Interesting decision
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SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — The Trump administration's decision to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census "threatens the very foundation of our democratic system" because it would cause a significant undercount of immigrants and Latinos that could distort the distribution of congressional seats, a U.S. judge said Wednesday.
Judge Richard Seeborg said the commerce secretary's decision to add the question was arbitrary and capricious and would violate a constitutional requirement that the census count everyone in the country.
"The record in this case has clearly established that including the citizenship question on the 2020 census is fundamentally counterproductive to the goal of obtaining accurate citizenship data about the public," Seeborg said.
Seeborg became the second judge to declare the move illegal, so the effect of his decision is limited. A federal judge in New York had previously blocked the administration from adding the question to the population count that occurs every 10 years, and the U.S. Supreme Court last month agreed to review that decision.
The ruling in California, however, differed from the January decision by U.S. District Judge Jesse Furman in a significant way. Furman also found the question violated administrative requirements, but he rejected an argument that it violated the Constitution.
Seeborg found a constitutional violation, which could present another issue for the U.S. Supreme Court to consider if federal officials appeal his decision.
An email to the U.S. Department of Justice seeking comment on the ruling was not immediately returned.
Seeborg's decision came in lawsuits by California and several cities in the state that asserted the citizenship question was politically motivated and should be kept off the census.
"Justice has prevailed for each and every Californian who should raise their hands to be counted in the 2020 census without being discouraged by a citizenship question," state Attorney General Xavier Becerra said in a statement.
California argued that the question would cost it a substantial amount of money and at least one congressional seat by reducing the percentage of Latinos and immigrants who respond to the survey. It said that would lead to an undercount in the state with a substantial number of people from both groups.
Census numbers are used to determine states' distribution of congressional seats and billions of dollars in federal funding.
The Justice Department had argued that census officials take steps such as making in-person follow-up visits to get an accurate count. Households that skip the citizenship question but otherwise fill out a substantial portion of the questionnaire would still be counted, Justice Department attorneys said in court documents.
The Commerce Department announced the addition of a citizenship question a year ago, saying the Justice Department asked for it and it would improve enforcement of a 1965 law meant to protect minority voting rights.
The move sparked an outcry from Democrats, who said it would disproportionately affect states favoring their party. People were last asked whether they were U.S. citizens in the 1950 census.
Seeborg rejected the claim that the citizenship question stemmed from a request by the Justice Department, calling that a "pretext" for the real reason to add it.
He cited an email from Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross to a Commerce Department official nearly a year before the question was announced, in which Ross said he was "mystified" why nothing had been done in response to his "months old request that we include the citizenship question."
"What ensued was a cynical search to find some reason, any reason, or an agency request to justify that preordained result," the judge said.
Judge Strikes Down Citizenship Census Question
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Donnie Brasco
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So basically California wants congressional seats for people here illegally.
What a shocker...
What a shocker...
Jibbs: The Road to Nowhere Leads to Me…
It was basically a political question and I think the Judge ruled correctly. The Constitution says to count everyone and in the past it has counted none citizens ( like slaves) that have benefited only the slave holding states.
“If you see the handwriting on the wall, you’re in the toilet.”
- Fred Sanford
- Fred Sanford
jebrick wrote:It was basically a political question and I think the Judge ruled correctly. The Constitution says to count everyone and in the past it has counted none citizens ( like slaves) that have benefited only the slave holding states.
This is 3/5ths of a good post.
jebrick wrote:It was basically a political question and I think the Judge ruled correctly. The Constitution says to count everyone and in the past it has counted none citizens ( like slaves) that have benefited only the slave holding states.
The precedent this sets is that any question on the census outside of how many live in the household would be unconstitutional. The citizenship question itself doesn’t prevent non citizens from being counted.
People who quote themselves look like dogs who lick their balls
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
SteelPro wrote:jebrick wrote:It was basically a political question and I think the Judge ruled correctly. The Constitution says to count everyone and in the past it has counted none citizens ( like slaves) that have benefited only the slave holding states.
The precedent this sets is that any question on the census outside of how many live in the household would be unconstitutional. The citizenship question itself doesn’t prevent non citizens from being counted.
