Tomlin Monday Presser

[Legacy User]

Small Al totally whiffed on several snaps. Didnt even touch the defender

[Legacy User]

Who's laughing now Oline?

I know I'm not. They played below the line. Maybe Tomlin didn't inspire them?

Or maybe they just aren't as good as advertised?

Hey, how aboutt that Shazpussy guy with that super athletic INT?

I hope he works out...despite his small frame and propensity for injury.

If he hadn't missed 6 tackles in the 1st half, he wouldn't have needed the ridiculous INT.

Thankfully no one else misses tackles on the team

Amazing thing is this...as bad a tackler as he is being made out to be......

It's crazy he leads the team in tackles....isn't it?

[bradshaw2ben]

Anyone bitching about the o-line clearly hasn't watched much NFL outside of Steelers games this year.

I don't think Pouncey hasn't given up a sack since 2015. DeCastro will probably be a first ballot All Pro this year, definitely second team, and hasn't given up a sack all year. Gilbert is probably our best overall lineman, and Hubbard played damn well for a backup. Ramon Foster didn't allow a single sack in 2016, I'm not convinced he's 100% at this point, but rarely ever gives up a sack or penalty, and Finney is a great backup. The only guy who has really had ups and downs so far is Villanueva, but even then I'd describe his play as at least average.

Football Outsiders has the Steelers are the best pass protecting line in the NFL. #1. Go watch Russell Wilson play, or the two teams playing tonight, Arizona, Cincinnati, what Houston is trotting out now, if you want to see what actual bad pass protection looks like. It's like a different form of football. Our passing offense has the luxury of a great o-line.

I 100% agree-- which is why I find our refusal to use the intermediate passing game so frustrating. It seems like we squander a lot of good pass protection on designed dumpoffs to a RB or short crosser or throw it early and deep on the sidelines. The playcalls are what you might use if you had protection problems-- like they don't go together.

[14Thumb]

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
This doesn’t mean I think Mark Madden is good at anything, but this morning his article references the fact that prior to Sunday, Steelers were 7-14 in their last 21 when they were favored on the road.

I know we all argue on here about whether Tomlin & Co. is bad against bad teams on the road, or if that concept is bullshit, but how can you argue with 7-14 in the last 21 when favored on the road?

And the talk about this being a “trap game”; where is that coming from? I don’t think Tomlin is getting the boys together after practice and talking about Indy being a “trap game”, but I think it is an indication of how undisciplined and full of themselves this team is. They aren’t focused on the task at hand, buy into the media too much, etc. That is 100 percent on coaching.

It's the heavy favoring that's he problem as much as anything. I'm as guilty as anyone-- teams are just too close to ignore the potential of little details making huge difference in game.

I repeat: We are 14-7 in our last 21 as road favorites. NOT 7-14.

Not sure where you’re getting 14-7. Found an article that includes a table that lists the losses up through last year. Sorry, I can’t embed the table...link below. 12 losses are listed. Add Chicago this year and you have at least 13 losses.

http://www.steelcityunderground.com/wp- ... record.png

Tomlin continually fails at getting his teams ready to play on the road.

[Legacy User]

Ben said Haley wanted to kick the extra point after the botched 2 point call and delay of game but Tomlin overruled him. Ben also said he shot down Haley’s play call on that 3rd and 2 pass to Martavis Bryant at the end of the game. Ben is not shy about taking credit for the big plays where he made the call. Clearly he and Haley don’t see eye to eye. I wonder if the team has the balls to make a coaching change after the season. Doubtful but needed

There have always been the critics that will argue its too late to change now and or Bens window is too small to start from scratch.
I believe we are at scratch.
So a new OC come Thursday is not going to happen.
We look like shit again on Thursday, we have 10 days to give the headset to a new guy and turn this offense into what it should be.

We aren't beating NE or other playoff teams with that grab bag pull and pray shit Haley is trotting out there.

He was on the other end of Ben's (football acumen) many times, now we want Ben to be cuckolded because Haley is what????

