Fichtner, Sarrett and Bradley let go

[Professor Half Wit]

I want hires from outside the org. I want to keep Austin and Canada...but I want outsiders on top of them. We need fresh outside thinking. No outside change leads to stale recycled ideas.

Yes, Ben isn't mobile...but that doesn't mean you can't have variety in your play calls. It just takes creativity. Use more of the short shotgun for example. Get a RB with speed to the outside in the draft....and all of a sudden you can have PITCH plays and threaten the edge.

There is a lot more we can do so we aren't so predictable.

Count me among the all-in gloom and doomers who think that as long as Tomlin is HC, there will be a "field position," "attrition" mandated mentality on the offensive side of the ball. Until Tomlin is fired, it's all just change of window display at the store front. The stock in the back remains ever the same.

[Havoc]

I want hires from outside the org. I want to keep Austin and Canada...but I want outsiders on top of them. We need fresh outside thinking. No outside change leads to stale recycled ideas.

Yes, Ben isn't mobile...but that doesn't mean you can't have variety in your play calls. It just takes creativity. Use more of the short shotgun for example. Get a RB with speed to the outside in the draft....and all of a sudden you can have PITCH plays and threaten the edge.

There is a lot more we can do so we aren't so predictable.

Count me among the all-in gloom and doomers who think that as long as Tomlin is HC, there will be a "field position," "attrition" mandated mentality on the offensive side of the ball. Until Tomlin is fired, it's all just change of window display at the store front. The stock in the back remains ever the same.

I believe it was early in the 2018 season when I saw 1 or 2 videos by Labriola where he made the point and made it crystal clear that....

"Mike Tomlin gives the order to Fichtner to be conservative or aggressive with the offense anytime he wants." Those were Labs exact words. Labs did not elaborate on how often Tomlin does this.

Also in a Labriola video (might have been the same one) again I believe early in 2018 Labs talked about how because it was early in the season he did not expect an aggressive offense because "early in the season Mike Tomlin likes to play it close to the vest". Again, inside the quotes are Labs exact words.

We opened up the offense in the first half of games about midway thru the 2018 season, I was very happy with how we ran the offense in the first half the second half of the season, the problem was, we eased back on the gas pedal with any kind of a lead at halftime including vs Chargers which helped open the door for their comeback, and then one of my worst sports nightmares....

...our offense Ben to AB/JuJu and with a strong OL had just shredded the Saints for 2 TDs in Q3 to take a 4 point lead with our season on the line, and we pulled the plug on it with 15:00 to play. Ben was playing streetball dishing vertical dimes, the Saints had no answer and were reeling, and we did them the greatest favor they could possibly ask for, Sean Payton had to be laughing his ass off.

[Scunge]

Hey B2B, I don't know if I would count Canada or Austin as the start of a coaching tree for Tomlin if they are hired away.

Austin has been a DC before, with Detroit and Cincy, and Canada with only one year under Tomlin, I guess that counts??

I don't know, to me when I say a real coaching tree I am talking about assistant coaches that Noll and Cowher brought in and they clearly established themselves, grew as coaches, and the players, the offense or defense on the field made everybody take notice. They were clearly hired away because of the talent they displayed as coaches, the results on the field over a good length of time.

Dom Capers was a secondary coach for New Orleans but when he came to Pittsburgh under Cowher, he was the DC and the success of his defense was superb and Carolina came and made him their Head Coach.

When you look at the way Chan Gailey ascended in his time here under Cowher. He had been out of the NFL for a while, 3 years, and then Cowher brings him on as the WR coach, then he starts to supplant Earhardt in designing the offense, then is made the OC and then Jerry Jones comes and hires him as their Head Coach.

You can even look at somebody like Mike Mularkey. Yes, I am serious, he was the TE coach, then was the OC for 3 years in which Kordell Stewart and then Tommy Maddox played decent, and then he becomes the Head Coach of Buffalo.

You come to Pittsburgh as an assistant coach, work your way up, pay your dues and your career advances accordingly. That used to be the way it was, until Tomlin is hired.

You look at Chuck Noll, even at the end he had an eye for coaching talent, hired John Fox in 86, he was our secondary coach and you look at the success we had with Woodson, Delton Hall, Thomas Everett. It didn't take long for him to eventually become a DC and finally a Head Coach. Ironically, he was purged when Cowher came in for that 92 season and was able to assemble his own coaches.

Imagine that, Cowher decided to axe John Fox who would become a DC and Head Coach whose teams went to Super Bowls.

Will any of Tomlin's recent coaching firings ever become OCs, DCs, or Head Coaches? Will any of them ever coach in the NFL again??