Either you want a strict reading of the Constitution or not. If this is not to your liking, change the Constitution so that non-citizens are counted as 3/5 of a person. I am perfectly fine with that. They have to have infrastructure to support them and not all non-citizens are illegals.
Other than the # in household, all of the other questions are data for the grist. None of them are needed at all and I think the only one required to be answered is the # in household ( although it has been many many years since I was a census taker).
“If you see the handwriting on the wall, you’re in the toilet.”
- Fred Sanford
- Fred Sanford
jebrick wrote:SteelPro wrote:jebrick wrote:It was basically a political question and I think the Judge ruled correctly. The Constitution says to count everyone and in the past it has counted none citizens ( like slaves) that have benefited only the slave holding states.
The precedent this sets is that any question on the census outside of how many live in the household would be unconstitutional. The citizenship question itself doesn’t prevent non citizens from being counted.
Either you want a strict reading of the Constitution or not. If this is not to your liking, change the Constitution so that non-citizens are counted as 3/5 of a person. I am perfectly fine with that. They have to have infrastructure to support them and not all non-citizens are illegals.
Other than the # in household, all of the other questions are data for the grist. None of them are needed at all and I think the only one required to be answered is the # in household ( although it has been many many years since I was a census taker).
If none of the questions specific to demographics are required to be answered then what is the issue with asking a citizenship question too?
People who quote themselves look like dogs who lick their balls
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
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Steelafan77
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PzT8vEvYPg[/youtube]
“I pride myself in creating discomfort for myself and others,” Tomlin said, “I’m fundamentally against comfort.” [3-24-2024]
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Donnie Brasco
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So what is the downside to asking this question?
Like, what does it hurt to ask? People can always lie or refuse....
Like, what does it hurt to ask? People can always lie or refuse....
Substitute muslim with jew in that video and see what happens.
But I find the histrionics and fear ironically funny since she's pretty much describing evangelical christians and their 'communities.' And who are the ones that go around the world to spread the word of the christian god? Looking to convert non believers?
But I know this country is christian, so fuck muslims, right?
As far as asking the citizen question? It seems immigration is the biggest "national emergency" we have today. All focus must be directed at expelling anybody here illegally. Meanwhile, billions of dollars are being stolen, social safety nets are being removed, the environment is being destroyed, and division is being sown by politicians and media alike. But hey. We need to know who is a citizen and who isn't. And you'd be naive to think that the question isn't meant to be used by ICE to go round up more women and children or to deny money to communities that desperately need it for actual citizens. Sure. They don't have to check the box. What do you think happens when someone doesn't check the box where there is a large hispanic community? More raids, but I know many here like that idea.
And fyi. I know undocumented immigrants. The last thing they want is a spotlight. Voting or checking or not checking the box that says non-citizen will just bring the law down on them. The form will not be filled out. Period, giving a false count even for legal immigrants.
Xenophobia is alive and well. The posted video is proof. If anything is going to bring the american empire down, it's going to come from internal deterioration. Like every other empire that has existed. And the steps are already being taken.
But I find the histrionics and fear ironically funny since she's pretty much describing evangelical christians and their 'communities.' And who are the ones that go around the world to spread the word of the christian god? Looking to convert non believers?
But I know this country is christian, so fuck muslims, right?
As far as asking the citizen question? It seems immigration is the biggest "national emergency" we have today. All focus must be directed at expelling anybody here illegally. Meanwhile, billions of dollars are being stolen, social safety nets are being removed, the environment is being destroyed, and division is being sown by politicians and media alike. But hey. We need to know who is a citizen and who isn't. And you'd be naive to think that the question isn't meant to be used by ICE to go round up more women and children or to deny money to communities that desperately need it for actual citizens. Sure. They don't have to check the box. What do you think happens when someone doesn't check the box where there is a large hispanic community? More raids, but I know many here like that idea.
And fyi. I know undocumented immigrants. The last thing they want is a spotlight. Voting or checking or not checking the box that says non-citizen will just bring the law down on them. The form will not be filled out. Period, giving a false count even for legal immigrants.
