic...has very long arms and huge hands too...

Right there.
Gronk has arms like a gorilla and hands that make the ball look like a pee wee football.

[Stosh-67]

Not to mention the pats pass the ball down the seem as often as they spread it to both sides of the field

[Legacy User]

Gronk, really all athletes for that matter are like a whiffle ball. Pretty great when new. Okay when a piece of tape is needed. After a few more pieces of tape not good at all and dumped. Heath out lasted Gronk.

[Legacy User]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

[StillerInCT]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

I agree with this but with a different take......I can't remember the last time he ran one in to the End Zone. The threat has seemed to fade quite a bit.

[Legacy User]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

I agree with this but with a different take......I can't remember the last time he ran one in to the End Zone. The threat has seemed to fade quite a bit.

I agree even though he's less than fleet of foot these days. Also with that run game it will keep LB's in which will take away the QB draw

[Stosh-67]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

I agree with this but with a different take......I can't remember the last time he ran one in to the End Zone. The threat has seemed to fade quite a bit.

I agree even though he's less than fleet of foot these days. Also with that run game it will keep LB's in which will take away the QB draw

Absoulutley ...........
I also agree that play calling is a big part of the RedZone offense. Not having Ben as a threat certainly makes it easy for the defense.
Working it into the game plan and play calling is an entirely different story.
Our Red Zone passing plays have become bang bang....one look...one shot plays......usually into small windows.
How bout those Royals.
Rolling Ben right running towards the sideline with a TE or RB option running parallel with him along the goalline........and a back of the endzone option.....with the threat of Ben taking it in....provides multiple options. Once defenders commit...the three options will be there.
Bootleg left.......?
Yes, Ben is not fleet of foot......and is not as quick as he once was.............neither is Peyton Manning.
Yet we will see Manning roll out and boot leg into the endzone..........which he has done already this year. He is 38.
Ben is no slower or less fleet of foot as Manning.
Not incorporating the threat or these type of plays into the goal line offense......will have eleven men defending 3, 4 or 5 options in such a small space..... = FG

[Legacy User]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

Me too but since he sucks now, it's stupid to not want to get him some EZ mismatch weapons. Since you're not a moron, I'll just go ahead and count as on board. You keep posting height while the rest of us keep posting mismatch weapon. Is Gronk 7 feet tall. No. Is he a TD machine? Yes.

Ben sucks. We need to elevate him with other premier talent.

[Steelcody7]

What makes Heath and Gronkowski so different?

Gronk is a little taller, a little heavier and a little faster. Heath was a 1st rounder. Gronk was a 2nd rounder, mainly due to injury concern.

Heath is in his 10th season and has 41 career TDs. Gronk is in his 5th season and has 45 TDs.

Both have had good QB play their entire careers...so why is Gronk so effective in the red zone and Heath is not?

Every post you make makes me wonder if you are a troll Browns or Bengals fan.

Heath NEVER had the skill set of Gronkowski.

It's like comparing a new car with a lemon. Heath was a very good TE. He couldn't dominate like Gronkowski.

[Legacy User]

What makes Heath and Gronkowski so different?

Gronk is a little taller, a little heavier and a little faster. Heath was a 1st rounder. Gronk was a 2nd rounder, mainly due to injury concern.

Heath is in his 10th season and has 41 career TDs. Gronk is in his 5th season and has 45 TDs.

Both have had good QB play their entire careers...so why is Gronk so effective in the red zone and Heath is not?

Every post you make makes me wonder if you are a troll Browns or Bengals fan.

Heath NEVER had the skill set of Gronkowski.

It's like comparing a new car with a lemon. Heath was a very good TE. He couldn't dominate like Gronkowski.

I don't buy this. There is a reason Heath was the 30th overall pick and Gronk was the 42nd overall pick. Gronk has had WAY more injuries than Heath despite being older...everyone knows this. It's not a matter of "oh Heath used to be good but he's been hurt so much that he can't play like Gronk now". Why couldn't Heath have dominated in his earlier years like Gronk? They aren't that physically dissimilar...otherwise why was Heath picked almost half a round earlier? It's not like Gronk went to someone DIII school no one ever heard of either...

[Legacy User]

I agree with this but with a different take......I can't remember the last time he ran one in to the End Zone. The threat has seemed to fade quite a bit.

