Peyton A Far Better Leader Than Ben

[lifelongsteel]

Both elite players and bottom of the roster players can have leadership capabilities. It "means" more when it comes from your best players, and in the NFL it means more still if it's your QB because of the level of responsibility they have. When Peyton is the first in and last out of the building it's more important than when the 53rd man does it.

[K_C_]

Both elite players and bottom of the roster players can have leadership capabilities. It "means" more when it comes from your best players, and in the NFL it means more still if it's your QB because of the level of responsibility they have. When Peyton is the first in and last out of the building it's more important than when the 53rd man does it.

I would agree with that overall, but IC said that "earning it on the field is the prerequisite."

I don't believe that at all.

For instance, IC himself pointed out that when Ben was somewhat out of control and the league gave him his bullshit suspension, it was Charlie Batch who "set him straight."

The back-up QB that rarely played.

Charlie Batch.

He "set straight" the franchise QB, for the good of the team.

You don't have to be a superstar to be a leader.

You just have to be someone others respect and who, for whatever reason, is a person that when they talk, others listen.

[jeemie]

Both elite players and bottom of the roster players can have leadership capabilities. It "means" more when it comes from your best players, and in the NFL it means more still if it's your QB because of the level of responsibility they have. When Peyton is the first in and last out of the building it's more important than when the 53rd man does it.

I would agree with that overall, but IC said that "earning it on the field is the prerequisite."

I don't believe that at all.

For instance, IC himself pointed out that when Ben was somewhat out of control and the league gave him his bullshit suspension, it was Charlie Batch who "set him straight."

The back-up QB that rarely played.

Charlie Batch.

He "set straight" the franchise QB, for the good of the team.

You don't have to be a superstar to be a leader.

You just have to be someone others respect and who, for whatever reason, is a person that when they talk, others listen.

In the same way, in the article IC posted long ago, when Fred Taylor was not living up to his potential, the players the coaches wanted him to see and be with were not the atars on the team, but simply guys who showed up and put in the hours.

[955876]

Do you have an actual point here?

And you won't list anyone you think is a big time leader because you can't without following my criteria.

It starts on the field from someone who's earned it.

This is something you can't even debate, so stop trying

1) I do have a point. And it's that you can't extrapolate who is a leader based on a career stat line. Doing so is using but one small piece of info and using that alone to tell the entire story. It's something you've mocked others here for doing countless times. Something along the lines of forming an opinion and then stating it as fact based on limited information. It's what you've done with this debate.

2) I won't list anyone I think is a big time leader because I think it's a waste of time and would be pure speculation on my part. I'm not in the huddle, at practice, in meetings, in the game, etc etc. And neither are you. So the exercise is totally futile. Miller, Batch, and yes, even Cotchery have been called team leaders by none other than the QB of the team. Since he has the inside info I guess I will just rely on that. Same can be said about Farrior when he was here. Said many times by fellow players & coaches. So I am left to assume its true. Without that, I wouldn't know. And I surely wouldn't be silly enough to look at a career stat line to make my decision for me.

By your very own criteria, Troy P is a team leader. He's had sustained success at a high level. He's proven it in the field. He supports the team message. Yet, he's said HIMSELF that not only is he not a team leader he doesn't seek to be. It's a roll he isn't comfortable with as it's not part of his internal makeup. Now that doesn't mean he isn't a respected member of the team and even a guy many look up to. But that's not enough to "lead"...

3) Yes. Sure. It does start on the field and no, I'm not trying to debate that. You do need to be able to have the ability. But you don't need HOF ability nor a HOF resume. You've said yourself all these guys at this level are talented. Difference is, I recognize there are FAR more factors involved than a stat line. You continually get stuck on that part.

It is you who continually dismiss guys as not being leaders based on a stat line. An you do so without having access to all the information. Information that is actually much more important and relevant.

The only one who should stop debating this is you. Because thus far, what part of what I've said is not true?

