Poor Track Record drafting CB's

[Aussie_steeler]

We all know the track record of this FO when it comes to drafting CB's

Also over the past 10 years it also seems like more than half the CB's drafted in round 1 never pan out as expected. (Does CB have the highest first round bust rate in the draft??)

Got me thinking. Instead of spending a 1st on a CB would it be better to draft 3 mid round CB's and hedge your bets. Hedge your bets even more and draft DB's with some versatility????

Not likely, but one can dream.

I pass on Peters / Johnson / Collins ( who all will need some work) and turn that pick into 3 CB projects.

Trade Down 1 ( from 1.22 to 1.27 Dallas + 3.91)
Dallas selects Marcus Peters / Melvin Gordon

Trade down 2 ( from 1.27 to 1.29 Colts + 4.128)
Colts jump above Denver to select Cameron Erving

Steelers Draft
1.29 Maxx Williams TE ( Give Ben another weapon for his last five years)
2. 56 Nate Orchard OLB ( cant decide which DE to gamble on here....Orchard, Kikaha......)
3. 87 Eric Rowe CB / FS ( I see cornerback in Rowe. I know he can be a NFL FS)
3.91 Tony Lippett WR / CB ( Like Rowe start him at CB. Fallback WR if that doesn't work)
4.121 Senquez Golson CB ( We all feel the same about Golson. He is a player)
4.128 Henry Anderson DE ( Someone needs to step up and replace Keisel and Thomas)
5.160 James Sample SS / FS ( Everyone watched Holliman. Sample is the better player at both Safety positions)
6. 198 Sean Hickey OT / OG (Swingman who can play multiple positions)
6. comp Kyle Emmanuel OLB ( OLB project with athletic traits)
7 236 Cameron Clear OT / TE ( practice squad project, much like Villanueva)


My question to you.

Would you rather have 1 CB taken in the first or 3 CB's taken in the middle rounds?

[Legacy User]

I like your draft.

Imo Waynes and Peters are the only first round CBs in this draft.

Trade up in round 2 scenarios would be PJ Williams and Mills. Depending on who is on the board and who has upward trajectory I likely take Golson in round 3 if he is there.

I'm also betting the Cowboys try to move up...but I think it's going to be for Gurley, Path to the Drafts latest mock has Gordon going top 10. That's a great thing for Steeler fans...best case with this FO is to cheer for reaches in front of 22. I'm hoping that some team becomes enamored with Hundley, S Thompson, Perriman, J Phillips, K Johnson, J Fisher, E Harold and M Williams...they all have upward trajectory and have an attribute locked down...3rd QB, most athletic, fastest, space eating NG, fluid CB, pure LT, upside edge rusher(I disagree vehemently), and premier TE.

[bradshaw2ben]

Eric Rowe might go late round 1 early 2. I doubt he makes it past the steelers 2nd. I'm with Clem about 1st rd cbs except Waynes is in no way worthy

[Legacy User]

Eric Rowe might go late round 1 early 2. I doubt he makes it past the steelers 2nd. I'm with Clem about 1st rd cbs except Waynes is in no way worthy

Waynes may be "no way worthy" in your eyes, but he goes top 15 easily.

[langer]

Eric Rowe might go late round 1 early 2. I doubt he makes it past the steelers 2nd. I'm with Clem about 1st rd cbs except Waynes is in no way worthy

Waynes may be "no way worthy" in your eyes, but he goes top 15 easily.

Correct that some foolish or overconfident team will take him before 25 but imo he has some issues that will be very difficult if not improbable to correct.

He is acknowledged to be somewhat lacking in ability to cover receivers in off coverage-- he makes up for this by grabbing obstructing and mainly just blasting them at the top of the route stem just before they make their break. Yes, you can send hat kid to bootcamp and break him down and rebuild him but, even so, does he have the ability to cover guys without one of his main tools?

I think at best you'll be still training him when his C$1 is expiring. No thanks for a top 25 pick.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Steelers are largely ignoring the fact that college success of technical players can be largely unrepeatable at the NFL level-- or even if you can mold them, it takes too long in he free agency era. It's especially true for CBs, pass rushers, LBs QBs and less true for WRs and RBs. So I would posit that's one reason they are so good at identifying WRs and RBs lately. They're also more willing to go into athletes and small school players at WR but that's another story.

[Steeldrama]

Quality mock Aussie. As for the question you posed I'm in favor of using the first 2 picks on corners much like the Steelers did back in 87 with Rod and Beltin Delton. I think the secondary is Harvey Clayton, Lupe Sanchez, Sam Washington bad.

