Ben speaks

[Jobu]

BR without AB is an unknown entity.

Two Super Bowl rings says differently.

[Legacy User]

Here’s some nuance, Swiss: you keep equating having more talent as meaning the team will be better and less talent as meaning it will be worse. Are you sure that the one follows the other, that “having more/less talent” = “team being better/worse”? Bc what some are claiming is that AB is elite in talent and an elite asshole so that his sticking around as he now is would do more harm than good. You may suppose that ABs talent is so great that no amount of disruptiveness on his part can overtake the benefits of his talents, but the idea that his assholeishness has outstripped the benefits of his talent is not unreasonable. You will say your take is reasonable. It is but most find the other position more so. We’ll see!

Yes Professor....I have made the determination, in my sovereign capacity to do so, that the objective benefit of this guy's talent outweighs the subjective and somewhat rumored disruptive effects of his "assholeishness. "

And Lit, I'm frankly a bit surprised that such a learned man as you resorts to the italicized word above.

Vulgarity and ugly neologisms are not incommensurate with having read a lot of old books.

AB quit on the team. That’s not a rumor. AB forced his way out of town. That’s not a rumor. You suppose playing hardball and keeping him would have been the way to go. I understand that.
You also think had hardball been played AB would get in line enough such that his talents would supersede actions that would follow from that unhappiness. That’s about all I feel like typing on an iPad.

[treat88]

Here’s some nuance, Swiss: you keep equating having more talent as meaning the team will be better and less talent as meaning it will be worse. Are you sure that the one follows the other, that “having more/less talent” = “team being better/worse”? Bc what some are claiming is that AB is elite in talent and an elite asshole so that his sticking around as he now is would do more harm than good. You may suppose that ABs talent is so great that no amount of disruptiveness on his part can overtake the benefits of his talents, but the idea that his assholeishness has outstripped the benefits of his talent is not unreasonable. You will say your take is reasonable. It is but most find the other position more so. We’ll see!

Yes Professor....I have made the determination, in my sovereign capacity to do so, that the objective benefit of this guy's talent outweighs the subjective and somewhat rumored disruptive effects of his "assholeishness. "

And Lit, I'm frankly a bit surprised that such a learned man as you resorts to the italicized word above.

I love ya, Swiss but.......it's like you don't understand exactly what this piece of shit did.

He forced his way off the team. It was a coordinated effort requiring a bullshit story of a problem with Roethlisberger.

He did it to get a new contract because the piece of shit (rightfully) understood he wasn't going to get anymore money from the Steelers.

It doesn't matter if his talent outweighed him being a piece of shit.

THE GUY WANTED A NEW CONTRACT AND KNEW HE WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE TO GET ONE.

So he orchestrated his way off the Steelers.

Not Ben's fault. AT ALL.

It wasn't anybody's fault except the piece of shit and his agent.

DESTROYED a legacy in Pittsburgh it took him nearly a decade to build.

He thinks the cash is worth it.

You and I both know it isn't.

He not only forced his way off the team, he intentionally minimized his trade value in the process. The whole process could have played out behind the scenes and been handled quietly between Brown and the Steelers with the exact same end result of him in another uniform. His need to be a public assclown dumped any hope the Steelers had of getting commensurate value for him in a deal.

They gave him what he wanted and he gave them the finger on the way out the door.

[Ice]

BR without AB is an unknown entity.

Two Super Bowl rings says differently.

One of the greatest drives and catches in Super Bowl history is also violently raising its hand to be called on.

[swissvale72]

BR without AB is an unknown entity.

Two Super Bowl rings says differently.

Last one 10 years ago.

[swissvale72]

Here’s some nuance, Swiss: you keep equating having more talent as meaning the team will be better and less talent as meaning it will be worse. Are you sure that the one follows the other, that “having more/less talent” = “team being better/worse”? Bc what some are claiming is that AB is elite in talent and an elite asshole so that his sticking around as he now is would do more harm than good. You may suppose that ABs talent is so great that no amount of disruptiveness on his part can overtake the benefits of his talents, but the idea that his assholeishness has outstripped the benefits of his talent is not unreasonable. You will say your take is reasonable. It is but most find the other position more so. We’ll see!

Yes Professor....I have made the determination, in my sovereign capacity to do so, that the objective benefit of this guy's talent outweighs the subjective and somewhat rumored disruptive effects of his "assholeishness. "

And Lit, I'm frankly a bit surprised that such a learned man as you resorts to the italicized word above.

Vulgarity and ugly neologisms are not incommensurate with having read a lot of old books.

