Packers AT Seahawks

[Legacy User]

They made the OC change at the same time they had to start dumping older players.

Maybe they coincide, maybe not. The overall talent is not nearly as good. Not because they're too stupid to pick players, but because its rare any team carries a roster like that for so long.

off topic, to the Larry Foote haters, Arians said Foote got 12 votes for team captain out in AZ. Speaks to why Steelers tried to hold on to him for so long. Only think people see here is how close you cover a TE

I think a lot of people think how close you can shade the RB or TE matters a lot more than getting votes for captain. My guess is people very well concede that what you're saying is true, but don't care and think it matters little in comparison to not being terribly slow. Not advocating this, by the way.

[stinger8]

For all the we need a high flying throw the ball all over the place proponents. Look at the stats in this game. Seattle ran the ball 37 times and threw it 28 times. I cant remember one throw over 20 yards (I admit I was not watching "intently"). Yes they have a QB who is very athletic and utilize his skills but this game is proof that you don't need a 45 pass attempt offense to succeed.

In addition Seattle thoroughly won the trenches, dominated on run D and ran the ball down GB,s throat.

This is the game plan employed by the consensus number 1 team in the NFL

[bradshaw2ben]

Steelers can't run that read option ride series bullshit with a 250 lb QB. Even all your friends at weight watchers know Ben is no threat to run the football so there is no "read" in "read option". At that point it becomes a draw play.

Tell that to Nick Foles

Tell That to Nick Foles, who is basically the same size and threat to run that Ben is.

Peyton runs the read option, also. Is he a threat to go anywhere more than twice a year? No.

The thinking that you have to have a running QB to make spread and read option work is extremely outdated.

[Legacy User]

Steelers can't run that read option ride series bullshit with a 250 lb QB. Even all your friends at weight watchers know Ben is no threat to run the football so there is no "read" in "read option". At that point it becomes a draw play.

Tell that to Nick Foles

Tell That to Nick Foles, who is basically the same size and threat to run that Ben is.

Peyton runs the read option, also. Is he a threat to go anywhere more than twice a year? No.

The thinking that you have to have a running QB to make spread and read option work is extremely outdated.

Also, we've seen Ben gracefully lumber into the end zone a few times, no?

[swissvale72]

For all the we need a high flying throw the ball all over the place proponents. Look at the stats in this game. Seattle ran the ball 37 times and threw it 28 times. I cant remember one throw over 20 yards (I admit I was not watching "intently"). Yes they have a QB who is very athletic and utilize his skills but this game is proof that you don't need a 45 pass attempt offense to succeed.

In addition Seattle thoroughly won the trenches, dominated on run D and ran the ball down GB,s throat.

This is the game plan employed by the consensus number 1 team in the NFL

ITS THE WAY THEY DO IT......the Steelers run 5-7 fat slow dumb unmotivated guys straight ahead and hope they are gonna move a pile of humanity ahead 2-3 yards so a fat slow unmotivated rb can go up the middle, left or right.....Seattle pretty got all kinds of motion going regularly by play design and smart strong fast motivated players.....

Two questions:
*How would you know that the 5-7 guys are dumb & unmotivated....I'll cede that fat & slow could be plainly visible, though I hardly think that Pouncey is fat & slow
*Why is the RB also not dumb? This on the heels of our two lead RBs unquestionably being stupid asses on their last trip down the Parkway West.

[Legacy User]

so all the Steelers need is Chip Kelly and Percy Harvin and we'd have no reason to be here anymore

[Legacy User]

They made the OC change at the same time they had to start dumping older players.

Maybe they coincide, maybe not. The overall talent is not nearly as good. Not because they're too stupid to pick players, but because its rare any team carries a roster like that for so long.

off topic, to the Larry Foote haters, Arians said Foote got 12 votes for team captain out in AZ. Speaks to why Steelers tried to hold on to him for so long. Only think people see here is how close you cover a TE

I think a lot of people think how close you can shade the RB or TE matters a lot more than getting votes for captain. My guess is people very well concede that what you're saying is true, but don't care and think it matters little in comparison to not being terribly slow. Not advocating this, by the way.

the point about getting votes for captain is they are the kinds of people that make players around them better. As a unit. Not just a step closer to a TE. They coach on and off the field. Get all 11 players lined up right and in the correct assignment. Help you understand reads, keys, and preparation. Those guys are invaluable to a winner.

