Why Steelers Lost

[ToddHaleysNineIron]

It is funny people are hating on Mitch but loved Kenny. From a process perspective they were very similar. Hell, Mitch was probably a tad better (pushed the ball downfield a couple of times). He was unfortunate that Pickens lost a jump ball and that his overthrow was picked (Pickett has overthrows every game;just lucky the defense drops em).

None of this is to say Mitch is good. He isn’t. But it is amusing to get a similar game at QB but the Kenny ball washers complaining about the QB.

Pickett hasn't played in nearly 3 games now, and people still talk about him as if these past three games he had played, it's odd...

Regardless this offense is stale, old, fairly easy to defend. The offensive line gets blown up in the middle, so whatever route might open up 3 seconds is 3 seconds too late. Nothing about this passing game puts pressure on an opposing player... it's almost as if each guy is just making up his own route and it's up to the QB to find the right one. You get wrong guesses like Trubinsky and Friermuth on that 3rd down play last night.

Neither guy, hell nobody, is going to be successful in this passing game.. the whole thing needs scrapped, but they don't have the time for it. Pickett's risk adverse protect the ball is the best chance for this team to win a game, because it's not coming from an offensive outburst even if you had the God Brock Purdy in there... there just isn't an offensive mind in that building who could put it together even with upgrades at each position.

When the pressure comes, and it does... mitch throws int's off his back foot, and Pickett spin moves into the next defensive lineman who has beat his guy. That's where we are right now... Tom Brady looked like crap when teams got pressure up the middle on him, and these guys do to.

Given how bad Cole is, I don't know how you don't have an alternative at C... even just a guy who snaps the ball and won't move backward would be an improvement.

I think regardless of who the HC is next year, you need a modern offensive system and a new center to start.

[SteelPro]

Pickett is not a good QB. He is not a QB capable of winning a championship with. But this team would not have lost three straight if he stayed healthy. Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills. He can do a few more things than Kenny. But Kenny has far superior intangibles. He’s a leader. He’s a winner. Mitch is neither of those. Unfortunately Kenny is just too limited. He’s a stronger armed Chad Pennington but with poorer vision and accuracy. Pennington was a leader too. Just too limited to take a team very far. Those guys can do enough to get teams to the playoffs if the defense is competent. But that is the ceiling. When Pickett went out the psyche of this team changed. They may have not lost any real talent on the field. But replace a winner with a loser.. you’ll end up losing.

[swissvale72]

Pickett is not a good QB. He is not a QB capable of winning a championship with. But this team would not have lost three straight if he stayed healthy. Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills. He can do a few more things than Kenny. But Kenny has far superior intangibles. He’s a leader. He’s a winner. Mitch is neither of those. Unfortunately Kenny is just too limited. He’s a stronger armed Chad Pennington but with poorer vision and accuracy. Pennington was a leader too. Just too limited to take a team very far. Those guys can do enough to get teams to the playoffs if the defense is competent. But that is the ceiling. When Pickett went out the psyche of this team changed. They may have not lost any real talent on the field. But replace a winner with a loser.. you’ll end up losing.

On point assessment, pro. Sums it up perfectly

[zeke5123]

Pickett is not a good QB. He is not a QB capable of winning a championship with. But this team would not have lost three straight if he stayed healthy. Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills. He can do a few more things than Kenny. But Kenny has far superior intangibles. He’s a leader. He’s a winner. Mitch is neither of those. Unfortunately Kenny is just too limited. He’s a stronger armed Chad Pennington but with poorer vision and accuracy. Pennington was a leader too. Just too limited to take a team very far. Those guys can do enough to get teams to the playoffs if the defense is competent. But that is the ceiling. When Pickett went out the psyche of this team changed. They may have not lost any real talent on the field. But replace a winner with a loser.. you’ll end up losing.

Wrong. Just wrong. Humans hate chance. They like to assume action X happened because some human did something. You are describing Pickett as a leader because well he sucks balls as a QB, but he was winning and QB is important to winning so somehow Pickett must have been contributing. We can’t actually point to anything so we will say “intangibles.”

