The Talent vs. Coaching Debate

[K_C_]

They made an organizational decision not to do that

That's where ARII comes jnto it

If elite players do defy scheme, then he's far from elite

I hate to say but I think Ben can only really play one way.

Arians took Ben for what he was and built an offense for him. Haley actually thought Ben could mature/improve and built an offense for this new Ben. The irony is that he showed more confidence in Ben as a player than Arians ever did.

Yeah, having your 100 million dollar QB throw bubble screen after bubble screen definitely shows confidence in that QB.

Uh huh.

Because going downfield with the ball is scary.

[Legacy User]

I'll hammer this because it needs to be hammered. The team has a quality run tandem that draws 8 and 9 in the box. There is no historical reason throughout the history of the NFL to not take advantage of that with play action and at least sometimes use the middle of the field vertically. The last skinny post that I remember was last year when Clank Sanders ran it in for a TD. It was bang bang and happened before you can blink.

I guess that I'm just full of shit huh

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_wJiSClQIs[/youtube]

[bradshaw2ben]

I hate to say but I think Ben can only really play one way.

Arians took Ben for what he was and built an offense for him. Haley actually thought Ben could mature/improve and built an offense for this new Ben. The irony is that he showed more confidence in Ben as a player than Arians ever did.

I promise to make this a topic of discussion on the podcast this week-- I could not disagree more.

[Legacy User]

If the players execute perfectly, a bad play call will gain yards. If the coaches call the perfect play for the situation and the players don't execute, the play will fail.

Unfortunately, we've been treated to a buttload of poorly executed bad play calls.

Neither are true
They can execute perfectly and still lose
They can call the perfect play, not execute well and still gain
Neither means anything and neither negates that trying to gain an advantage by play calling is immaterial

What are you trying to say? That there are exceptions to my generalization?

Good execution covering up poor play calling happens far more frequently than the reverse.

[R_S]

I hate to say but I think Ben can only really play one way.

Arians took Ben for what he was and built an offense for him. Haley actually thought Ben could mature/improve and built an offense for this new Ben. The irony is that he showed more confidence in Ben as a player than Arians ever did.

I promise to make this a topic of discussion on the podcast this week-- I could not disagree more.

Is this bizarro world? run run pass punt and run run run punt don't show confidence in a QB. Nor does 20 bubble screens a game.

[lifelongsteel]

They made an organizational decision not to do that

That's where ARII comes jnto it

If elite players do defy scheme, then he's far from elite

I hate to say but I think Ben can only really play one way.

Arians took Ben for what he was and built an offense for him. Haley actually thought Ben could mature/improve and built an offense for this new Ben. The irony is that he showed more confidence in Ben as a player than Arians ever did.

Yeah, having your 100 million dollar QB throw bubble screen after bubble screen definitely shows confidence in that QB.

Uh huh.

Because going downfield with the ball is scary.

Not what i'm saying. Arians accepted Ben's limitations - didn't believe he could grow into a QB that could effectively read defenses, throw in rhythm etc. Haley wanted to get Ben to grow into that type of player. That's what i mean by confidence in Ben. It was a mistake. He should have accepted Ben for who he was and built an offense that exploited his strengths and hid his weaknesses.

FWIW - all of the current offensive problems existed when Arians was here. A great defense that shut teams down and got turnovers masked a very ordinary offense.

[Legacy User]

Tom Brady threw screen after screen to Welker for years

I guess it's only bad when you can't make it work

[jeemie]

Tom Brady threw screen after screen to Welker for years

I guess it's only bad when you can't make it work

a) He also had Gronkowski and Hernandez threatening defenses vertically...and Randy Moss before that. In the early Super Bowl years, when his passing offense was a little more horizontal, he had a nice running game with Corey Dillon and strong defense. Although Deion Branch could go vertical when needed (re: AFCCG and Brady eye-faking Troy Polamalu out of his jock).

b) When Moss was shut down because of an aggressive pass rush in Super Bowl XLII, and Gronk was injured in Super Bowl XLVI, how'd those screens to Welker work out for the Pats?

If your pass game isn't threatening all levels of the field, it isn't threatening jack shit.