A golfer, a son of a coach, who never played.

Fucking dynamite this asshole already

NE is going to fucking obliterate us -- the most unimpressive 7-2 team in history

[LakecrestSteeler]

Many posts on the 2pt conversion in this thread; there is some irony in the penalty. Many of Haley’s plays immediately remove the possibility of running, which completely removes a sizable portion of the playbook the defense needs to defend. As maddening as that is, the Colts seemed to have Bell’s number yesterday. Never saw so many hits in the backfield, shoestring tackles, and failed stiff arms and one on one battles. With Bell’s performance and Haley’s boner for empty backfields, there was no chance we were running on the 2pt conversion.

In order to expand the playbook and the route tree you need a slightly bigger field. So running a pass play from the 2 limits the already limited Haley playbook. Luckily, one could argue, we got the 5 yard penalty and it allowed for a better set of passing routes to be executed and defended against. That penalty may have saved the game.

[Legacy User]

Anyone bitching about the o-line clearly hasn't watched much NFL outside of Steelers games this year.

I don't think Pouncey hasn't given up a sack since 2015. DeCastro will probably be a first ballot All Pro this year, definitely second team, and hasn't given up a sack all year. Gilbert is probably our best overall lineman, and Hubbard played damn well for a backup. Ramon Foster didn't allow a single sack in 2016, I'm not convinced he's 100% at this point, but rarely ever gives up a sack or penalty, and Finney is a great backup. The only guy who has really had ups and downs so far is Villanueva, but even then I'd describe his play as at least average.

Football Outsiders has the Steelers are the best pass protecting line in the NFL. #1. Go watch Russell Wilson play, or the two teams playing tonight, Arizona, Cincinnati, what Houston is trotting out now, if you want to see what actual bad pass protection looks like. It's like a different form of football. Our passing offense has the luxury of a great o-line.

I 100% agree-- which is why I find our refusal to use the intermediate passing game so frustrating. It seems like we squander a lot of good pass protection on designed dumpoffs to a RB or short crosser or throw it early and deep on the sidelines. The playcalls are what you might use if you had protection problems-- like they don't go together.

Honest question: why are those dump offs not on Ben? I swear the guy is looking to get rid of the ball faster this year. Just doesn't look like he's interested in moving around in the pocket. Of course, with no intermediate routes there may not be much to do.

[COR-TEN]

Anyone bitching about the o-line clearly hasn't watched much NFL outside of Steelers games this year.

I don't think Pouncey hasn't given up a sack since 2015. DeCastro will probably be a first ballot All Pro this year, definitely second team, and hasn't given up a sack all year. Gilbert is probably our best overall lineman, and Hubbard played damn well for a backup. Ramon Foster didn't allow a single sack in 2016, I'm not convinced he's 100% at this point, but rarely ever gives up a sack or penalty, and Finney is a great backup. The only guy who has really had ups and downs so far is Villanueva, but even then I'd describe his play as at least average.

Football Outsiders has the Steelers are the best pass protecting line in the NFL. #1. Go watch Russell Wilson play, or the two teams playing tonight, Arizona, Cincinnati, what Houston is trotting out now, if you want to see what actual bad pass protection looks like. It's like a different form of football. Our passing offense has the luxury of a great o-line.

All that may be true, but they were not at the top of their game on sunday. They were lazy and flat. How many pressures did the colts get? BR also got slammed a few times after launching passes in a hurry. The superman throw to AB he had his jersey being held from behind and a pocket rapidly closing. The Colts defensive front isn't great, and Bell had how many yards? Regardless of shoe string tackles.

I do believe the O line is one of the better ones in the league, and have said so since last year. But they were lackadaisical and forgot there was a game on sunday. At least for the first half, anyway.

[stinger8]

Steelers are #10 in yards per game, not great but not bad. Got bad news for the agenda driven haters, Haley aint goin anywhere this year. Start holding players accountable. Josh McDanials is probably the best OC out there I would love to see him hear to see what he could do. It would not surprise me 1 bit if the results were similar to the current production.