When in reality Pickett was really lucky the other team kept stepping on rakes (eg shitty turnovers in the RZ, numerous dropped passes a la the Ravens game, fortunate spots a la the Rams game, missed backwards laterals by the refs). Add to that a defense that meant scoring 17-20 points was often enough to win, Pickett was “winning.” But those things were never sustainable. Pickett was in the process of losing the Cards game (he wouldn’t have been able to keep up with Murray) and he certainly wasn’t going to put up 28 points yesterday. At most maybe he wins the Pats game but that is uncertain.

You got fooled by randomness and are attributing to skill what was luck. That is by far the biggest mistake people make when projecting forward.

[SteelPro]

Pickett is not a good QB. He is not a QB capable of winning a championship with. But this team would not have lost three straight if he stayed healthy. Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills. He can do a few more things than Kenny. But Kenny has far superior intangibles. He’s a leader. He’s a winner. Mitch is neither of those. Unfortunately Kenny is just too limited. He’s a stronger armed Chad Pennington but with poorer vision and accuracy. Pennington was a leader too. Just too limited to take a team very far. Those guys can do enough to get teams to the playoffs if the defense is competent. But that is the ceiling. When Pickett went out the psyche of this team changed. They may have not lost any real talent on the field. But replace a winner with a loser.. you’ll end up losing.

Wrong. Just wrong. Humans hate chance. They like to assume action X happened because some human did something. You are describing Pickett as a leader because well he sucks balls as a QB, but he was winning and QB is important to winning so somehow Pickett must have been contributing. We can’t actually point to anything so we will say “intangibles.”

When in reality Pickett was really lucky the other team kept stepping on rakes (eg shitty turnovers in the RZ, numerous dropped passes a la the Ravens game, fortunate spots a la the Rams game, missed backwards laterals by the refs). Add to that a defense that meant scoring 17-20 points was often enough to win, Pickett was “winning.” But those things were never sustainable. Pickett was in the process of losing the Cards game (he wouldn’t have been able to keep up with Murray) and he certainly wasn’t going to put up 28 points yesterday. At most maybe he wins the Pats game but that is uncertain.

You got fooled by randomness and are attributing to skill what was luck. That is by far the biggest mistake people make when projecting forward.

You’re entitled to your opinion. It’s no more right or wrong than mine.

[SteelPro]

I would like to know your thoughts though zeke. Do you believe intangibles do not exist or do you just believe Kenny Pickett doesn’t actually possess any?

[jeemie]

Pickett is not a good QB. He is not a QB capable of winning a championship with. But this team would not have lost three straight if he stayed healthy. Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills. He can do a few more things than Kenny. But Kenny has far superior intangibles. He’s a leader. He’s a winner. Mitch is neither of those. Unfortunately Kenny is just too limited. He’s a stronger armed Chad Pennington but with poorer vision and accuracy. Pennington was a leader too. Just too limited to take a team very far. Those guys can do enough to get teams to the playoffs if the defense is competent. But that is the ceiling. When Pickett went out the psyche of this team changed. They may have not lost any real talent on the field. But replace a winner with a loser.. you’ll end up losing.

Wrong. Just wrong. Humans hate chance. They like to assume action X happened because some human did something. You are describing Pickett as a leader because well he sucks balls as a QB, but he was winning and QB is important to winning so somehow Pickett must have been contributing. We can’t actually point to anything so we will say “intangibles.”

When in reality Pickett was really lucky the other team kept stepping on rakes (eg shitty turnovers in the RZ, numerous dropped passes a la the Ravens game, fortunate spots a la the Rams game, missed backwards laterals by the refs). Add to that a defense that meant scoring 17-20 points was often enough to win, Pickett was “winning.” But those things were never sustainable. Pickett was in the process of losing the Cards game (he wouldn’t have been able to keep up with Murray) and he certainly wasn’t going to put up 28 points yesterday. At most maybe he wins the Pats game but that is uncertain.

You got fooled by randomness and are attributing to skill what was luck. That is by far the biggest mistake people make when projecting forward.

The Rams game is actually the only game I felt Kenny "won"...i.e. it was the one game where he showed the most consistency of the entire season.

Just an offhand comment.

[swissvale72]

I'm not agreeing that we lose to Az w Kenny. If he's in on 4th and goal from 1, much higher chance of scoring than with trubisky running his first play. And we likely don't lose the ball on the low snap resulting in 17-3 as lead.

