Bud Dupree

[Scunge]

Oh, I totally agree, and look at what Dupree has done this year.

Depending on who you talk to he has either 3 or 4 passes defensed.

He has 1 INT and he returned it for a TD. He has 1 forced fumble.

Dupree has done all of that in the first 6 games this season. It is ironic that the logic was moving Dupree to ROLB would simplify things for him, not ask him to drop as much or whatever and yet he is statistically having his best season in terms of off-ball duties, dropping into coverage, making plays on the ball, coming up with an INT, scoring a TD, forcing a fumble. He almost had a second TD off of Watt's sack and strip of Ryan in the Atlanta game but the ball got kicked around and Fort ultimately landed on it. I know this narrative has been drawn up that he is always standing around, watching the action, but not this year, he seems to be around the football more, and the stats prove it, 3-4 passes defensed, 1 INT, 1 TD, 1 FF, there are some OLBs that don't do that in an entire season.

I do know that last last season it was reported that TJ Watt was 2nd in dropping into coverage and Dupree was ranked 5th in terms of dropping into coverage among edge rushers/OLBs.

Hard to get the numbers but I can't imagine that Atlanta's Vic Beasley drops into coverage as much as our OLBs, or that Seattle wastes Frank Clark in coverage.

I am not saying that Bud Dupree is the second coming of James Harrison or Lamar Woodley but he is not as bad as some of you make him out to be. He is in Jason Worilds territory to me and I think we would have signed him to a decent contract had he not just up and retired.

Edge rushers are hard to find and Dupree is somebody who can complement Watt. It is important that they not overpay for him though, I don't want to see him making $10 million per year or paid like he is a Von Miller that would be crazy of course.

And to your point, 7, yeah, how the edge rushers are used can inflate their sacks. I mean, if Frank Clark were taken out of that Seattle defense and used in our 3-4 would he be the same player? Would he lead this draft class with 27.5 sacks? I don't know for certain. Maybe he is the type of player that needs to be moving forward, needs more and more rush attempts to get those sacks. You look at Dupree's teammate at Kentucky, Smith, he is really more of a quasi DE/OLB, they have always had that type of player in their scheme, a chess piece that they can move around, line up everywhere, as an OLB, as a DE, part of a rotation. Smith through the 2018 season is playing 65% of the snaps but in previous years for the Ravens he has been at 50% or less. I think that helps a player if they are in a system where they are fresh and rotate.

Dupree? The Steelers have long thought it the best practice to leave them (OLBs) out there for most of the snaps. Bud has taken 87% of the snaps this year. Last year it was 81% but that needs some explanation. He did not play the first game of the year last season. So, he had 795 snaps of the 909 snaps in the remaining 15 games, so he was on the field for 87% of the snaps last season too.

Again, if you have your OLBs on the field so damn much, they are bound to get tired, it has to impact their ability to pass rush as the game wears on. We have seen a TJ Watt or a Dupree drop in coverage and try and cover a RB/WR/TE 30 yards down the field and then on the very next play expected to beat a 330 pound OT for a sack. You just don't see other teams do that with their edge rushers as often or like ever.

Some players, like Frank Clark in the Seattle defense he gets blows, he gets rest throughout a game and the season. He is playing 69% of the snaps this season, and last season he was at 67%. There is something to this, I think a player that is well rested is more effective as a pass rusher, it does make a difference.

[Suwanee88]

Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

Yep and we alll know Colbert will sign him to an extension.

[DP39]

I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.

[Legacy User]

DuPree has improved this season. Still, he's not making anyone forget Woodley & Harrison. He's on pace for 8 sacks, has 1 forced fumble, a pick 6 - He's not the biggest hole on the defense.

[steeledge]

DuPree has improved this season. Still, he's not making anyone forget Woodley & Harrison. He's on pace for 8 sacks, has 1 forced fumble, a pick 6 - He's not the biggest hole on the defense.

While I'm on record as one of those "Dupree Haters", I certainly can't argue with this...

[Havoc]

I would much rather have Dupree on the field than Jarvis Jones.