[Legacy User]

Leadership in organized sports is about results

Was Chuck Noll less of a leader in the eighties when the results started to suck?

nope, he was already established

Your turn, pick a guy in the NFL (aside from the obvious top 10-20 players) who you think is a leader, and tell me why?

Peyton Manning does 2 things as a leader really well:

(1) He sets a great example
(2) Challenges others and the process - he's not afraid to speak out.

Is he perfect? Fuck and no. Does he ALWAYS succeed? Nope. Is he "better than Ben" - depends on what lens you view him through.

If Ben dies in a car crash tomorrow and our options are Gradkowski and Manning come day after tomorrow, I think we know who's getting the job and we're fine with that.

[Legacy User]

Both elite players and bottom of the roster players can have leadership capabilities. It "means" more when it comes from your best players, and in the NFL it means more still if it's your QB because of the level of responsibility they have. When Peyton is the first in and last out of the building it's more important than when the 53rd man does it.

I would agree with that overall, but IC said that "earning it on the field is the prerequisite."

I don't believe that at all.

For instance, IC himself pointed out that when Ben was somewhat out of control and the league gave him his bullshit suspension, it was Charlie Batch who "set him straight."

The back-up QB that rarely played.

Charlie Batch.

He "set straight" the franchise QB, for the good of the team.

You don't have to be a superstar to be a leader.

You just have to be someone others respect and who, for whatever reason, is a person that when they talk, others listen.

You and I obviously have different definitions of the word leader. What you described in my eyes was being a good friend and teammate.

Charlie Batch was model person and represented the team well. He did display many leadership qualities. He conveyed the message of the organization well and wore his colors proudly. He helped establish clear vision and accountability. In my mind, the only thing he didn't do was instantly command respect from his performance on the field.

[jeemie]

Both elite players and bottom of the roster players can have leadership capabilities. It "means" more when it comes from your best players, and in the NFL it means more still if it's your QB because of the level of responsibility they have. When Peyton is the first in and last out of the building it's more important than when the 53rd man does it.

I would agree with that overall, but IC said that "earning it on the field is the prerequisite."

I don't believe that at all.

For instance, IC himself pointed out that when Ben was somewhat out of control and the league gave him his bullshit suspension, it was Charlie Batch who "set him straight."

The back-up QB that rarely played.

Charlie Batch.

He "set straight" the franchise QB, for the good of the team.

You don't have to be a superstar to be a leader.

You just have to be someone others respect and who, for whatever reason, is a person that when they talk, others listen.

You and I obviously have different definitions of the word leader. What you described in my eyes was being a good friend and teammate.

Charlie Batch was model person and represented the team well. He did display many leadership qualities. He conveyed the message of the organization well and wore his colors proudly. He helped establish clear vision and accountability. In my mind, the only thing he didn't do was instantly command respect from his performance on the field.

Except he did.

Whenever he came in as a sub, he instantly took command on the field.

You could see that.

Sure...Ben was way more talented, but I would hazard a guess that the "leadership quotient" barely dropped off at all when it was Charlie Batch rather than Ben Roethlisberger on the field.

IC...admit it...you never...EVER...brought the "a leader has to be a HoFer" argument into leadership discussions until the Steelers released Hines Ward and we had debates as to whether Jerricho Cotchery could be a leader.

Only THEN did it become the end all be all qualification that a leader had to have.

And you had to ignore documents YOU posted about team leadership in order to make that argument.

[Legacy User]

Did you really ever get the feeling that the presence of Charlie Batch inspired others to work harder?

You can put Charlie Batch on the same level as Ray Lewis, but I sure wont

Being capable and being a high performance leader are in no way the same things. I guess Fernando Velasco, kelvin Beachum, and Matt Spaeth were team leaders as we'll. Maybe you could show me your Greg Warren jersey sometime

What you're talking about is when no clear cut leader emerges, lesser established personalities try to take on that role when a high performing individual doesn't emerge or fit all the criteria.

Two totally different things

[jeemie]

Did you really ever get the feeling that the presence of Charlie Batch inspired others to work harder?

