Jesse James Catch vs Ertz Catch

[lifelongsteel]

Pretty sure metaphysical certainty is not the bar for overturning a call.

.

You're right- it says VIDEO EVIDENCE. Which there is NONE.

Again I implore you to find an angle where the ball and grass meet. You can't and no one else can.

It's not that difficult to grasp... surprising as you are an uber logician

Here's what I think happened. The ref saw the ball hit the ground but wasn't thinking about "survive the ground" rule at the time. Called TD. They then reviewed specific to the "survive the ground" rule. When they determined that James wasn't a runner and was thus subject to this asinine rule, they didn't bother to check whether the ball hit the ground as the ref had seen it.

Either that or they got lost in the moment and didn't bother to properly review the play. Or there is a big conspiracy against the wildly popular steelers in favor of the wildly unpopular Patriots.

[Stallworth16]

The Survive The Ground Rule is a piece of horseshit and the cause of overturned catches that would have affected the outcome of big games, such as the Outlaw catch, Dez catch, and Megatron catch.

It's not a good rule and Nobody (except maybe the owners who created it?) likes it. It will be changed this off-season.

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-st ... -114369943

[Legacy User]

Get rid of replay and call it on the field.

[jeemie]

Pretty sure metaphysical certainty is not the bar for overturning a call.

.

You're right- it says VIDEO EVIDENCE. Which there is NONE.

Again I implore you to find an angle where the ball and grass meet. You can't and no one else can.

It's not that difficult to grasp... surprising as you are an uber logician

Here's what I think happened. The ref saw the ball hit the ground but wasn't thinking about "survive the ground" rule at the time. Called TD. They then reviewed specific to the "survive the ground" rule. When they determined that James wasn't a runner and was thus subject to this asinine rule, they didn't bother to check whether the ball hit the ground as the ref had seen it.

Either that or they got lost in the moment and didn't bother to properly review the play. Or there is a big conspiracy against the wildly popular steelers in favor of the wildly unpopular Patriots.

They reviewed the play for three and a half minutes. They didn’t miss out on anything.

[jeemie]

Get rid of replay and call it on the field.

There’s nothing wrong with replay of the original intent of replay is properly understood and followed...which is to overturn obvious errors like Mel Renfro in the AFCCG.

The problem is when they study a replay for 10 minutes frame by frame looking for the tiniest thing.

[Jobu]

Get rid of replay and call it on the field.

This cannot be said enough.

[Legacy User]

Get rid of replay and call it on the field.

This cannot be said enough.

This cannot be argued with enough. As Jeemie said, there should be replay for the most egregious of errors, we just need to get rid of the nit picking.

[Flanker]

You can't GUESS it touched grass because you think James fingers are too small. You can't be 99.9% sure.

in·dis·put·a·ble

unable to be challenged or denied



Is it not unable to be challenged or denied that human fingers are not long enough to prevent the bottom third of the ball from contacting the ground? I dont think you need to see the ball touchng the ground in this situation if you use common sense... In my opinion it is indisputable that the ball touched the ground.

I think we all know the ball touched the ground.

[franco32]

You can absolutely challenge the assertion that the ball hit the ground. You have to see pigskin touch grass -- without fingers underneath -- otherwise you can't overturn it. It's that simple. If you don't think that is a good standard, then take it up with the NFL.

By the way, I think it is more likely than not that the ball DID hit the ground. But, based on the video, I can't say that with absolute certainty. Call should have stood. If not, why have a rule book?

[jeemie]

You can absolutely challenge the assertion that the ball hit the ground. You have to see pigskin touch grass -- without fingers underneath -- otherwise you can't overturn it. It's that simple. If you don't think that is a good standard, then take it up with the NFL.

By the way, I think it is more likely than not that the ball DID hit the ground. But, based on the video, I can't say that with absolute certainty. Call should have stood. If not, why have a rule book?

Dude...the tip of the football touched the ground...was clear from the video.

And unless Jesse James has hugely deformed ring and pinky fingers, he wasn’t holding it.

Just stop it, OK?

[franco32]

It's not clear from the video at all. You have to be Superman with x-ray vision to see through James forearm. I'm not. The very fact we are having this discussion...two reasonable posters...is proof that there was not indisputable evidence.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[jeemie]

It's not clear from the video at all. You have to be Superman with x-ray vision to see through James forearm. I'm not. The very fact we are having this discussion...two reasonable posters...is proof that there was not indisputable evidence.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

One of the reasonable posters is looking at the evidence with homer glasses on...

https://goo.gl/images/EWYKAy

[Flanker]

If you don't think that is a good standard, then take it up with the NFL.

Actually, in reality... YOU need to take it up with the NFL as they ruled it incomplete which anyone with vision and a non-bias opinion would agree with.

The ball touched the ground bro get over it.

[Suwanee88]

They need to simplify the rule.

Once the ball breaks the goal line it’s a touchdown PERIOD. That’s a runner or a receiver. It’s instantaneous. Example- James scores in that scenario. So does the Eagles player. It’s seems like a simple solution unless I am missing something.

[swissvale72]

They need to simplify the rule.