Xenophobia is alive and well. The posted video is proof. If anything is going to bring the american empire down, it's going to come from internal deterioration. Like every other empire that has existed. And the steps are already being taken.
Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
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Steelafan77
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Has nothing to do with religion. You're free to keep thinking that to perpetuate you agenda if you like.
Missouri has no illegals; go figure.. shouldn't the other states do the same? Missouri's approach to the problem of illegal immigration appears to be more advanced, sophisticated, strict and effective than anything to date in Arizona . Does the White House appreciate what Missouri has done? So, why doesn't Missouri receive attention? Answer: There are no illegals in Missouri to demonstrate. (And the Media doesn't want to publicize that fact!)
The "Show Me" state has again shown us how it should be done. There needs to be more publicity and exposure regarding what Missouri has done. Please pass this around.
In 2007, Missouri placed on the ballot a proposed constitutional amendment designating English as the official language of Missouri In November, 2008, nearly 90% voted in favor! Thus, English became the official language for ALL governmental activity in Missouri . No individual has the right to demand government services in a language OTHER than English.
In 2008, a measure was passed that required the Missouri Highway Patrol and other law enforcement officials to verify the immigration status of any person arrested, and inform federal authorities if the person is found to be in Missouri illegally. Missouri law enforcement officers receive specific training with respect to enforcement of federal immigration laws.
In Missouri, illegal immigrants do NOT have access to taxpayer benefits such as food stamps or health care through Missouri Health NET.
In 2009, a measure was passed that ensures Missouri 's public institutions of higher education do NOT award financial aid to individuals who are illegally in the United States .
In Missouri all post-secondary institutions of higher education are required to annually certify to the Missouri Dept. of Higher Education that they have NOT knowingly awarded financial aid to students who are unlawfully present in the United States .
It is important to remember, Missouri has been far more proactive in addressing this horrific problem. Missouri has made it clear that illegal immigrants are NOT WELCOME in the state and they will NOT receive public benefits at the expense of Missouri taxpayers.
“I pride myself in creating discomfort for myself and others,” Tomlin said, “I’m fundamentally against comfort.” [3-24-2024]
All the while, the Missouri farmers benefit from having illegal migrate workers pick their crops. Best of both worlds. Feel good about keeping those nasty people out while looking the other way while employing them for cheaper apples.
The issue at the border, currently is not people seeking work but people looking to migrate to the US. Looking for refugee status. Increase the number of judges that hear these cases and it will clear up. Improve conditions in their countries and it will clear things up.
The issue at the border, currently is not people seeking work but people looking to migrate to the US. Looking for refugee status. Increase the number of judges that hear these cases and it will clear up. Improve conditions in their countries and it will clear things up.
“If you see the handwriting on the wall, you’re in the toilet.”
- Fred Sanford
- Fred Sanford
The Real Problem I have with all of this..
1. We have US Veterans living on the street with huge problems and a broken down VA system.. and the American people are fine with that.
2. We have a bunch of illegal fucks getting into the country and they receive free great medical care, get 3 hot's and a cot don't pay taxes EVER..The Left Wingnut's are thrilled this Is happening because the know its a Vote for them.. All of this is on the American taxpayer to fund..
3. if the roles were reversed and they illegals were voting R. The border would be closed up tighter than a ticks ass.. and you would be able to see the wall from outer space..
Bottom line.. America needs to step back.. Fix our own fucking problems first then worry about people outside our borders.. Maybe in their next life they will be born in Merica..
1. We have US Veterans living on the street with huge problems and a broken down VA system.. and the American people are fine with that.
2. We have a bunch of illegal fucks getting into the country and they receive free great medical care, get 3 hot's and a cot don't pay taxes EVER..The Left Wingnut's are thrilled this Is happening because the know its a Vote for them.. All of this is on the American taxpayer to fund..
3. if the roles were reversed and they illegals were voting R. The border would be closed up tighter than a ticks ass.. and you would be able to see the wall from outer space..
