Bell VS other RB's

[Steelafan77]

There was no thread regarding Tuitt's extension so. Inquiring minds...
Nothing has been mentioned for likely good reason about Tuitt's impending extension. We've seen Kolbert get his after Tomlin got his. I can see Tuitt getting his sometime this week before the Browns game.
This from Labs asked and answered column this morning.

Question: are they any closer to signing Tuitt to an extension? The Steelers typically don't negotiate any longer when the first game starts, correct??

Answer: Yes, the deadline for Stephon Tuitt to sign a contract extension is 12:59 p.m. on Sunday, Sept. 10. http://www.steelers.com/news/asked-and- ... 6a67b6e7f9

[Legacy User]

If they get it done it and Haden doesn't pull a Donnell Woolford, it will have been a rather successful offseason.

[Steelafan77]

Fully agreed Chicago. Honestly, this has been the best offseason I've followed since the 1990's. The staff went above and beyond anything I could have sarcstically hoped for. This offseason came as such a surprise I'm still in a bit of shock wrapping my head around it all. Surreal!

[stillthere]

Fully agreed Chicago. Honestly, this has been the best offseason I've followed since the 1990's. The staff went above and beyond anything I could have sarcstically hoped for. This offseason came as such a surprise I'm still in a bit of shock wrapping my head around it all. Surreal!

I think they made more moves this off season than they have have since we got Jerome Bettis combined.

[Steelafan77]

Looks like the Steelers got Wilcox 2yrs $5.5Mil. $2.375 this season and $3.125 for 2018. So Wilcox salary of $2.375 for 2017 is a cap hit this season. Which leaves the Steelers $5Mil in cap space. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/cap/

Unless I missed something or the spotrac numbers are inaccurate I don't see how they can sign Tuitt to his extension this week. Perhaps one/some of you more mathematically intune fans can explain it.

[Scunge]

Well, there are ways to get creative with what we have left.

For example I read that Tampa may have eaten the $1 million roster bonus? Wilcox signed a 2 year $6.25 million deal where he was supposed to have a $1 million roster bonus? So, if they picked it up (Tampa) wouldn't the amount of his contract be just $5.25 million?

I see he has some sort of incentive bonus, probably tied to playing time for $250,000, so that is how I come up with the $5.25 million.

The first year he has a base salary of $2.125 million, the Steelers could convert that to a signing bonus, which would be prorated over this year and next, so he would only count $1.06 million this season.

The other option is that Art Moats is scheduled to earn $2.25 million in base salary this season.

They just brought back Steven Johnson so they have 10 LBers again, but Moats should be nervous. If Tuitt is to be signed and they need money, Moats and his $2.25 million may be needed to make it happen.

Here is the sticking point. If Moats is on the roster for that first game and then is cut, I am pretty sure he can put in a claim and get that full amount for the season that was coming to him. NFL contracts are not guaranteed but there are some points of that not true. If you are a vet, and are on the roster for that 1st game, you are pretty much guaranteed to see that money for the entire season. So, the time to cut Moats is between now and Saturday.

And of course they can always go to the usual list of suspects and do a restructure. I know Gilbert has been making some noise lately about how he is maybe unhappy with his current contract. Maybe they convert some of his base salary to a signing bonus this year to free up some money for Tuitt and make Gilbert happy in the process. Gilbert is to make $4 million in base salary this season.

They could restructure that $4 million, convert $2-3 million of that to a signing bonus and spread it out over the next 3 seasons.

[stillthere]

Could they not just make it an actual extension and leave his cap number basically the same and give him a roster bonus and all the signing bonus kick in next year when the extension actually kicks in? Throw him 2 million this week put in a roster bonus for april 1 or march 1 and have his actual salary jump up next season?

[Legacy User]

Could they not just make it an actual extension and leave his cap number basically the same and give him a roster bonus and all the signing bonus kick in next year when the extension actually kicks in? Throw him 2 million this week put in a roster bonus for april 1 or march 1 and have his actual salary jump up next season?

Yes....

Contrary to popular myth any team can sign any player for whatever. The supposed salary cap is extremely fungible.

[Scunge]

Tuitt is in the last year of his contract. He is to make $1,048,561 in base salary, he counts $1,466,642 against the cap (the signing bonus prorated portion is $418,081).