[lifelongsteel]

Tom Brady threw screen after screen to Welker for years

I guess it's only bad when you can't make it work

a) He also had Gronkowski and Hernandez threatening defenses vertically...and Randy Moss before that. In the early Super Bowl years, when his passing offense was a little more horizontal, he had a nice running game with Corey Dillon and strong defense. Although Deion Branch could go vertical when needed (re: AFCCG and Brady eye-faking Troy Polamalu out of his jock).

b) When Moss was shut down because of an aggressive pass rush in Super Bowl XLII, and Gronk was injured in Super Bowl XLVI, how'd those screens to Welker work out for the Pats?

If your pass game isn't threatening all levels of the field, it isn't threatening jack shit.

Ben on average has had better weapons than Brady. I'm not sure it's close.

[Legacy User]

Tom Brady threw screen after screen to Welker for years

I guess it's only bad when you can't make it work

a) He also had Gronkowski and Hernandez threatening defenses vertically...and Randy Moss before that. In the early Super Bowl years, when his passing offense was a little more horizontal, he had a nice running game with Corey Dillon and strong defense. Although Deion Branch could go vertical when needed (re: AFCCG and Brady eye-faking Troy Polamalu out of his jock).

b) When Moss was shut down because of an aggressive pass rush in Super Bowl XLII, and Gronk was injured in Super Bowl XLVI, how'd those screens to Welker work out for the Pats?

If your pass game isn't threatening all levels of the field, it isn't threatening jack shit.

Ben on average has had better weapons than Brady. I'm not sure it's close.

Brady on average has had a way better OL than Ben. It's definitely not close. Brady made a living knitting sweaters in the pocket. A rule was created after a big bad defender bumped into him and gave him a boo boo.

[jeemie]

Ben on average has had better weapons than Brady. I'm not sure it's close.

Not since Moss and Gronk/Hernandez/Welker, he hasn't.

And as pointed out, Brady had a better O-line...and it just wasn't Brady "making the O-line better".

[lifelongsteel]

Ben on average has had better weapons than Brady. I'm not sure it's close.

Not since Moss and Gronk/Hernandez/Welker, he hasn't.

And as pointed out, Brady had a better O-line...and it just wasn't Brady "making the O-line better".

Agree to disagree. Ben has had better talent over the past 5 years too. Brady has prob had a better O line. but it also helps that he can deliver the ball quickly and in rhythm.

[bradshaw2ben]

Look at Brady's three TEs plus Welker/Edelman. NE's receiving position talent over the past few years is light years better than the Steelers, particularly in scoring threats... and I don't even think NE's is so great these days.

Our group is horrid beyond AB and an outclassed Heath Miller.

[lifelongsteel]

Look at Brady's three TEs plus Welker/Edelman. NE's receiving position talent over the past few years is light years better than the Steelers, particularly in scoring threats... and I don't even think NE's is so great these days.

Our group is horrid beyond AB and an outclassed Heath Miller.

How many games have Gronk/Hernandez played together?

Edelman? Welker was a nobody until he played with Brady.

[Legacy User]

I'm picturing a bunch of people sitting around in dark glasses crying and saying "that's my QB man, that's my QB your talking about"

[Legacy User]

I'm picturing a bunch of people sitting around in dark glasses crying and saying "that's my QB man, that's my QB your talking about"

Perhaps and if you substitute coach or potted plant for QB, well that would be you.

[USS Steelerworks]

I refuse to believe the Steelers lack in both coaching and talent. If the Steelers were truly deficient in both areas this would not be a team with a record of 19-19 in it's last 38 games. It would be a team like the Oakland Raiders or Jacksonville Jaguars and have a 10-28 record instead the last 2+ seasons.

IMO if the team truly has bad talent then the coaching staff is doing a remarkable job in getting it prepared to compete in every game and muster out a .500 record. If the team has a decent talent then the opposite is true. I don't think you can have it both ways. The league is too competitive for a team lacking in both areas to have a .500 record.

[Legacy User]

I refuse to believe the Steelers lack in both coaching and talent. If the Steelers were truly deficient in both areas this would not be a team with a record of 19-19 in it's last 38 games. It would be a team like the Oakland Raiders or Jacksonville Jaguars and have a 10-28 record instead the last 2+ seasons.

IMO if the team truly has bad talent then the coaching staff is doing a remarkable job in getting it prepared to compete in every game and muster out a .500 record. If the team has a decent talent then the opposite is true. I don't think you can have it both ways. The league is too competitive for a team lacking in both areas to have a .500 record.

That's crazy talk. A .500 record is worse than terrible.

[Legacy User]

Why do any of you give a shit if Brady's better? I don't give a rat's ass. What I care about is having an offense that maximizes Ben's strengths.