[zeke5123]

I kind of count Canada as an outsider. He is only here one year. Regardless, I agree with others -- Tomlin is the cancer. You don't put healthy cells next to cancerous ones.

[franco32]

Sometimes leaders hire people who are limited. Why? Because they are insecure and they can't ever supplant or outshine them. Maybe that is what has happened here?

If you are a young innovative coordinator in the league, wouldn't you love the opportunity to come work with Tomlin? Even better, let's say you are a young black coach who is brilliant. You've looked up to Tomlin as a role model for years. Wouldn't you want to come here?

Tomlin should have young assistants begging to come here. Instead, we have old recycled coaches from Memphis and Arkansas St. At a certain point, I have to start believe Tomlin is too threatened to hire these young guns.

[Kodiak]

Sometimes leaders hire people who are limited. Why? Because they are insecure and they can't ever supplant or outshine them. Maybe that is what has happened here?

That, and there's many reasons why Tomlin liked the older, stale guys. One, he doesn't have to worry about them being poached as they reached their potential and this is probably their last stop or close to it. The stability of assistant coaches is more about laziness than loyalty. It takes work and effort to find new coaches.

And the second side of that sit they already know football. Tomlin doesn't have to teach them. "Do this" or "Do that" they get it, they don't need to their hand held. Sure, they're dinosaurs with no new innovations or tricks. But that's irrelevant to a genius that has the game all figured out. Again, it takes work and effort to develop coaches.

Tomlin has been coasting for years. I think his ceiling has always been a fairly average DC that does well if and only if he has superior talent.

[bradshaw2ben]

Sometimes leaders hire people who are limited. Why? Because they are insecure and they can't ever supplant or outshine them. Maybe that is what has happened here?

That, and there's many reasons why Tomlin liked the older, stale guys. One, he doesn't have to worry about them being poached as they reached their potential and this is probably their last stop or close to it. The stability of assistant coaches is more about laziness than loyalty. It takes work and effort to find new coaches.

And the second side of that sit they already know football. Tomlin doesn't have to teach them. "Do this" or "Do that" they get it, they don't need to their hand held. Sure, they're dinosaurs with no new innovations or tricks. But that's irrelevant to a genius that has the game all figured out. Again, it takes work and effort to develop coaches.

Tomlin has been coasting for years. I think his ceiling has always been a fairly average DC that does well if and only if he has superior talent.

The problem with this thinking is it assumes Tomlin has the power to unilaterally select his assistants––this organization has shown repeatedly that's not how it works. They are sourced and preselected by the organization as a whole and then Tomlin approves from the shortlist. It seems like they get exactly what they want: guys who do it their way.

[bradshaw2ben]

Sometimes leaders hire people who are limited. Why? Because they are insecure and they can't ever supplant or outshine them. Maybe that is what has happened here?

That, and there's many reasons why Tomlin liked the older, stale guys. One, he doesn't have to worry about them being poached as they reached their potential and this is probably their last stop or close to it. The stability of assistant coaches is more about laziness than loyalty. It takes work and effort to find new coaches.

And the second side of that sit they already know football. Tomlin doesn't have to teach them. "Do this" or "Do that" they get it, they don't need to their hand held. Sure, they're dinosaurs with no new innovations or tricks. But that's irrelevant to a genius that has the game all figured out. Again, it takes work and effort to develop coaches.

Tomlin has been coasting for years. I think his ceiling has always been a fairly average DC that does well if and only if he has superior talent.

The problem with this thinking is it assumes Tomlin has the power to unilaterally select his assistants––this organization has shown repeatedly that's not how it works. They are sourced and preselected by the organization as a whole and then Tomlin approves from the shortlist. It seems like they get exactly what they want: guys who do it the Steelers way.

[jewelsongs]

Fitchner was originally hired as a wide receiver coach, and did a great job with Holmes, AB, Wallace, Sanders, etc. He became the QB coach for 7 years, and Ben grew very close to him. When we got rid of Haley, Ben was threatening to retire. I think he heavily influenced the promotion. All of the local beat reporters suggested that, that the continuity was key to the hire. Prior to that, it is pretty known that the Rooneys heavily influenced the Haley hiring.

Tomlin inherited Butler from Cowher's staff. He was kept at a high salary as a LB coach with the understanding that he would eventually be the DC. I believe the Rooneys (Dan and Art II) were heavily involved in that decision.

So I am not sure the Coordinators (except Smith) are Tomlin's fault.

