OT: John Madden calls out King Roger

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OT: John Madden calls out King Roger

Post by Legacy User » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:19 pm

In a round table discussion about the Heads Up Football program Madden had this to say:

“I’m a firm believer that there’s no way that a six-year-old should have a helmet on and learn a tackling drill,” Madden said. “There’s no way. Or a seven-year-old or an eight-year-old. They’re not ready for it. Take the helmets off kids. . . . Start at six years old, seven years old, eight years old, nine years old. They don’t need a helmet. They can play flag football. And with flag football you can get all the techniques. Why do we have to start with a six-year-old who was just potty trained a year ago and put a helmet on him and tackle? . . . We’ll eventually get to tackling.”


I'm with Madden here. Let kids play flag football, learn the game and put on the pads in Jr. High. If you've seen the ridiculous show Friday Night Tykes you know there are some stupid MoFo's out there not only coaching youth football but, parents pushing their young kids. Discuss...............

Apologies, this link is from the article on Pansy Lawyer Talk.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/05/john-madden-doesnt-believe-in-the-heads-up-football-program/



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Post by Steelafan77 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:44 pm

Madden is the second one of any "decent" credentials and media exposure in the last week to call out goofwell. Keith Olbermann was the first. Olbermann's rant calling for goofwell's resignation from NFL Commissioner. Presented to you by USA Today Sports. I found it entertaining in the least. :)

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/keith-o ... ell-resign

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Post by Legacy User » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:57 pm

:roll:

http://www.traumaticbraininjury.net/move-over-football-cycling-is-the-biggest-cause-of-sports-related-tbi/

I suppose if you want to ban the lil darling from youth football you shouldn't let him ride a bike either. Children are savages. By the time I was 8 every pick up game was full on tackle with plenty of injuries...

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Post by R_S » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:03 pm

when I was a kid we played flag football until junior high. 7th grade was the first experience with helmets and pads. Though, like zivco says, we played tackle football all day long in the backyard. I tend to agree with Madden. There is no point in a kids that young with full pads on. I could agree with 6th grade. Maybe 5th. NO younger.

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Post by Legacy User » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:39 pm

tackle football w/no helmet and pads is a lot of fun, but it's a lot different from tackle WITH pads and helmet.

no one leads with the head, and blocking is an entirely different animal. no one is trying to "blow up" a guy with their helmet coming across the middle, etc.

tackle football without equipment is definitely not as harmful to your health as football WITH Pads --
even though that sounds totally contradictory to those who have never played.... (they keep saying "aren't the pads supposed to PROTECT you??")

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Post by Legacy User » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:43 pm

steel wrote:no one leads with the head, and blocking is an entirely different animal. no one is trying to "blow up" a guy with their helmet coming across the middle, etc.

tackle football without equipment is definitely not as harmful to your health as football WITH Pads --
even though that sounds totally contradictory to those who have never played.... (they keep saying "aren't the pads supposed to PROTECT you??")


Completely contrary to my experience. I started playing midgets when I was 8...so did many of my friends...some who didn't learned quick, others went back to the atari.

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Post by Steelafan77 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:33 pm

Remember running around engaging in super short games at half time during NFL games too as a kid (6,7,8 years old etc...) or throwing the ball around playing smear the queer (Rugby style) all the time. Never wore helmets. We'd try to emulate pro baseball too. Throwing over hand as fast and as hard as we could never wore hard hat. Riding bikes, skate boards, skates, roller blades (later in the 80's) never wearing helmets. We also played flag football (in middle school. even had cheerleaders) until 9th grade high school football. Then the helmet & pads went on. Man when I think about the girls in those short shorts and those cropped halter tops in the early 80's :D goofwell needs to be rousted for other things but this certainly contributes to the disdain fans have towards him. Thanks John "Baby Huey" Madden.

