Pirates vs. Brewers - Game 128

[Jobu]

man..great winner!! one game at a time!! need sat win!!.creeping back in race!

Exactly bam. No sense in looking past the next game. Time is quickly ticking away. The only way to dig out of this hole they put themselves in, is one game at a time.
It ain't over til it's over.

[Legacy User]

Raise it brother!

We are going to beat these fucks in this series!!! Let's GO!

[Legacy User]

fasten the belts boys..here comes 6-1-1-1...I hope the 3 pitchers we put in perform!! personally id of left locke in another inning or 2..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zBhRvQIqW0

I was feeling a bit nostalgic. This is the complete game #7 of the 1971 World Series.
Please note at about 1:59:30 -- Bottom of the 9th inning. Pirates up 2-1, needing 3 outs to go. Whole season on the line.

NO ONE UP IN THE PIRATES BULLPEN ... Murtaugh was going with his horse, Steve Blass, all the way.
Just thought some of you young whipper snappers would like to see how baseball was once managed / played.

[Legacy User]

fasten the belts boys..here comes 6-1-1-1...I hope the 3 pitchers we put in perform!! personally id of left locke in another inning or 2..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zBhRvQIqW0

I was feeling a bit nostalgic. This is the complete game #7 of the 1971 World Series.
Please note at about 1:59:30 -- Bottom of the 9th inning. Pirates up 2-1, needing 3 outs to go. Whole season on the line.

NO ONE UP IN THE PIRATES BULLPEN ... Murtaugh was going with his horse, Steve Blass, all the way.
Just thought some of you young whipper snappers would like to see how baseball was once managed / played.

That's the way, bro! Go with the horse that brung you.

[SteelPro]

fasten the belts boys..here comes 6-1-1-1...I hope the 3 pitchers we put in perform!! personally id of left locke in another inning or 2..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zBhRvQIqW0

I was feeling a bit nostalgic. This is the complete game #7 of the 1971 World Series.
Please note at about 1:59:30 -- Bottom of the 9th inning. Pirates up 2-1, needing 3 outs to go. Whole season on the line.

NO ONE UP IN THE PIRATES BULLPEN ... Murtaugh was going with his horse, Steve Blass, all the way.
Just thought some of you young whipper snappers would like to see how baseball was once managed / played.

Uh yes, the way the game used to be managed and played. It was better then, right? or was it?

The old timers lament how old school closers would nail down the final 2 or 3 innings to close out a game. 1960 Elroy Face, now that is what a closer should be. But if you really dig into Face's stats you get an understanding of why the game changed.

Elroy Face pitched in 68 games in 1960. He finished 61 of them. 43 times he entered before the 9th inning. So he closed out a lot of games going well over an inning. Of course the longer he went the less effective he got.


8th inning ERA - 2.37
9th inning ERA - 3.42


Same case can be made for Dave Giusti in 71. 32 of the 58 games he pitched he entered before the 9th inning.

8th inning ERA - 1.73
9th inning ERA - 3.57



And Tekulve in 79. 56 of the 94 games he pitched he entered before the 9th inning.

8th inning ERA - 1.84
9th inning ERA - 3.19



As for Locke last night. He walked 6 batters in 6 innings. Anyone that believes he should have stayed out another inning is nuts.

[Legacy User]

fasten the belts boys..here comes 6-1-1-1...I hope the 3 pitchers we put in perform!! personally id of left locke in another inning or 2..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zBhRvQIqW0

I was feeling a bit nostalgic. This is the complete game #7 of the 1971 World Series.
Please note at about 1:59:30 -- Bottom of the 9th inning. Pirates up 2-1, needing 3 outs to go. Whole season on the line.

NO ONE UP IN THE PIRATES BULLPEN ... Murtaugh was going with his horse, Steve Blass, all the way.
Just thought some of you young whipper snappers would like to see how baseball was once managed / played.

ive watched that game before too..awesome ....I remember playing sick so I could watch several of these weekday games..i think this game 7 was sat! remember running around neighborhood and everyone celebrating!!

[jeemie]

Unfortunately the seven game skid dug enough of a hole that if we don't get a sweep this weekend, I won't really feel like much was accomplished.

[jeemie]

fasten the belts boys..here comes 6-1-1-1...I hope the 3 pitchers we put in perform!! personally id of left locke in another inning or 2..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zBhRvQIqW0

I was feeling a bit nostalgic. This is the complete game #7 of the 1971 World Series.
Please note at about 1:59:30 -- Bottom of the 9th inning. Pirates up 2-1, needing 3 outs to go. Whole season on the line.

NO ONE UP IN THE PIRATES BULLPEN ... Murtaugh was going with his horse, Steve Blass, all the way.
Just thought some of you young whipper snappers would like to see how baseball was once managed / played.

Uh yes, the way the game used to be managed and played. It was better then, right? or was it?

The old timers lament how old school closers would nail down the final 2 or 3 innings to close out a game. 1960 Elroy Face, now that is what a closer should be. But if you really dig into Face's stats you get an understanding of why the game changed.

Elroy Face pitched in 68 games in 1960. He finished 61 of them. 43 times he entered before the 9th inning. So he closed out a lot of games going well over an inning. Of course the longer he went the less effective he got.


8th inning ERA - 2.37
9th inning ERA - 3.42


Same case can be made for Dave Giusti in 71. 32 of the 58 games he pitched he entered before the 9th inning.

8th inning ERA - 1.73
9th inning ERA - 3.57



And Tekulve in 79. 56 of the 94 games he pitched he entered before the 9th inning.

8th inning ERA - 1.84
9th inning ERA - 3.19



As for Locke last night. He walked 6 batters in 6 innings. Anyone that believes he should have stayed out another inning is nuts.