I would take Worilds over Dupree at this point, by the end of the season I might see it differently so yeah I could see the argument that Dupree is approaching Worilds territory.

Worilds had 22, 23 QB hits in last 2 seasons. I was starting to like him his final season and believe it really hurt the team when he decided he no longer wanted to play football.

[Legacy User]

Not trying to be a ball washer but thanks for the contributions.
Scunge...I think you put me in my place...lol
I have a h@rd on for Bud...its like I almost look to have an agenda on him but yet he is a solid system OLB.
Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next.

[steeledge]

Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next.

Artie is a major liability on this defense, and could be the difference between another Lombardi and another "almost but not quite" season...

...move along, there is no debate to be had here...

[burmanj]

"The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen."

I agree with everything youre saying Scunge.... but I disagree about the contract extension. The big unknown is the two young olb we have on our club and how they develop. We have Adams on the practice squad and If Ola comes back and plays well this year... I think Colbert will be happy to pay his 10 million + salary for next year and let all three battle it out next camp.

[W&M_Steeler]

Sorry KC, and sorry to the other Dupree haters out there, but the Steelers are looking at this and saying to themselves, hey he is improving, we did not reach for him, who else is doing better from that draft class? Frank Clark is clearly the best from that draft class but after that who knows?

The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen.

Question for consideration- is Bud Dupree better or worse than Clark Haggans?

[Legacy User]

Some players, like Frank Clark in the Seattle defense he gets blows, he gets rest throughout a game and the season. He is playing 69% of the snaps this season, and last season he was at 67%. There is something to this, I think a player that is well rested is more effective as a pass rusher, it does make a difference.

Agreed with your entire post, but wanted to comment on just this ^^

It's those edge rushers that are needed the most late in the fourth quarter when you're up by a couple and the other team has the ball. It's when WE need them the most to take some pressure off our secondary while the opposing qb takes to the air. That wasn't the case when Cincy matriculated the length of the field at the end of the first half Sunday, however.

I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.

And a million $ in fines for touching the qb's uniforms. I mean, the league is passing more because the league is making it more difficult, and expensive, to play defense.

Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next.

The only thing to debate is how and when to get rid of him, and how much we'll have to pay someone to take him off our hands.

Right now, I'd give a late fourth rounder just to have someone take him off the roster.

[Legacy User]

Excellent work by Scunge throughout here, and the Dupree debate is an interesting one because of the numbers he's put up relative to his peers. But there are some things that don't show up in stats, such as looking lost on big plays, or getting physically dominated in critical situations. Dupree's tape is such a mixed bag, because occasionally good things do happen for him as a result of him being in the right place at the right time, or using his athleticism (usually when no one is in his way). In mentioning Burns, "no instincts whatsoever" it highlights what has been frustrating to watch as the Steelers evaluate defensive talent in the draft. Football instincts seem placed way lower than they should in the evaluation process, and athletes who look the prototypical ideal are too often selected over guys with the better football instincts. Not every player can be Mike Vrabel (I still can't get over the career he had for NE after Steelers let him go), in terms of razor sharp instincts, but come on, it's all to easy to pick apart the thought process they have going on with these defensive guys they're hoping to coach up. The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.

[K_C_]

Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

Yep and we alll know Colbert will sign him to an extension.

Bingo.

The guy fucking blows.

Thank Christ for TJ Watt.

[SOCALSTEEL]

Look at this play by Bud!
https://twitter.com/alex_kozora/status/ ... 90402?s=21

[Legacy User]

Look at this play by Bud!
https://twitter.com/alex_kozora/status/ ... 90402?s=21

Could he be assigned to cover and release the RB to the flat? The tackle looks like a dancing penguin,

[86n96]

I mostly agree Franco, but that Vince Williams contract just blew my mind at the time and to me it sets a precedent that they will easily sign Bud to a new contract. And also Jesse James too for that matter.

To me if I am the GM I move on from all 3 of those players and don't pay them but that is not what will happen. Instead we will see Vince Williams make $6.2 million per year, we will see Dupree make $7 million per year and Jesse James resigned and making between $4.5-5 million per year. That is mind boggling to me. That is why we can't have nice things, we overspend on average players and thus have less money to pursue free agents with real talent, that can be real impact players, starters.