I think Tuitt will get more than what Cam Heyward got, and Cam signed for 6 years, $59 million with a $12 million signing bonus.

Heyward got a $12 million signing bonus, DeCastro got $16 million, Brown got $19 million.

I believe Tuitt should see a contract like 5 years, $55 million, with a $15-16 million signing bonus and probably roster bonuses totaling some 10 million in the 2nd and 3rd years of his new contract which is what the Steeler have been doing of late with Decastro and Heyward contracts.

So, even if the Steelers start him out with a base salary of $1 million you still have that signing bonus to contend with, which spread out over 5 years is still going to add $3+ million to his cap total this year.

So, say $1 million for his base, $418,000 remaining from his original signing bonus, and then an additional $3-3.2 million from the new signing bonus. You add that up and it comes out to $4.4 million, which is up substantially from that $1.46 million that he currently counts against the cap.

They need to come up with $3 million to sign Tuitt. If they cut Moats and restructure Gilbert than that easily allows them to sign Tuitt and have enough money leftover to operate comfortably as the season progresses.

[zeke5123]

Besides locking up Tuitt (which is a good unto itself), we need to lock him up so we can franchise Bell next season.

[Scunge]

I know people don't want to talk about this or think about it but maybe the Steeler don't franchise Bell next year? Or maybe they do by placing the one franchise tag that allows Bell to negotiate with other teams and we get compensated if we don't match the offer he signs.

[Steelersfan]

They can push some money to next year. I think we end up having tons of cap room next year too. Not even figuring a Ben retirement in the mix. I figure the minute this seasons over; Gay, Deebo, Moats, are off the books. Then possibly Mitchell, Golden, Sensabaugh, Foster, Hubbard, Big Dan, Bell are swapped for younger cheaper replacements. The cap space should be there. And if Ben's rides off, then the bottom really falls out.

[Suwanee88]

Fully agreed Chicago. Honestly, this has been the best offseason I've followed since the 1990's. The staff went above and beyond anything I could have sarcstically hoped for. This offseason came as such a surprise I'm still in a bit of shock wrapping my head around it all. Surreal!

Agree- I have been bitching about a lack of trades for 5+ years as a way to acquire players and supplement their drafts.

[Legacy User]

I know people don't want to talk about this or think about it but maybe the Steeler don't franchise Bell next year? Or maybe they do by placing the one franchise tag that allows Bell to negotiate with other teams and we get compensated if we don't match the offer he signs.

17 mill for an RB is steep and it limits him to maybe three of four teams that can use him, afford him, and have a chance to have a winning record. The problem in letting a guy set his own market is he might be willing to go somewhere for less if the chances of winning are higher. But the feeling I am getting from Bell- I believe he'll take the pay day knowing that the tread on his tires is limited. Bomb out halfway through the deal and go to rapping full time.

He could have commanded 17 million if the Steelers were coming off an SB victory, in which he was a deciding factor.

[jebrick]

I know people don't want to talk about this or think about it but maybe the Steeler don't franchise Bell next year? Or maybe they do by placing the one franchise tag that allows Bell to negotiate with other teams and we get compensated if we don't match the offer he signs.

17 mill for an RB is steep and it limits him to maybe three of four teams that can use him, afford him, and have a chance to have a winning record. The problem in letting a guy set his own market is he might be willing to go somewhere for less if the chances of winning are higher. But the feeling I am getting from Bell- I believe he'll take the pay day knowing that the tread on his tires is limited. Bomb out halfway through the deal and go to rapping full time.

He could have commanded 17 million if the Steelers were coming off an SB victory, in which he was a deciding factor.

I do not think any RB commands 17M per year. I do not think Barry Sanders would have gotten 17M per year. That being said, the Browns might throw $15 million at him if they think their offense is coming around. But I think 12M is the ceiling on RB ( and I am often wrong).

[Scunge]

Considering that the top two paid RBs right now are McCoy and Freeman and they make 8 million and 8.25 million per season, I would say that $8 million is the ceiling for RBs right now, Bell is out of his mind turning down the Steelers $12 million offer and nobody is going to pay him $15-17 million.