I am also not certain Tomlin is just hiring old coaches because he doesn't want competition. He has hired Canada, Hilliard, Dunbar, Austin, Drake, Munchak, Mann, Montgomery, Whipple, Ken Anderson and had the good sense to keep Lebeau and let him run the D his way. He kept Arians until Rooney decided he was getting Ben killed. He hired both experienced and young coaches, and the list above shows some pretty good talent.

[955876]

So I am not sure the Coordinators (except Smith) are Tomlin's fault.

Yes but the tiny box he mandates they coach from is most certainly his fault.

[jebrick]

Position coaches teach technique. If the offense is stale then it is the OC and HC. I think a lot of it is Ben being the OC.

Tell me how Ben is calling FB dive 2x in a row let alone once on 3rd & 1.

It is more of Ben is limiting the OC in what they can do. The OC sends in the personnel So Ben is stuck with that play. But as others have pointed out, their play planning must get past Ben to even make it in the playbook. If Ben does not want to have plays where he must take a snap and take 3 steps to PA then it is not happening.

[Ice]

Position coaches teach technique. If the offense is stale then it is the OC and HC. I think a lot of it is Ben being the OC.

Tell me how Ben is calling FB dive 2x in a row let alone once on 3rd & 1.

It is more of Ben is limiting the OC in what they can do. The OC sends in the personnel So Ben is stuck with that play. But as others have pointed out, their play planning must get past Ben to even make it in the playbook. If Ben does not want to have plays where he must take a snap and take 3 steps to PA then it is not happening.

So, between Tomlin's box, and Ben's box, the OC, whoever he is, is being put in a wonderful position to innovate and succeed.

[Kodiak]

Again, the plays Ben chooses to run vs. what Randy chooses to run, and even Haley, are pretty radically different.

I simply don't buy that Ben refuses to run certain things when he clearly has run a ton of OC shit he clearly doesn't like. Ben has a lot of input, but he's a long, long way from being the OC in any shape or form.

[Kodiak]

So I am not sure the Coordinators (except Smith) are Tomlin's fault.

Yes but the tiny box he mandates they coach from is most certainly his fault.

I don't buy this Tomlin doesn't have say over his coaches BS. That's true of probably two coaches in the past 10 years - Arians and Butler.

Proof of that is Tomlin demoting Butler as DC, and Butler had been and has been a good LBer coach. Proof of that is Tomlin promoting Fitchner, his buddy. And he's had another buddy on the staff.

If Butler was a sacred cow, Tomlin would never have been allowed to takeover the role of DC. If Fitchner wasn't a Tomlin hire, he'd still be on the staff somewhere.

This shitshow has become more and more Tomlin's each year, and has gotten worse and worse as a result. The fact that Tomlin WAS a potted plant when he won anything of consequence doesn't mean he never got the car keys...and then crashed it.

[Docgil]

Tomlin was the right hire at the right time. You can't win a Superbowl just on someone elses players. As time progressed he became complacent, just stealing paychecks. It is time to move on from him.

[Greeksteel]

Sometimes leaders hire people who are limited. Why? Because they are insecure and they can't ever supplant or outshine them. Maybe that is what has happened here?

That, and there's many reasons why Tomlin liked the older, stale guys. One, he doesn't have to worry about them being poached as they reached their potential and this is probably their last stop or close to it. The stability of assistant coaches is more about laziness than loyalty. It takes work and effort to find new coaches.

And the second side of that sit they already know football. Tomlin doesn't have to teach them. "Do this" or "Do that" they get it, they don't need to their hand held. Sure, they're dinosaurs with no new innovations or tricks. But that's irrelevant to a genius that has the game all figured out. Again, it takes work and effort to develop coaches.

Tomlin has been coasting for years. I think his ceiling has always been a fairly average DC that does well if and only if he has superior talent.

The problem with this thinking is it assumes Tomlin has the power to unilaterally select his assistants––this organization has shown repeatedly that's not how it works. They are sourced and preselected by the organization as a whole and then Tomlin approves from the shortlist. It seems like they get exactly what they want: guys who do it their way.

also you get what you pay for, Steelers pay their assts less than any other team

[Professor Half Wit]

So I am not sure the Coordinators (except Smith) are Tomlin's fault.

Yes but the tiny box he mandates they coach from is most certainly his fault.

I don't buy this Tomlin doesn't have say over his coaches BS. That's true of probably two coaches in the past 10 years - Arians and Butler.

Proof of that is Tomlin demoting Butler as DC, and Butler had been and has been a good LBer coach. Proof of that is Tomlin promoting Fitchner, his buddy. And he's had another buddy on the staff.