As for the gaping hole at LOLB I think the FO really should've ponied up for a FA edge rusher. Since Tombert epically failed to do so I'm going to assume at least half the Steelers draft picks go toward the secondary and edge rushers.

[bradshaw2ben]

Let us hope you're right drama but I'm not at all sure they see it that way. I think one OLB they can see being a starter next year at LOLB and one CB to hedge against Cortez not bouncing back. I think you'll see a low floor low ceiling TE, a bleh 3rd day OL, a punt return guy, a RB or DL on day two-- that's 7 of 8 picks. Going to take a safety too. In short they will draft without panic, like hey are one or two role players away from a super bowl and as if all the previous picks like Jones, Shazier, Adams, Cortez, Archer et al are all going to develop into quality players.

[Steeldrama]

It would be boring if everyone shared the same opinions...

Trae Waynes - DB - Spartans
NFL Media draft analyst Lance Zierlein believes Michigan State CB Trae Waynes "carries a very high ceiling."
Waynes, of course, ranks as the analyst's No. 1 CB. "He's a bump-and-run cornerback with the length, deep speed and confidence to handle himself down the field against speed," Zierlein wrote. "Waynes plays too handsy for NFL officials and that could show up on Sundays. His 4.31 40, smooth hips and overall fluidity displayed at the combine could make him a much earlier pick in the draft than previously projected." Zierlein compares Waynes to Antonio Cromartie. An NFC director of personnel told the scribe: "I didn't think anyone had a better combine than (Trae Waynes). He was faster than I thought and looked great in the drills. He's the top corner and I don't think it's close."
Source: NFL.com Mar 29 - 4PM

[Steeldrama]

And of course I happen to have a strong opinion on Jalen Collins who was seen sitting next to Tombert at LSUs pro day...

NFL Media draft analyst Lance Zierlein ranks LSU CB Jalen Collins as the No. 2 CB in the class.
He compares Collins to a younger version of Terence Newman. "Immensely talented cornerback who brings the entire triangle (height, weight, speed) with him," Zierlein wrote. "Still learning technique and how to sink his feet with his eyes, but the instincts and athleticism to make plays on the ball both short and deep are what set him apart. Collins is a work in progress, but his physical and play traits create a very high ceiling if he continues to learn to play the position." An NFC director of personnel echoed the optimism in a discussion with Zierlein: "They all have holes, but Collins is what you are looking for in an NFL cornerback with his length and speed. He isn't there yet, but he has the traits and ability to become a high-end starter and maybe the best cornerback from this draft."

[Scunge]

I am with you Drama, I would love the Steeler to duplicate that 1987 draft. I remember Tony Dungy saying it was christmas in April back then as he was the defensive coordinator and got (1) Rod Woodson, (2) Delton Hall and then (4) Thomas Everett.

I think the Steelers should do the same with the secondary this year. Colbert has had some of his greatest success over the years when he has double dipped at a position. Remember when Timmons and Woodley were the first two picks in 07, or when we got Sanders and Brown in 2010? And in 2012 we had Decastro, Adams and Beachum for the OL. Adams still has time to show something but the other two were great picks.

I think this year we may finally break with tradition and finally draft CBs that we have been averse to under LeBeau. I don't want bigger CBs that can play the run well and tackle the catch. What I want are CBs that have instincts and are ballhawks, that can make interceptions. We have become so enamored with this one type of CB that checks all of these meaningless boxes but can't play the ball, can't make interceptions, and has no instincts. I believe that you can't coach any of that. You either have those ball hawking instincts or you don't.

My two favorite CBs in this draft are Kevin Johnson and Senquez Golson because they have those instincts to make INTs and break on the ball, and force contested catches as they play the pocket of the WR when he makes a catch.

Some of my favorite Steeler CBs over the years have been Willie Williams, Deshea Townsend and Willie Gay. They were all smaller CBs but had instincts and playmaking ability. They were all drafted in the 4th, 5th and 6th rounds. They all had issues that prevented them from being drafted higher. I have no problem drafting a Johnson or Golson much higher because they have much more speed and athleticism.

Over the years I have watched other teams take CBs high that we just would never consider. Miami had Sam Madison taken in the 2nd round and he was lucky to be 5'10" 185, he played in 4 Pro Bowls. They also spent a 2nd on Patrick Surtain who was 5"11" 190 and played in 3 Pro Bowls. Ray Buchannon was a 3rd rounder for Indy originally and then went on to Atlanta but he was never deemed just a "nickel back", he was a starter at 5'9" 185 and made the Pro Bowl. Minnesota spent a 1st on Antoine Winfield who was 5"9" and 190 and he made 3 Pro Bowls. Oh, how I hate the Titans and over the years they always had these non-Steeler type CBs that would kick our ass. Remember Samari Rolle? He was 2nd rounder and a 6 footer but weighed about 175 lbs but man could he cover like a blanket, he made the Pro Bowl. At that weight he would never had passed the eye test to become a Steeler CB. Cortland Finnegan was 5"9" and made the Pro Bowl for Tennessee.