AB quit on the team. That’s not a rumor. AB forced his way out of town. That’s not a rumor. You suppose playing hardball and keeping him would have been the way to go. I understand that.
You also think had hardball been played AB would get in line enough such that his talents would supersede actions that would follow from that unhappiness. That’s about all I feel like typing on an iPad.

I have no idea about the hardball deal, Lit. Been saying throughout that my primary contention is this wishful thinking, bordering on delusional, that somehow Steelers are now a better team minus Antonio Brown.

[Baltostiller]

BR without AB is an unknown entity.

Two Super Bowl rings says differently.

Ben threw 127 TD passes and won 60 regular season games and 2 super bowls without AB. I'd say it is the exact opposite.

[swissvale72]

I'm gonna play devils advocate here for a sec and side with swiss.

AB- BR telepathy is a known entity. We've seen it for years. Lots of catches, lots of splash plays, etc. AB is a talented guy. We all know what he brings.

BR without AB is an unknown entity. This team and it's offense has yet to be defined. Therefore, he (swiss) can't make the leap and say it's going to be better, until he sees it. A doubting thomas, so to speak, if you will, obviously. I personally have faith it will be better, more rounded, and will make defending them harder since BR won't constantly eyefucking AB and force the ball. Belichick knew if you shut AB down. . .

Here's what we REALLY don't know....

The extent to which Ben was forcing the ball to AB due to AB supposedly whining & bitching.....verusus, Ben going repeatedly to the guy on whom he could most count to get open and make the catch.

[955876]

Last one 10 years ago.

AB on team 9 of those 10 years.

[Jobu]

BR without AB is an unknown entity.

Two Super Bowl rings says differently.

Last one 10 years ago.

And...

[swissvale72]

Last one 10 years ago.

AB on team 9 of those 10 years.

So it's somehow AB's fault that Steelers didn't win a SB?

[955876]

Last one 10 years ago.

AB on team 9 of those 10 years.

So it's somehow AB's fault that Steelers didn't win a SB?

I didn’t say it was his fault. You made a point stating Ben hasn’t won a SB in 10 years.

I’m making the point he’s had AB pretty much those entire 10 years. Several being non-playoff years or one and done in the playoffs.

Basically, having AB on the team has not equated to postseason success.

And while it might not be his fault, he also hasn’t shown to be enough of a factor to change that tide either.

There are times in sports where the sum of the parts can be greater than the talent of the individual pieces. See NE if you need an example.

This team has been in disarray mentally for quite some time now. AB has been a factor in that.

I’m not one of those stating unequivocally that we will be better without him. At least on the field. At the same time, given the dipshit in aviators is still in charge and we were yet again a non-factor in the postseason I don’t feel we will be any worse.

The standard and all.

Basically, I don't think we win with AB on the team and Tomlin coach. Maybe we can without him given the offense will be forced to evolve.

Maybe not. But then, that pesky standard again.

This team needs unity and a cohesive locker room to win IMO as all the talent in the world can’t overcome the disharmony and nonsense that has been taking place.

[swissvale72]

I think it's equally irrelevant though, at this point in time, that Ben Roethlisberger won Super Bowls 10 & 13 years ago.

[955876]

But it’s not irrelevant that AB quit on the entire organization & fans with a playoff game on the line.

I get your point about the talent level on the field taking a hit.

However, what in the world can be done about it when you have an immature diva acting out like a spoiled 6 year old?

Give him more money?

Tell him he can skip all of training camp?

Tell him he Only needs to show up on game day?

Guarantee he will see X number of targets per game?

You don’t solve the problem of a spoiled little bitch by spoiling that bitch even more.

My biggest issue with the way it played out was how dummy Deuce announced to the league that he was implementing his own deadline. Essentially guaranteeing he gets lowballed.

[Kodiak]

Moss, TO, OchoCinco.....and now AB.

Never won a ring. If you can't admit the success Ben has had with a revolving door at WR, "next man up".....then at least acknowledge NE has proven you can plug-n-play pretty much every position except QB.

[swissvale72]

But it’s not irrelevant that AB quit on the entire organization & fans with a playoff game on the line.

I get your point about the talent level on the field taking a hit.

However, what in the world can be done about it when you have an immature diva acting out like a spoiled 6 year old?

Give him more money?

Tell him he can skip all of training camp?

Tell him he Only needs to show up on game day?

Guarantee he will see X number of targets per game?

You don’t solve the problem of a spoiled little bitch by spoiling that bitch even more.

My biggest issue with the way it played out was how dummy Deuce announced to the league that he was implementing his own deadline. Essentially guaranteeing he gets lowballed.

My major point, as I've said repeatedly, is that I'm not buying this fantasy that Steelers can lose this guy, get shit in return, coached by the same idiot, and somehow come out better.