Bottom line.. America needs to step back.. Fix our own fucking problems first then worry about people outside our borders.. Maybe in their next life they will be born in Merica..
jebrick wrote:All the while, the Missouri farmers benefit from having illegal migrate workers pick their crops. Best of both worlds. Feel good about keeping those nasty people out while looking the other way while employing them for cheaper apples.
The issue at the border, currently is not people seeking work but people looking to migrate to the US. Looking for refugee status. Increase the number of judges that hear these cases and it will clear up. Improve conditions in their countries and it will clear things up.
They are looking to get a free handout from America..instead of staying in the shithole the came from and making it better, they would rather come and make our country into a shithole like they just left.
Have you been watching the news? do you know how many judges it would take to hear the 100k plus cases that are sitting at the El Paso area alone.. I live in a border town (not by choice) I cant wait to get the fuck away from this crap..
as for the farmers benefiting from the cheap labor I have a quick solution.. if you are on government welfare or food stamps (in the local area).. Congratulation's.. your picking apples to earn that check.. Win Win for the taxpayers.
Yep sorry... just a bit salty today.. I guess I am in a fuck it mood today. along with sick and tired of hearing about the poor poor people at the border...
Tundralag wrote:jebrick wrote:All the while, the Missouri farmers benefit from having illegal migrate workers pick their crops. Best of both worlds. Feel good about keeping those nasty people out while looking the other way while employing them for cheaper apples.
The issue at the border, currently is not people seeking work but people looking to migrate to the US. Looking for refugee status. Increase the number of judges that hear these cases and it will clear up. Improve conditions in their countries and it will clear things up.
They are looking to get a free handout from America..instead of staying in the shithole the came from and making it better, they would rather come and make our country into a shithole like they just left.
Have you been watching the news? do you know how many judges it would take to hear the 100k plus cases that are sitting at the El Paso area alone.. I live in a border town (not by choice) I cant wait to get the fuck away from this crap..
as for the farmers benefiting from the cheap labor I have a quick solution.. if you are on government welfare or food stamps (in the local area).. Congratulation's.. your picking apples to earn that check.. Win Win for the taxpayers.
Yep sorry... just a bit salty today.. I guess I am in a fuck it mood today. along with sick and tired of hearing about the poor poor people at the border...
Just like the Irish before them. Leaving their shithole country with hope for something better. Those fucking micks.
Doubling the # of judges would be something rather than nothing.
Enforcing the e-check would be a good step to stopping illegals coming to work. Who would oppose that? Why the Agriculture Lobby and the Hotel/Hospitably lobby. Americans want a living wage and that is not going to work for your cheap crops and clean bed sheets. Follow up on which states/Representatives have blocked e-check in the past. Why Kevin McCarthy comes up big. I'll bet he is very anti-immigrate but he represents a farming district and they need cheap labor.
Now enforcing e-check would drastically cause food shortages and drive up the prices of the crops. Perhaps double or triple. And the hospitality industry would have to pay even more money to get someone to clean the toilets.
“If you see the handwriting on the wall, you’re in the toilet.”
- Fred Sanford
- Fred Sanford
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Tundralag wrote:jebrick wrote:All the while, the Missouri farmers benefit from having illegal migrate workers pick their crops. Best of both worlds. Feel good about keeping those nasty people out while looking the other way while employing them for cheaper apples.
The issue at the border, currently is not people seeking work but people looking to migrate to the US. Looking for refugee status. Increase the number of judges that hear these cases and it will clear up. Improve conditions in their countries and it will clear things up.
They are looking to get a free handout from America..instead of staying in the shithole the came from and making it better, they would rather come and make our country into a shithole like they just left.
Have you been watching the news? do you know how many judges it would take to hear the 100k plus cases that are sitting at the El Paso area alone.. I live in a border town (not by choice) I cant wait to get the fuck away from this crap..
as for the farmers benefiting from the cheap labor I have a quick solution.. if you are on government welfare or food stamps (in the local area).. Congratulation's.. your picking apples to earn that check.. Win Win for the taxpayers.
Yep sorry... just a bit salty today.. I guess I am in a fuck it mood today. along with sick and tired of hearing about the poor poor people at the border...