I surely hope no one is arguing that we shouldn't get Ben better weapons because he should be good enough to not need them. That is some next level retarded shit.

Brees gets to have a Graham.

Brady gets to have a Gronk.

Why can't Ben have an RZ weapon that makes DBs and LBs shit themselves?

[Ice]

Why do any of you give a shit if Brady's better? I don't give a rat's ass. What I care about is having an offense that maximizes Ben's strengths.

I surely hope no one is arguing that we shouldn't get Ben better weapons because he should be good enough to not need them. That is some next level retarded shit.

Brees gets to have a Graham.

Brady gets to have a Gronk.

Why can't Ben have an RZ weapon that makes DBs and LBs shit themselves?

Because management is either unwilling to or incapable of acquiring one.

[Legacy User]

Why do any of you give a shit if Brady's better? I don't give a rat's ass. What I care about is having an offense that maximizes Ben's strengths.

I surely hope no one is arguing that we shouldn't get Ben better weapons because he should be good enough to not need them. That is some next level retarded shit.

Brees gets to have a Graham.

Brady gets to have a Gronk.

Why can't Ben have an RZ weapon that makes DBs and LBs shit themselves?

Because management is either unwilling to or incapable of acquiring one.

It was, admittedly, a rhetorical question. The main point of emphasis is the sheer stupidity of arguing that Ben doesn't need better weapons because he's Ben. Not that anyone has outright embraced this, but some have come close.

AB is one of the best in the league. Bell looks like a stud. I don't care. Get Ben more. Anyone who argues otherwise is a moron because they don't want the best possible team. With AB, Bell, and TD machine TE like Graham, holy shit.

I don't care if Brady doesn't need such weapons (nor am I conceding that Brady can do well without such weapons). Why should I?

[Ice]

I agree. A decent 2nd receiver (hope Wheaton develops, but who knows, at this point) would help, too. The 90s Bills got away with two great receivers that complemented each other and a great all - around RB surrounding Kelly, turning guys like Keith McKeller and Pete Metzellars into productive players at TE. One more guy in the passing game to be a threat would make it good, two would be wow.

[lifelongsteel]

Why do any of you give a shit if Brady's better? I don't give a rat's ass. What I care about is having an offense that maximizes Ben's strengths.

I surely hope no one is arguing that we shouldn't get Ben better weapons because he should be good enough to not need them. That is some next level retarded shit.

Brees gets to have a Graham.

Brady gets to have a Gronk.

Why can't Ben have an RZ weapon that makes DBs and LBs shit themselves?

Because management is either unwilling to or incapable of acquiring one.

It was, admittedly, a rhetorical question. The main point of emphasis is the sheer stupidity of arguing that Ben doesn't need better weapons because he's Ben. Not that anyone has outright embraced this, but some have come close.

AB is one of the best in the league. Bell looks like a stud. I don't care. Get Ben more. Anyone who argues otherwise is a moron because they don't want the best possible team. With AB, Bell, and TD machine TE like Graham, holy shit.

I don't care if Brady doesn't need such weapons (nor am I conceding that Brady can do well without such weapons). Why should I?

The argument consistently made by a number of poasters is that Ben does not have and has not had the weapons to be successful. The counter is that his weapons are every bit as good as guys who have lesser weapons but consistently put up more points. That's how Brady got inserted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wouldn't be nice to have even better weapons.

That said, if i could add 3 players to improve this team I'd go DE, OLB, CB. Worrying about weapons right now is deck chair rearranging.

[Legacy User]

The argument consistently made by a number of poasters is that Ben does not have and has not had the weapons to be successful. The counter is that his weapons are every bit as good as guys who have lesser weapons but consistently put up more points. That's how Brady got inserted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wouldn't be nice to have even better weapons.

That said, if i could add 3 players to improve this team I'd go DE, OLB, CB. Worrying about weapons right now is deck chair rearranging.

Seems to me that when Ben has had multiple weapons, he's been pretty deadly. Right now he has AB and nothing else. Prior he's had multiple threats. The prime Ward and Miller years were thrill rides. Miller Ward Holmes, well, we know how that worked out. Wallace (for a bit), AB, Sanders, that was nice.

Heath is still the man, but he's broken down. No other receiver has stepped up besides Brown.

His weapons now are besides AB are meh.