If Butler was a sacred cow, Tomlin would never have been allowed to takeover the role of DC. If Fitchner wasn't a Tomlin hire, he'd still be on the staff somewhere.

This shitshow has become more and more Tomlin's each year, and has gotten worse and worse as a result. The fact that Tomlin WAS a potted plant when he won anything of consequence doesn't mean he never got the car keys...and then crashed it.

[zeke5123]

Again, the plays Ben chooses to run vs. what Randy chooses to run, and even Haley, are pretty radically different.

I simply don't buy that Ben refuses to run certain things when he clearly has run a ton of OC shit he clearly doesn't like. Ben has a lot of input, but he's a long, long way from being the OC in any shape or form.

I somewhat blame Ben. It is kind of like the 4th and 1 situation. It is clear he knew what the right call there was. Peyton would've told Tomlin to fuck off. Ben didn't. I think in part its because of all of the terrible press Ben has gotten that he is...careful.

[SteelerDayTrader]

........ It is kind of like the 4th and 1 situation. It is clear he knew what the right call there was. Peyton would've told Tomlin to fuck off. Ben didn't. I think in part its because of all of the terrible press Ben has gotten that he is...careful.

Yep

[Kodiak]

I somewhat blame Ben. It is kind of like the 4th and 1 situation. It is clear he knew what the right call there was. Peyton would've told Tomlin to fuck off. Ben didn't. I think in part its because of all of the terrible press Ben has gotten that he is...careful.

I remember this board criticizing Peyton for that. That's not how Ben operates.

Ben had a championship roster, and might still have with a couple of key moves. Probably doesn't want to rock the boat and get thrown overboard.

Remember all the talk about the QB sneak? Ben said he didn't care, and then Haley said he doesn't like getting his QB earholed. The following year Ben runs a couple early in the year, and then never again. I think that goes right back to Tomlin, because he heard once a QB got hurt on a sneak.

[El Kabong]

I somewhat blame Ben. It is kind of like the 4th and 1 situation. It is clear he knew what the right call there was. Peyton would've told Tomlin to fuck off. Ben didn't. I think in part its because of all of the terrible press Ben has gotten that he is...careful.

I remember this board criticizing Peyton for that. That's not how Ben operates.

Ben had a championship roster, and might still have with a couple of key moves. Probably doesn't want to rock the boat and get thrown overboard.

Remember all the talk about the QB sneak? Ben said he didn't care, and then Haley said he doesn't like getting his QB earholed. The following year Ben runs a couple early in the year, and then never again. I think that goes right back to Tomlin, because he heard once a QB got hurt on a sneak.

I was listening to a local Pittsburgh post game radio show earlier in the season, and a caller asked why they don't do QB sneaks. Charlie Batch said it's because they had a game in Washington once where they ran a QB sneak, and Ben got injured, so they don't do them. Batch did not elaborate on whose decision that is, Ben's or Tomlin's or Rooney's.

[tunch]

I somewhat blame Ben. It is kind of like the 4th and 1 situation. It is clear he knew what the right call there was. Peyton would've told Tomlin to fuck off. Ben didn't. I think in part its because of all of the terrible press Ben has gotten that he is...careful.

I remember this board criticizing Peyton for that. That's not how Ben operates.

Ben had a championship roster, and might still have with a couple of key moves. Probably doesn't want to rock the boat and get thrown overboard.

Remember all the talk about the QB sneak? Ben said he didn't care, and then Haley said he doesn't like getting his QB earholed. The following year Ben runs a couple early in the year, and then never again. I think that goes right back to Tomlin, because he heard once a QB got hurt on a sneak.

I was listening to a local Pittsburgh post game radio show earlier in the season, and a caller asked why they don't do QB sneaks. Charlie Batch said it's because they had a game in Washington once where they ran a QB sneak, and Ben got injured, so they don't do them. Batch did not elaborate on whose decision that is, Ben's or Tomlin's or Rooney's.

And yet Tom Brady, possibly the least athletic significant QB in NFL history, is the most effective QB sneaker to ever play the game.

[Jobu]

I remember this board criticizing Peyton for that. That's not how Ben operates.

Ben had a championship roster, and might still have with a couple of key moves. Probably doesn't want to rock the boat and get thrown overboard.

Remember all the talk about the QB sneak? Ben said he didn't care, and then Haley said he doesn't like getting his QB earholed. The following year Ben runs a couple early in the year, and then never again. I think that goes right back to Tomlin, because he heard once a QB got hurt on a sneak.

I was listening to a local Pittsburgh post game radio show earlier in the season, and a caller asked why they don't do QB sneaks. Charlie Batch said it's because they had a game in Washington once where they ran a QB sneak, and Ben got injured, so they don't do them. Batch did not elaborate on whose decision that is, Ben's or Tomlin's or Rooney's.