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:51 am

Zivco wrote:
steel wrote:no one leads with the head, and blocking is an entirely different animal. no one is trying to "blow up" a guy with their helmet coming across the middle, etc.

tackle football without equipment is definitely not as harmful to your health as football WITH Pads --
even though that sounds totally contradictory to those who have never played.... (they keep saying "aren't the pads supposed to PROTECT you??")


Completely contrary to my experience. I started playing midgets when I was 8...so did many of my friends...some who didn't learned quick, others went back to the atari.


what is contrary?

Did you actually lead with your head playing tackle without pads? Kids didn't last doing that

as soon as kids put on a helmet, it becomes a weapon --

same as it was 45 years ago, and same today

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:10 am

steel wrote:Did you actually lead with your head playing tackle without pads? Kids didn't last doing that

as soon as kids put on a helmet, it becomes a weapon --

same as it was 45 years ago, and same today


We had a rivalry going that regularly resulted in black eyes and bloody noses...a few occasions of broken bones...noses, rib, arm.

This is becoming such a nation of pussies- http://www.clearedtoplay.org/concussion-information/concussions-by-the-numbers

Concussion rates more than doubled among students age 8-19 participating in sports like basketball, soccer and football between 1997-2007, even as participation in those sports declined.


Think all the publicity is a factor? :lol:

Female high school soccer athletes suffer almost 40% more concussions than males (29,000 annually)
Female high school basketball players suffer 240% more concussions than males (13,000).
400,000 brain injuries (concussions) occurred in high school athletics during the 2008-09 school year.


Do you think they have a fucking clue how to accurately diagnosis concussions? :lol:

I really can't believe how deep of a trend towards pussy we have been in the past 15 years or so....

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:38 am

Quote:
Female high school soccer athletes suffer almost 40% more concussions than males (29,000 annually)
Female high school basketball players suffer 240% more concussions than males (13,000).
400,000 brain injuries (concussions) occurred in high school athletics during the 2008-09 school year.


Do you think they have a fucking clue how to accurately diagnosis concussions? :lol:

I really can't believe how deep of a trend towards pussy we have been in the past 15 years or so....


There is a part of me that agrees with... "Let the kids play".

But as for the females and concussions thing in soccer- I coached HS women's soccer and watched two of the gals go down with head trauma over a course of a season -concussion, stitches, the whole shit - because of other players' piss poor heading technique. Coming up for a ball with the crown of your head, and whacking a gal who was using proper technique in the face. In other words, my team and my players payed the price because women's teams (at that time, anyway) attracted the "B-list" coaches who couldn't teach their players how to play worth a shit.

I would not be surprised if something similar happens in b-ball.

Probably has NOTHING to do with concussion diagnosis, and everything to do with rural HS trying to satisfy Title IX by field women's soccer and using the bottom of the barrel in terms of coaches to make that happen.

Question for you: How many more women's HS soccer programs are there than men's?

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:06 am

Steeler Jones wrote:Question for you: How many more women's HS soccer programs are there than men's?


We have very different ideas on head injuries. I don't think 99% of high school football starters would ever report any sort of injury from a soccer ball. It's entirely possible some people play through concussions...but I also think concussions are ridiculously over diagnosed. That's what the other part of the quote was about.

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:30 pm

Zivco wrote:
Steeler Jones wrote:Question for you: How many more women's HS soccer programs are there than men's?


We have very different ideas on head injuries. I don't think 99% of high school football starters would ever report any sort of injury from a soccer ball. It's entirely possible some people play through concussions...but I also think concussions are ridiculously over diagnosed. That's what the other part of the quote was about.


What makes you think concussions "caused by soccer balls" are what give women concussions? I just gave you tangible examples of concussions that were most definitely not of that variety.

I've coached women and men, and what I've found, for the most part, is that women have a much HIGHER pain tolerance than men and are much LESS likely to pull themselves from a game (or any other team activity) over injuries. My personal experience (I've also coached both sexes at rugby - collegiate level) is that standing concussions aren't tremendously common, and if you catch someone playing through being dazed you ought to pull them. This isn't "new" information, this is 20 years ago.