Yes, I did.

It was obvious in games he played...to me, at least. He led this team to many important wins when Ben was sidelined, and you could see the admiration the players on the field had for him. Especially after that big Ravens' game in 2012.

You can put Charlie Batch on the same level as Ray Lewis, but I sure wont.

Non sequitur.

Being capable and being a high performance leader are in no way the same things. I guess Fernando Velasco, kelvin Beachum, and Matt Spaeth were team leaders as we'll. Maybe you could show me your Greg Warren jersey sometime

This is the type of red herring you like to throw up there all the time. Irrelevant.

What you're talking about is when no clear cut leader emerges, lesser established personalities try to take on that role when a high performing individual doesn't emerge or fit all the criteria.

No...I'm not.

Charlie Batch appeared to be PRECISELY the type of leader that was referred to in the article YOU linked to back in 2012...the type of player you want young studs to look up to.

Back when you weren't adopting "a leader has to be a HoFer" argument because it suddenly suited your desire for Hines Ward to stay on the Steelers even though he couldn't play anymore.

[Legacy User]

Did you really ever get the feeling that the presence of Charlie Batch inspired others to work harder?

Yes, I did.

It was obvious in games he played...to me, at least.

You can put Charlie Batch on the same level as Ray Lewis, but I sure wont.

Non sequitur.

Being capable and being a high performance leader are in no way the same things. I guess Fernando Velasco, kelvin Beachum, and Matt Spaeth were team leaders as we'll. Maybe you could show me your Greg Warren jersey sometime

This is the type of red herring you like to throw up there all the time. Irrelevant.

What you're talking about is when no clear cut leader emerges, lesser established personalities try to take on that role when a high performing individual doesn't emerge or fit all the criteria.

No...I'm not.

Is there any of this you want me to respond too? Did Velasco not play well? Can you say for sure it inspired nobody?

And anything you don't have an answer for you call it Red Herring. Just tell me what Batch and Ray Lewis have in common?

[jeemie]

And anything you don't have an answer for you call it Red Herring. Just tell me what Batch and Ray Lewis have in common?

No, it's a red herring because I'm not arguing that every player that performs well is a leader.

YOU are the one linking leadership to performance, not me.

[Legacy User]

I think it's complicated. I view much of what the media puts out in this regard to be human interest bullshit. For good or bad, the more plays a guy makes, the more TDs and big hits, the more the team rallies around that player, the more he is elevated in the eye's of his teammates.

When this type of player emerges...unless it's a first rounder here comes the media with work habits commentary. Now I'm sure there sourced, but sometimes it's the story asking the leading questions...sometimes it's true, sometimes what's the source to say, " I dunno how he did it, he half asses it in the weight room...last guy at film first to boogie."

My opinion is if you aren't making plays no one really gives a fuck about you. But if you are making plays you gain standing no matter what your work habits. Consider LT...you look at him on the sidelines with the "crazed dogs" shit losing his mind over giving up points and there is no doubt he was the leader of that defense. But just about anyone will tell you he had terrible work habits and disappeared for days at a time during the season. It makes a better story if the team leaders are self made through work ethic...but bottom line I think how seriously a guy is taken is directly related to how many plays he makes.

Don't get me wrong. With this new CBA I would screen hard for work habits...guys like LT are so rare. High end of any profession almost always have high work ethic guys leading the way. But the NFL isn't really made up of guys like Rice, Brady, Ward, H Miller,..most of them are born that way...but still have to make a large commitment to football. You get to many guys like LT...the Gordons, V Millers, Pac Mans...you have problems. So much is the HC and FO screening players...but how do you pass on LT?

[zeke5123]

Leadership in organized sports is about results

Was Chuck Noll less of a leader in the eighties when the results started to suck?

nope, he was already established

Your turn, pick a guy in the NFL (aside from the obvious top 10-20 players) who you think is a leader, and tell me why?