Heirarchy's are set up different. Steelers in particular are set up for locker room leadership. They don't have a rah rah coaching staff. Pete Carroll is that kind of guy. They rally around his leadership. Some teams have estblished vets that do that. Again, right wrong or indifferent, both work. Its how you set it up

[swissvale72]

They made the OC change at the same time they had to start dumping older players.

Maybe they coincide, maybe not. The overall talent is not nearly as good. Not because they're too stupid to pick players, but because its rare any team carries a roster like that for so long.

off topic, to the Larry Foote haters, Arians said Foote got 12 votes for team captain out in AZ. Speaks to why Steelers tried to hold on to him for so long. Only think people see here is how close you cover a TE

I think a lot of people think how close you can shade the RB or TE matters a lot more than getting votes for captain. My guess is people very well concede that what you're saying is true, but don't care and think it matters little in comparison to not being terribly slow. Not advocating this, by the way.

the point about getting votes for captain is they are the kinds of people that make players around them better. As a unit. Not just a step closer to a TE. They coach on and off the field. Get all 11 players lined up right and in the correct assignment. Help you understand reads, keys, and preparation. Those guys are invaluable to a winner.

Heirarchy's are set up different. Steelers in particular are set up for locker room leadership. They don't have a rah rah coaching staff. Pete Carroll is that kind of guy. They rally around his leadership. Some teams have estblished vets that do that. Again, right wrong or indifferent, both work. Its how you set it up

Interesting about Larry Foote. I ALWAYS thought that he was sold short....from everyone except the people whose confidence he needed.

[bradshaw2ben]

Seattle has one premium pick player on its OL, Okung.

otherwise, they have a LG who they were ridiculed for "overdrafting" by 3 rounds near the end of round 1, a 2nd round OC, a scrap heap DL converted to RG, and a 2nd pick they were ridiculed for overdrafting by 3-4 rounds. They basically have three players on their OL that nobody wanted, and somehow those guys create huge openings for a fantastic run game and PA protect as well as any team.

Their strength isn't the players, per se, it's the organization from top to bottom. Seattle dumped what everyone said were the two best run defenders they had (Totupu and Red Bryant), plugged in new players... and got better. Seattle spent a 4th and a 5th to get the best RB in football, then spent a 4th and a 2nd to get the best backups in the league. A 2nd, two 4ths and a 5th is highway robbery for what they got.

They're just firing on all cylinders, so I think it's fair to admire their success.

[Legacy User]

I'm not impressed by the Seattle offense-

GB has a pretty lousy defense...25 last year, minus there best run stuffer this year.

Stupid 4th down penalty otherwise Hags punt on first FG.

GB dropped coverage due to collision results in wide open 33 yard pass to Harvin. Next play GB CB Shields drops coverage assignment and Dix blows an open field tackle for a score. This drive was purely piss poor by GB.

Fairly certain it was a dropped coverage by GB LB Jones on Hags TE that started the Hags other first half score...then it was the Lynch show.

Third Hags score was on Nelsons deflection. FG after three and out in red zone.

Stupid ass fourth down call by MM and the Hags go 3 and out.

4th qter stupid ass Safety then the Lynch run game show the rest of the way...

[Mick]

Seattle has one premium pick player on its OL, Okung.

otherwise, they have a LG who they were ridiculed for "overdrafting" by 3 rounds near the end of round 1, a 2nd round OC, a scrap heap DL converted to RG, and a 2nd pick they were ridiculed for overdrafting by 3-4 rounds. They basically have three players on their OL that nobody wanted, and somehow those guys create huge openings for a fantastic run game and PA protect as well as any team.

Their strength isn't the players, per se, it's the organization from top to bottom. Seattle dumped what everyone said were the two best run defenders they had (Totupu and Red Bryant), plugged in new players... and got better. Seattle spent a 4th and a 5th to get the best RB in football, then spent a 4th and a 2nd to get the best backups in the league. A 2nd, two 4ths and a 5th is highway robbery for what they got.

They're just firing on all cylinders, so I think it's fair to admire their success.

Last year they had a
12th overall pick rb running behind
High 1st, low 1st, mid 2nd, 5th, 7th.