No, I think it's a good chance that without the KP injury, Steelers are sitting at 9-5 today.

Can't ignore the dif between KP's 4q performance this year vs q1-q3

[Orangesteel]

If Kenny is a “leader” then add “leadership problems” to the long long list of issues this team has.

Guys forget how visibly exacerbated the offense was when Kenny was in the game. Missing wide open receivers, spinning like a top into edge rushes, bailing on clean pockets, under throws, over throws, throws that require a torn-ACL to catch, lucky bounces, almost-INTs, multiple poor throws BEHIND the LOS…

Shall I go on? What we’ve seen the last 2.5 weeks has sucked, but it’s only been a slightly different version of suck. It all sucks, though.

[955876]

Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills

Can this really be true given how many awful off his back foot throws the guy continues to make?


They both suck at basic QB skills.

QB coach needs to be fired pronto. As does the oline coach. And WR coach. And HC.

[jmacinwbp]

I'm not agreeing that we lose to Az w Kenny. If he's in on 4th and goal from 1, much higher chance of scoring than with trubisky running his first play. And we likely don't lose the ball on the low snap resulting in 17-3 as lead.

No, I think it's a good chance that without the KP injury, Steelers are sitting at 9-5 today.

Can't ignore the dif between KP's 4q performance this year vs q1-q3

This is where I'm at. For Steeler fans like us, who aren't delusional because of our feelings/opinions for the HC or QB, we were actively rooting for the team and rejoiced in the wins it was producing, regardless of what the stats looked like.

For us, the entire season was lost when Pickett went down, but just started for those actively rooting for the the team to lose, because they think xxxxxx is required to get back to the "Steelers way", fill in any of the many reasons repeatedly posted here.

This season was all about seeing where he could take the team, and if the Tomlin's version of the "Steelers way" could get the team back to having respectable play in the post season. I thought things were setup pretty well for us to get some clarity on that after the bungles game. The caveat to that take was No major injuries . Well the injuries to key players started in the game following the bungles, and haven't stopped yet.

The stats only crew say turbisky and Pickett are interchangeable because of the similar low offensive output results. I disagree and think turbisky and Pickett aren't at all similar in how they lead a team, or in what they bring to the position. I'd say turbisky is pretty much the opposite of Pickett in those important traits for a QB, and the primary reason the offensive production and stats look so similar (sans the turnovers) is because of the weak interior line, specifically Cole. Name one offense putting up nice #s, even those with backup QBs starting, where they have play as consistently poor as what Cole has been providing this year in pass protection. Maybe there is one, but that team doesn't come to mind right now.

If I were a stats only guy, I guess I'd be loudly posting all over the forum too, because things are going as I predicted, and there's now a chance Tomlin might finally be gone. Even though I'm not a Tomlin hater, this season was his last chance to prove his way was still viable in today's game, and regardless of the reasons, he's failed to make a good case that he's been right all these years while rebuilding the team with players that fit his mindset. And the kicker is that he's finally lost a locker room, something I doubt he's ever experienced as a HC or coordinator. Yep, time for coach to move on to another team, or maybe get started with his life's work.

[955876]

The stats only crew

Here is where you are delusional. There really is no "stats only crew". That is made up hyperbole where you (and a few others) falsely accuse others of only caring about stats.

That is not true. The citing of their piss poor stats is used to critique what ails this team.

It isn't about the stats. It's about this team being able to compete on a higher level. The lack of stats is simply what they put on tape that shows they are not able to compete at that higher level.

We all want wins and looking at singular games in a vacuum nobody cares how that win is achieved.

However, when looking at the bigger picture in terms of where this team stands those stats told a very accurate story.

So all of those posters in the "stats only crew" have now been proven to be spot the fuck on with their assessment of this team.

And why we weren't getting excited over some of those wins. Because we knew what this team really was despite some of those early victories.

Sometimes a spade simply needs to be called a spade.

[zeke5123]

Pickett is not a good QB. He is not a QB capable of winning a championship with. But this team would not have lost three straight if he stayed healthy. Mitch is more talented at the basic QB skills. He can do a few more things than Kenny. But Kenny has far superior intangibles. He’s a leader. He’s a winner. Mitch is neither of those. Unfortunately Kenny is just too limited. He’s a stronger armed Chad Pennington but with poorer vision and accuracy. Pennington was a leader too. Just too limited to take a team very far. Those guys can do enough to get teams to the playoffs if the defense is competent. But that is the ceiling. When Pickett went out the psyche of this team changed. They may have not lost any real talent on the field. But replace a winner with a loser.. you’ll end up losing.