Will, I agree on Burns. That TD this past game that he gave up was the last straw for me. Did he think he had safety help over the top?? He is who he is, a player with no instincts whatsoever. At least Bud will make some plays, Artie? No, that kid is a lost cause. If they give him a 2nd contract Colbert needs his head examined for CTE.

Boyd shrugged inside and Artie bit hard and threw himself off balance. It was embarrassing. I would love to see Grimble push James down the depth chart and we draft a tight end. Unfortunately, Grimble didn't go to Penn State.

[cop1211]

I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.

Not when so many qb's are getting rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds.

[bradshaw2ben]

Look at this play by Bud!
https://twitter.com/alex_kozora/status/ ... 90402?s=21

Could he be assigned to cover and release the RB to the flat? The tackle looks like a dancing penguin,

His job is to disrupt the RB to the flat, so that pass rush can get home. In that thread, you'll see Greg Cosell's breakdown of Detroit doing it to James White & NE.

It's actually a nice play by Bud, who takes away two quick options and makes Dalton climb the pocket/allow pressure to take him out.

[jeemie]

I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.

Yes, but they’re pasing on those teams that drafted the other 2015 linebackers too...andnthey’re not keeping up with Dupree.

[R_S]

Look at this play by Bud!
https://twitter.com/alex_kozora/status/ ... 90402?s=21

Could he be assigned to cover and release the RB to the flat? The tackle looks like a dancing penguin,

His job is to disrupt the RB to the flat, so that pass rush can get home. In that thread, you'll see Greg Cosell's breakdown of Detroit doing it to James White & NE.

It's actually a nice play by Bud, who takes away two quick options and makes Dalton climb the pocket/allow pressure to take him out.

with that clip it's really taking criticism of Bud to an idiotic level. Who's the fucking dweeb who has that account? Seems like a guy that played more Madden than real football.

Jesus christ. He obviously had an assignment to either disrupt or cover the RB into the flat. He chips him and sees out of the corner of his eye that Dalton has abandoned the pass. So he redirects....ya know.....towards the ball!

[Steelafan77]

I thought Dupree had a decent game. IMHO, Dupree has began playing better. Up to his draft status? Hard to say yet. Dupree did some good things and had some struggles. Dupree definitely isn't as sloppy bad as before. And I forget who stated the whole standing there and watching plays unfold Dupree is gone, but I agree. He's much more assertive and in more plays instead of watching from a distance. What I don't understand is why does this DC insist on putting LB'ers on WR's? Why was Watt and Williams on WR's in this game? It's an instant mismatch that was an advantage for the offense. Also I thought the zone they played got eaten up by Dalton and his WR corps. Need lots of work on their zone defense.

[franco32]

I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

[Scunge]

Sometimes you are going to be have an offense go empty set on you, motion their RB out and have him lineup at WR. What do you do on defense? It is unavoidable sometimes. Joe Mixon did that, lined up wide at WR and Vince Williams was matching up on him. I agree that is a mismatch of epic proportions.

Again though, I keep banging this drum but we do have some LBers that are quality athletes, Dupree, Watt, Bostic, they are more equipped to drop into pass coverage, even LJ Fort although he was injured and did not play.

Watt, ran a 4.69 40, had a 6.79 3 cone, which is incredible and a very good 4.13 short shuttle at 252 pounds at the combine. Remember he was also a former TE in college who made the switch to defense. Dropping into coverage and running with TEs/RBs/WRs is not really that foreign to him, he has experience being on the other side of that.

But Williams? A 4.76 40 may not sound that bad but when you pair it with that 7.53 3 cone and that really bad 4.67 short shuttle, he is just really stiff and lumbering trying to cover anybody. I bet if Fort was completely healthy and ready to go they STILL would have had Vince Williams play 97% of the snaps against Cincy. Because green dot and all, because $20 million contract extension.

The Steelers defense is not going to be able to do their part if they continue to have Vince Williams out there playing 95-100% of the snaps. Teams are aware of the achilles heels of our defense. Williams and Burns. Teams target both of them repeatedly every game and have success and it is only going to get worse and worse.

