Deshaun Watson

[jebrick]

If I'm the Browns or Watson's lawyer I say "We agree with the 1 year suspension and Mr. Watson looks forward to playing in a couple months since he already served that suspension last season"

Watson was never suspended by either the Texans nor the NFL last season

…didn’t miss a paycheck, and reportedly, it was his choice not to play.

Or it was Houston's choice. Either way, the NFL did not suspend him.

[DP39]

You guys saying Watson would be 4th best QB in AFCW are batshit. Wilson definitely isn't better. Herbert's numbers are comparable but it's 2 seasons vs. 3.5.

4 seasons in the NFL:
QBR of 103.0, 103.1, 98.0, 112.4

That's insane. Career completion% of 67.8%, which is even more impressive with an 8.3 YPA.

And nearly a 3:1 TD/INT ratio. That is a historically great start to a career. In 2018 and 2019 before HOU went off a cliff, he won 21 games with 5 game winning drives in each season. The guy is absolutely ELITE.

Agree.

[Deebo]

If I'm the Browns or Watson's lawyer I say "We agree with the 1 year suspension and Mr. Watson looks forward to playing in a couple months since he already served that suspension last season"

Watson was never suspended by either the Texans nor the NFL last season

…didn’t miss a paycheck, and reportedly, it was his choice not to play.

I didn't say it was a good argument But that's the angle I would go with. Essentially Watson took this time off to reflect and decided to not be a team distraction

[Pabst]

You guys saying Watson would be 4th best QB in AFCW are batshit. Wilson definitely isn't better. Herbert's numbers are comparable but it's 2 seasons vs. 3.5.

4 seasons in the NFL:
QBR of 103.0, 103.1, 98.0, 112.4

That's insane. Career completion% of 67.8%, which is even more impressive with an 8.3 YPA.

And nearly a 3:1 TD/INT ratio. That is a historically great start to a career. In 2018 and 2019 before HOU went off a cliff, he won 21 games with 5 game winning drives in each season. The guy is absolutely ELITE.

That's.....not really that insane. Excluding his rookie year rating of 103 (he only played in 6 games), those QB ratings ranked him 6th, 11th, and 2nd.

I don't know that we all appreciate just how insane QB numbers have become over the last 10+ years. A 100 QB rating put you in rare company 20 years ago. Now, it barely cracks the top 10. Yes, he put up huge numbers on a garbage team in 2020, but so did everyone else. There were ten QB's who put up a 100+ rating that season. No crowd noise really helped offenses.

A career 67.8 completion percentage? That would have tied him for 7th last season with Tua Tagovailoa.
8.3 YPA is very good, but still puts him in 3rd behind Jummy Garoppolo.
His career high of 33 TD passes would have put him in 9th (tied with Kirk Cousins).
His career high of 4823 yards would have barely cracked the top 5.
The 2.88:1 TD to INT ratio is also very good.....it's slightly ahead of Dak's 2.86:1, and way behind guys like Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, and Brady.


At the end of the day, I'd still take Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, and Wilson over him without a second thought. Watson fits somewhere in the 5-10 range of QBs with Dak, Herbert, Jackson, Stafford, Burrow, Murray, etc. And this is the overall point: Watson is, at best, the 5th best player at his position and comes with a ton of baggage.....yet the Browns gave him the most guaranteed $ in NFL history (by a huge margin). And I think this is a larger problem for the Browns: In terms of guaranteed money, they have the most expensive QB, CB, and Edge in the league, yet none of them are the best at their position. Heck, only Garrett would have been top 3 at the time he was signed.

[Kodiak.]

Or it was Houston's choice. Either way, the NFL did not suspend him.

The easy way around that is simply to fine him for those games. Then they can sell it as him having already been suspended for 1 season. Whether you agree or not, it's sort of a distinction without a difference.

That's my expectation. Something that reduces to 4-8 games after completing some mandatory therapy and service. And the NFL will say he received the equivalent of 1.5 seasons. And the NFL will say that is in line with Michael Vick, who missed 2 seasons after being convicted of a felony.

[Kodiak.]

...

Unfortunately I lost most of my post. You're one obtuse motherfucker.

Watson - after 3.5 years (which is better, across the board, than Josh Allen's 4 years overall, sorry, that's a fact).

ALL-TIME RANKS (that means relative to every other QB to have ever played the game):
YPA....3rd
Comp%...1st
Passer Rating....3rd
TD/INT%....5th
Fastest QB to 100 TDs....believe he's 4th


He's tracking 1st ballot, and you're comparing him to Jimmy Garapolo. Holy fucking moron, batman.

[Mick]

...

Unfortunately I lost most of my post. You're one obtuse motherfucker.

