RIP Tim Wakefield

[jeemie]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/01/sport/ml ... index.html

I always liked the guy.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Undervalued and dismissed by the Pirates, then venerated and successful for 17 years in another real big league city. Just like Willie Randolph.

[SteelPro]

Wakefield was was one of the best feel good stories ever. Carved out an amazing career. And people always raved about what a terrific guy he was. Charitable, humble... all that. His passing is very sad. And fuck Curt Schilling for outing Wakefield's battle with cancer. A private matter such as that shouldn't be spilled in a podcast without permission.

[MJG75]

Kind of shocking news. Sad. I also always liked him.

To be fair, when we traded Willie Randolph, we were stacked at second base, and were during that period of time 1958-1983, a respectable baseball city with 3 world champions, and competing for the league or division nearly every year.

When we traded Wakefield, it was part of a dismantling of the only World Series-capable team (sorry 2013-2015, we barely or never made it out of the WC game each time) we've had since the 70s. A very sad time. And a very sad day to hear this news about Tim. We put him in relief in game 7 in 1992 NLCS, and we may have another WS trophy on the North Shore. RIP, Tim.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Randolph, Dock Ellis and Ken Brett were traded for Doc Medich who pitched briefly then went into orthopedics. Sure the Pirates had Rennie Stennett at 2B but that trade was a disaster.

They let Wakefield go and like Randolph he had a 17 year championship career with a serious team.

The Pirates are a developmental team for real major league teams.

[MJG75]

I would argue the Bucs were not a developmental team for other teams during the 60s and early 70s, they were busy developing their own team during that period. The Bucs in the 70s were always desperate for pitching after their pitching staff from the 71 WS got mostly blown up in the succeeding seasons for various reasons. Doc Medich was yet another lame attempt to bolster the staff. I would agree that we gave away too much of our farm in the latter 70s, but it did garner us a World Series championship, so it was probably worth it. The Galbreath's weren't going to be competitive in the FA environment anyway. They couldn't even re-sign Richie Hebner when he signed with the Phils in 77. And they weren't going to be able to afford Al Oliver when he came due, which is why they traded him for a pitcher (Blyleven, who contributed to that 79 WS championship) after the 77 season.

Appreciate the discussion, even though the impetus is a sad one.

[SteelPro]

Wakefield wasn’t traded. He was ineffective and out of options so he was released. Can’t really fault the Bucs on that. Knuckleballers are unicorns. I don’t think there is anyway to really coach them. They either find that magic or they don’t. The Pirates lost hope he’d ever find it again. They were wrong.

[SteelPro]

I would argue the Bucs were not a developmental team for other teams during the 60s and early 70s, they were busy developing their own team during that period. The Bucs in the 70s were always desperate for pitching after their pitching staff from the 71 WS got mostly blown up in the succeeding seasons for various reasons. Doc Medich was yet another lame attempt to bolster the staff. I would agree that we gave away too much of our farm in the latter 70s, but it did garner us a World Series championship, so it was probably worth it. The Galbreath's weren't going to be competitive in the FA environment anyway. They couldn't even re-sign Richie Hebner when he signed with the Phils in 77. And they weren't going to be able to afford Al Oliver when he came due, which is why they traded him for a pitcher (Blyleven, who contributed to that 79 WS championship) after the 77 season.

Appreciate the discussion, even though the impetus is a sad one.

For what it’s worth Pirates had one of the highest payrolls in all of baseball in 1979. If I recall it was 3rd highest.

[MJG75]

Wakefield wasn’t traded. He was ineffective and out of options so he was released. Can’t really fault the Bucs on that. Knuckleballers are unicorns. I don’t think there is anyway to really coach them. They either find that magic or they don’t. The Pirates lost hope he’d ever find it again. They were wrong.

Ah, thanks, Pro, I didn't recall whether we traded Tim or not. I looked it up after your post, and you're right, he was released. I sort of stopped following the Bucs from 93-2011, too disappointed, like Jimmy Leyland, to face another tear down. Little did I know then, heh. Picked up again around 2011, and have mostly stuck with 'em since then.

[MJG75]

I would argue the Bucs were not a developmental team for other teams during the 60s and early 70s, they were busy developing their own team during that period. The Bucs in the 70s were always desperate for pitching after their pitching staff from the 71 WS got mostly blown up in the succeeding seasons for various reasons. Doc Medich was yet another lame attempt to bolster the staff. I would agree that we gave away too much of our farm in the latter 70s, but it did garner us a World Series championship, so it was probably worth it. The Galbreath's weren't going to be competitive in the FA environment anyway. They couldn't even re-sign Richie Hebner when he signed with the Phils in 77. And they weren't going to be able to afford Al Oliver when he came due, which is why they traded him for a pitcher (Blyleven, who contributed to that 79 WS championship) after the 77 season.

Appreciate the discussion, even though the impetus is a sad one.

For what it’s worth Pirates had one of the highest payrolls in all of baseball in 1979. If I recall it was 3rd highest.

I didn't recall that either. I know they had a tough time with individual contracts. I remember they tried to lure Pete Rose to the Bucs in 79 by offering him some horses. He took the money instead. They also didn't want to appear to be paying him more than Parker, who they signed to a huge deal. They sort of put all their $$ into Parker, and he let them down after 79, big time. They also had no answer to how to replace Willie Stargell, which isn't surprising, you can't just replace guys like that. The Bucs were very fortunate he was on the team and still in his prime when Clemente perished in the crash. We still had quality leadership in the clubhouse.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Still, trading three players including Ken Brett and Willie Randolph for a guy whose primary interest wasn't baseball has to rank as one of the stupidest trades of all time. Even Dock Ellis did better after the trade than Medich did. Even if you have Rennie Stennett you can play WR in OF. Good athletes are not limited to one position. They won later with Phil Garner at 2B not Stennett. Obviously they gave up on Wakefield too soon as well.

This points to an impatience with talent development that persists to this day.

[MJG75]

Still, trading three players including Ken Brett and Willie Randolph for a guy whose primary interest wasn't baseball has to rank as one of the stupidest trades of all time. Even Dock Ellis did better after the trade than Medich did. Even if you have Rennie Stennett you can play WR in OF. Good athletes are not limited to one position. They won later with Phil Garner at 2B not Stennett. Obviously they gave up on Wakefield too soon as well.

This points to an impatience with talent development that persists to this day.

Now that last point I do agree with 100%. It does persist and it was evident even back then.

Rennie injured his ankle badly in 77 and was never the same player, so 2B did become an issue until we got Madlock and shifted Garner over to 2B full time. This because we also, earlier after 73, thought we were set at 2B and could trade Dave Cash for Brett (which makes the trade for Medich seem even more ridiculous). Agree it was a stupid trade, at the time, I was pissed off about it, I recall. Dock Ellis still had something left in the tank, as he showed, and as you pointed out, he pitched better than Medich did for us that next year. I think Dock was traded due to clubhouse issues, and not sure why it took also Brett and Randolph to pry Medich from the Yanks, but they definitely fleeced us on this deal. Joe L. Brown was at the end of his stellar run as GM.

Back to Tim Wakefield for a moment. I wonder if Leyland ever really knew what he had in him. Or how to coach him.

[MJG75]

Nice article in the TRib this morning, remembrance of Tim and his career and life.

https://triblive.com/sports/memories-of ... nd-others/