Morgan Burnett and Jon Bostic and and LJ Fort and Matthew Thomas have to see more snaps at Williams expense. And Cam Sutton has to be given a chance to unseat Burns at CB. If the Steelers start to make those changes this defense may become a strength down the stretch. If not, the elite QBs are going to carve us up.

[Minkah'n History]

I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

Agreed, how many times has Dupree blitzed compared to the rest? How many snaps has he played compared to the rest? Sack numbers by themselves don’t tell the accurate story.

[Scunge]

I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

I am guilty of using stats to try and argue my points of view but sometimes I just don't get stats and how they are meaningful or how they apply to the issue at hand.

So Dupree only had '40 pressures' from 354 rushes. My question to you Franco is this, are 'pressures' the same thing as a 'quarterback hurry'? Are the two terms interchangeable, do they both mean the same thing?

If so then maybe that is the reason Gruden traded Khalil Mack to the Bears because he only had 52 last season? I mean if some piece of shit like Dupree gets 40 then surely Mack should have been able to do much better than 52, right? Aaron Donald only had 48.5. Von Miller had 53. Demarcus Lawrence supposedly led the NFL with 55.

Now granted maybe I don't understand this, but is 40 really that awful if the NFL leader last season had 55??

I find PFF and their stats and scientific analysis to be overkill for the most part. Please, somebody lighten me, what the hell is the difference between a sack, a QB hit, and a pressure, or quarterback hurry??

How come I can find some sites that say Von Miller had 53 pressures or hurries and then PFF proudly proclaims that he had 83 'total pressures'??

Well, which is it? Who is right? Who is wrong?

So, Bud Dupree only had 354 rushes but he played 795 snaps last season. That means he was only pass rushing 44% of the time that he was on the field. I wonder how often he dropped into coverage? Again, this stuff will drive you nuts, but, let me stumble through this, he didn't play the first game, Kizer of Cleveland had 30 pass attempts, the opposing team collectively for the year only had 499 pass attempts, so the maximum pass attempts that Dupree could have been on the field for was 469?

469 pass attempts by the opposing offense from games 2-16. And Dupree supposedly rushed 354 times? That means he might have only pass rushed 75% of the time? That he was dropping into coverage 25% of the time??

Again, these top pass rushers, the Von Miller's the Macks, the Demarcus Lawrence's are they only pass rushing 75% of the time? Are they dropping 25% of the time?

I know Cam Heyward supposedly led the team with 62 hurries or pressures, etc, but he was most likely not dropping 25% of the time on passing downs was he? So for Bud to have fewer opportunities and to have 40, that is somehow cringe worthy? Really??

If Bud had rushed for everyone of those pass attempts, all 469 of them at his 11% pressure rate according to PFF then he would have had 53 pressures!! The same as Von Miller right??

[franco32]

As I said, I have my issues with PFF. There is human judgement going on to characterize something as a "pressure". Heck, the same guy at PFF is not measuring all the players so they have different humans with different standards judging players across the spectrum.

What I do know is that those stats ring true to me having watched Dupree for three years. My definition of a pressure is either influencing a throw or hitting a QB without getting a sack. In looking at Dupree and his famous arc, I don't think he's generating pressure on more than 1 in 10 or, at best, 2 in 10 rushes.

The other problem with stats, as I mentioned, is that they don't account for chips and double teams. 55 or 60 pressures might be very good if you are being constantly double teamed or chipped. In Bud's case, no team ever cares about him. He's almost always just 1 on 1 and fails. That's a big problem for our D. It's a huge reason we don't get good pressure from a 4 man rush, and it's probably why Butler is obsessed with these stupid telegraphed corner blitzes that are terribly disguised.

[Scunge]

I totally understand where you are coming from Franco, I myself was thinking this offseason that Dupree was playing his last season as a Steeler. I felt he would just be meh, and that the Steelers would cut him, get out from under that 5th year option of $9.2 million and they would look elsewhere.