Watson - after 3.5 years (which is better, across the board, than Josh Allen's 4 years overall, sorry, that's a fact).

ALL-TIME RANKS (that means relative to every other QB to have ever played the game):
YPA....3rd
Comp%...1st
Passer Rating....3rd
TD/INT%....5th
Fastest QB to 100 TDs....believe he's 4th


He's tracking 1st ballot, and you're comparing him to Jimmy Garapolo. Holy fucking moron, batman.

are you comparing him to other QBs at the same point in their careers, or small sample numbers vs career numbers?

[Kodiak.]

are you comparing him to other QBs at the same point in their careers, or small sample numbers vs career numbers?

Those are his career numbers after 3.5 years. All the other guys mentioned could be in that comparison, too. I think it's something like 1400 career attempts to qualify for all-time lists. The only guys mentioned that might surpass his numbers after 3.5 years are Herbert, and maybe Burrow.

It's not that he's led the league year-after-year, it's that he's been consistently among the top every year that separates him from those other guys.

I shouldn't have to point out that Ben rarely led the league in any of these categories, not even top-3 most years. And he's a 1st ballot HOFer because he was consistently in the top-5/10 of these categories year after year. As Watson has been, but many other guys have not.


Garaffolo... Anyone making that comparison should get a TO.

[Pabst]

...

Unfortunately I lost most of my post. You're one obtuse motherfucker.

Watson - after 3.5 years (which is better, across the board, than Josh Allen's 4 years overall, sorry, that's a fact).

ALL-TIME RANKS (that means relative to every other QB to have ever played the game):
YPA....3rd
Comp%...1st
Passer Rating....3rd
TD/INT%....5th
Fastest QB to 100 TDs....believe he's 4th


He's tracking 1st ballot, and you're comparing him to Jimmy Garapolo. Holy fucking moron, batman.

Dude, what the hell are you getting so upset about?

First of all, Josh Allen was a developmental QB while Watson was a 3 year starter at an elite college program. Allen was expected to struggle while he developed. Their rookie season's aren't comparable.

And I think you're missing my overall point - QB numbers have exploded in the past few years. You need to compare Watson to his contemporaries, not players from even 20 years ago.

Yes, Watson is 3rd all time in Passer Rating: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... career.htm. But guess what? Mahomes is 1st. Rogers is 2nd. Dak Prescott is 5th. Kirk Cousins is 7th. Here's a fun fact: Among the top 20 all time leaders, 15 were active in 2020 (only Romo, Young, Manning, and Montana were not). Mitch Trubisky has a higher career rating than guys like Dan Marino and Brett Favre, and he sucks.

Similar deal with completion percentage and TD/INT: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... career.htm With the weird exception of Chad Pennington, literally all of these guys are HOFers or modern era QBs.

Yes, he's the 4th fastest to 100 TDs.....right in between Mahomes and Allen. And there's a good chance Justin Herbert passes him this season. Burrow has a chance as well.

I'm not saying Watson is a bad QB. I'd personally put him at #5 or #6 in the NFL at the moment. Does that make him elite? I don't know, but what I will happily go on record as saying is this: HE IS NOT $100m BETTER THAN JOSH ALLEN, PATRICK MAHOMES, OR AARON RODGERS. Is that fair?

[RemoAZ]

What I want to know about this whole mess is if he's suspended for any length of time, do the Browns crawl back to Baker? That will be a great story to follow. And do they still lose all those draft picks and cap space? That will be hilarious. Such a stupid move by one of the worst run franchises in the NFL. Washington and Jacksonville are probably so thankful they are helping keep some of the spotlight off of them.

[Kodiak.]

You need to compare Watson to his contemporaries, not players from even 20 years ago.

You're missing the point. Qualification is ~1400 attempts on career lists. I DID compare him to his contemporaries, he's just been better so they aren't as high on those lists.

I'm not saying Watson is a bad QB. I'd personally put him at #5 or #6 in the NFL at the moment. Does that make him elite? I don't know, but what I will happily go on record as saying is this: HE IS NOT $100m BETTER THAN JOSH ALLEN, PATRICK MAHOMES, OR AARON RODGERS. Is that fair?

You compared him to Garaffolo.

And I'd probably put him around #5, as well. You don't know if he's elite?!?! The QB that is clearly better than Watson is Mahomes. That's it. Everyone else is debatable, many of whom have only been doing it for a year or two and will likely not meet the lofty expectations. And, sure, it could take Watson a year to get back to where he was (longer if he has a long suspension).

The conversation was never about value. I'd take him over old man Rodgers, at this point, who just signed a $50M per year deal. Mahomes isn't that far behind, contract-wise, but I'd take Mahomes obviously.

[Pabst]

You need to compare Watson to his contemporaries, not players from even 20 years ago.

