Pens v Habs Game 4 (8-7-20)

[fractalsteel]

Times like this make me appreciate 2016 and 2017 all the more.

[Louis Lipps Service]

Times like this make me appreciate 2016 and 2017 all the more.

For sure.

We got spoiled and forgot how hard winning a Stanley Cup really is, I think.

I don't think our window is completely closed yet...though I do think they'd have to make a lot of drastic moves to keep it open....but if we have seen our last cup in a while....I certainly won't be able to complain.

[Pabst]

Schultz just played his last game in a Pens uniform. Hopefully Sheary did too.

Beyond those two and one of the goalies, the roster is already set for next year. My measure of success for the offseason is whether or not Johnson is still on the team.

[JJT07]

This team sucks. They just got bounced by a .500 team. On Sid's birthday none the less.

They won't compete for a long time. Sullivan should be gone.

[bradshaw2ben]

In fairness, That's a better Montreal team than advertised. Carey Price plays like that next series, they could easily move on. Their analytics are pretty good and they have great goaltending and good defenders.

[daikyu]

I am not a kill the coach when they lose person. I think the Sully lost the ability to get this team to perform at their peak. Not sure why but things like Sheary continuing on Sid’s line when he is an obvious liability but Sid wants him there is part of it.

I would give Sully the beginning of next season but a very short leash. His shelf life here may be up.

[Orangesteel]

Well, I didn’t see a minute of the game, but perhaps that’s a good thing. This follows 2020 generally so I’m not surprised.

Good news I brought a beautiful baby girl Pens and Steelers fan into the world today. Her and mama are doing great. On to football (errr, I think?).

[Louis Lipps Service]

Well, I didn’t see a minute of the game, but perhaps that’s a good thing. This follows 2020 generally so I’m not surprised.

Good news I brought a beautiful baby girl Pens and Steelers fan into the world today. Her and mama are doing great. On to football (errr, I think?).

Congrats!

[daikyu]

Congratulations

If baseball is any indication football is doomed this season

[Orangesteel]

Thanks gentlemen.

[stillthere]

Sooooooooo.........

What are the odds the Pens get Lafreniere?

I think 12.5 % chance. I saw the number in the last day or two.

EDIT - Found it

On Monday, the NHL will hold a single draw in which every team has equal 12.5 percent odds to win the No. 1 overall pick and (what is expected to be) Lafreniere. The other seven teams will be assigned positions 9-15, in inverse order of their points percentages at the time the regular season was paused.

[Ice]

Lafreniere would certainly cheer me up.

I'd be open to walking away from a lot of our current players at this point, by the way. Pretty much anyone on D not named Marino or POJ and any forward not named Crosby, Guentzel or Poulin if the price is right, and I'm ready to hand goalie over to Jarry.

[fractalsteel]

Orangesteel-congrats.
Your daughter gets to share a special birthday with a legend.

Technically, did the Pens make the playoffs this year?
They traded this years first rounder for Zucker but can push it until next year if they made the playoffs.

Lafraniere would be a nice boost to the future but I'd be thrilled to land Byfield who could fill the second center in a few years. He is big, very fast and has great hands.

Since the Pens last hoisted the cup back in 2017 they have gone 7-13 in the playoffs.
Something is wrong.

[Louis Lipps Service]

Orangesteel-congrats.
Your daughter gets to share a special birthday with a legend.

Technically, did the Pens make the playoffs this year?
They traded this years first rounder for Zucker but can push it until next year if they made the playoffs.

Lafraniere would be a nice boost to the future but I'd be thrilled to land Byfield who could fill the second center in a few years. He is big, very fast and has great hands.

Since the Pens last hoisted the cup back in 2017 they have gone 7-13 in the playoffs.
Something is wrong.

The NHL did announce that the CBA specifies that this is, indeed, a playoff appearance. So yes, we made the playoffs...however disgraceful it was.

[Jobu]

Congrats Orangesteel

[Chidi Iwuoma]

Schultz just played his last game in a Pens uniform. Hopefully Sheary did too.

Beyond those two and one of the goalies, the roster is already set for next year.

Haven't scored more than three goals in a game since opening round of '18. Can't pin it all on defense, unfortunately.

[Ice]

The defensemen don't really do a great job of getting the puck up to the forwards. Letang was passing more pucks to the Habs than the Pens, it seemed. Johnson is less than a traffic cone. Schultz was right there with Johnson in terms of suckitude. That pairing was a dumpster fire, yet trotted out three games straight. Peterson is JAG. Dumoulin wasn't very effective. Marino was about the only one that looked good consistently. Hopefully POJ can make an impact next season. Other than those two, they can all go, for whatever offer.

Crosby played hard, Guentzel fine, some rust from inactive time, but he'll be fine. Zucker didn't look awful. Tanev brought some speed and desire. I like Blueger. Outside of them, I'm listening to all offers.

Murray's gone based on money, and an awful glove hand he's never fixed.