But through 6 games, he has changed my mind. I do think he is playing better, that he is approaching the level of play that we got from Jason Worilds. Neither of them are ever going to be confused with Harrison or Woodley but I think the Steelers will resign him.

In terms of pressure and sacks, and him being better this season, I do see it. I have seen plays where he has gotten a double team, where he did hit the QB. Last season he had two fines for hitting Alex Smith and Matt Moore, the first was $18,000 the second was $24,000. He DOES touch the QBs, there is proof right there. In terms of being run up the arc by OTs, it is different this year, he is shortening that arc, so to speak. Used to be that a QB did not ever have to move, he would be redirected way way back behind the QB. This year? He is turning it more into the QB where the QB has to move, move up in the pocket, has to help his tackle out by moving. That is improvement, if a QB has to move and then reset himself, his base, that is progress.

I am not proclaiming him to be the next Von Miller but he is improving and is still young and seems to be playing much better with the position switch. And who knows? Maybe he will give us a very good hometown discount and settle for lesser contract??

One last thing, the sacks are not all just style over substance this year. Haven't you seen the graphics where we were ranked 1st in QB pressure this season? It was just a game or two ago they were showing that? Even last year weren't we in the top 5 for pressure, ranked 9th overall for all of the bogus PFF metrics for pressure?

[Legacy User]

Excellent work by Scunge throughout here, and the Dupree debate is an interesting one because of the numbers he's put up relative to his peers. But there are some things that don't show up in stats, such as looking lost on big plays, or getting physically dominated in critical situations. Dupree's tape is such a mixed bag, because occasionally good things do happen for him as a result of him being in the right place at the right time, or using his athleticism (usually when no one is in his way). In mentioning Burns, "no instincts whatsoever" it highlights what has been frustrating to watch as the Steelers evaluate defensive talent in the draft. Football instincts seem placed way lower than they should in the evaluation process, and athletes who look the prototypical ideal are too often selected over guys with the better football instincts. Not every player can be Mike Vrabel (I still can't get over the career he had for NE after Steelers let him go), in terms of razor sharp instincts, but come on, it's all to easy to pick apart the thought process they have going on with these defensive guys they're hoping to coach up. The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.

well stated...I think when I look at 1st round on defense I unfairly expect a fast learning curve and one to cause disruption like Myles Garrett.

[COR-TEN]

I totally understand where you are coming from Franco, I myself was thinking this offseason that Dupree was playing his last season as a Steeler. I felt he would just be meh, and that the Steelers would cut him, get out from under that 5th year option of $9.2 million and they would look elsewhere.

But through 6 games, he has changed my mind. I do think he is playing better, that he is approaching the level of play that we got from Jason Worilds. Neither of them are ever going to be confused with Harrison or Woodley but I think the Steelers will resign him.

In terms of pressure and sacks, and him being better this season, I do see it. I have seen plays where he has gotten a double team, where he did hit the QB. Last season he had two fines for hitting Alex Smith and Matt Moore, the first was $18,000 the second was $24,000. He DOES touch the QBs, there is proof right there. In terms of being run up the arc by OTs, it is different this year, he is shortening that arc, so to speak. Used to be that a QB did not ever have to move, he would be redirected way way back behind the QB. This year? He is turning it more into the QB where the QB has to move, move up in the pocket, has to help his tackle out by moving. That is improvement, if a QB has to move and then reset himself, his base, that is progress.

I am not proclaiming him to be the next Von Miller but he is improving and is still young and seems to be playing much better with the position switch. And who knows? Maybe he will give us a very good hometown discount and settle for lesser contract??

One last thing, the sacks are not all just style over substance this year. Haven't you seen the graphics where we were ranked 1st in QB pressure this season? It was just a game or two ago they were showing that? Even last year weren't we in the top 5 for pressure, ranked 9th overall for all of the bogus PFF metrics for pressure?

Thanks for posting, scunge. You make very reasonable and sensible arguments.

[Pabst]

The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.

The last first round safety taken by the Steelers also looked lost during his rookie campaign. He turned out OK.

There's a weird dynamic on this board - we tend to bitch when Tomlin doesn't play rookies immediately, then we bitch when those guys play like.....rookies.