You're missing the point. Qualification is ~1400 attempts on career lists. I DID compare him to his contemporaries, he's just been better so they aren't as high on those lists.

Using the standards listed above: QB Rating, YPA, Completion %, TD %, INT %, fastest to 100 TDs. Kirk Cousins is, across the board in every single category, a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger, Tom Brady (for all except INT %), and (with the exception of fastest to 100 TDs) Peyton Manning.

Do you see the issue here?

You compared him to Garaffolo.

I compared his YPA to Garoppolo (which over their careers is almost identical). I never once said that Garoppolo was a better QB. What's the issue here? I'm genuinely asking.

And I'd probably put him around #5, as well. You don't know if he's elite?!?!

So we're actually in full agreement on Watson's abilities, the question is whether being 5th best out of 32 qualifies as elite.

Again, why is this so upsetting?

[Pabst]

And I'd probably put him around #5, as well. You don't know if he's elite?!?! The QB that is clearly better than Watson is Mahomes. That's it. Everyone else is debatable, many of whom have only been doing it for a year or two and will likely not meet the lofty expectations. And, sure, it could take Watson a year to get back to where he was (longer if he has a long suspension).

Sorry, one more: Watson has only had one truly elite season, and that was the weird 2020 campaign with no crowds. He did not post elite numbers in 2018 or 2019.

[Pabst]

What I want to know about this whole mess is if he's suspended for any length of time, do the Browns crawl back to Baker? That will be a great story to follow. And do they still lose all those draft picks and cap space? That will be hilarious. Such a stupid move by one of the worst run franchises in the NFL. Washington and Jacksonville are probably so thankful they are helping keep some of the spotlight off of them.

Yes. The only way that changes is if the league steps in to void the trade after the fact (which would be unprecedented) and/or if the Browns' have some sort of out-clause in Watson's contract (though they'd still lose the picks).

[rooneytunes]

As of today 20 have settled.


So Ben got 6 games reduced to four for 2 settlements

That's 3 games per settlement reduced to 2 games per settlement.

So Watson should initially get a 60 games suspension with possibility of reducing to 40

[RemoAZ]

As of today 20 have settled.


So Ben got 6 games reduced to four for 2 settlements

That's 3 games per settlement reduced to 2 games per settlement.

So Watson should initially get a 60 games suspension with possibility of reducing to 40

You forgot the and counting...

[Deebo]

20 down...just 4 to go

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/341 ... on-settled

[COR-TEN]

So essentially the cleveland browns paid off watson's accusers. 20 settlements. So they can have a top 6 QB in the conference. Talk about desperate. But in america, money buys absolution, I guess. Life is money, and money is life. What a fucked up world we live in.

[Kodiak.]

Yes. The only way that changes is if the league steps in to void the trade after the fact (which would be unprecedented) and/or if the Browns' have some sort of out-clause in Watson's contract (though they'd still lose the picks).

The league doesn't have to void the trade. CLE has conditions that allow them to void the trade.

You're really full of shit throughout this thread.

[Pabst]

Yes. The only way that changes is if the league steps in to void the trade after the fact (which would be unprecedented) and/or if the Browns' have some sort of out-clause in Watson's contract (though they'd still lose the picks).

The league doesn't have to void the trade. CLE has conditions that allow them to void the trade.

You're really full of shit throughout this thread.

1. Cleveland has conditions that void the trade if a suspension occurs after 2023.

2. What have I said that's full of shit? Seriously - quote me directly

3. What the fuck is the matter with you? You have been an absolute bitch in this entire thread without pointing out anything I've said that's incorrect.

[COR-TEN]

Yes. The only way that changes is if the league steps in to void the trade after the fact (which would be unprecedented) and/or if the Browns' have some sort of out-clause in Watson's contract (though they'd still lose the picks).

The league doesn't have to void the trade. CLE has conditions that allow them to void the trade.

You're really full of shit throughout this thread.

1. Cleveland has conditions that void the trade if a suspension occurs after 2023.

2. What have I said that's full of shit? Seriously - quote me directly

3. What the fuck is the matter with you? You have been an absolute bitch in this entire thread without pointing out anything I've said that's incorrect.

His hemorrhoids must be acting up?

[Pabst]

The league doesn't have to void the trade. CLE has conditions that allow them to void the trade.

You're really full of shit throughout this thread.

1. Cleveland has conditions that void the trade if a suspension occurs after 2023.

2. What have I said that's full of shit? Seriously - quote me directly

3. What the fuck is the matter with you? You have been an absolute bitch in this entire thread without pointing out anything I've said that's incorrect.

His hemorrhoids must be acting up?

I guess? holy shit...