Sullivan? 1-9. Rutherford? Seems to be back in end of tenure Carolina mode. Both can, and probably should, be replaced.

It's been a great run, but this team isn't a tweak or two away anymore.

[bradshaw2ben]

"HCMS refused to reunite the 71/17/59 line, even for a few shifts, it was as bad as his deployment of pylon J Johnson"

from the Athletic comments

so true

[fractalsteel]

I'd be open to walking away from a lot of our current players at this point, by the way. Pretty much anyone on D not named Marino or POJ and any forward not named Crosby, Guentzel or Poulin if the price is right, and I'm ready to hand goalie over to Jarry.

A lot of fans said the same thing after 2013,2014 and 2015.

Letang and Malkin have trade clauses making them difficult to trade. If you manage to trade Malkin maybe he says fuck it and goes home to finish in the KHL. What more does he have to prove to the NHL? Teams might be leary of him due to this.

You would get rid of Rust? Guy would have scored 30 goals if they played a full season. His goal totals almost improve year to year.

You would keep Poulin over Malkin? Poulin hasn't logged one minute in the NHL while Malkin had an MVP type regular season. A lesser tender in the Montreal series and Malkin probably has 3 to 4 goals.
If you trade Letang and Dumo who are your top pairing? Who is the leader of the defense? Marino? He has only done it one year, I need to see more but I do like his potential a great deal but a second year guy the leader of the defense? That is a big gamble.
Zucker is a 30 goal scorer next to Crosby or Malkin.

How do you propose to blow up the majority of the team? Has it been done in one year prior?

[Ice]

I went into more detail on my next post.

I'm not trading all of em (that would be silly), but I'm open to interesting offers on anyone but the players mentioned (including the two top prospects, who, obviously haven't played yet). I can see your point on Rusty. I give Sid a pass because I think his game has longevity to it. Injuries being a caveat, but he could be a team leader at 3C at age 40.

The "you're not going to get anything good, so we might as well be mediocre till they retire" approach you seem to be advocating doesn't appeal to me. It hasn't been 2013, 2014 or 2015 for a while, man. These guys are getting past their prime, unfortunately. Nothing lasts forever.

Letang is losing athleticism and never had instincts. Geno, I love the guy, but the crappy penalties and lack of production in the playoffs is two years now. If both are on the team next year, it's shuffling deck chairs. We'll likely see both back, anyway.

I don't see a lot of "untouchable" pieces on this team. If you want to give them a bubble/COVID pass and try one more time with this group and a couple tweaks next year, I'll watch for nostalgia, I guess.

I'm not even touching Sullivan or Johnson.

[fractalsteel]

Again, Malkin and Letang have trade clauses in their contracts. That hurts the Pens leverage in trading them.
Say you get a first rounder and prospect for Malkin. Who is the second center next year? Probably have to go out and get one.
I have no idea what either player is worth in the game of trading players but I have to imagine they would be more value to the Pens at the trading deadline(if they are willing) then the offseason.
Another thing, last off season(which seems like another lifetime) the Pens were trying to trade Kessel. Malkin wanted him gone and it was floated in the press that he would demand a trade if Phil wasn't moved.
Then came the Malkin trade rumors and the Pittsburgh press made it known that Crosby would be very unhappy if the Pens traded Malkin.
The two are very good friends, so there is that dynamic.

I'm going to judge Malkin on what he did all year, not just four playoff games. Sure he didn't put the puck in the net but it wasn't for a lack of trying. He had 17 shot attempts in game one. That is effort.
21 shots on goal for the series. He wasn't loafing out there.
55% in the FO circle is nothing to sneeze at as well.
During the regular season, sans a lot of pieces including Crosby and Guentzel, he put up MVP type numbers.
The penalties are his biggest flaw and drive me crazy.


Moving Malkin is a complex deal and I go back to when the Pens had to trade Jagr. They got shit for him and the team floundered for years.
I'd rather watch a declining Malkin put up good to great numbers then watch some stiff who we got fleeced for him bumble around.
Now, if they could get a King's ransom for him, then you have to SERIOUSLY consider it but then again, Sid might say no.

A complicated offseason is ahead for the Pens.

Changes need to be made and maybe the best place to start might be the HC.

[Ice]

I REALLY hope "Sid saying no" isn't why we continue to endlessly push Johnson back on the ice, game after game after game.

I think you're right on the complexity of the offseason, and the head coach, which makes me wonder if GMJR is the man to handle it.

The every game Stupid Malkin Penalty is a lot easier to stomach when he's putting the puck in the net, but they're maddening. Like Brett Favre interceptions, though. They're the bad with the good. Just really would have liked to see a lot more good the last 10 postseason games. To win games the way this team is structured, he HAS to show up when it counts, not with effort, but on the score sheet.

It's beginning to get to a point with this group where I wonder if good isn't on its way to becoming the enemy of great. Regular season wins and stats putting asses in the seats, but postseason? This group needs a shakeup, and if you're not going to shake up the players, Sullivan (and Recchi, at least) needs to go.