Wrong. Just wrong. Humans hate chance. They like to assume action X happened because some human did something. You are describing Pickett as a leader because well he sucks balls as a QB, but he was winning and QB is important to winning so somehow Pickett must have been contributing. We can’t actually point to anything so we will say “intangibles.”

When in reality Pickett was really lucky the other team kept stepping on rakes (eg shitty turnovers in the RZ, numerous dropped passes a la the Ravens game, fortunate spots a la the Rams game, missed backwards laterals by the refs). Add to that a defense that meant scoring 17-20 points was often enough to win, Pickett was “winning.” But those things were never sustainable. Pickett was in the process of losing the Cards game (he wouldn’t have been able to keep up with Murray) and he certainly wasn’t going to put up 28 points yesterday. At most maybe he wins the Pats game but that is uncertain.

You got fooled by randomness and are attributing to skill what was luck. That is by far the biggest mistake people make when projecting forward.

You’re entitled to your opinion. It’s no more right or wrong than mine.

The Steelers were running a literal historically unprecedented run where they were winning despite being outgained in every game (often materially). There is a reason why that hasn’t happened before because it is very likely to result in losses. you can try to say there is this one exception explained by “intangible” or the much more likely explanation of “sometimes a shitty team lucks into wins.”

[zeke5123]

The stats only crew

Here is where you are delusional. There really is no "stats only crew". That is made up hyperbole where you (and a few others) falsely accuse others of only caring about stats.

That is not true. The citing of their piss poor stats is used to critique what ails this team.

It isn't about the stats. It's about this team being able to compete on a higher level. The lack of stats is simply what they put on tape that shows they are not able to compete at that higher level.

We all want wins and looking at singular games in a vacuum nobody cares how that win is achieved.

However, when looking at the bigger picture in terms of where this team stands those stats told a very accurate story.

So all of those posters in the "stats only crew" have now been proven to be spot the fuck on with their assessment of this team.

And why we weren't getting excited over some of those wins. Because we knew what this team really was despite some of those early victories.

Sometimes a spade simply needs to be called a spade.

It is also just idiotic. Win loss is also a statistic. The question is what is predictive of future success? Generally win loss doesn’t predict future win loss better compared to look at underlying results.

As an example, I could win a hand of poker calling pre lol an all in bet with 7-2 off suite. My winning doesn’t mean I’m a good player it means I got lucky. If I keep playing I’ll lose more than I win.

[zeke5123]

I'm not agreeing that we lose to Az w Kenny. If he's in on 4th and goal from 1, much higher chance of scoring than with trubisky running his first play. And we likely don't lose the ball on the low snap resulting in 17-3 as lead.

No, I think it's a good chance that without the KP injury, Steelers are sitting at 9-5 today.

Can't ignore the dif between KP's 4q performance this year vs q1-q3

Pickett has been getting stopped on QB sneaks recently. Also fumbles happen on low snaps. Don’t know why we would say it is “likely” KP doesn’t lose the ball there.

Most of KP’s 4Q performance is hitting a single bomb. He isn’t slinging the ball all over the field. If he doesn’t hit that single bomb it looks a lot like the Cleveland performance.

Mitch has basically performed akin to Pickett.

[955876]

If I keep playing I’ll lose more than I win.

Kind of like Jibbs and playoff games.

[955876]

Mitch vs. PR Pickett

When you take a shit and drop two turds does it really matter if one of them stinks slightly more than the other?

[jmacinwbp]

The stats only crew

Here is where you are delusional. There really is no "stats only crew". That is made up hyperbole where you (and a few others) falsely accuse others of only caring about stats.

That is not true. The citing of their piss poor stats is used to critique what ails this team.

It isn't about the stats. It's about this team being able to compete on a higher level. The lack of stats is simply what they put on tape that shows they are not able to compete at that higher level.

We all want wins and looking at singular games in a vacuum nobody cares how that win is achieved.