Man, you are salty. Looking for a free hand out? I don't think that's what's motivating fleeing the conditions in these gang dominated neighborhoods. Were you to be in their position and living in those neighborhoods, what would happen is that you would be murdered and your precious family with you at the drop of a hat for attempting to make your neighborhood better. Were you in their position, you would not have an arsenal nor the money to afford one and even if you did, you will only be able to kill so many gang members before you get murdered.
These places are basically failed states. If was in their shoes with my five year old, I'd be risking it all to get into America, too. Because my five year old matters more to me than you or your fucking country—if you get my drift.
I am not saying we should not control our borders or have a serious discussion about who should be let into the country. But your characterization is, shall we say, a little too salty.
Now, if you want to arm these folks and send some special forces with them back down to the southern hemisphere for some hawt extrajudicial action, I don't know that I would mind that solution.
Still Lit wrote:Tundralag wrote:jebrick wrote:All the while, the Missouri farmers benefit from having illegal migrate workers pick their crops. Best of both worlds. Feel good about keeping those nasty people out while looking the other way while employing them for cheaper apples.
The issue at the border, currently is not people seeking work but people looking to migrate to the US. Looking for refugee status. Increase the number of judges that hear these cases and it will clear up. Improve conditions in their countries and it will clear things up.
They are looking to get a free handout from America..instead of staying in the shithole the came from and making it better, they would rather come and make our country into a shithole like they just left.
Have you been watching the news? do you know how many judges it would take to hear the 100k plus cases that are sitting at the El Paso area alone.. I live in a border town (not by choice) I cant wait to get the fuck away from this crap..
as for the farmers benefiting from the cheap labor I have a quick solution.. if you are on government welfare or food stamps (in the local area).. Congratulation's.. your picking apples to earn that check.. Win Win for the taxpayers.
Yep sorry... just a bit salty today.. I guess I am in a fuck it mood today. along with sick and tired of hearing about the poor poor people at the border...
Man, you are salty. Looking for a free hand out? I don't think that's what's motivating fleeing the conditions in these gang dominated neighborhoods. Were you to be in their position and living in those neighborhoods, what would happen is that you would be murdered and your precious family with you at the drop of a hat for attempting to make your neighborhood better. Were you in their position, you would not have an arsenal nor the money to afford one and even if you did, you will only be able to kill so many gang members before you get murdered.
These places are basically failed states. If was in their shoes with my five year old, I'd be risking it all to get into America, too. Because my five year old matters more to me than you or your fucking country—if you get my drift.
I am not saying we should not control our borders or have a serious discussion about who should be let into the country. But your characterization is, shall we say, a little too salty.
Now, if you want to arm these folks and send some special forces with them back down to the southern hemisphere for some hawt extrajudicial action, I don't know that I would mind that solution.
Not as Salty today... However... I really don't give a shit about there situation.. It wasn't always that way.. but somehow they let it get that way.. now we should bring them here so we get that way as well.. while getting the life sucked out of us tax paying citizens.. sorry. fuck them.. Lots of worse places.. trust me i been there..
as far as going down there and starting more shit.. sorry i am just a little sick of sending our sons and daughters into harms way to dig some other fucks out of a mess they created..
Look at the these caravans coming north.. if they really hated the country they were living in and wanted to be in the USA, one would think they would be flying the stars and bars yelling usa usa.. but no they are flying the flag of whatever shit hole they are coming from and then chucking rocks at our border agents.. yep good quality people i want to let in...
People need to stop the bleeding heart bullshit and protect whats ours.. and what will be our grand kids one day...
See not as Salty today.. i am getting better..
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fritzthecat
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tighter than a ticks ass. Man, now that right there is funny. Made Old Milwaukee come old my nose and I had to clean-up.
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Steelafan77
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So, go work in the agave fields for peanuts and try to get governmental assistance from Mexico... Then try to get citizenship... let us know how that works out for you.
If socialism is such a great alternative to the evil greed mongering Capitalism why aren't the folks at the border running to Venezuela?
If socialism is such a great alternative to the evil greed mongering Capitalism why aren't the folks at the border running to Venezuela?