I agree even though he's less than fleet of foot these days. Also with that run game it will keep LB's in which will take away the QB draw

Absoulutley ...........
I also agree that play calling is a big part of the RedZone offense. Not having Ben as a threat certainly makes it easy for the defense.
Working it into the game plan and play calling is an entirely different story.
Our Red Zone passing plays have become bang bang....one look...one shot plays......usually into small windows.
How bout those Royals.
Rolling Ben right running towards the sideline with a TE or RB option running parallel with him along the goalline........and a back of the endzone option.....with the threat of Ben taking it in....provides multiple options. Once defenders commit...the three options will be there.
Bootleg left.......?
Yes, Ben is not fleet of foot......and is not as quick as he once was.............neither is Peyton Manning.
Yet we will see Manning roll out and boot leg into the endzone..........which he has done already this year. He is 38.
Ben is no slower or less fleet of foot as Manning.
Not incorporating the threat or these type of plays into the goal line offense......will have eleven men defending 3, 4 or 5 options in such a small space..... = FG

buh buh buh buh Ben might be hit. That's a Bozo no no.

[Steelcody7]

What makes Heath and Gronkowski so different?

Gronk is a little taller, a little heavier and a little faster. Heath was a 1st rounder. Gronk was a 2nd rounder, mainly due to injury concern.

Heath is in his 10th season and has 41 career TDs. Gronk is in his 5th season and has 45 TDs.

Both have had good QB play their entire careers...so why is Gronk so effective in the red zone and Heath is not?

Every post you make makes me wonder if you are a troll Browns or Bengals fan.

Heath NEVER had the skill set of Gronkowski.

It's like comparing a new car with a lemon. Heath was a very good TE. He couldn't dominate like Gronkowski.

I don't buy this. There is a reason Heath was the 30th overall pick and Gronk was the 42nd overall pick. Gronk has had WAY more injuries than Heath despite being older...everyone knows this. It's not a matter of "oh Heath used to be good but he's been hurt so much that he can't play like Gronk now". Why couldn't Heath have dominated in his earlier years like Gronk? They aren't that physically dissimilar...otherwise why was Heath picked almost half a round earlier? It's not like Gronk went to someone DIII school no one ever heard of either...

Heath doesn't have the athleticism.

He wasn't slow when younger, but Gronkowski is much more explosive.

That's what it comes down to.

[Legacy User]

And everyone who claims Gronk is just more physically dominant I offer you the evidence:

Gronk:

Pre-draft measurables
Ht Wt Arm length Hand size 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP
6 ft 6¼ in 258 lb 34¼ in 10¾ in 4.68 s 1.58 s 2.68 s 4.47 s 7.18 s 33½ in 9 ft 11 in 23 reps

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=TE


Heath:

6 ft 5 in, 256 lbs, 33 in, 10 in, 32 in vert, 4.87 40

http://www.strongright.com/heath-miller ... -29935.php

So basically, Gronk is 1" taller, almost the same weight, has 1" longer arms and .75" bigger hands and is .2 faster in the 40. He's much faster, but in the red zone your 40 time doesn't matter as much as your 10 yard split. Explosiveness is generally measured by the VJ...Heath and Gronk are almost the same, so there goes that argument.

Bottom line: Gronk's a little bigger and little more athletic, that's not enough to explain why he has more TDs in 5 years than Heath does 10.

http://www.strongright.com/heath-miller ... -29935.php

[Legacy User]

Heath was a red zone weapon in 2012. He was on fire. Then his knee got shredded. The current Heath is not even close to the 2012 Heath.

[jeemie]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

Completely untrue.

1) In 2004, they had a strong running game, good OL, and a big target in Plaxico Burress. The RZ% was low, but the Steelers were 11th in scoring. Not bad for a rookie limited to half the field in his reads.

2) In 2005, he had a strong running game, good OL, and good RZ targets in Hines Ward and Heath Miller. Plus a very good strategy from OC Ken Whisenhunt. The Steelers were 4th in RZ% that year, 9th in scoring.

2) 2006 was an abberation because he threw himself threw a car windshield. Steelers were still 12th in scoring.

3) But in 2007 the same conditions existed and Ben threw 32 TD passes- the Steelers were 7th in RZ%, 9th in scoring.

4) 2008- line was awful. Ben had an injured shoulder. They scored when they needed to.

5) 2009- back to 12th in scoring

6) 2010- 12th in scoring despite a quarter of the season being given over to Charlie Batch/Dennis Dixon

7) 2011- 21st in scoring- Ben hobbled the last quarter of the season

8) 2012-2014: 22nd, 16th, and 24th in scoring under Haley.

So under Whisenhunt/Arians, the Steelers finished 12th or better in scoring for 6 of 8 seasons- this with an offense geared to shorten the game and rest the defense.