However, when looking at the bigger picture in terms of where this team stands those stats told a very accurate story.

So all of those posters in the "stats only crew" have now been proven to be spot the fuck on with their assessment of this team.

And why we weren't getting excited over some of those wins. Because we knew what this team really was despite some of those early victories.

Sometimes a spade simply needs to be called a spade.

Maybe that's what you were doing when citing stats, but when stats are cherry picked solely to back an opinion, without applying any context behind the stats, or ignoring/disregarding other stats and traits that provide logical reasons for a player/team's performance, then I guess we disagree then. And that's fine.

It's pretty clear to me that your description isn't what I was reading from the crew I referred to. When posters used stats for balanced analysis of the faults and strengths of the team, or specific players, then that's what I see as using stats to supplement an explanation for the end results each week. When this was done as a reasonable critique, I'd usually like the post, or add a response in agreement.

[Kodiak.]

Don't worry guys, Tomlin promised "we're going to do things differently".

Probably a few SEASONS overdue, but I guess better late than never

[the-other-burg]

The Steelers lost because our football players didnt make enough good football plays.

[955876]

Maybe that's what you were doing when citing stats, but when stats are cherry picked solely to back an opinion, without applying any context behind the stats,

You have it backwards still.

Stats aren’t cherry picked to support an opinion. Instead, those stats are part of what forms that opinion. That and simply watching this team bumble around trying to gain a yard.

What you and others have been doing is ignoring historically awful statistics and performance because the team pulled a couple rabbits out of their hat.

Meanwhile, the “stats crew” has been telling you that this team can’t keep playing the way they’ve been playing and expect to do shit.

You and others said but but they won the game.

Ok, they did. That was great. Where are they now? Where are they going?

While unfortunate, we were right.

Obviously.

[955876]

The Steelers lost because our football players didnt make enough good football plays.

In weighty moments. Don’t forget the weighty moments.

[Obviously]

Because we suck balls? And the coach is completely lost?

Exactly right. Anyone who can't see that is a complete fucking imbecile. At the very least, a braying jackass.

[Steelcody7]

You left off the main reason the Steelers are in this position. Mike Bug eyes Tomlin. He's completely clueless in just about every way. Roethlisberger and a host of other great players covered up how bad Tomlin truly is at his job. Good news is I would assume even Rooney is ready to move on after next season.

[Kodiak.]

You left off the main reason the Steelers are in this position. Mike Bug eyes Tomlin. He's completely clueless in just about every way. Roethlisberger and a host of other great players covered up how bad Tomlin truly is at his job. Good news is I would assume even Rooney is ready to move on after next season.

When you consider the lack of scheme and coaching players up, that he's won so many games mostly due to having more talent than the other guys....really illustrates how much has been left on the table believing such a mediocre coach was getting the most out of his team.

[jmacinwbp]

Maybe that's what you were doing when citing stats, but when stats are cherry picked solely to back an opinion, without applying any context behind the stats,

You have it backwards still.

Stats aren’t cherry picked to support an opinion. Instead, those stats are part of what forms that opinion. That and simply watching this team bumble around trying to gain a yard.

What you and others have been doing is ignoring historically awful statistics and performance because the team pulled a couple rabbits out of their hat.

Meanwhile, the “stats crew” has been telling you that this team can’t keep playing the way they’ve been playing and expect to do shit.

You and others said but but they won the game.

Ok, they did. That was great. Where are they now? Where are they going?

While unfortunate, we were right.

Obviously.

I didn't ignore any of the historically bad stats, I felt there was context behind the bad offensive output.

With a relatively healthy team to finish out with, I thought we could see the historically bad offensive stats change, and the wins would continue, given the teams left on the schedule.

I also explained what I think is a reasonable way to use stats to analyze positive traits of a player/team as well as their deficiencies, while being a fan of a team. I said you might have been doing that with your posts, and if you were, you wouldn't be part of the stats only crew that wasn't/isn't doing this. If you think I'm specifically referring to you, then you're incorrect, because I'm not. Your forum ID isn't jumping out as being part of what I referred to as the stats only crew.

Everyone can see where they are right now, and where they are going given the health of the team on both sides of the ball, and yes it is unfortunate. Some posters are happy they are where they are, while others like you and I think it's unfortunate. It is what it is.