Maybe they couldn't have salvaged AB, kept him on the team, quite possibly not.

[swissvale72]

Moss, TO, OchoCinco.....and now AB.

Never won a ring. If you can't admit the success Ben has had with a revolving door at WR, "next man up".....then at least acknowledge NE has proven you can plug-n-play pretty much every position except QB.

NE is coached by Bill Belichick, best coach in football. Steelers are coached by The Dullard Mike Tomlin. Therein lies the difference.

[955876]

My major point, as I've said repeatedly, is that I'm not buying this fantasy that Steelers can lose this guy, get shit in return, coached by the same idiot, and somehow come out better.

Are you able to buy that it is possible the AB situation got worse and ended up dragging the team down further?

If we make the playoffs and maybe even win a game are we not better?

[K_C_]

He not only forced his way off the team, he intentionally minimized his trade value in the process. The whole process could have played out behind the scenes and been handled quietly between Brown and the Steelers with the exact same end result of him in another uniform. His need to be a public assclown dumped any hope the Steelers had of getting commensurate value for him in a deal.

They gave him what he wanted and he gave them the finger on the way out the door.

GREAT, GREAT POINT.

Swiss, the piece of shit INTENTIONALLY TRIED TO FUCK YOUR FAVORITE TEAM OVER, so they could get as little as possible in a trade for this fuckstick.

It's like you either can't or won't look at the entire picture of this human yeast infection leaving.

[Kodiak]

AB's production will be replaced by committee.....G-UAR-AN-FUCKING-TEED.

Where AB will be missed is in critical, must-win situations. We have other players who can step up, but there's no debating that is when he will actually be missed.

Except that is not really determinant - it might matter, it might not (and, yes, in some cases removing the ego could be a positive). There is a significant chance, probably better than 50/50, that this team is not worse without AB. #7 is the only indispensable player on the field.

[swissvale72]

No argument about #7 being the only indispensable player. That said, #7 shoulda kept his fuckin' mouth shut after the Denver loss.

I'm not arguing that AB fucked the team over and was a fuckin' douchebag. I am saying though, that through the season's 15th game, we were all rooting like hell for this fuckin' douchebag.

Here's where I am...I WISH things could have been worked out with AB.

I don't think the product the Steelers put on the field will be better without him.

He was that fuckin' good....that even without all the douchebaggery, AB was mother-fuckin' productive.

[955876]

How would you feel about AB had we ended up losing that game against Cincy while the Ravens lost to Cleveland?

Lose a very winnable game all because AB was off pouting like a spoiled little cunt over personal BS.

Still in his corner then?

AB, and Bell to a larger degree (IMO) became crutches and allowed the offensive staff to become lazy.

For example, they had to actually get creative when Conner went down and Samuels was forced to make that start against NE.

They got lazy far too often when they could pencil in X number of carries for bell and X number of targets for AB.

Losing their talent forces our below the line coaching staff to come up with an actual plan rather than tie rinse repeat BS of handing it to Bell and forcing it to AB.

[Legacy User]

AB quit on the team. That’s not a rumor. AB forced his way out of town. That’s not a rumor. You suppose playing hardball and keeping him would have been the way to go. I understand that.
You also think had hardball been played AB would get in line enough such that his talents would supersede actions that would follow from that unhappiness. That’s about all I feel like typing on an iPad.

I have no idea about the hardball deal, Lit. Been saying throughout that my primary contention is this wishful thinking, bordering on delusional, that somehow Steelers are now a better team minus Antonio Brown.

The response as phrased is possibly misleading for two reasons.

First, it is misleading bc as phrased it perhaps pretends that ABs behavior has nothing to do with whether the team is better with or without him. What you should be posting for the sake of clarity is that you think the team would be better were AB still on the team AND acting as he was prior to getting traded bc that is the current incarnation of AB.

Second, it is perhaps misleading bc it suggests that people are simply saying the team will be better minus ABs talent. In fact, what people are arguing is that AB became a cancer to such an extent that he would make the team worse despite his talent had he been kept.

Would the team be better with AB on it acting like he did? All world talent skipping out on practice and bailing on his team and so forth? What good does the talent do when you decide to blow off the team?

You keep saying the product without AB will be inferior to a product that results from ABs services. Well, which AB? The one that exists now or the one that wasn’t acting like a douche bag? Because if he were still on the team, we’d have the douche bag.

[swissvale72]

How would you feel about AB had we ended up losing that game against Cincy while the Ravens lost to Cleveland?

Lose a very winnable game all because AB was off pouting like a spoiled little c*nt over personal BS.