5th pass, 8th run, 5th overall before yesterday's game

I looked it up we are as per the site I went to averaging 350 somethin yards a game. Since your claim is better than mine we'll go with yours ( )

If the above is accurate why is there SO MUCH bitching??? It gets so fuckin old. Yes we need to improve in the red zone, no question. Red zone is influenced a lot by Haley, agreed. BUT how about the touchdown to McDonald where he was schemed wide the fuck open and our HOFer did not look his way until about 5 seconds after he had the ball (and then almost threw it over his head). That is a microcosm of the complexity of the issue, guys do sometimes get schemed open, then the LT whiffs on a block, the HOF QB throws a shit pass and then says my bad expecting to be absolved of it immediately cause well he is a HOFer, the receiver goes to the wrong spot or drops the pass etc. We probably have an average of 50 more yards a game if our execution is better (not elite, better).

It is so simplistic to blame the OC and absolve everybody else.

Chef please save your "Mcdonald was not schemed open but got lucky cause a gravitational vortex shifted his momentum and he tumbled to that area of the field and that is why Ben did not see him until after McDonald finished his sandwich AND cigarette waiting for the pass" reply

As a total aside watch Brady when he throws a shitty pass, he is apoplectic at himself, demands perfection from himself, watch Ben shrugs his shoulders oh well my bad we'll get em next time. Different levels of commitment and desire.

[bradshaw2ben]

It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.

[Kodiak]

QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage ...

I think this is what Haley meant when he said how the defense is playing changes things.

Apparently, the ability to be aggressive means taking a shot with a deep jump ball when you have 1-on-1 coverage. Tomlin needs to squash that - the receivers are not defending the interception and not getting separation consistently (probably because nothing is done to set those plays up).

[Legacy User]

It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.

[Legacy User]

It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.

I am one of those 90% folks.

And while I will grant that 90% is hyperbole. But when have we seen Ben so off on his throws? We can't blame the playcalling or the defense winning the play when I see guys dropping passes with no one around them or Ben missing wide open guys. We can't blame the OL- they've given up 2 sacks in the last month. Now a personality conflict could be an issue but that doesn't explain why Ben is missing throws that he normally makes consistently. High throws or regularly coming up short on long throws usually means he isn't setting his feet and trying to rely solely on his arm to make those passes. Could he be hurt, could his arm not be what it was? I dunno, but let's work on getting him at least driving on the ball instead of chucking it up on 3rd and 1 or hitting the TE behind some aggressive run stopping LBs.

If I were to offer a solution, the TE hasn't gotten the ball nearly enough in the offense this year. This offense sorta feels like it did back when we had a lot of trouble pass blocking and the TE became a 3rd tackle (Mike Adams).

I will say that this is the part where playcalling is at fault is its not trying to help Ben out by getting defenses out of their original schemes. Right now Ben looks like he's forcing the ball to Brown instead of having options to go to anyone else but Bell. For instance, how about getting Ben some rhythm throws that involve the TE 7 yards beyond the LoS out of those 12 sets instead of just running it? When this offense was clicking last year and the year before Ben was hitting Gimble, James, Nix enough and early that the defense had to adjust. Then he could get to those passes vs single coverage downfield with open WRs.

[bradshaw2ben]

QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage ...

I think this is what Haley meant when he said how the defense is playing changes things.

Apparently, the ability to be aggressive means taking a shot with a deep jump ball when you have 1-on-1 coverage. Tomlin needs to squash that - the receivers are not defending the interception and not getting separation consistently (probably because nothing is done to set those plays up).

On Bryant's ball, Ben led him perfectly-- Bryant took a detour around the CB, giving up inside position. Just pressing right now or something.

You're right though-- without some stop routes or post/dig routes, the DBs are bailing on those deep balls.

The other thing I'm reminded of by the current re-watch... all the drag routes across the LOS or just barely beyond results in an inordinate number of batted down passes. Annoying as shit. Rinse, repeat.

[bradshaw2ben]

It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.