“I pride myself in creating discomfort for myself and others,” Tomlin said, “I’m fundamentally against comfort.” [3-24-2024]
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Steelknife
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SteelPro wrote:If none of the questions specific to demographics are required to be answered then what is the issue with asking a citizenship question too?
So what is the downside to asking this question?
Like, what does it hurt to ask? People can always lie or refuse....
The goal of the census is to get a full and accurate count of all people in the US. The citizenship question, especially in this climate, would discourage non-citizens from participating out of fear how the information would be used, or if it would eventually be used against them in a deportation proceeding, etc. Research supports this. https://apps.npr.org/documents/document ... lternative
Also, lying on the census is a crime.
The Real Problem I have with all of this..
1. We have US Veterans living on the street with huge problems and a broken down VA system.. and the American people are fine with that.
2. We have a bunch of illegal fucks getting into the country and they receive free great medical care, get 3 hot's and a cot don't pay taxes EVER..The Left Wingnut's are thrilled this Is happening because the know its a Vote for them.. All of this is on the American taxpayer to fund..
3. if the roles were reversed and they illegals were voting R. The border would be closed up tighter than a ticks ass.. and you would be able to see the wall from outer space..
Bottom line.. America needs to step back.. Fix our own fucking problems first then worry about people outside our borders.. Maybe in their next life they will be born in Merica..
What never made sense to me in this whole immigration debate is that providing illegal immigrants a pathway to citizenship is a win win for everyone and addresses most of your concerns.
We need to cut spending, generate more tax revenue, or both to take care of all of our priorities (including vets). How do you generate tax revenue? Well, one way is to find a new tax base. One such tax base is undocumented immigrants. According to one study (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/bl ... itizenship), this would generate an extra $184 billion in tax revenue and boost GDP by $1.4 trillion over 10 years. Another base is to get rid of church tax exemptions, but I digress.
1. So you want to help the veterans? Let's spend some of that $184 billion generated on doing so. You want the illegal immigrants to pay their share? Let them become citizens, subject to Obamacare rules and regulations. Health care costs should decrease if more people are paying into the system.
2. Illegal immigrants/non-citizens cannot vote. You've been sold a myth if you think there's any evidence to support this happening on a widespread basis. It just doesn't happen.
3. You may have missed it, but the GOP controlled the presidency and Congress from 2016-2018, so it's not on the Democrats that the border is "open."
The only reason the GOP balks at pathway to citizenship is because they do fear that allowing non-citizens to become citizens would lead to more votes for Dems. And that's a sad state of affairs, in my opinion. Do what best helps the country, and worry about winning later.
In other words, the GOP opposes $184 billion in extra revenue which could be used to build a wall, to help veterans, etc all out of fear that they would lose elections because of the new eligible voting population.
If socialism is such a great alternative to the evil greed mongering Capitalism why aren't the folks at the border running to Venezuela?
Corruption sunk Venezuela, not socialism.
Great Post Steelknife. I was also going to say the same thing about socialism, but the rightwingnut propaganda machine wants everyone to believe socialism is evil and leads to corruption which leads to a failed state. Never mind we have plenty of corruption right here in the good ole US of A. Meanwhile, people are flocking to Europe from all over to where there is lots of "socialism" in their capitalism. But when you believe in social darwinism, you need backs to step on to succeed. It's a zero sum game and if everyone wins, there can't be super winners and a lot of losers. I call it an artificially contrived crab effect.
Also, although many think undocumented immigrants that become naturalized vote democrat, the real reason most conservatives don't want immigrants is because they are either i. racist, or ii, don't want the culture south of the border invading and "infecting" white protestant america. Law and order is the smoke screen to legitimize and rationalize their bigotry. Just listen to tucker carlson and a bunch of others on fauxnooz. And if it really is about law and order, there'd be a fuck load more white collar criminals in jail that cause more financial destruction than immigrants collecting welfare checks. And can't the government walk and chew gum at the same time? Blaming immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers for the VA mess is a logical fallacy.