Still in his corner then?

AB, and Bell to a larger degree (IMO) became crutches and allowed the offensive staff to become lazy.

For example, they had to actually get creative when Conner went down and Samuels was forced to make that start against NE.

They got lazy far too often when they could pencil in X number of carries for bell and X number of targets for AB.

Losing their talent forces our below the line coaching staff to come up with an actual plan rather than tie rinse repeat BS of handing it to Bell and forcing it to AB.

Just because I think that maybe, possibly, the Steelers could have worked things out with Antonio Brown, and just because I think the Steelers are most definitely a better team with him than without him...doesn't mean I'm "in his corner." My position has zero to do with my being an Antonio Brown fan; it has EVERYTHING to do with my being a Pittsburgh Steelers fan.

And...no need hypothesizing what if re: Steelers losing to Cinci and Ravens losing to Clowns. Neither happened.

[swissvale72]

AB quit on the team. That’s not a rumor. AB forced his way out of town. That’s not a rumor. You suppose playing hardball and keeping him would have been the way to go. I understand that.
You also think had hardball been played AB would get in line enough such that his talents would supersede actions that would follow from that unhappiness. That’s about all I feel like typing on an iPad.

I have no idea about the hardball deal, Lit. Been saying throughout that my primary contention is this wishful thinking, bordering on delusional, that somehow Steelers are now a better team minus Antonio Brown.

The response as phrased is possibly misleading for two reasons.

First, it is misleading bc as phrased it perhaps pretends that ABs behavior has nothing to do with whether the team is better with or without him. What you should be posting for the sake of clarity is that you think the team would be better were AB still on the team AND acting as he was prior to getting traded bc that is the current incarnation of AB.

Second, it is perhaps misleading bc it suggests that people are simply saying the team will be better minus ABs talent. In fact, what people are arguing is that AB became a cancer to such an extent that he would make the team worse despite his talent had he been kept.

Would the team be better with AB on it acting like he did? All world talent skipping out on practice and bailing on his team and so forth? What good does the talent do when you decide to blow off the team?

You keep saying the product without AB will be inferior to a product that results from ABs services. Well, which AB? The one that exists now or the one that wasn’t acting like a douche bag? Because if he were still on the team, we’d have the douche bag.

I've already said it, Lit. AB's douchebaggery doesn't trump his on-field production.

[Legacy User]

Well his douchebaggery included him blowing off the team and having other players threaten to tear his pads off if he tried to play. Hard to make the team better if your actions prevent you from getting on the field.

So, my point is that your position is reasonable, but the other side’s position is hardly “delusional.”

[swissvale72]

Well his douchebaggery included him blowing off the team and having other players threaten to tear his pads off if he tried to play. Hard to make the team better if your actions prevent you from getting on the field.

So, my point is that your position is reasonable, but the other side’s position is hardly “delusional.”

Did he become a douchebag all of a sudden? Gotta believe he was still a douchebag previous week when he caught 15 balls for a pair of TDs vs. Saints.

In most instances, I'm thinking ABs on-field production outweighed his douchebaggery. Being the hardest working player on the team throughout your career will sort of have those results.

[alancac98]

How would you feel about AB had we ended up losing that game against Cincy while the Ravens lost to Cleveland?

Lose a very winnable game all because AB was off pouting like a spoiled little c*nt over personal BS.

Still in his corner then?

AB, and Bell to a larger degree (IMO) became crutches and allowed the offensive staff to become lazy.

For example, they had to actually get creative when Conner went down and Samuels was forced to make that start against NE.

They got lazy far too often when they could pencil in X number of carries for bell and X number of targets for AB. I’m

Losing their talent forces our below the line coaching staff to come up with an actual plan rather than tie rinse repeat BS of handing it to Bell and forcing it to AB.

Couldn’t agree more

[Legacy User]

Who knows.

Point is, the position you oppose is hardly “delusional.”

Both positions are rational.

And...the level of douchebaggery, whatever it was prior to NO...became a whole other kettle of douchebag after...

There’s diva and then there is quitting on the team and forcing your way out. THAT is the guy who would be on the team next season had the Steelers refused to move him.

Edit: you seem to me to be arguing from the position that AB is not the dude who quit on the team and forced his way out of town, but the guy we had before that. The other side is looking at AB as the guy who quit on the team and forced his way out and considering whether that guy is worth it.

AB pre-NO would def make this team better. AB post-NO? Not sure that AB is worth keeping.

[Legacy User]

Did he become a douchebag all of a sudden?

He had been some level of douchebag for a long time. He suddenly became a bigger douchebag when JuJu was named team MVP.