But hey, slap the non exclusive franchise tag on him next season and let him find a team and sign an offer sheet. Would love to get two first round picks for him.

I feel like next season someone will offer him the exact years and amount that the Steelers offered and he will take it. If it is more guaranteed money up front he will use that as an excuse and say that was the issue with the Steelers offer all along, blah, blah, blah, that he really wasn't looking for $15 million a season, blah, blah, blah.

[Legacy User]

I know people don't want to talk about this or think about it but maybe the Steeler don't franchise Bell next year? Or maybe they do by placing the one franchise tag that allows Bell to negotiate with other teams and we get compensated if we don't match the offer he signs.

17 mill for an RB is steep and it limits him to maybe three of four teams that can use him, afford him, and have a chance to have a winning record. The problem in letting a guy set his own market is he might be willing to go somewhere for less if the chances of winning are higher. But the feeling I am getting from Bell- I believe he'll take the pay day knowing that the tread on his tires is limited. Bomb out halfway through the deal and go to rapping full time.

He could have commanded 17 million if the Steelers were coming off an SB victory, in which he was a deciding factor.

I do not think any RB commands 17M per year. I do not think Barry Sanders would have gotten 17M per year. That being said, the Browns might throw $15 million at him if they think their offense is coming around. But I think 12M is the ceiling on RB ( and I am often wrong).

You have a guy in the top 5 RB and a top 30 WR on the team in 13 Regular season games. Something that has NEVER happened before. Bell has better-receiving numbers than 1/2 of the league's number ones playing in 3 fewer games. So to say a guy doesn't deserve 17 million based on the past stars is erroneous based on a static few of money, inflation, TV contracts and what he brings to the table.

I would say that in today's market a Herschel Walker or Barry Sanders could command 20 million if they could run routes like a WR. Now for the sake of argument, I will say that Bell cannot ask for that based on his playoff performances(or lack thereof) and his traditional 2 or 3 game layoffs at the beginning of seasons. But if Bell puts up 2500 yards from scrimmage this year and we win the SB- 17 million will be his.

[Legacy User]

AP got 14.5ish in '14 ?

Bell is well worth 15. He and his agent arent dumb.
They knew he was getting tagged at 12ish and the following year would be 14.5ish.

They are setting the market. He wil be 27 when he hits the market in '19. He will have low miles and 2 rings. Hes easily gonna get 15M+ . We will get pick 97 and 98 for Bell and Bryant

[Steelperch]

AP got 14.5ish in '14 ?

Bell is well worth 15. He and his agent arent dumb.
They knew he was getting tagged at 12ish and the following year would be 14.5ish.

They are setting the market. He wil be 27 when he hits the market in '19. He will have low miles and 2 rings. Hes easily gonna get 15M+ . We will get pick 97 and 98 for Bell and Bryant

All I can say to that is Demarco Murray.

Murray rushed for 1800 yards and caught 400 yards worth of passes. He went into free agency and saw the market for RBs was soft and took an $8 million per year contract. Bell is worth what somebody will pay him, I doubt that is much higher than what he was offered by the Steelers.

[Legacy User]

AP got 14.5ish in '14 ?

Bell is well worth 15. He and his agent arent dumb.
They knew he was getting tagged at 12ish and the following year would be 14.5ish.

They are setting the market. He wil be 27 when he hits the market in '19. He will have low miles and 2 rings. Hes easily gonna get 15M+ . We will get pick 97 and 98 for Bell and Bryant

All I can say to that is Demarco Murray.

Murray rushed for 1800 yards and caught 400 yards worth of passes. He went into free agency and saw the market for RBs was soft and took an $8 million per year contract. Bell is worth what somebody will pay him, I doubt that is much higher than what he was offered by the Steelers.

I agree.

In '19 the cap is gonna be 190 or damn close. The Steelers will have room if they want to sign both Bell AND Bryant

[Legacy User]

AP got 14.5ish in '14 ?

Bell is well worth 15. He and his agent arent dumb.
They knew he was getting tagged at 12ish and the following year would be 14.5ish.

They are setting the market. He wil be 27 when he hits the market in '19. He will have low miles and 2 rings. Hes easily gonna get 15M+ . We will get pick 97 and 98 for Bell and Bryant

All I can say to that is Demarco Murray.