Also, although many think undocumented immigrants that become naturalized vote democrat, the real reason most conservatives don't want immigrants is because they are either i. racist, or ii, don't want the culture south of the border invading and "infecting" white protestant america. Law and order is the smoke screen to legitimize and rationalize their bigotry. Just listen to tucker carlson and a bunch of others on fauxnooz. And if it really is about law and order, there'd be a fuck load more white collar criminals in jail that cause more financial destruction than immigrants collecting welfare checks. And can't the government walk and chew gum at the same time? Blaming immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers for the VA mess is a logical fallacy.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
COR-TEN wrote:...everyone to believe socialism is evil and leads to corruption which leads to a failed state.
Or maybe some people actually learned economics and know socialism is highly correlated with higher unemployment and lower wages. AND they understand the much higher tax burdens, on everyone, in those countries.
COR-TEN wrote:...the real reason most conservatives don't want immigrants is because they are either i. racist, or ii, don't want the culture south of the border invading and "infecting" white protestant america.
Or they believe that people coming here illegally further burden social services and welfare. But make it about racism because you don't have a rational argument to put forward - that's straight out of the regressive playbook.
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Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
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Kodiak wrote:COR-TEN wrote:...everyone to believe socialism is evil and leads to corruption which leads to a failed state.
Or maybe some people actually learned economics and know socialism is highly correlated with higher unemployment and lower wages. AND they understand the much higher tax burdens, on everyone, in those countries.COR-TEN wrote:...the real reason most conservatives don't want immigrants is because they are either i. racist, or ii, don't want the culture south of the border invading and "infecting" white protestant america.
Or they believe that people coming here illegally further burden social services and welfare. But make it about racism because you don't have a rational argument to put forward - that's straight out of the regressive playbook.
I don't know about "most" "conservatives," but COR-TEN's i and ii is definitely true of a lot of people. What you say is also true of a lot of folks. And, of course, all three reasons are held simultaneously by many.
I mean, let's face it, there are a lot of racist motherfuckers everywhere in every country and culture. I grew up in TX and still visit family there. I am here to tell you there are a lot of racist assholes in Texas. A LOT. Of course, there are also many, many more awesome Texans, many of whom are committed conservatives who don't have a racist bone in them.
But I invite you, Kodiak, to go rent a room at a motel in Vider, TX. You stay there for three weeks. And then let's see if you think COR-TEN is simply and totally wrong.
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In 1900, most of our ancestors came here from shithole countries like Ireland and Hungary. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it's different now. Everyone's got to have someone to look down on, and everyone's got to have a boogie man, I guess. I also have some guesses as to how uneducated whites were duped into believing that immigrants were the cause of all their problems, instead of shysters like our President.
SteelKnife wrote:SteelPro wrote:If none of the questions specific to demographics are required to be answered then what is the issue with asking a citizenship question too?So what is the downside to asking this question?
Like, what does it hurt to ask? People can always lie or refuse....
The goal of the census is to get a full and accurate count of all people in the US. The citizenship question, especially in this climate, would discourage non-citizens from participating out of fear how the information would be used, or if it would eventually be used against them in a deportation proceeding, etc. Research supports this. https://apps.npr.org/documents/document ... lternative
Also, lying on the census is a crime.The Real Problem I have with all of this..
1. We have US Veterans living on the street with huge problems and a broken down VA system.. and the American people are fine with that.
2. We have a bunch of illegal fucks getting into the country and they receive free great medical care, get 3 hot's and a cot don't pay taxes EVER..The Left Wingnut's are thrilled this Is happening because the know its a Vote for them.. All of this is on the American taxpayer to fund..
3. if the roles were reversed and they illegals were voting R. The border would be closed up tighter than a ticks ass.. and you would be able to see the wall from outer space..
Bottom line.. America needs to step back.. Fix our own fucking problems first then worry about people outside our borders.. Maybe in their next life they will be born in Merica..
What never made sense to me in this whole immigration debate is that providing illegal immigrants a pathway to citizenship is a win win for everyone and addresses most of your concerns.
We need to cut spending, generate more tax revenue, or both to take care of all of our priorities (including vets). How do you generate tax revenue? Well, one way is to find a new tax base. One such tax base is undocumented immigrants. According to one study (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/bl ... itizenship), this would generate an extra $184 billion in tax revenue and boost GDP by $1.4 trillion over 10 years. Another base is to get rid of church tax exemptions, but I digress.