You may be right about concussions being "overdiagnosed", but your so-called examples in support of that statement are piss poor.

What you say about letting people play, letting people inflict a little brain damage on themselves and take risks- I think that's absolutely true. Just leave it at that and you're on firm ground.

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:46 pm

Steeler Jones wrote:'ve coached women and men, and what I've found, for the most part, is that women have a much HIGHER pain tolerance than men and are much LESS likely to pull themselves from a game (or any other team activity) over injuries.


:lol: http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/23/men-vs-women-on-pain-who-hurts-more/

Steeler Jones wrote:You may be right about concussions being "overdiagnosed", but your so-called examples in support of that statement are piss poor.


Weren't my examples...if you get injured playing soccer or basketball your a pussy. Muscle pulls aside, that simple.

More....http://www.boston.com/dailydose/2012/10/12/new-study-highlights-flaws-concussion-diagnosis/ZyuFEX1LXhjRfZ3j7NDjPL/story.html

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Post by Nick79 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:46 pm

steel wrote:tackle football w/no helmet and pads is a lot of fun, but it's a lot different from tackle WITH pads and helmet.

no one leads with the head, and blocking is an entirely different animal. no one is trying to "blow up" a guy with their helmet coming across the middle, etc.

tackle football without equipment is definitely not as harmful to your health as football WITH Pads --
even though that sounds totally contradictory to those who have never played.... (they keep saying "aren't the pads supposed to PROTECT you??")


I agree, to make the game safer, they should probably take off the shoulder pads and maybe go to soft, old style leather helmets, like wrestling head gear with no face masks, The tackling and blocking would more like wrestling, but so what everyone would eventually adjust.

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Post by Nick79 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:52 pm

Zivco wrote::roll:

http://www.traumaticbraininjury.net/move-over-football-cycling-is-the-biggest-cause-of-sports-related-tbi/

I suppose if you want to ban the lil darling from youth football you shouldn't let him ride a bike either. Children are savages. By the time I was 8 every pick up game was full on tackle with plenty of injuries...


Me too, at that age, we had a tackle football game in the park every day of the week from August until Christmas pretty much. But you don't see that anymore, anywhere. If I see a group of kids randomly playing any sport, any pick up game, other than maybe basketball, I am shocked!

The coolest thing I see now is at this park near me, that is close to a Muslim school, there are all these immigrant Muslim kids, who pull NFL jerseys over their Taliban robes and play tackle football.

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Post by zeke5123 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:18 pm

Zivco wrote:
Steeler Jones wrote:'ve coached women and men, and what I've found, for the most part, is that women have a much HIGHER pain tolerance than men and are much LESS likely to pull themselves from a game (or any other team activity) over injuries.


:lol: http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/23/men-vs-women-on-pain-who-hurts-more/

Steeler Jones wrote:You may be right about concussions being "overdiagnosed", but your so-called examples in support of that statement are piss poor.


Weren't my examples...if you get injured playing soccer or basketball your a pussy. Muscle pulls aside, that simple.

More....http://www.boston.com/dailydose/2012/10/12/new-study-highlights-flaws-concussion-diagnosis/ZyuFEX1LXhjRfZ3j7NDjPL/story.html


Yeah, that Paul George is a giant pussy...

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:42 pm

I don't think there is a need for any further alteration of the sport. My hatred for kunt sports journalists grows everyday. I would guess over half of the sissies that appear on Around the Horn or the Sports Reporter types of shows secretly would like to end football...hell throw in half the kunts doing Sports Center. If you took a poll of PHD's ...any fucking journalism major for that matter I would bet 90% of them would gas football right now.

We are still hearing this CTE bullshit, yet- http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2014/01/23/CTE-Junk-Science

Highlights-

If you want journalists to mock you, say aloud that chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) has “an unknown incidence” among football players and that “a cause and effect relationship has not yet been demonstrated between CTE and concussions or exposure to contact sports.” That’s just what many of the sports world’s best brain scientists did in a consensus statement at the 4th International Conference on Concussion in Sport held in Zurich in November 2012.