Murray rushed for 1800 yards and caught 400 yards worth of passes. He went into free agency and saw the market for RBs was soft and took an $8 million per year contract. Bell is worth what somebody will pay him, I doubt that is much higher than what he was offered by the Steelers.

I think the soft market was a contributing factor, but I believe that the book on Murray is that he was in the right spot at the right time in Dallas. Great offensive line, an above average QB that gave him opportunities to run into favorable numbers in the box. Most of his receptions were check downs, wheel routes, and screens basically stuff a RB should be able to do. The fact that he has not even sniffed those numbers since has shown his value to be at that mark.

I think what we miss about Bell sometimes is his ability to get the defense to commit pre-snap what they are going to do. Which gives us the ability to adjust the play to take advantage of. Reggie Bush gave the Saints offense something similar, Marshall Faulk same way. Those RBs made defenses commit in ways that a Demarco Murray could never dictate.

[Scunge]

Bell's receiving numbers? Better than many #1 WRs, are you serious? His numbers aren't even better than many other RBs.

I look at the past two years and what has he done really? Nothing that says he is generational, that his production is so great that he deserves to be paid like a #2 WR as well.

Here is a game, match the receiving production with the RB. I will include number of catches over 20+ yards and 40+ too.

A 127 catches, 1,040 yards, 8.2 avg, 5 TDs, 6 over 20+, 1 over 40+
B 116 catches, 1,336 yards, 11.5 avg, 8 TDs, 19 over 20+, 4 over 40+
C 99 catches, 752 yards, 7.6 avg, 2 TDs, 6 over 20+ yards, 0 over 40+
D 82 catches, 648 yards, 7.9 avg, 3 TDs, 5 over 20+ yards, 1 over 40+
E 74 catches, 652 yards, 8.8 avg, 4 TDs, 7 over 20+ yards, 1 over 40+

1 Matt Forte
2 Leveon Bell
3 Shady McCoy
4 Devonta Freeman
5 David Johnson

Now I don't know about you but whoever that RB was that produced B up above is a stud. That is truly production worthy of being paid extra as a WR, to average 11.5 yards a catch? To score 8 TDs? To have 19 catches over 20+ yards, to have 4 catches over 40+ yards? Wow, that is somebody who is not just talking out of his ass, this is a RB who really can run routes like a WR and actually does get down the field and run more than just check downs out to the flat. Who is this RB I wonder?

Obviously it must be Leveon Bell right? I mean he keeps bragging about he is the best receiving RB in the NFL, about how he runs routes like a WR, so it must be him, right? Wrong, Bell did not have that B production.

So, then Bell must have had that A production right? He must have led all RB in catches with 127, right? He must have gone over 1,040 receiving yards and scored 5 TDs right? Wrong, that was not him either.

Lord, I hope Bell did not produce that C production, that is really the most lame of the 5, to score only 2 TDs, to average a mere 7.6 yards per catch? Surely that can't be him? How can you boldly claim you should be paid like a WR when you put production like that out there?

Like I said, it is a fun game and it really does show how Bell's receiving prowess is overblown, and overrated.

[Legacy User]

Watch the games. If you dont think Bell is the best RB since at least Faulk you really dont understand football

[Legacy User]

Bell's receiving numbers? Better than many #1 WRs, are you serious? His numbers aren't even better than many other RBs.

I look at the past two years and what has he done really? Nothing that says he is generational, that his production is so great that he deserves to be paid like a #2 WR as well.

Here is a game, match the receiving production with the RB. I will include number of catches over 20+ yards and 40+ too.

A 127 catches, 1,040 yards, 8.2 avg, 5 TDs, 6 over 20+, 1 over 40+
B 116 catches, 1,336 yards, 11.5 avg, 8 TDs, 19 over 20+, 4 over 40+
C 99 catches, 752 yards, 7.6 avg, 2 TDs, 6 over 20+ yards, 0 over 40+
D 82 catches, 648 yards, 7.9 avg, 3 TDs, 5 over 20+ yards, 1 over 40+
E 74 catches, 652 yards, 8.8 avg, 4 TDs, 7 over 20+ yards, 1 over 40+

1 Matt Forte
2 Leveon Bell
3 Shady McCoy
4 Devonta Freeman
5 David Johnson

Now I don't know about you but whoever that RB was that produced B up above is a stud. That is truly production worthy of being paid extra as a WR, to average 11.5 yards a catch? To score 8 TDs? To have 19 catches over 20+ yards, to have 4 catches over 40+ yards? Wow, that is somebody who is not just talking out of his ass, this is a RB who really can run routes like a WR and actually does get down the field and run more than just check downs out to the flat. Who is this RB I wonder?