And to clarify: The 2023 deal in my first point was discussed on Rich Eisen (I believe) a week or two ago. The idea that the Browns can void the contract is all coming from Florio and/or Mary Kay Cabot and hinges on an interpretation of the contract that assumes Watson withheld information from the team.

I have no clue what's up his ass about everything else

[Professor Half Wit]

1. Cleveland has conditions that void the trade if a suspension occurs after 2023.

2. What have I said that's full of shit? Seriously - quote me directly

3. What the fuck is the matter with you? You have been an absolute bitch in this entire thread without pointing out anything I've said that's incorrect.

His hemorrhoids must be acting up?

I guess? holy shit...

And to clarify: The 2023 deal in my first point was discussed on Rich Eisen (I believe) a week or two ago. The idea that the Browns can void the contract is all coming from Florio and/or Mary Kay Cabot and hinges on an interpretation of the contract that assumes Watson withheld information from the team.

I have no clue what's up his ass about everything else

The long and short of it is that Kodiak is eristic.

[Pabst]

The long and short of it is that Kodiak is eristic.

I guess, but since you're the professor, please explain this one to me....


Me:

Yes. The only way that changes is if the league steps in to void the trade after the fact (which would be unprecedented) and/or if the Browns' have some sort of out-clause in Watson's contract (though they'd still lose the picks).

Him:

CLE has conditions that allow them to void the trade.

You're really full of shit throughout this thread.

Am i missing something here? Maybe i shouldn't have assumed that he meant "contract" instead of "trade"? That would be a bizarre thing to argue since Houston already traded that first round pick to Philly (who used it on Jordan Davis).

[Jobu]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nfl ... ghyobsy4fo

https://sportsnaut.com/deshaun-watson-t ... ans-3/amp/

This shouldn’t come as too much of a surprise. Should Houston feel obligated to send draft picks to the Browns because the latter failed in its vetting process? No way. There’s no way that the NFL would go back and force a reexamination of said trade. None at all.

[Kodiak.]

Am i missing something here? Maybe i shouldn't have assumed that he meant "contract" instead of "trade"? That would be a bizarre thing to argue since Houston already traded that first round pick to Philly (who used it on Jordan Davis).

Given HOU may have had some role in Watson's indiscretions, I think it's absolutely possible the league could void the trade. The trade may even contain language specific to that. Watson's contract has these conditions, the trade agreement likely does, as well. I'm not aware of the trade agreement being public - everyone is just assuming Watson was traded "as-is" and I think that's unlikely.

Conditional trades are nothing new to the NFL. And there were a boatload of disclosures and conditions attached to this deal.

[Pabst]

Am i missing something here? Maybe i shouldn't have assumed that he meant "contract" instead of "trade"? That would be a bizarre thing to argue since Houston already traded that first round pick to Philly (who used it on Jordan Davis).

Given HOU may have had some role in Watson's indiscretions, I think it's absolutely possible the league could void the trade. The trade may even contain language specific to that. Watson's contract has these conditions, the trade agreement likely does, as well. I'm not aware of the trade agreement being public - everyone is just assuming Watson was traded "as-is" and I think that's unlikely.

Conditional trades are nothing new to the NFL. And there were a boatload of disclosures and conditions attached to this deal.

Hold on a fucking minute......

this is what you said in your last post:

The league doesn't have to void the trade. CLE has conditions that allow them to void the trade.

You're really full of shit throughout this thread.

So you said I was "really full of shit" but you actually have never seen the agreement and are just speculating?

And conditional trades in the NFL (and all sports leagues) are typically contingent on passing a physical or involve drafted picks based on how a team finishes a season (i.e. a draft pick moves from the 4th to the 3rd if Cleveland makes a Super Bowl). The 2022 first round pick in the Watson deal has already been used - are there any examples of a league voiding a trade after a pick has been made? I'd love to see an example, which is why i said:

The only way that changes is if the league steps in to void the trade after the fact (which would be unprecedented)

This is the 2nd time (at least) in this thread that you've called me "an obtuse motherfucker" or "full of shit" only to say damn near the same thing i did a few posts earlier. So I'll ask again....what the fuck is your problem?

[Pabst]

https://sports.yahoo.com/reports-deshau ... 23835.html


League will seek an indefinite suspension of at least 1 year

[blu]

For me, the best part is that Cleveland figured with Watson that the 1st & 2nd 2023 draft picks they traded away would closer to the end of the round. Same with the 2024 1st & 4th picks but there is a better chance that Watson will be starting then.

[Ice]

For me, the best part is that Cleveland figured with Watson that the 1st & 2nd 2023 draft picks they traded away would closer to the end of the round. Same with the 2024 1st & 4th picks but there is a better chance that Watson will be starting then.

They'll be just fine after trading us a 5th for Bibberty.