The few dozen autopsies conducted with a selection bias on brains presupposed to be damaged doesn’t amount to a randomized, unbiased study, the likes of which has been done to prove, for instance, the causal link between smoking and cancer. No such CTE study exists, despite the Boston Globe editorializing in September, “The link between football and CTE is about as clear as that of smoking and lung cancer in the ’60s.” But by 1960, the world was four years removed from the British Doctors Study that demonstrated the relationship of smoking to lung cancer. As the Randolph-Guskiewicz-Karantzoulis study shows, researchers are nowhere near the stage of scientifically determining the causes of CTE.

Perhaps the most troubling issue spotlighted regards the Center for the Study of Chronic Encephalopathy, whose researchers, in contrast to other neuroscientists, have remarkably found CTE in nearly every brain from deceased football players that they have inspected. The Boston University group’s threshold for what constitutes CTE includes the presence of neurofibrillary tangles (NFTs), which appear in the brains of almost every older American. The trio writes that “the only requirement for satisfying a neuropathological diagnosis of CTE was the presence of tau-positive astrocytic tangles and NFTs. Because NFTs are present in a variety of neurodegenerative disorders and are also evident in most normal older individuals, this classification criterion deserves further scrutiny.” The article cites a study that found NFTs in 97 percent of older people.

Junk science has consequences—$765 million of them for the NFL, quack cure-alls in health food stores, and playing fields resembling ghost towns. In a Massachusetts courtroom, a high school football player charged with murdering his girlfriend even employed CTE as a defense in his trial earlier this year. The court rejected his not-guilty-by-reason-of-football defense. But journalists writing about another Massachusetts murder case involving a football player have already named CTE as an unindicted co-conspirator. Philadelphia magazine’s Joel Mathis asks, “Did football drive Aaron Hernandez to murder?” Comparing football hits to cigarette smoking, Mathis wonders whether CTE-caused violence might be the sport’s equivalent of second-hand smoke. But with no existing science demonstrating that football causes CTE, what causes the leap in logic that being a member of the New England Patriots, rather than the Bristol Bloods, nudges a man towards murder?

Nick79 wrote:Me too, at that age, we had a tackle football game in the park every day of the week from August until Christmas pretty much. But you don't see that anymore, anywhere. If I see a group of kids randomly playing any sport, any pick up game, other than maybe basketball, I am shocked!

The coolest thing I see now is at this park near me, that is close to a Muslim school, there are all these immigrant Muslim kids, who pull NFL jerseys over their Taliban robes and play tackle football.


Man, it's about as scientific as the CTE studies...but I'm in the deep south and they aren't hearing this bullshit for a second...and more then just the athletes thats one of the reasons the SEC is so dominant. Look at baseball as well. It might be a 105 degrees down here...and still you drive by any park and the fields and courts are full of little savages of wide age variation doing what has come naturally since we were primarily hunter gatherers. There is a tiny fraction of golf only parents down here, while that seems to be the rule in the north now. I've got a friend in Texas originally from PGH and he says it's much the same there as compared to PGH. I realize the state of education in these parts...but I'm really thinking it's more large urban meme versus small town willful ignorance.

If there is a single issue that pisses me off the most it's this one. Every fucking gen X broad with an advanced education read It takes a Village...and actually still believes in that bullshit. So we get this generation of record setting fat, coddled sissies....

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:48 pm

Zeke5123 wrote:Yeah, that Paul George is a giant pussy...


So what...rare injury. What's the point?

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Post by Nick79 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:56 pm

A lot of kids are going to soccer around here, my daughter plays and I love her playing, but she's a girl and never would've played football anyways, but in fact am ENCOURAGING her to work on heading the ball, she's a 5-6 13 year old in the U14 Select League, I could see her heading in some corner kicks if she learned and I have ZERO fear of her being seriously injured, I've headed a soccer ball, that's nothing compared to some of the head shots I took playing HS football back in the day.