And yet Tom Brady, possibly the least athletic significant QB in NFL history, is the most effective QB sneaker to ever play the game.

Watch the way he goes it. He knows the situation, rushes his team to line and snaps the ball on first contact, before the defense gets straightened out. He always has room and is highly successful. The Steelers , in short yardage, saunter to the line, wobble their fat ass package on to the field. Ben stands at the line, barking signals and as the play clock ticks to one, they snap the ball...and then get stuffed for no gain.

[steelmann58]

Tomlin Coaching tree is bear

[tunch]

I was listening to a local Pittsburgh post game radio show earlier in the season, and a caller asked why they don't do QB sneaks. Charlie Batch said it's because they had a game in Washington once where they ran a QB sneak, and Ben got injured, so they don't do them. Batch did not elaborate on whose decision that is, Ben's or Tomlin's or Rooney's.

And yet Tom Brady, possibly the least athletic significant QB in NFL history, is the most effective QB sneaker to ever play the game.

Watch the way he goes it. He knows the situation, rushes his team to line and snaps the ball on first contact, before the defense gets straightened out. He always has room and is highly successful. The Steelers , in short yardage, saunter to the line, wobble their fat ass package on to the field. Ben stands at the line, barking signals and as the play clock ticks to one, they snap the ball...and then get stuffed for no gain.

Look. When it's fourth and no-brainer short in opposing territory you need to run the hard count and then call timeout.

After the timeout you then need to put the ball in Jordan Berry's or Rosie Nix's hands to make the play.

It's such an obvious situation to run a fake that the opposition will never expect you to actually run a fake. Who would ever do such a thing with an offense so loaded with talent? That would be really, really stupid.

[Orangesteel]

Chiefs were down 24-0 last year in the divisional game and came back to win 51-31. If the game played out a bit different and the Chiefs were down but the game was in reach, would Andy Reid take the ball out of Mahomes’ hands and punt? Yeaaaaahhhnnoo.

Mike Tomlin down 12 after being in a 28-0 hole and he punts on a 4th and 1.

Fuck him to eternity. Fire him.

[Havoc]

I remember this board criticizing Peyton for that. That's not how Ben operates.

Ben had a championship roster, and might still have with a couple of key moves. Probably doesn't want to rock the boat and get thrown overboard.

Remember all the talk about the QB sneak? Ben said he didn't care, and then Haley said he doesn't like getting his QB earholed. The following year Ben runs a couple early in the year, and then never again. I think that goes right back to Tomlin, because he heard once a QB got hurt on a sneak.

I was listening to a local Pittsburgh post game radio show earlier in the season, and a caller asked why they don't do QB sneaks. Charlie Batch said it's because they had a game in Washington once where they ran a QB sneak, and Ben got injured, so they don't do them. Batch did not elaborate on whose decision that is, Ben's or Tomlin's or Rooney's.

And yet Tom Brady, possibly the least athletic significant QB in NFL history, is the most effective QB sneaker to ever play the game.

I have read that Brady has studied the sneak in depth, turned it into brain surgery.

Who else has ever done that?

Tom Brady is one of the smartest pro athletes ever in any sport. He thinks of everything, looks for every possible edge, and was a big part of the precision of that NE offense, Brady demanded it.

[Gonzo]

Darryl Drake coached until he died.
Lebeau coached here until age 80
John Mitchell will be 70 next year.
James Daniels is retiring at 67.

The game has rapidly adopted a college style offense. We have coaches so far removed from the modern game, very little young talent on the staff. We have the lowest paid group of assistant coaches in the NFL. And a fake DC who has the head coach calling plays for him. Tomlin runs the defense and he left the offense up to shit assistants who had to be bailed out by Ben. Tomlin has to get the OC hire right.

And that is why this offense is so stale and predictable.
And you know what, if they were running a basic offense and were crisp, clean and methodical, then maybe it would work......but they can't even do that with all their sloppiness, not on the same page, out of sync, etc, etc.

I have been singing this song for years. It is the illogic and double dip mistake of the Tomlin plan. He leans towards attrition but doesn’t preach the prep, planning or discipline required to execute attrition as for it to have any chance to succeed in this day and age it has to be played perfectly. Second he doesn’t enlist the type of dudes required to play to. He seems to want to have it both ways. His plan is based in attrition and the Ben bail out when it goes wrong ... problem is as Ben gets older and due to stale god-awful shit play calling it’s a 50/50 proposition that he can bail us out Again.