Obviously it must be Leveon Bell right? I mean he keeps bragging about he is the best receiving RB in the NFL, about how he runs routes like a WR, so it must be him, right? Wrong, Bell did not have that B production.

So, then Bell must have had that A production right? He must have led all RB in catches with 127, right? He must have gone over 1,040 receiving yards and scored 5 TDs right? Wrong, that was not him either.

Lord, I hope Bell did not produce that C production, that is really the most lame of the 5, to score only 2 TDs, to average a mere 7.6 yards per catch? Surely that can't be him? How can you boldly claim you should be paid like a WR when you put production like that out there?

Like I said, it is a fun game and it really does show how Bell's receiving prowess is overblown, and overrated.

You lying dishonest mofo

Here are Bells real numbers
291/227 = 78%
2005/227 = 8.8
5 TDs

Additionally...it kinda matters alot whos offense a RB is in....and what they are called to do...but you knew that

[bradshaw2ben]

He used the correct numbers for receiving. You are muddying the waters with rushing numbers.

Also, if you think LBell is a better RB than David Johnson, you're delusional. If those two guys switched places, DJ would be even more ridiculous than he has been already.

[Legacy User]

He used the correct numbers for receiving. You are muddying the waters with rushing numbers.

Also, if you think LBell is a better RB than David Johnson, you're delusional. If those two guys switched places, DJ would be even more ridiculous than he has been already.

Those are Bells career receiving numbers

[bradshaw2ben]

Last two years was the timeframe he used and it's a fair comparison.

[Legacy User]

Last two years was the timeframe he used and it's a fair comparison.

Perhaps....but I will never see any wisdom in dumping a GREAT RB.....AND THEN.....drafting a rd 1 QB with the proceeds....all because someone doesnt have what it takes to ride the ship all the way out with probably a top 5 or 10 QB in the history of the league....

Lets dismantle Bens team and draft another unproven college kid to take over the team ???

Zero reason to do it other than Madden football thinking

[Scunge]

Exactly, B2B. Freeman and Johnson came on the scene the past two years and those are their numbers. Bell claims to be the best receiving RB in the NFL but he isn't, I would rather have Freeman and Johnson and most especially Johnson.

Bell is not this generational talent with once-in-a-lifetime ability. He is just one of many very good RBs that can run and catch right now. He is not better than David Johnson, or Freeman or McCoy and does not deserve to be paid more than double of what Freeman and McCoy make, that is just silly.

If Bell wants to be paid what he think he is worth than prove it. David Johnson is really on a sub-standard team in terms of the O-line, QB, etc and yet he overcame all of that and scored 20 TDs. Shady McCoy has had a season where he scored 20 TDs, hell Deangelo Williams had a season where he scored 20 TDs. What is Bell's excuse?

The past two years Bell has scored 12 TDs, he scored 9 TDs last season.

David Johnson has scored 33 TDs the past two seasons, 33 TDs in 32 games, 1 to 1 ratio.

Johnson has clearly overtaken Bell as the best RB in the NFL, it isn't even close, take off the Steeler homer glasses and deal with it.

[Havoc]

Bell is a knucklehead.

There have been many great backs over the years including recents AP and LT.

Bell is not getting 2500 YScm.

Terrell Davis broke 2000 YScm twice and both in Super Bowl winning seasons.

Bell is overrated in the receiving game sans his 2014 season. He was a superstar that year.

Bell has done nothing for this franchise in the PS to this point in his career... and he has taken his approach. Laughable.

When we light up the scoreboard with the vertical passing game in the first half mixing in the run... I do not care much about Bell's gaudy numbers at the end of those games. That's not the real story of what happened in those games.

David Johnson last season 11.0 Y/R ... what a beast.

If Bell can get back to his 2014 Y/R we will be having a different discussion.