Here are some guys who sucked in the NFL and turned out to be good leaders:

Bill Cowher
Dun Shula
Tony Dungy
Chuck Noll

Now, where they leaders during their time playing? Who knows. But, they sure as hell demonstrated some leadership qualities. Why else did NFL teams take a chance on them? Moreover, they also demonstrate that players can respect you even if you weren't awesome on the field. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

[Legacy User]

Shaking my MF'ing head

They were coaches. They earned their stripes as coaches. They weren't considered top notch leaders until they earned it as coaches. Do I really have to explain that?

Anyhow, I've limited my position to players only. Different places have different hierarchal structures.

In all cases, leadership is about how much respect you command

Anyone whose ever played organized sports on a successful team should have no problem understanding this

[K_C_]

The only part of IC's last statement that matters is that leadership is about how much respect you command.

Because there are a ton of ways to command respect.

[955876]

They were coaches. They earned their stripes as coaches. They weren't considered top notch leaders until they earned it as coaches.

No, their recognition as great leaders came once they were a coach. Their ability to lead men was already present or they would not have been able to obtain the position they did.

You don't take a flier on a guy like Bill Cowher and hope he can lead men. You already know and accept he's inexperienced as a coach and obviously accept that going in knowing that part of his skill set will grow as he gains experience.

What was known, or at least HIGHLY suspected, was his ability to lead men. It had to be apparent during the interview process or else he wouldn't have sniffed that job.

Why else would a team at the highest of levels hire a guy with such little experience unless he exhibited such a strong ability to lead?

They went through the interview process and came away knowing that players would follow this guy. Experience be damned.

Because the guy possessed the leadership trait I've been referring too.

He didn't learn that on the job. He had that inside himself already.

Guys that have played for a legend like Chuck Noll don't immediately follow a guy with such little coaching experience and highly mediocre playing career (Cowher) unless the guy is a natural leader.

Bill was and players followed. Experience and past results be damned.

[Legacy User]

They were coaches. They earned their stripes as coaches. They weren't considered top notch leaders until they earned it as coaches.

No, their recognition as great leaders came once they were a coach. Their ability to lead men was already present or they would not have been able to obtain the position they did.

You don't take a flier on a guy like Bill Cowher and hope he can lead men. You already know and accept he's inexperienced as a coach and obviously accept that going in knowing that part of his skill set will grow as he gains experience.

What was known, or at least HIGHLY suspected, was his ability to lead men. It had to be apparent during the interview process or else he wouldn't have sniffed that job.

Why else would a team at the highest of levels hire a guy with such little experience unless he exhibited such a strong ability to lead?

They went through the interview process and came away knowing that players would follow this guy. Experience be damned.

Because the guy possessed the leadership trait I've been referring too.

He didn't learn that on the job. He had that inside himself already.

Guys that have played for a legend like Chuck Noll don't immediately follow a guy with such little coaching experience and highly mediocre playing career (Cowher) unless the guy is a natural leader.

Bill was and players followed. Experience and past results be damned.

Good post, you've come a long way. Our time together has really paid dividends for you.

Your almost there. The one thing you omitted was the part about respect. You can't be a leader unless the people you lead have respect for you. No matter how many leadership qualities you have, you still need to be respected. In my world, respect is earned by setting examples.

In your world, is respect given or earned?

[955876]

They were coaches. They earned their stripes as coaches. They weren't considered top notch leaders until they earned it as coaches.

No, their recognition as great leaders came once they were a coach. Their ability to lead men was already present or they would not have been able to obtain the position they did.

You don't take a flier on a guy like Bill Cowher and hope he can lead men. You already know and accept he's inexperienced as a coach and obviously accept that going in knowing that part of his skill set will grow as he gains experience.

What was known, or at least HIGHLY suspected, was his ability to lead men. It had to be apparent during the interview process or else he wouldn't have sniffed that job.

Why else would a team at the highest of levels hire a guy with such little experience unless he exhibited such a strong ability to lead?

They went through the interview process and came away knowing that players would follow this guy. Experience be damned.