[fractalsteel]

The every game Stupid Malkin Penalty is a lot easier to stomach when he's putting the puck in the net, but they're maddening. Like Brett Favre interceptions, though. They're the bad with the good. Just really would have liked to see a lot more good the last 10 postseason games. To win games the way this team is structured, he HAS to show up when it counts, not with effort, but on the score sheet.

'The every game Stupid Malkin Penalty is way overstated. There is no basis to make such a claim even though his PM's are his albatross.
You mention the last ten playoff games. Here are the stats for two Pens over the last two series:

2 goals 2 assists
-4
2 PM
19 shots on goal
50.6 FO won
----------
i goal 3 assists
-4
12 PM
32 shots on goal
50% FO won
The last two years, one guy has been saddled with JJ and his partner more than the other, guess who?
Favre won a SB, Malkin has his name three times on the boldest trophy .

[Ice]

So how would you stave off the descent into age and mediocrity that is currently in progress? I understand you're a Malkin fan, and I am, too. I'll keep Crosby, as well, any day of the week. Like I said, I think his game will age well, as long as he's realistic with future financial demands, which history has shown he likely will be.

Who do you keep, who goes? Are we giving the core another pass and shuffling deck chairs again? Something more?

[fractalsteel]

I suppose it comes down to the notion that by trading Malkin you are building for the future or think you can magically replace him with equal or greater talent.

If ownership is looking to the future then make the trade but by doing so you probably wreck any chance of winning another cup in Crosby's few years of prime. Trying to replace Malkin through a trade would take some serious luck and magic.

I floated an idea back in 2017 that if the Pens three-peated then they should trade Malkin. Give him a chance to be the Captain of his own franchise but I was told by some that was a crazy idea.
The Malkin trade talk always heats up after a playoff loss. Go back to 2010 when Montreal ended the Pens chance to repeat. There were a lot of posters here saying we should trade Malkin, who was just 24 years old, a league MVP and Conn Smythe winner.

I get it now that the team's window is tight and some don't want to watch what is probably a sinking ship.

My guess, Mario, Rutherford and Crosby to a degree agreed some time ago to keep the core around and try and tweak it year to year hoping to win as many cups as possible. I'll wager they feel the same way today.

What I would want in the least for Malkin would be a top ten pick and an NHL caliber player, preferably a solid two way center or a top 4 Dman.
How many teams are willing to do such?

Working against a Malkin trade is that there are teams the Pens would never trade him to. Then you have his trade clause so knock more teams off the list. Then you have his 9 million dollar a year salary which makes the list even shorter. So in the end finding a team that checks off all those keys would be difficult, very much so.
If you find a team that fits all that maybe they would only make the trade if the Pens retained some of his salary. Ouch.

Trading Letang has similar problems.
Who fills in as the leader of the defense? Marino, a one year wonder? Who fills his place? It's not like the Pens have a lot of depth at the position.
Schultz is gone, fine by me. That leaves two holes. Is Ruhwedel an answer? I doubt the Pens would roll with two rookies in the lineup such as Addison or Joseph. Neither is guaranteed to be ready when the next season starts,whenever that may be.
Riikola might be the answer but he seems to have been fenced inside Sullivan's doghouse.

History repeats itself and this core has shown that changing HC's has led to Championships. That seems like the best way to go with a closing window.

Since they can't play a full season in a bubble who knows when the next season will be. Me, I'd roll with what we have, make a few tweaks and if they are floundering at the trade deadline then make the trades when teams are more desperate and willing to pay more ransom.

[Ice]

My guess, Mario, Rutherford and Crosby to a degree agreed some time ago to keep the core around and try and tweak it year to year hoping to win as many cups as possible. I'll wager they feel the same way today.

I agree with this, and you're right, I think we're going to get to watch the ship go down. My OP really just said I wouldn't have Malkin or Letang marked as untouchable going into this offseason, among many others. I'm listening to offers. Honestly, in 2020, his 9 million dollar salary is actually a bargain, to be honest; it's a reason to keep him around. For the minutes Tanger eats, his contract has actually turned out to be a bargain, as well. Have to listen, though, and maybe listen with a fresh pair of ears in the GM chair, along with a new coach on the bench.

[fractalsteel]

I agree that neither are untouchable. Only Sid is and if he leaves it is because he wanted to.

I'm just pointing out how tough it is to trade guys like them. Almost have to trade them straight up for a player of comparable skill, talent age.

I think they will play out the core hoping to get one more cup in there somewhere. Like I said earlier, there is schematic for getting there. Now that doesn't mean that the wouldn't rid themselves of Malkin. He could do something stupid that embarasses the franchise(video of him and Snoop Dog DP'ing Martha Stewart-leaked to the net for example)forcing them to move him.

Maybe they hit the lottery today.
A top 15 pick is in order.

[bradshaw2ben]

https://youtu.be/zMRrNY0pxfM