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:08 pm

I agree Nick...if I had a daughter I would encourage soccer, basketball, tennis, really anything but football(there is some of that believe it or not) MMA or boxing.

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Post by Legacy User » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:19 pm

Most people who grew up in the 60's, 70's & 80's rode bikes without helmets, didn't wear seat belts, played games like smear the queer and participated in back yard tackle football games on a regular basis. So please spare me the "back in my day" bullshit. :roll:

Oh look at me, I was a way tougher kid than you were. I bet I coulda kicked your ass back in 3rd grade. I can kick your ass on the internet!

The posters that insist on dominating every single thread are fuckin' ridiculous.

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Post by Thrillsseeker » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:12 pm

Double Yoi wrote:Most people who grew up in the 60's, 70's & 80's rode bikes without helmets, didn't wear seat belts, played games like smear the queer and participated in back yard tackle football games on a regular basis. So please spare me the "back in my day" bullshit. :roll:

Oh look at me, I was a way tougher kid than you were. I bet I coulda kicked your ass back in 3rd grade. I can kick your ass on the internet!

The posters that insist on dominating every single thread are fuckin' ridiculous.

Image


Born in 73.

Tackle football in the grass lot at the end of my block was the place to be. Broke my scapula once playing with my older brothers and their friends. Great fuckin times. Rode thru the neighborhood on day to see a house built there. Wanted to burn it down. LoL.

Smear the queer was pretty tough. Loved that game. Usually ended when a bloody nose or lip occurred .

Those were the days.

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Post by Steelafan77 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:23 pm

In no way was I or anyone comparing themselves to anyone else past, present or future. Helmets really don't matter as far as stopping brain injury anyway. Good God man If you can't cope, don't mope, there's hope smoke dope! :mrgreen:

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:21 am

Double Yoi wrote:Most people who grew up in the 60's, 70's & 80's rode bikes without helmets, didn't wear seat belts, played games like smear the queer and participated in back yard tackle football games on a regular basis. So please spare me the "back in my day" bullshit. :roll:

Oh look at me, I was a way tougher kid than you were. I bet I coulda kicked your ass back in 3rd grade. I can kick your ass on the internet!

The posters that insist on dominating every single thread are fuckin' ridiculous.

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I'm 34 and smear the queer was the game we played from elementary till middle school.. Got a black eye playing it once. That said, if I had a son I'd want for him to put a helmet on till middle school...

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:26 am

Steelafan77 wrote:don't mope, there's hope smoke dope!

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8-)

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:49 am

Zivco wrote:
Steeler Jones wrote:'ve coached women and men, and what I've found, for the most part, is that women have a much HIGHER pain tolerance than men and are much LESS likely to pull themselves from a game (or any other team activity) over injuries.


:lol: http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/23/men-vs-women-on-pain-who-hurts-more/

Right from article... "What accounts for the gender gap? Hormones may explain some of the difference — studies have shown that estrogen in women can help dampen the activity of pain receptors, helping them to tolerate higher levels of pain."

Steeler Jones wrote:You may be right about concussions being "overdiagnosed", but your so-called examples in support of that statement are piss poor.


Weren't my examples...if you get injured playing soccer or basketball your a pussy. Muscle pulls aside, that simple.

More....http://www.boston.com/dailydose/2012/10/12/new-study-highlights-flaws-concussion-diagnosis/ZyuFEX1LXhjRfZ3j7NDjPL/story.html


If you get injured you get injured. If you go up for headers in soccer (or down), you can get hurt. Actually, you can get hurt doing a bunch of other shit in soccer for that matter. Played football, rugby, skied downhill, did what is now called MMA- worst injury I've had was soccer, pretty much. Rec league bullshit. A "rare injury". But I haven't really been injured that much. Just assorted broken bones, sprains, contusions and concussions (like "real" ones with memory loss and headaches). It's what happens when you suck and compete anyway.