I just see these teams that routinely find ballhawking, starting CBs in rounds 2 and 3 and manage to do so because they don't care that a player is 5"9 or weighs 185 lbs. The Steelers on the other hand are obsessed with this holy grail of drafting larger CBs that can play the run and tackle the catch and then delude themselves into thinking that they will learn to become ballhawks. How has that been working out for us?

This is why I think Butler and Tomlin are ready to draft different CBs as they get out from under the morass of Dick LeBeau these past three years.

[Legacy User]

Kevin Johnson sucks hog.

Can't tackle, can't take on blocks, put on 10 LBS and his 40 went from 4.3s to 4.55.

[bradshaw2ben]

Drama, Steelers also had dinner with Jalen Collins (and Danielle Hunter). I think Collins would be a terrific 2nd round pick value and I might be able to be convinced on him at 22, depending on the other options. I agree with the assesment from Zierlein/the NFL person that he needs some work, though.

Even that positive description of Waynes is telling to me. Potential penalty machine AND a comp with Antonio Cromartie, who might be the least deserving of his hype CB in ages. Actually, Jalen Collins and Cromartie are a decent comp, except that Collins has the potential to be better and is already more interested in supporting the run game/tackling.

The Steelers to my eye seem to be meeting with a lot of guys who might make it to that 2nd round pick. Interesting value buys who might be a little overdrafted at 22.

While I'm all for double dipping at OLB and adding three in the secondary... I think you can get good players in Rd 1 and day 3... or Rd 3 and Rd 6 (Sanders/AB). as long as they get players who can play and then give them a chance to compete, I don't care what round.

[bradshaw2ben]

One more thing about big CBs-- the game has clearly changed. There are a lot more tall and big, physical WRs and even TEs... the game is not the same one where 5'9" Sam Madison made the pro bowl.

Even so, if you're okay with a smallish guy who makes plays on the ball:
A. You've got two of them as potential starters
B. You can get a handful of very good ones on day 3

Hell, you can even get guys with size and speed and ball skills on Day 3, as long as they're not established starters from Power 5 conferences.

In a way, if you choose wisely, those lesser FBS conference guys or superstar at FCS guys often arrive with a chip on their shoulder and no fear. It takes more to bruise their confidence. Just a thought.

[Thrillsseeker]

Great thread. Thanks for posting.

Love the talk on the CB's and appreciate everyone's opinions. It allows me to start a gauge on where I think the FO will go if they draft a CB or CB's. We certainly need help there, and as mentioned in another thread it appears we have a dumpster fire on the back end.

Count me in the group that thinks the FO will draft as if there is no fire and they'll sprint to the podium as usual. I'm interested in the direction of the picks with regards to the new DC. Will he put his own spin? I'm hoping that they start to make picks as mentioned that are ball hawks etc. We need turnovers in a big way. If that means drafting a CB at 22 so be it. If that means grab a couple in later rounds, so be it. We need playmakers and in a big way. Again, mentioned in another thread, long gone are the days where we were comfortable that someone on the D would bail us out and time and time again we witnessed it.

I feel way more like Korky Stewart days are back (for the D though) waiting with every pass from the opponent holding my breathe to see who's getting burnt this time. I hate that feeling.

I praying we get some luck in the health department, the FO does what ever it takes to draft some players that make an impact ala, Troy, Harrison, Rod fuckin Woodson style.

We have our run support safety help if Shemarko can stay healthy, lets get some CB's that can blanket WR's and can make turnovers happen!!

[bradshaw2ben]

you want playmakers at DB? get a damn scary and violent pass rush

[lifelongsteel]

I don't agree with the premise of the OP.

Seems like every year we load up on 2 CB's with 3rd or later round picks and our hit rate is really low. I think it's time to invest a premium pick on a CB and get some one with a high likelihood of being a quality starter. Let's try something new since current strategy isn't working for corners.

btw - i do think the trade down route is more likely in this draft than most. If Maxx is there i can see the saints moving up to grab him. BPA at 22 will probably be a guard, NT or WR.

[Thrillsseeker]

you want playmakers at DB? get a damn scary and violent pass rush

I totally agree.