Once the ball breaks the goal line it’s a touchdown PERIOD. That’s a runner or a receiver. It’s instantaneous. Example- James scores in that scenario. So does the Eagles player. It’s seems like a simple solution unless I am missing something.

That...AND....two feet in, ball never hits ground, it's a catch. No more of this bullshit of whether ball moves a millimeter.

[Legacy User]

One of the reasonable posters is looking at the evidence with homer glasses on...

Agreed.

But it was such a heart-breaking play.

28 seconds left.

The money was paid, the groceries were bagged, and we were headed out the door with the kids to the minivan.

And then the security alarm went off.

Another frustrating aspect for me is that his elbow looks to be down at the goal line with the ball at or over the line and he still had control at that point.

Gah! What a shitty end to the season not to have another crack at those bastards.

[jeemie]

They need to simplify the rule.

Once the ball breaks the goal line it’s a touchdown PERIOD. That’s a runner or a receiver. It’s instantaneous. Example- James scores in that scenario. So does the Eagles player. It’s seems like a simple solution unless I am missing something.

That...AND....two feet in, ball never hits ground, it's a catch. No more of this bullshit of whether ball moves a millimeter.

We don’t go to Super Bowl XXX if the current rule is in force, as Ernie Mills dropped the ball when he fell OOB at the one.

Somehow the NFL survived for decades without this rule, and yet everyone knew what a catch was.

[swissvale72]

They need to simplify the rule.

Once the ball breaks the goal line it’s a touchdown PERIOD. That’s a runner or a receiver. It’s instantaneous. Example- James scores in that scenario. So does the Eagles player. It’s seems like a simple solution unless I am missing something.

That...AND....two feet in, ball never hits ground, it's a catch. No more of this bullshit of whether ball moves a millimeter.

We don’t go to Super Bowl XXX if the current rule is in force, as Ernie Mills dropped the fall when he fell OOB at the one.

Somehow the NFL survived for decades without this rule, and yet everyone knew what a catch was.

That's true!! Or if replay was in to see Kordell Stewart go OOB, come back in to catch a TD pass.

[franco32]

It's not clear from the video at all. You have to be Superman with x-ray vision to see through James forearm. I'm not. The very fact we are having this discussion...two reasonable posters...is proof that there was not indisputable evidence.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

One of the reasonable posters is looking at the evidence with homer glasses on...

https://goo.gl/images/EWYKAy

Um, that picture shows an instant in time when he has two hands on the football. The ball is allowed to touch the ground if he is holding it. There is nothing conclusive about it. You need video or frame by frame in order to assess whether it was a catch.

Besides, I didn't know the NFL replay officials were allowed to consult with endzone photographers to try to establish the indisputable nature of a call. Now you are reaching to 3rd party evidence to try to support the NFL's review. You might as well stop the game completely at that point and seize all sideline cameras for additional possible evidence.

[jeemie]

It's not clear from the video at all. You have to be Superman with x-ray vision to see through James forearm. I'm not. The very fact we are having this discussion...two reasonable posters...is proof that there was not indisputable evidence.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

One of the reasonable posters is looking at the evidence with homer glasses on...

https://goo.gl/images/EWYKAy

Um, that picture shows an instant in time when he has two hands on the football. The ball is allowed to touch the ground if he is holding it. There is nothing conclusive about it. You need video or frame by frame in order to assess whether it was a catch.

Besides, I didn't know the NFL replay officials were allowed to consult with endzone photographers to try to establish the indisputable nature of a call. Now you are reaching to 3rd party evidence to try to support the NFL's review. You might as well stop the game completely at that point and seize all sideline cameras for additional possible evidence.

If you think he’s “holding the ball” there, you are using your homer glasses that show he has the longest pinky and ring fingers in existence.

And the refs had that angle. They could see it hit the ground, and they could see the ball move when it hit the ground.

[Donnie Brasco]

If you think he’s “holding the ball” there, you are using your homer glasses that show he has the longest pinky and ring fingers in existence.

And the refs had that angle. They could see it hit the ground, and they could see the ball move when it hit the ground.

So now after replay, refs need to measure body parts to see if such plays are physically possibly by the length of their anatomy? If JJ had a deformity they going to take that into consideration?

Again, the evidence is NOT INDISPUTABLE.
If they would have ruled it Incomplete I'd say the same thing: there's not enough evidence to overturn the call on the field. I can't tell from the angles that he DID have control and hands under the ball
Period and end of story- stick with the original call

[Steelafan77]

The simple fact that James made a football move by diving [after taking a step] over the goal line was indisputable. Once the Goal line is broken..., Touchdown Period! Debate all you want. Exercise in futility, Dilly Dilly....

[Legacy User]

Whatever side one falls on the Jesse James catch/no catch debate, I think it’s pretty clear that the call would have stood has it occurred in the Super Bowl. NFL didn’t want anything offensively successful that looked like a clear touchdown to millions of people, and was called a touchdown on the field, micromanaged into a reversal, rewarding a defense that had failed on the play. I think the first of the two eagles touchdowns that went to review demonstrates this more than the second, where multiple steps were taken and a reversal would have been a travesty.