We had a rookie 2nd rounder running behind
Low 1st, low 2nd, 7th, udfa, udfa.

And lynch didn't have some dominant season. He had 4.2 ypc. Seattle had a very good running game overall thanks to a big contribution from their qb, but the seattle lesson to me is how much better an offense looks overall thanks to a run game that is even just above average, as opposed to the black hole we've had the last two seasons.

[jebrick]

I'm not impressed by the Seattle offense-

GB has a pretty lousy defense...25 last year, minus there best run stuffer this year.

Stupid 4th down penalty otherwise Hags punt on first FG.

GB dropped coverage due to collision results in wide open 33 yard pass to Harvin. Next play GB CB Shields drops coverage assignment and Dix blows an open field tackle for a score. This drive was purely piss poor by GB.

Fairly certain it was a dropped coverage by GB LB Jones on Hags TE that started the Hags other first half score...then it was the Lynch show.

Third Hags score was on Nelsons deflection. FG after three and out in red zone.

Stupid ass fourth down call by MM and the Hags go 3 and out.

4th qter stupid ass Safety then the Lynch run game show the rest of the way...

I would go with this over Seattle is an unstoppable juggernaut.

Green Bay is on the fall. Paying a franchise QB pushes lowers their overall talent level. Rodgers will keep them in games for a while but that defense is going to get gashed with running teams this season.

[bradshaw2ben]

you guys rationalizing the Seattle O are funny. They put up 34 vs a good team. The recently (you may have heard) put up 36 in the Super Bowl and put up 23 in both playoff games, vs two top 5 defenses who were averaging 18 points per game or less.

That was then, this is now. I predict they'll be more effective this year than last and, as long as Wilson is healthy, they show no signs of peaking anytime soon.

[Mick]

you guys rationalizing the Seattle O are funny. They put up 34 vs a good team. The recently (you may have heard) put up 36 in the Super Bowl and put up 23 in both playoff games, vs two top 5 defenses who were averaging 18 points per game or less.

That was then, this is now. I predict they'll be more effective this year than last and, as long as Wilson is healthy, they show no signs of peaking anytime soon.

not sure where I am 'rationalizing' or even if we disagree about anything.

I contend that:
(1) Seattle scored 41 offensive tds last season to our 37
(2) Seattle's defense coming up with 39 turnovers (1st in nfl) helped them score
(3) Pittsburgh's defense coming up with only 20 TOs (27th) hurt our ability to score
(4) 23 of seattle's tds came in the last 9 games compared to 26 of ours.
(5) Percy harvin coming back should help them a lot this year.
(6) Seattle had a good, not great ground game and a good, not great passing game last season which gave them a good O overall.
(7) We had an above average/good passing game dragged down by an awful run game last season.
(8) I hope our run game improves to at least average this season, that would help a lot.
(9) We scored 38 against the pack when we played them. And they are worse on the road than at home.

[bradshaw2ben]

the only thing we disagree about is: Seattle's pass game. Just look at the YPA and efficiency. They're very good.

Seattle's run game is pretty good overall, too... they spent a lot of time last year in 4 minute offense, grinding teams to death after they had the lead.

[FortyThree]

As good as Seattle's defense is, or was, it sure seemed to me that Green Bay left a lot of plays on the field. Twice Rodgers probably could've scrambled for 1st downs on 3rd down and both times he forced throws that ended up incomplete.

Their failure to call timeout before the 4th down attempt cost them dearly. Plus defensively they had Seattle stopped twice before penalties extended drives and lead to scores.

I'm not saying Green Bay is better than Seattle or that they deserved to win but they definitely had multiple chances to keep the game close and Green Bay made mistakes. These weren't mistakes they were forced into either.

Then again Seattle muffed that punt that lead to GB points too, so what do I know?

[Legacy User]

Pete Carroll has only 3 guys left on that roster that were there when got there. They were a horridly shitty team. He had no choice but to tear down the roster. They weren't on the hook for large guarantees and had the ability to do that, Steelers don't have that luxury even if they wanted to.

Even now, Seattle is paying Tarvaris Jackson more money than Russell Wilson. Ben will make twice as much money in week 1 than Wilson will make all year.

After this season, when they have to pay Russell Wilson $120M, and cut their roster in half, come talk to me then

[Steelknife]

Seattle is very good.