Haley's offenses have (so far) never gone above 16th.

[Legacy User]

I'm partial to Ben Roethlisberger being RZ weapon in controlling playcall, formation, box count, tempo, and protection. Rhythm, timing, and flow.

Everyone used to think the answer to all problems was a fullback until they got one and nothing changed. When they get a 7 ft WR nothing still is going to change

Completely untrue.

1) In 2004, they had a strong running game, good OL, and a big target in Plaxico Burress. The RZ% was low, but the Steelers were 11th in scoring. Not bad for a rookie limited to half the field in his reads.

2) In 2005, he had a strong running game, good OL, and good RZ targets in Hines Ward and Heath Miller. Plus a very good strategy from OC Ken Whisenhunt. The Steelers were 4th in RZ% that year, 9th in scoring.

2) 2006 was an abberation because he threw himself threw a car windshield. Steelers were still 12th in scoring.

3) But in 2007 the same conditions existed and Ben threw 32 TD passes- the Steelers were 7th in RZ%, 9th in scoring.

4) 2008- line was awful. Ben had an injured shoulder. They scored when they needed to.

5) 2009- back to 12th in scoring

6) 2010- 12th in scoring despite a quarter of the season being given over to Charlie Batch/Dennis Dixon

7) 2011- 21st in scoring- Ben hobbled the last quarter of the season

8) 2012-2014: 22nd, 16th, and 24th in scoring under Haley.

So under Whisenhunt/Arians, the Steelers finished 12th or better in scoring for 6 of 8 seasons- this with an offense geared to shorten the game and rest the defense.

Haley's offenses have (so far) never gone above 16th.

Isn't IC just going to rejoin that Ben didn't suck then? But he sucks now? And that explains the difference? Pretty sure that's how this is going to go.

[Steelafan77]

The difference between Gronk and Heath is how they are utilized in thier offense. Gronk is hardly if ever held in to block because the Patriot OLine is light years ahead in talent of any Steelers OLine plus it just what they do. The Patriots offensive concept from day 1 with Gronk was get him the ball. Now, does thqat sound like the offensive concept Heath is fortunate to have? I didn't believe so.

[Legacy User]

The difference between Gronk and Heath is how they are utilized in thier offense. Gronk is hardly if ever held in to block because the Patriot OLine is light years ahead in talent of any Steelers OLine plus it just what they do. The Patriots offensive concept from day 1 with Gronk was get him the ball. Now, does thqat sound like the offensive concept Heath is fortunate to have? I didn't believe so.

Holy shit. Thank you. Can't believe it took this long for someone to suggest that perhaps playcalling and scheme was the reason.

[Legacy User]

And everyone who claims Gronk is just more physically dominant I offer you the evidence:

Gronk:

Pre-draft measurables
Ht Wt Arm length Hand size 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP
6 ft 6¼ in 258 lb 34¼ in 10¾ in 4.68 s 1.58 s 2.68 s 4.47 s 7.18 s 33½ in 9 ft 11 in 23 reps

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=TE


Heath:

6 ft 5 in, 256 lbs, 33 in, 10 in, 32 in vert, 4.87 40

http://www.strongright.com/heath-miller ... -29935.php

So basically, Gronk is 1" taller, almost the same weight, has 1" longer arms and .75" bigger hands and is .2 faster in the 40. He's much faster, but in the red zone your 40 time doesn't matter as much as your 10 yard split. Explosiveness is generally measured by the VJ...Heath and Gronk are almost the same, so there goes that argument.

Bottom line: Gronk's a little bigger and little more athletic, that's not enough to explain why he has more TDs in 5 years than Heath does 10.

http://www.strongright.com/heath-miller ... -29935.php

You're quoting measurables from almost a decade ago (and a major knee injury ago) for Heath Miller.

[Legacy User]

You're quoting measurables from almost a decade ago (and a major knee injury ago) for Heath Miller.

It was a comparison of pre-draft measurables of both players. If you can think of a fairer way to compare I'm all ears. As I've stated, Heath is a picture of health compared to Gronk. Gronk has had 3 major surgeries in just the last 2 years and he had plenty of injuries in college (the main reason he wasn't a 1st round pick). As far as I can remember Heath has had 1 major injury in his entire NFL career.

[Steelafan77]

I think that was the point Pierogi. The measurables aren't a factor so much as offensive concept is.

[Legacy User]

You're quoting measurables from almost a decade ago (and a major knee injury ago) for Heath Miller.