Because the guy possessed the leadership trait I've been referring too.

He didn't learn that on the job. He had that inside himself already.

Guys that have played for a legend like Chuck Noll don't immediately follow a guy with such little coaching experience and highly mediocre playing career (Cowher) unless the guy is a natural leader.

Bill was and players followed. Experience and past results be damned.

Good post, you've come a long way. Our time together has really paid dividends for you.

Your almost there. The one thing you omitted was the part about respect. You can't be a leader unless the people you lead have respect for you. No matter how many leadership qualities you have, you still need to be respected. In my world, respect is earned by setting examples.

In your world, is respect given or earned?

Respect is always earned. Never given. That's a "duh" statement.

Difference here is you have placed so much of the "earning respect" aspect on numbers while I have recognized yet looked past that to acknowledge there are MANY other variables.

And in a case such as Cowher, he had very little coaching experience and a lame playing career.

His internal make-up allowed him to command respect right from the get go. That trait is most often something you have or you do not.

It's why when talking about true leadership ones "stats" are such a small part.

And nothing in my post came from "our time together". You simply haven't been paying attention.

A more appropriate comment would be, you can lead a horse to water but cannot teach it to drink.

So after such a long, thirsty drought I'm very pleased to see you have finally quenched some of your thirst...

I'm pleased this exchange didn't go to waste.

Looking forward to a good season.

[jeemie]

In my world, respect is earned by setting examples.

The problem comes when you ay the only examples that count are HoF performance on the field.

When this is not true.

[Scunge]

The thing with Cowher was that he was a respected leader in college, the team captain, MVP and then he goes undrafted and works hard to make an NFL team as a special teams player. Only played 4 years and then his first coaching gig is as a special teams coach, then secondary, and then as a defensive coordinator for 3 seasons.

To me he earned respect at every step of the way along his career. He was never gifted athletically but was fortunate to have Marty take him under his wing and bring him along first to Cleveland and then to KC when he was coaching.

I saw nothing lame about how he worked hard to get to the NFL as a player and he paid his dues to become a head coach. Contrast that with Mike Singletary who was a 2nd round pick, Pro Bowl/Hall of Fame MLB and while he may be a good LB position coach he was terrible as a head coach. Being more talented and more accomplished as a player doesn't mean you will be a great head coach, I see great players struggle to become good coaches all the time.

[Legacy User]

In my world, respect is earned by setting examples.

The problem comes when you ay the only examples that count are HoF performance on the field.

When this is not true.

"HoF" is your word.

Is there a term for that type of misguided argument?

[zeke5123]

The thing with Cowher was that he was a respected leader in college, the team captain, MVP and then he goes undrafted and works hard to make an NFL team as a special teams player. Only played 4 years and then his first coaching gig is as a special teams coach, then secondary, and then as a defensive coordinator for 3 seasons.

To me he earned respect at every step of the way along his career. He was never gifted athletically but was fortunate to have Marty take him under his wing and bring him along first to Cleveland and then to KC when he was coaching.

I saw nothing lame about how he worked hard to get to the NFL as a player and he paid his dues to become a head coach. Contrast that with Mike Singletary who was a 2nd round pick, Pro Bowl/Hall of Fame MLB and while he may be a good LB position coach he was terrible as a head coach. Being more talented and more accomplished as a player doesn't mean you will be a great head coach, I see great players struggle to become good coaches all the time.

Which kind of goes to a few points:

1. Respect as a leader can be earned in many ways, not just via clutch play.

2. Respect as a leader is a necessary but insufficient condition to lead.

3. Respect as a player (I.e performing well on Sundays) does not necessarily translate to respect as a leader.

[955876]

I saw nothing lame about how he worked hard to get to the NFL as a player and he paid his dues to become a head coach.

You are taking my comment out of context. There was absolutely nothing lame about his process to get to the NFL or the dues he paid as a young coach.

He was under talented and hard work got him over the hump.