They're not unbeatable.

The middle of their defense looked exploitable, both against the run and the pass. GB had success running between the tackles early, but then started airing it out, and only running out of predictable formations (2 TE sets). A team that runs out of 3 WR sets will be successful.

The middle of the D was wide open against the pass all day.

Seattle's offense is tough to figure out. They're a below average unit without Marshawn. He frees up everything they want to do. If you don't stack the box, they'll pound the rock, and when you start clogging the middle, they'll bust Harvin out wide on a reverse or a screen. If you put 8 or 9 in the box, Wilson, while not great, is good enough to beat that, especially with the scheme. Read options, roll outs, easy throws. If Lynch goes down, that team is 10-6, maybe worse, especially in their division.

A team that can have success stopping the run in nickel will give the Seahawks fits. I think some of the teams best suited to do that play in their division. Unfortunately, I don't think any of those teams have the offense to take advantage of Seattle's defense. 49ers, maybe, if Kap shows improvement. I think the Cardinals give them the most trouble of any of them. The NFC West will be fun to watch.

[steelclan]

Seattle is very good.

They're not unbeatable.

The middle of their defense looked exploitable, both against the run and the pass. GB had success running between the tackles early, but then started airing it out, and only running out of predictable formations (2 TE sets). A team that runs out of 3 WR sets will be successful.

The middle of the D was wide open against the pass all day.

Seattle's offense is tough to figure out. They're a below average unit without Marshawn. He frees up everything they want to do. If you don't stack the box, they'll pound the rock, and when you start clogging the middle, they'll bust Harvin out wide on a reverse or a screen. If you put 8 or 9 in the box, Wilson, while not great, is good enough to beat that, especially with the scheme. Read options, roll outs, easy throws. If Lynch goes down, that team is 10-6, maybe worse, especially in their division.

A team that can have success stopping the run in nickel will give the Seahawks fits. I think some of the teams best suited to do that play in their division. Unfortunately, I don't think any of those teams have the offense to take advantage of Seattle's defense. 49ers, maybe, if Kap shows improvement. I think the Cardinals give them the most trouble of any of them. The NFC West will be fun to watch.

Cards and to a lesser extent the Niners both gave Seahawks real issues last season. That said both those Ds have gotten worse and the Seahawks oline is already considerably better than it was last season. I also think Zach Miller is healthy, he never looked right last year and healthy he can still be a very nice weapon and excellent blocker (his block on Matthews was exceptional). Harvin makes a huge difference healthy as well. The Seahawks biggest issue is depth on the dline.

[lifelongsteel]

What impresses me is just how "hard" they play, down after down. I don't think they are that talented - top ten in league for sure but not a dominant group. I think they've got 53 guys who'll get after it for 60 minutes.

[Legacy User]

Hags are in real trouble with that line in if they fall into obvious passing situations...really Wilsons feet are still saving them now...even with the run game and the lead.

[Steelknife]

What impresses me is just how "hard" they play, down after down. I don't think they are that talented - top ten in league for sure but not a dominant group. I think they've got 53 guys who'll get after it for 60 minutes.

This. For the most part, they're after the ball every play, don't miss a ton of tackles, and they're always going 100%.

Comes down to coaching.

[Steelknife]

Also, AJ Hawk is absolutely awful. Like, so bad I had to rewind a few times to confirm what I just saw.

[bradshaw2ben]

Seattle's offense is tough to figure out. They're a below average unit without Marshawn. He frees up everything they want to do. If you don't stack the box, they'll pound the rock, and when you start clogging the middle, they'll bust Harvin out wide on a reverse or a screen. If you put 8 or 9 in the box, Wilson, while not great, is good enough to beat that, especially with the scheme. Read options, roll outs, easy throws. If Lynch goes down, that team is 10-6, maybe worse, especially in their division.

Robert Turbin and Christine Michael.

Either would be starting here if we had them. I don't see the drop off when Turbin is in the game and I think Michael looks on the NFL field like a superstar in waiting.

[V DUB]

Seattle is very good.

They're not unbeatable.

The middle of their defense looked exploitable, both against the run and the pass. GB had success running between the tackles early, but then started airing it out, and only running out of predictable formations (2 TE sets). A team that runs out of 3 WR sets will be successful.