I am one of those 90% folks.

And while I will grant that 90% is hyperbole. But when have we seen Ben so off on his throws? We can't blame the playcalling or the defense winning the play when I see guys dropping passes with no one around them or Ben missing wide open guys. We can't blame the OL- they've given up 2 sacks in the last month. Now a personality conflict could be an issue but that doesn't explain why Ben is missing throws that he normally makes consistently. High throws or regularly coming up short on long throws usually means he isn't setting his feet and trying to rely solely on his arm to make those passes. Could he be hurt, could his arm not be what it was? I dunno, but let's work on getting him at least driving on the ball instead of chucking it up on 3rd and 1 or hitting the TE behind some aggressive run stopping LBs.

If I were to offer a solution, the TE hasn't gotten the ball nearly enough in the offense this year. This offense sorta feels like it did back when we had a lot of trouble pass blocking and the TE became a 3rd tackle (Mike Adams).

I will say that this is the part where playcalling is at fault is its not trying to help Ben out by getting defenses out of their original schemes. Right now Ben looks like he's forcing the ball to Brown instead of having options to go to anyone else but Bell. For instance, how about getting Ben some rhythm throws that involve the TE 7 yards beyond the LoS out of those 12 sets instead of just running it? When this offense was clicking last year and the year before Ben was hitting Gimble, James, Nix enough and early that the defense had to adjust. Then he could get to those passes vs single coverage downfield with open WRs.

Where are the missed throws? I'm re-watching the game right now... I am at 7:47 remaining in the 3rd quarter and I haven't seen a poor throw yet. He was late on a hole shot to AB on 2nd and long-- which meant AB was OOB by the time the ball got there, dropped a shotgun snap, and other than that, there has been ZERO to criticize about Ben's game. I think he was actually pretty damn good. I'm going to posit that you are watching on gameday with a lot of emotion and with unrealistic expectations, comparisons to straw men that don't exist in real life.

[Orangesteel]

The deep pass to Brown that AB short armed is a travesty. He cannot puss out on that catch. Ben deserves an apology on that one.

It shouldn’t come down to a single play like that, but in this dogshit offense brought to you by Tomley, it often does.

[bradshaw2ben]

The deep pass to Brown that AB short armed is a travesty. He cannot puss out on that catch. Ben deserves an apology on that one.

It shouldn’t come down to a single play like that, but in this dogshit offense brought to you by Tomley, it often does.

Ben even dropped in away from the oncoming Safety, so AB had a play just inside the sideline.

Honestly, Ben has made some pretty downfield throws this year for a guy who hasn't hit many.

[steeledge]

All that may be true, but they were not at the top of their game on sunday. They were lazy and flat. How many pressures did the colts get? BR also got slammed a few times after launching passes in a hurry. The superman throw to AB he had his jersey being held from behind and a pocket rapidly closing. The Colts defensive front isn't great, and Bell had how many yards? Regardless of shoe string tackles.

I do believe the O line is one of the better ones in the league, and have said so since last year. But they were lackadaisical and forgot there was a game on sunday. At least for the first half, anyway.

I saw this too.
If anybody who has watched the Steelers for the last decade expected anything different from them the week after the bye, they just haven't been paying attention.

...and yet, The Steelers AND THEIR COACHES still overcame AS A TEAM and won it for the first time in 4 seasons, so...

[steeledge]

It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.

I am one of those 90% folks.

And while I will grant that 90% is hyperbole. But when have we seen Ben so off on his throws? We can't blame the playcalling or the defense winning the play when I see guys dropping passes with no one around them or Ben missing wide open guys. We can't blame the OL- they've given up 2 sacks in the last month. Now a personality conflict could be an issue but that doesn't explain why Ben is missing throws that he normally makes consistently. High throws or regularly coming up short on long throws usually means he isn't setting his feet and trying to rely solely on his arm to make those passes. Could he be hurt, could his arm not be what it was? I dunno, but let's work on getting him at least driving on the ball instead of chucking it up on 3rd and 1 or hitting the TE behind some aggressive run stopping LBs.