The "lame" part of my comment was directly related to his stats. Stats that according to some here would disqualify him from being a leader.

[jeemie]

In my world, respect is earned by setting examples.

The problem comes when you ay the only examples that count are HoF performance on the field.

When this is not true.

"HoF" is your word.

Is there a term for that type of misguided argument?

"HofF" is close enough for jazz for what you claimed.

[zeke5123]

In my world, respect is earned by setting examples.

The problem comes when you ay the only examples that count are HoF performance on the field.

When this is not true.

"HoF" is your word.

Is there a term for that type of misguided argument?

Dude, you are the guy who quotes 95's post that absolutely eviscerated your position and tried to make it sound like he was conceding your point. Jeemie is not committing the red herring here.

[Legacy User]

Ok taxman, maybe you can give me some examples of respected team leaders that fall outside of my criteria. And here's a hint, Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry don't count.

you're up

[Legacy User]

They were coaches. They earned their stripes as coaches. They weren't considered top notch leaders until they earned it as coaches.

No, their recognition as great leaders came once they were a coach. Their ability to lead men was already present or they would not have been able to obtain the position they did.

You don't take a flier on a guy like Bill Cowher and hope he can lead men. You already know and accept he's inexperienced as a coach and obviously accept that going in knowing that part of his skill set will grow as he gains experience.

What was known, or at least HIGHLY suspected, was his ability to lead men. It had to be apparent during the interview process or else he wouldn't have sniffed that job.

Why else would a team at the highest of levels hire a guy with such little experience unless he exhibited such a strong ability to lead?

They went through the interview process and came away knowing that players would follow this guy. Experience be damned.

Because the guy possessed the leadership trait I've been referring too.

He didn't learn that on the job. He had that inside himself already.

Guys that have played for a legend like Chuck Noll don't immediately follow a guy with such little coaching experience and highly mediocre playing career (Cowher) unless the guy is a natural leader.

Bill was and players followed. Experience and past results be damned.

You're making my point for me. At first, Cowher had leadership qualities, but was unproven for the role he was hired in. His success led to respect, which in turn helped him grow into a leader.

[jeemie]

Ok taxman, maybe you can give me some examples of respected team leaders that fall outside of my criteria. And here's a hint, Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry don't count.

you're up

Your question is loaded.

If I tell you Charlie Batch was a respected leader with the Steelers (he was), you'll simply disagree.

[zeke5123]

Ok taxman, maybe you can give me some examples of respected team leaders that fall outside of my criteria. And here's a hint, Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry don't count.

you're up

That is the point. We don't know who the leaders are because we aren't in the locker room. I could come up with arbitrary bullshit criteria for leadership as well AND then define leaders based on it. But that doesn't mean I have in any way defined leadership. It just means I found people to fit my arbitrary bullshit criteria. However, I do believe (but my memory is hazy) you have praised and defended Larry fuckin' Foote for his veteran leadership in the past. So, I guess there is one guy who breaks your self-created mold.

Nevertheless, instead of answering an impossible question (due to our mutual inability to see inside NFL locker rooms) I ask you what is wrong with the idea that you can garner other player's respect without being a star at your position? Or that being the best at your position does not necessarily translate into respect as a leader (it seems people never respected the T.O.'s of this world as leaders). Don't obfuscate by quoting a small piece and trying to change the discussion. Please, answer those two questions.

[Legacy User]

I mentioned in another post that when true and defined big time leaders don't emerge, other smaller groups will, like Larry Foote. But he was surrounded by big time on field leaders like Troy, Farrior, Hampton, Harrison and Ike Taylor. All of whom, in my mind, fit under a different hierarchal structure led by the true leader Dick Lebeau who was a HOF caliber player and coach.

In the simplest terms, a true leader in the NFL, is a guy who represents his franchise well on and off the field and someone you'd pay money to wear his jersey. And not just because its a new trendy name. An established guy. Kind if like when the entire Steeler team wore Lebeau and Bettis' jersey before Superbowls. Ultimate respect for those 2 as leaders