The middle of the D was wide open against the pass all day.

Seattle's offense is tough to figure out. They're a below average unit without Marshawn. He frees up everything they want to do. If you don't stack the box, they'll pound the rock, and when you start clogging the middle, they'll bust Harvin out wide on a reverse or a screen. If you put 8 or 9 in the box, Wilson, while not great, is good enough to beat that, especially with the scheme. Read options, roll outs, easy throws. If Lynch goes down, that team is 10-6, maybe worse, especially in their division.

A team that can have success stopping the run in nickel will give the Seahawks fits. I think some of the teams best suited to do that play in their division. Unfortunately, I don't think any of those teams have the offense to take advantage of Seattle's defense. 49ers, maybe, if Kap shows improvement. I think the Cardinals give them the most trouble of any of them. The NFC West will be fun to watch.

Good post, I made the same observation regarding the middle of thier defense.

On a side note, I read an SI (?) article, that was absolutely garbage titled "Where have all the gunslinger gone?"...there in the NFC. I guess the definition has morphed into mobile QB's with mediocre accuracy & scheme dependent. Not one mention of Ben, which is my very definition of gunslinger. I think he's the closest thing to the word in the NFL. I wouldn't have wiped my ass with that article, it was such bullshit.

Sorry for the OT post. I'll end rant here.

[Steelknife]

Seattle's offense is tough to figure out. They're a below average unit without Marshawn. He frees up everything they want to do. If you don't stack the box, they'll pound the rock, and when you start clogging the middle, they'll bust Harvin out wide on a reverse or a screen. If you put 8 or 9 in the box, Wilson, while not great, is good enough to beat that, especially with the scheme. Read options, roll outs, easy throws. If Lynch goes down, that team is 10-6, maybe worse, especially in their division.

Robert Turbin and Christine Michael.

Either would be starting here if we had them. I don't see the drop off when Turbin is in the game and I think Michael looks on the NFL field like a superstar in waiting.

Need a bigger sample size but maybe!

[bradshaw2ben]

People talk about Seattle losing players once they have to pay Wilson-- to me a bigger issue is: teams are going to raid their coaching staff and front office. I'm way more impressed with how they run their team than their talent, and I'm a big fan of their talent.

[Havoc]

To me three things stand out about the Hags D-

1- They invest in and roll Dline and get pressure with 4 most of the game.

2- They play bump n run or press bail cover 3 almost exclusively and they look exactly the same presnap. The range of Earl Thomas just makes it that much tougher to read.

3- Fast smart LBs that clean up the rb's the D line miss on the way to the QB...and there drops are good enough to be interchangeable with Chancellor in coverage.

It reminds me a whole lot of the Johnson era Cowboy teams...

It's the perfect scheme in today's nfl.

[Legacy User]

To me three things stand out about the Hags D-

1- They invest in and roll Dline and get pressure with 4 most of the game.

2- They play bump n run or press bail cover 3 almost exclusively and they look exactly the same presnap. The range of Earl Thomas just makes it that much tougher to read.

3- Fast smart LBs that clean up the rb's the D line miss on the way to the QB...and there drops are good enough to be interchangeable with Chancellor in coverage.

It reminds me a whole lot of the Johnson era Cowboy teams...

It's the perfect scheme in today's nfl.

Credit where credit is due, I've got Carrol number 1 but...

You need the premium pick at FS...

You need the high value picks and coin for the D line...

You need to find the early round speed at LB...that still makes sure tackles and knows angles and drops...

You need to be a visionary that still get's lucky at CB...

Then you still need to be lucky enough to get a third round QB that offsets the big fuck up of paying Flynn and...

Still be lucky and recent college exposure smart enough to base an offense around Lynch and Tate when your high priced WR pick ups miss seasons to injury...

I really don't think there is going to be quite so much reverence for the Hags by week 8 this year...and I think they have about 5 really tough games after that They are going to be playing more physical teams then GB...and they all want Hag pie.

[V DUB]

Too me, it seems like both Kelly & Carroll got to cherry pick recruits they thought fit their system. Even guys they didnt land at school. How else do you explain the overdrafting for Seattle, or Fole's over Vick?

We'll see how it plays out.

I think both of these guys are out of the league once the inside scoop is gone. Carroll already has shown it, Kelly, we'll see.