[Legacy User]

Whatever side one falls on the Jesse James catch/no catch debate, I think it’s pretty clear that the call would have stood has it occurred in the Super Bowl. NFL didn’t want anything offensively successful that looked like a clear touchdown to millions of people, and was called a touchdown on the field, micromanaged into a reversal, rewarding a defense that had failed on the play. I think the first of the two eagles touchdowns that went to review demonstrates this more than the second, where multiple steps were taken and a reversal would have been a travesty.

James did nothing like take multiple steps. Not even close. I still think posters thinking the reversal was obviously flawed are delusional.

If only the fucker had tucked and rolled.

[jeemie]

Whatever side one falls on the Jesse James catch/no catch debate, I think it’s pretty clear that the call would have stood has it occurred in the Super Bowl. NFL didn’t want anything offensively successful that looked like a clear touchdown to millions of people, and was called a touchdown on the field, micromanaged into a reversal, rewarding a defense that had failed on the play. I think the first of the two eagles touchdowns that went to review demonstrates this more than the second, where multiple steps were taken and a reversal would have been a travesty.

James did nothing like take multiple steps. Not even close. I still think posters thinking the reversal was obviously flawed are delusional.

If only the fucker had tucked and rolled.

Hell...if only James had let it go by...JuJu would have had it.

If only JuJu had continued straight down the sideline...he may get in and even if not, he goes OOB at about the same spot, stopping the clock.

If only our dim bulb coaches had used the three and a half minutes of free timeout they were given wisely.

[jeemie]

The simple fact that James made a football move by diving [after taking a step] over the goal line was indisputable. Once the Goal line is broken..., Touchdown Period! Debate all you want. Exercise in futility, Dilly Dilly....

The...refs...have...never...ruled...what...James...did...to...be...a...football...move.

Never...ever.

Prior...precedent.

[Obviously]

Whatever side one falls on the Jesse James catch/no catch debate, I think it’s pretty clear that the call would have stood has it occurred in the Super Bowl. NFL didn’t want anything offensively successful that looked like a clear touchdown to millions of people, and was called a touchdown on the field, micromanaged into a reversal, rewarding a defense that had failed on the play. I think the first of the two eagles touchdowns that went to review demonstrates this more than the second, where multiple steps were taken and a reversal would have been a travesty.

James did nothing like take multiple steps. Not even close. I still think posters thinking the reversal was obviously flawed are delusional.

If only the fucker had tucked and rolled.

Hell...if only James had let it go by...JuJu would have had it.

If only JuJu had continued straight down the sideline...he may get in and even if not, he goes OOB at about the same spot, stopping the clock.

If only our dim bulb coaches had used the three and a half minutes of free timeout they were given wisely.

Lit and Jeemie are spot on here. Especially the bolded.

[jeemie]

Donnie...stop being ridiculous.

One doesn’t have to “measure body parts” to know there’s no way James was holding the ball when it hit the ground and bounced up.

The call was a travesty, but rightly called according to the rules.

That’s why the rules are going to be changed.

[Legacy User]

Whatever side one falls on the Jesse James catch/no catch debate, I think it’s pretty clear that the call would have stood has it occurred in the Super Bowl. NFL didn’t want anything offensively successful that looked like a clear touchdown to millions of people, and was called a touchdown on the field, micromanaged into a reversal, rewarding a defense that had failed on the play. I think the first of the two eagles touchdowns that went to review demonstrates this more than the second, where multiple steps were taken and a reversal would have been a travesty.

James did nothing like take multiple steps. Not even close. I still think posters thinking the reversal was obviously flawed are delusional.

If only the fucker had tucked and rolled.

He did what anyone else would have done in that situation...reach for the goal line. It happens in milliseconds and we're thinking just like him, just cross the goal line with the ball. Everyone saying otherwise is just not being honest. I think he made a football move and the issue of "initial" contact with the ground still sets in my mind. I think, IMO, humbly, that at the very least we should have had the ball on the one yard line. Is what it is at this point. Only solace in all of this is the Eagles won!

[Legacy User]

Whatever side one falls on the Jesse James catch/no catch debate, I think it’s pretty clear that the call would have stood has it occurred in the Super Bowl. NFL didn’t want anything offensively successful that looked like a clear touchdown to millions of people, and was called a touchdown on the field, micromanaged into a reversal, rewarding a defense that had failed on the play. I think the first of the two eagles touchdowns that went to review demonstrates this more than the second, where multiple steps were taken and a reversal would have been a travesty.

James did nothing like take multiple steps. Not even close. I still think posters thinking the reversal was obviously flawed are delusional.

If only the fucker had tucked and rolled.

He did what anyone else would have done in that situation...reach for the goal line. It happens in milliseconds and we're thinking just like him, just cross the goal line with the ball. Everyone saying otherwise is just not being honest. I think he made a football move and the issue of "initial" contact with the ground still sets in my mind. I think, IMO, humbly, that at the very least we should have had the ball on the one yard line. Is what it is at this point. Only solace in all of this is the Eagles won!

Not true. I very likely would have dropped the pass.