I'm a believer of the pass rush is where you make your secondary great. I want to take the good to better than average DB's and make them great. Right now, we have bottom of the barrel / less than average DB's.

A diamond in the rough, Rod Woodson style would greatly benefit us obviously but I'd take some Blitzburgh defenders over the current lot 7 days a week.

[Scunge]

Odell Beckham Jr 5'11"
Emmanuel Sanders 5'11"
Jarvis Landry 5'11"
Percy Harvin 5'11"
Julian Edelman 5'10"
DeSean Jackson 5'10"
Doug Baldwin 5'10"
Antonio Brown 5'10"
Randall Cobb 5'10"
Golden Tate 5'10"
Kendall Wright 5'10"
John Brown 5'10"
Eddie Royal 5'10"
Brandon Cooks 5'9"
TY Hilton 5'9"
Steve Smith 5'9"
Wes Welker 5'9"
Andrew Hawkins 5'7"

That list above is not just slot WRs, there are many teams that use WRs that are 5'9"-5'11" as starters in their offenses. For all the bullshit I hear and read about how the NFL is just full of giants at WR, I think that is just a myth. It is about the same as it has ever been. Sure there are some big tall WRs but not to the extent that many would have you believe. I can go back in time to 2005, to 2000, to 1995, to 1990 and show you teams with big 6'2-6'4 215-230 lb WRs as well as plenty of WRs that were below 6' and weighed 185-190 lbs.

A great pass rush did not ever make Ike Taylor a ballhawk. You either have it or you don't. You either have soft hands to make the catch or you don't. You either have the instincts or you don't. Taylor is living proof of this.

In today's NFL you want a defense that can get turnovers, that can perhaps score on their own and at the very least set up their offense in prime position to score. We need ballhawks. Townsend and Gay have been great players for us but they were both 4.55-4.60 guys with limited ability to match those fine instincts. What if they had 4.40-4.45 speed and quickness to match their instincts?

With the Steelers we have an either/or situation with cornerbacks. We either draft large CBs that have no instincts, no ballhawking ability, like Ike Taylor or we draft smaller corners like DeShea Townsend and Willie Gay who have those great instincts and ballhawking skills but don't have the elite speed and quickness.

What I propose is a compromise where we draft smaller CBs that have the speed and quickness as well as the instincts and ballhawking ability. The only thing you compromise on is the size issue and that is not an issue for me or a host of other teams in the NFL. The reason we have been not successful at drafting CBs is because we have this myopic view of what makes for a good CB. It really is as simple as that.

I compare it to the WR position. Everyone is enamored with big, tall, large WRs and yet Colbert goes after Santonio Holmes, Mike Wallace, Manny Sanders, Antonio Brown, Marcus Wheaton. Wallace is 6' but the rest are 5'10"-5'11" and they are all under 190 lbs. Colbert is able come to this realization at the WR position yet won't apply this same solution to the CB problem.

Colbert and Tomlin and Butler need to break free of the obsession of the big CB as it is holding the defense back.

[Legacy User]

I did a review of 5 draft magazines and 2 draft websites and tallied their rankings of cornerbacks. Based on the average ranking generated via this flawed but somewhat interesting method, the composite ranking of some the top CB's is as follows:
1. Trae Waynes
2. Marcus Peters
3. P.J. Williams
4. Jalen Collins
5. Quinten Rollins
6. Ifo Ekpre-Olomu
7. Kevin Johnson
8. Alex Carter
9. Senquez Golson
10. Jacoby Glenn
11. D'Joun Smith
12. Ronald Darby
13. Charles Gaines
14./ 15. (Tie) Steven Nelson / Josh Shaw

If we believe that the best edge rushers are gone by the time pick 22 rolls around my guess is that the Steelers will take a CB. Based on the above admittedly flawed methodology it would seem that the choice would be between Peters, Williams and Collins. Depending on their assessment of Peters psyche / coachability it seems like they could be left with a choice between Williams and Collins. Of course who the hell knows? After all they did have dinner with KJ and his parents. My guess is that will take one of those two or Johnson and another CB in round 3 or 4 (after they take an edge rusher). Personally, I'm hoping they take Golson as CB2.

[bradshaw2ben]

Marcus Peters Rd1-Senquez Golson Rd4 - Tray Walker Rd7/UDFA

is my current pipe dream

Jalen Collins - Steven Nelson - Bobby McCain would be the runners up

another version is:

Steven Nelson Rd 2 - Adrian Amos Rd5

Eric Rowe Rd 2 - Golson Rd 3/4