[Steelcody7]

You left off the main reason the Steelers are in this position. Mike Bug eyes Tomlin. He's completely clueless in just about every way. Roethlisberger and a host of other great players covered up how bad Tomlin truly is at his job. Good news is I would assume even Rooney is ready to move on after next season.

When you consider the lack of scheme and coaching players up, that he's won so many games mostly due to having more talent than the other guys....really illustrates how much has been left on the table believing such a mediocre coach was getting the most out of his team.

Yep. This team underachieved MANY years under Tomlin.

[swissvale72]

The stats only crew

Here is where you are delusional. There really is no "stats only crew". That is made up hyperbole where you (and a few others) falsely accuse others of only caring about stats.

That is not true. The citing of their piss poor stats is used to critique what ails this team.

It isn't about the stats. It's about this team being able to compete on a higher level. The lack of stats is simply what they put on tape that shows they are not able to compete at that higher level.

We all want wins and looking at singular games in a vacuum nobody cares how that win is achieved.

However, when looking at the bigger picture in terms of where this team stands those stats told a very accurate story.

So all of those posters in the "stats only crew" have now been proven to be spot the fuck on with their assessment of this team.

And why we weren't getting excited over some of those wins. Because we knew what this team really was despite some of those early victories.

Sometimes a spade simply needs to be called a spade.

While you're patting yourself and like-minded thinkers, on the back, '95, for being "spot the fuck on," consider that much of your criticism of this team was of the QB position, citing the absymal play of KP8, and often his lack of touchdown passes. Can you consider the possiblity that the team's current slide just MIGHT be due to his being out of the lineup. When Pickett was injured, Steelers were 7-4, in the midst of a 3-3 ballgame and were at the opposition's 1 yard line. Now, they're 7-7, with a fuckin' stiff under center, whose specific miscues, from sliding when a dive for a first down versus New England would have netted a first down in the red zone, from throwing a low percentage deep ball on 4th & 2 while having a guy open for a first down 5 yards downfield, to throwing a shit ball to a wide open tight end on a 3rd down yesterday that could have been the difference between a 9-point halftime lead vs.a 1-point defiicit, to throwing a pick a mile over the head of a wide open #14.

Is it at all possible that had Pickett not been injured that Steelers would be 9-5 and in the midst of a playoff hunt.?? And, I'm not saying that Pickett is accomplished. He has his flaws, plenty of them, but I don't think one can discount his injuries as a major cause of the team's current predicament. Oh ,and add in the mulitude of defensive injuries, and bullshit ejection yesterday.

[955876]

consider that much of your criticism of this team was of the QB position, citing the absymal play of KP8, and often his lack of touchdown passes. Can you consider the possiblity that the team's current slide just MIGHT be due to his being out of the lineup.

This isn’t a good team playing bad because it misses KP.

This is a bad team playing slightly worse because Trubisky is a bit smellier turd than Pickett.

We weren’t going anywhere this season with or without Pickett.

You need to score points to win playoff games. We weren’t doing g that with Pickett and a big reason is because well, he fails to put points on the board.

So while you are celebrating those rushing TDs (pssst I like rushing TDs too) I was accurately being critical of Pickett’s lack of passing TDs which I should have to tell you makes an offense more complete and dangerous.

Think SF would be where they are if Purdy only had 6 TD passes on the year?

No way.

Purdy has 5 games this season with 3 or more TD passes. PR Pickett has not done that for once in his career.

And since you tend to miss the entire point of post, I’ll say it yet again…

I don’t care how we score as long as we win the game.

That is separate from looking at the team and being critical of the huge void we have at QB. Something that will prevent them from advancing so kind of important.

And while Pickett might have gotten the lion’s share of criticism (duh he’s the QB) I’m an equal opportunity hater and throw plenty of shade at Jibbs, Najee, the WRs, and Muuuth.

So my pats on my back were appropriate because I was right.

You can pretend we are some sort of legit contender with a healthy Pickett if you want.

The tape and his historically bad numbers suggest otherwise.

[955876]

but I don't think one can discount his injuries as a major cause of the team's current predicament.

The major cause of this team’s predicament is the bug eyed fuck in my avatar.

That deer in the headlights look he had should have been taken more seriously because is says, “I’m in waaay over my head”.