When you choose to be less fucking ignorant, let me know.

Then again- never mind. I'm certainly not going to fix stupid here.

But to the point of the original article- what is the point of putting your kid in pads before 5th grade, again? Just not seeing it. Unless you fit a very specific size criteria at that age, you aren't playing ball anyway.

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:58 am

I'm 34 and smear the queer was the game we played from elementary till middle school.. Got a black eye playing it once. That said, if I had a son I'd want for him to put a helmet on till middle school.


Where I was if you weighed between 100 and 125 you could play Pop Warner which was full pads all that- 5th and 6th grades. 7th grade was your first shot at "real" ball otherwise.

So yeah- smear the queer it was... I don't remember anyone getting a concussion doing it. We did blow up a kids knee one time. Dislocation + ACL.

Concussions are not my biggest worry for my kid. If you start getting a lot, go do something else. The orthopedists knife is another thing altogether... No way to re-build your joints as strong as they were to start with, really.

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:52 am

Steeler Jones wrote:If you get injured you get injured. If you go up for headers in soccer (or down), you can get hurt. Actually, you can get hurt doing a bunch of other shit in soccer for that matter. Played football, rugby, skied downhill, did what is now called MMA- worst injury I've had was soccer, pretty much. Rec league bullshit. A "rare injury". But I haven't really been injured that much. Just assorted broken bones, sprains, contusions and concussions (like "real" ones with memory loss and headaches). It's what happens when you suck and compete anyway.

When you choose to be less fucking ignorant, let me know.

Then again- never mind. I'm certainly not going to fix stupid here.


Let me tell you what stupid is...clipping that sentence from Time to imply that women have a higher pain threshhold then men rather then some half assed rationalization that suggests women might score lower at a different time of the month...in any case...

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Steeler Jones wrote:But to the point of the original article- what is the point of putting your kid in pads before 5th grade, again? Just not seeing it. Unless you fit a very specific size criteria at that age, you aren't playing ball anyway.


That's another part of being stupid. It really wasn't about stage parents gone football. It is more or less advocacy for the end of youth football. By the time I was 8 we had won 2 SBs and I had already decided as soon as I could play I would play. Unless much has changed making weight wasn't onerous...isn't it like a 40% rate of childhood obesity? But god fucking forbid you put a fat little bastard on a diet or teach him about calories...you, you, bully :lol:

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:45 am

Steeler Jones wrote:
I'm 34 and smear the queer was the game we played from elementary till middle school.. Got a black eye playing it once. That said, if I had a son I'd want for him to put a helmet on till middle school.


Where I was if you weighed between 100 and 125 you could play Pop Warner which was full pads all that- 5th and 6th grades. 7th grade was your first shot at "real" ball otherwise.

So yeah- smear the queer it was... I don't remember anyone getting a concussion doing it. We did blow up a kids knee one time. Dislocation + ACL.

Concussions are not my biggest worry for my kid. If you start getting a lot, go do something else. The orthopedists knife is another thing altogether... No way to re-build your joints as strong as they were to start with, really.

I started pop Warner when I was in the third grade... Fully padded. Think I was around 75 pounds or so. I really can't remember having any type of concussion situation until I played on the JV team in high school. I. Made a hit in special teams practice and 'rung my bell'. Just remember my coach saying great stick and to walk it off lol.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having kids suit up in pads early, just that I'd prefer if I had a son to wait later. These days young boys are bigger, faster and stronger.

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Post by Legacy User » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:00 pm

R S wrote:when I was a kid we played flag football until junior high. 7th grade was the first experience with helmets and pads. Though, like zivco says, we played tackle football all day long in the backyard. I tend to agree with Madden. There is no point in a kids that young with full pads on. I could agree with 6th grade. Maybe 5th. NO younger.


Agree with all that and did the same but I think it was smart too. Helmet adds weight to your head and you need to get used to just running with it. 6 year olds are too young and too awkward to be wearing them IMO.

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