It hasn't helped that Ben has played like shit the past two games. Dude's a baller, though. Hoping we have a Brady against the world Monday night type night as Brady did against the Bengals.

But this ship is on a bad trajectory and it is not going to be fixed overnight.

[Legacy User]

I'm picturing a bunch of people sitting around in dark glasses crying and saying "that's my QB man, that's my QB your talking about"

Perhaps and if you substitute coach or potted plant for QB, well that would be you.

Your are confusing putting responsibility on a franchise QB with defending any coach

You've cried yourself to he point that it's either or

It's both

[K_C_]

The argument consistently made by a number of poasters is that Ben does not have and has not had the weapons to be successful. The counter is that his weapons are every bit as good as guys who have lesser weapons but consistently put up more points. That's how Brady got inserted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wouldn't be nice to have even better weapons.

That said, if i could add 3 players to improve this team I'd go DE, OLB, CB. Worrying about weapons right now is deck chair rearranging.

Seems to me that when Ben has had multiple weapons, he's been pretty deadly. Right now he has AB and nothing else. Prior he's had multiple threats. The prime Ward and Miller years were thrill rides. Miller Ward Holmes, well, we know how that worked out. Wallace (for a bit), AB, Sanders, that was nice.

Heath is still the man, but he's broken down. No other receiver has stepped up besides Brown.

His weapons now are besides AB are meh.

Check out Bouchette's chat and his opinion on the biggest free agency loss from last year.

[lifelongsteel]

The argument consistently made by a number of poasters is that Ben does not have and has not had the weapons to be successful. The counter is that his weapons are every bit as good as guys who have lesser weapons but consistently put up more points. That's how Brady got inserted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wouldn't be nice to have even better weapons.

That said, if i could add 3 players to improve this team I'd go DE, OLB, CB. Worrying about weapons right now is deck chair rearranging.

Seems to me that when Ben has had multiple weapons, he's been pretty deadly. Right now he has AB and nothing else. Prior he's had multiple threats. The prime Ward and Miller years were thrill rides. Miller Ward Holmes, well, we know how that worked out. Wallace (for a bit), AB, Sanders, that was nice.

Heath is still the man, but he's broken down. No other receiver has stepped up besides Brown.

His weapons now are besides AB are meh.

It hasn't helped that Ben has played like shit the past two games. Dude's a baller, though. Hoping we have a Brady against the world Monday night type night as Brady did against the Bengals.

But this ship is on a bad trajectory and it is not going to be fixed overnight.

Mostly agree. There is plenty of blame and room for improvement to go around. I do think that Brown-Bell-Miller as a top WR-RB-TE is good enough to win with. Beyond that we're horrible right now.

[Legacy User]

The argument consistently made by a number of poasters is that Ben does not have and has not had the weapons to be successful. The counter is that his weapons are every bit as good as guys who have lesser weapons but consistently put up more points. That's how Brady got inserted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wouldn't be nice to have even better weapons.

That said, if i could add 3 players to improve this team I'd go DE, OLB, CB. Worrying about weapons right now is deck chair rearranging.

Seems to me that when Ben has had multiple weapons, he's been pretty deadly. Right now he has AB and nothing else. Prior he's had multiple threats. The prime Ward and Miller years were thrill rides. Miller Ward Holmes, well, we know how that worked out. Wallace (for a bit), AB, Sanders, that was nice.

Heath is still the man, but he's broken down. No other receiver has stepped up besides Brown.

His weapons now are besides AB are meh.

It hasn't helped that Ben has played like shit the past two games. Dude's a baller, though. Hoping we have a Brady against the world Monday night type night as Brady did against the Bengals.

But this ship is on a bad trajectory and it is not going to be fixed overnight.

Mostly agree. There is plenty of blame and room for improvement to go around. I do think that Brown-Bell-Miller as a top WR-RB-TE is good enough to win with. Beyond that we're horrible right now.

Free Martavis.

[K_C_]

Scott: After Keenan Lewis, who was the biggest free agency loss in the last two years: Wallace, Sanders, or Cotchery?

Ed Bouchette: Cotchery and his 10 touchdowns and his ability inside the red zone. They should not have let him get away.

[Legacy User]

Scott: After Keenan Lewis, who was the biggest free agency loss in the last two years: Wallace, Sanders, or Cotchery?

Ed Bouchette: Cotchery and his 10 touchdowns and his ability inside the red zone. They should not have let him get away.

Ha ha. I honestly forgot about Cotch! Shit, man!