1. So you want to help the veterans? Let's spend some of that $184 billion generated on doing so. You want the illegal immigrants to pay their share? Let them become citizens, subject to Obamacare rules and regulations. Health care costs should decrease if more people are paying into the system.
2. Illegal immigrants/non-citizens cannot vote. You've been sold a myth if you think there's any evidence to support this happening on a widespread basis. It just doesn't happen.
3. You may have missed it, but the GOP controlled the presidency and Congress from 2016-2018, so it's not on the Democrats that the border is "open."
The only reason the GOP balks at pathway to citizenship is because they do fear that allowing non-citizens to become citizens would lead to more votes for Dems. And that's a sad state of affairs, in my opinion. Do what best helps the country, and worry about winning later.
In other words, the GOP opposes $184 billion in extra revenue which could be used to build a wall, to help veterans, etc all out of fear that they would lose elections because of the new eligible voting population.If socialism is such a great alternative to the evil greed mongering Capitalism why aren't the folks at the border running to Venezuela?
Corruption sunk Venezuela, not socialism.
The problem with a pathway to citizenship for illegals, at least my issue with it, is it incentivises further illegal immigration. Where and how do you draw the line? Or are you all comfortable with any undocumented foreigner being able to come here freely and become a citizen? Personally, my preference is to incentivise LEGAL IMMIGRATION. I'm not heartless. I feel for most the people that want to come here. And I'm fairly welcoming. If we just made legal immigration more feasible I think that would solve a ton of the issues. Right now legal immigration is not feasible for the average person coming from Mexico/Central America.
People who quote themselves look like dogs who lick their balls
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
It would be nice if people would start separating the immigration debate from the illegal immigration debate.
Jibbs: The Road to Nowhere Leads to Me…
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Donnie Brasco
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Laying the Wood wrote:In 1900, most of our ancestors came here from shithole countries like Ireland and Hungary. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it's different now. Everyone's got to have someone to look down on, and everyone's got to have a boogie man, I guess. I also have some guesses as to how uneducated whites were duped into believing that immigrants were the cause of all their problems, instead of shysters like our President.
Because in 1900 this country NEEDED cheap labor and immigrants. We were begging people to come here to fill the coal mines and labor in the fields...shit we sent boats over to come get them with the promise of: you'll do better in this country
And while it was a marketing ploy, it fucking worked. It's a fair point in saying it helped the wealthy more but the worker gained benefits as well compared to what they had back home. I mean the Irish were starving to death..at least in the US they could provide food for their family. Now they probably weren't home much to enjoy the food but at least they weren't dying of starvation.
Our country has matured from a population standpoint and we don't need as many of these people (laborers) anymore. If you want to talk engineers/scientists/doctors/etc, then yes I believe we should expand our HB1 Visa opportunities
Sometimes life isn't fair. Sometimes you're born in a shit hole country and will never experience the opportunities the US provides. Sometimes you're born in the US and still fuck things up. Or your mom is a crack addict or some other shitty circumstance
And thank you 95- yes there is a stratospheric difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, yet people want to lump them together for some political reason
955876 wrote:It would be nice if people would start separating the immigration debate from the illegal immigration debate.
They are lumped together because the incentives/disincentives of one inversely affects the other.
People who quote themselves look like dogs who lick their balls
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
- Deebo referring to SteelerDayTrader
We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States, undetected, undocumented, unchecked and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently and lawfully to become immigrants in this country.
Barack Hussein Obama
Jibbs: The Road to Nowhere Leads to Me…
Laying the Wood wrote:In 1900, most of our ancestors came here from shithole countries like Ireland and Hungary. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it's different now. Everyone's got to have someone to look down on, and everyone's got to have a boogie man, I guess. I also have some guesses as to how uneducated whites were duped into believing that immigrants were the cause of all their problems, instead of shysters like our President.
No problem with LEGAL Immigration... Its the Invasion of Illegal immigrants.. Wait in line do your time welcome to America. Here is your new social security card..