If I were to offer a solution, the TE hasn't gotten the ball nearly enough in the offense this year. This offense sorta feels like it did back when we had a lot of trouble pass blocking and the TE became a 3rd tackle (Mike Adams).

I will say that this is the part where playcalling is at fault is its not trying to help Ben out by getting defenses out of their original schemes. Right now Ben looks like he's forcing the ball to Brown instead of having options to go to anyone else but Bell. For instance, how about getting Ben some rhythm throws that involve the TE 7 yards beyond the LoS out of those 12 sets instead of just running it? When this offense was clicking last year and the year before Ben was hitting Gimble, James, Nix enough and early that the defense had to adjust. Then he could get to those passes vs single coverage downfield with open WRs.

Good post, Veritas.
I too am one of the "90%"

Aside, it's fascinating to watch as B2B repeatedly succumbs to the very temptation he points to by excoriating Haley again, but I digress...

JJSS is a rookie...you can't tell me he hasn't earned - even snatched away from MB - the right to execute the pattern variations he's been shining in, and this only very recently

Also, perhaps It took an obcene amount of time for Ben to see McDonald WTF open because he hasn't acclimated himself to looking that way sooner.
But how is that Haley's fault?!


...Ben might not be acclimated to notice that more quicly yet, but if history is any indicator, he can learn and adjust and react...

My hope is that this old dog #7 still can, and soon

[bradshaw2ben]

Team is totally out of sync, Ben hasn't had the kind of success he could have or should have had thusfar... still statistically the 7th-best QB in the NFL this year, 3rd in the AFC, headed for the Pro Bowl... and 7-2.

But, yeah, he's 90% of the problem.

[Legacy User]

Team is totally out of sync.

Truth


Some of you are clueless. Lol

[steeledge]

Team is totally out of sync.

Truth


Some of you are clueless. Lol

...as if you had any light to offer...


I can't get behind the whole "totally" meme, but it is taking a while for them to sync up and click.

...and then there's the bye-week "speed bump" they staggered through, but *cough* won...

...but then again, the standard is the standard...

[bradshaw2ben]

Team is totally out of sync.

Truth


Some of you are clueless. Lol

...as if you had any light to offer...


I can't get behind the whole "totally" meme, but it is taking a while for them to sync up and click.

...and then there's the bye-week "speed bump" they staggered through, but *cough* won...

...but then again, the standard is the standard...

Tomlin is practically a lock to end this season in top 30 all-time NFL wins, is probably going to finish the year around 7th or 8th in all-time win pct in the Super Bowl era.The 7 guys ahead of him are Lombardi, Madden, George Allen, Belichick, Shula, Dungy, That's the standard, I guess.

oh, and he's great on the road:

FWIW:
Career coaching records on the road:

Bill Belichick: .617 ___ 109-69
Mike Tomlin: .570 ____ 49-37
Mi McCarthy: .554 ____ 51-41
Pete Carroll.: .457 ____ 42-50-1
Jo Harbaugh: .429 ____ 33-44

[steeledge]

I can't get behind the whole "totally" meme, but it is taking a while for them to sync up and click.

...and then there's the bye-week "speed bump" they staggered through, but *cough* won...

...but then again, the standard is the standard...

Tomlin is practically a lock to end this season in top 30 all-time NFL wins, is probably going to finish the year around 7th or 8th in all-time win pct in the Super Bowl era.The 7 guys ahead of him are Lombardi, Madden, George Allen, Belichick, Shula, Dungy, That's the standard, I guess.

oh, and he's great on the road:

FWIW:
Career coaching records on the road:

Bill Belichick: .617 ___ 109-69
Mike Tomlin: .570 ____ 49-37
Mi McCarthy: .554 ____ 51-41
Pete Carroll.: .457 ____ 42-50-1
Jo Harbaugh: .429 ____ 33-44

Well, shucks, maybe he should go back to Tampa and be their head coach!

Would sure turn that program around, wouldn't he?