It was a comparison of pre-draft measurables of both players. If you can think of a fairer way to compare I'm all ears. As I've stated, Heath is a picture of health compared to Gronk. Gronk has had 3 major surgeries in just the last 2 years and he had plenty of injuries in college (the main reason he wasn't a 1st round pick). As far as I can remember Heath has had 1 major injury in his entire NFL career.

Where are Heath's change-of-direction and explosiveness measurables?

Heath's almost 32. Gronkowski is 25. Comparing pre-draft measurables for a guy in the back stretch of his career to a guy entering his prime is pointless.

They don't use Heath like Gronkowski because Heath's not like Gronkowski.

[Legacy User]

You're quoting measurables from almost a decade ago (and a major knee injury ago) for Heath Miller.

It was a comparison of pre-draft measurables of both players. If you can think of a fairer way to compare I'm all ears. As I've stated, Heath is a picture of health compared to Gronk. Gronk has had 3 major surgeries in just the last 2 years and he had plenty of injuries in college (the main reason he wasn't a 1st round pick). As far as I can remember Heath has had 1 major injury in his entire NFL career.

Where are Heath's change-of-direction and explosiveness measurables?

Heath's almost 32. Gronkowski is 25. Comparing pre-draft measurables for a guy in the back stretch of his career to a guy entering his prime is pointless.

They don't use Heath like Gronkowski because Heath's not like Gronkowski.

All I could find is vertical jump...33" to 32" is not a big difference. You are welcome to post other measurables if you can find them. Yes, I'm aware that Heath is older...but even when Heath was Gronk's age he wasn't putting up nearly the same redzone production (and this was years before the knee injury).

Heath's first 4 years = 21 TDs
Gronk's first 4 years = 42 TDs

Gronk literally doubled Heath's TD production in their first 4 years. Heath's health and age are not a factor in this comparison.

[Legacy User]

You're quoting measurables from almost a decade ago (and a major knee injury ago) for Heath Miller.

It was a comparison of pre-draft measurables of both players. If you can think of a fairer way to compare I'm all ears. As I've stated, Heath is a picture of health compared to Gronk. Gronk has had 3 major surgeries in just the last 2 years and he had plenty of injuries in college (the main reason he wasn't a 1st round pick). As far as I can remember Heath has had 1 major injury in his entire NFL career.

Where are Heath's change-of-direction and explosiveness measurables?

Heath's almost 32. Gronkowski is 25. Comparing pre-draft measurables for a guy in the back stretch of his career to a guy entering his prime is pointless.

They don't use Heath like Gronkowski because Heath's not like Gronkowski.

No? What the hell was 2012? How quickly we forget!

Heath is no Gronk, but Heath obviously knew what he was doing in 2012 when Haley was using him to light defenses up.

[Legacy User]

All I could find is vertical jump...33" to 32" is not a big difference. You are welcome to post other measurables if you can find them. Yes, I'm aware that Heath is older...but even when Heath was Gronk's age he wasn't putting up nearly the same redzone production (and this was years before the knee injury).

Heath's first 4 years = 21 TDs
Gronk's first 4 years = 42 TDs

Gronk literally doubled Heath's TD production in their first 4 years. Heath's health and age are not a factor in this comparison.

You could always call up Bill Cowher, Ken Whisenhunt and Bruce Arians to ask about those four years.

"Why can't Heath be our red zone weapon?" doesn't seem to imply you're worried about his first four years in the league.

No? What the hell was 2012? How quickly we forget!

Heath is no Gronk, but Heath obviously knew what he was doing in 2012 when Haley was using him to light defenses up.

Scheme and pre-knee-blowout Heath.

[Legacy User]

All I could find is vertical jump...33" to 32" is not a big difference. You are welcome to post other measurables if you can find them. Yes, I'm aware that Heath is older...but even when Heath was Gronk's age he wasn't putting up nearly the same redzone production (and this was years before the knee injury).

Heath's first 4 years = 21 TDs
Gronk's first 4 years = 42 TDs

Gronk literally doubled Heath's TD production in their first 4 years. Heath's health and age are not a factor in this comparison.

You could always call up Bill Cowher, Ken Whisenhunt and Bruce Arians to ask about those four years.

"Why can't Heath be our red zone weapon?" doesn't seem to imply you're worried about his first four years in the league.

No? What the hell was 2012? How quickly we forget!

Heath is no Gronk, but Heath obviously knew what he was doing in 2012 when Haley was using him to light defenses up.

Scheme and pre-knee-blowout Heath.

Obviously. Is Gronk not schemed?

Miller is not going to be the answer moving forward.