I know I found an article somewhere that shows adding short inning relief specialists has not statistically improved the effectiveness of bullpens overall.

Wish I had posted it when I found it because now I can't remember the search terms I used to find it.

Oh well...I will keep looking.

[SteelPro]

I've seen analysis where statistically it is a push but from a roster cost efficiency aspect it is better. Those 5th, 6th, and 7th bullpen arms the cheapest players on the roster and the easiest to replace. And if you are going to have a large 7 man bullpen you might as well limit your best relievers to 1 inning stints where they will be most effective.

[jeemie]

I've seen analysis where statistically it is a push but from a roster cost efficiency aspect it is better. Those 5th, 6th, and 7th bullpen arms the cheapest players on the roster and the easiest to replace. And if you are going to have a large 7 man bullpen you might as well limit your best relievers to 1 inning stints where they will be most effective.

Yes...those guys are cheap. I'll give you that.

Be interesting to see if you lose anything by having a shorter bench because that's the cost of going with 12 pitchers.

Wonder if it would be better instead to go back to the days of the four man rotation and get an extra bench player?

The fifth start of most teams' rotations is usually a turd anyway.

[Legacy User]

the 6-1-1-1 worked last nite..its great in theory and on paper..
its been a failure for the bucs this year more times then we can count.. why we near top in baseball for blown saves! and that doesn't include the 6-8th inning fiascos..my biggest beef is taking out a hot pitcher for no reason..or a one inng pitcher who threw 10 pitches with 3 ks and hes taken out cause he pitched an inning; no other reason. I think bucs pen has been better then now currently and the changing pitchers just to change pitchers late is playing with fire.. I hope the system works tnite vs brewers.im like jeemie;; I think bucs need sweep!!! and a hot streak to follow..limping into playffs never works out..

[SteelPro]

the 6-1-1-1 worked last nite..its great in theory and on paper..
its been a failure for the bucs this year more times then we can count.. why we near top in baseball for blown saves! and that doesn't include the 6-8th inning fiascos..my biggest beef is taking out a hot pitcher for no reason..or a one inng pitcher who threw 10 pitches with 3 ks and hes taken out cause he pitched an inning; no other reason. I think bucs pen has been better then now currently and the changing pitchers just to change pitchers late is playing with fire.. I hope the system works tnite vs brewers.im like jeemie;; I think bucs need sweep!!! and a hot streak to follow..limping into playffs never works out..

You make it out like the Pirates are the only team that manages their bullpen like this. It works fine for 80% of teams every year. Bullpens are volatile. That is the nature of the beast. And they aren't taking pitchers out for no reason. They are taking them out because the longer they go the worse they perform. And the more pitches they throw the less likely they will be available for the next game. Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

[jeemie]

the 6-1-1-1 worked last nite..its great in theory and on paper..
its been a failure for the bucs this year more times then we can count.. why we near top in baseball for blown saves! and that doesn't include the 6-8th inning fiascos..my biggest beef is taking out a hot pitcher for no reason..or a one inng pitcher who threw 10 pitches with 3 ks and hes taken out cause he pitched an inning; no other reason. I think bucs pen has been better then now currently and the changing pitchers just to change pitchers late is playing with fire.. I hope the system works tnite vs brewers.im like jeemie;; I think bucs need sweep!!! and a hot streak to follow..limping into playffs never works out..

You make it out like the Pirates are the only team that manages their bullpen like this. It works fine for 80% of teams every year. Bullpens are volatile. That is the nature of the beast. And they aren't taking pitchers out for no reason. They are taking them out because the longer they go the worse they perform. And the more pitches they throw the less likely they will be available for the next game. Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

I don't know...games like when Watson only needed 6 pitches to blow through the 8th inning...you don't have to go to the next guy "just because".

At least last night they used up Axford and Wilson and gave Watson and Melancon a breather.

But I will agree the main reason the bullpen has failed this year is because there's only been a couple truly reliable guys (Watson, Hughes, Melancon) and the rest has been dreck.

And Melancon, good as he has been, does not really have closer material.

Wilson could be the closer if he'd just learn some goddam control.

[Legacy User]

Unfortunately the seven game skid dug enough of a hole that if we don't get a sweep this weekend, I won't really feel like much was accomplished.

While I would love nothing more than a sweep of these fucks, I think that is raising the bar of expectations a bit too high. A series win gets us one game closer and establishes that we are capable not only of beating these fuckers in their house, but also doing well against a divisional rival. And quite simply puts us back on track. The 7 game skid might have dashed our division hopes, but anything is possible, and we're certainly not out of that. I think a WC spot is more likely--at this point. A lot can change over a week or so.

[Legacy User]

the 6-1-1-1 worked last nite..its great in theory and on paper..
its been a failure for the bucs this year more times then we can count.. why we near top in baseball for blown saves! and that doesn't include the 6-8th inning fiascos..my biggest beef is taking out a hot pitcher for no reason..or a one inng pitcher who threw 10 pitches with 3 ks and hes taken out cause he pitched an inning; no other reason. I think bucs pen has been better then now currently and the changing pitchers just to change pitchers late is playing with fire.. I hope the system works tnite vs brewers.im like jeemie;; I think bucs need sweep!!! and a hot streak to follow..limping into playffs never works out..

You make it out like the Pirates are the only team that manages their bullpen like this. It works fine for 80% of teams every year. Bullpens are volatile. That is the nature of the beast. And they aren't taking pitchers out for no reason. They are taking them out because the longer they go the worse they perform. And the more pitches they throw the less likely they will be available for the next game. Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

I don't know...games like when Watson only needed 6 pitches to blow through the 8th inning...you don't have to go to the next guy "just because".

At least last night they used up Axford and Wilson and gave Watson and Melancon a breather.

But I will agree the main reason the bullpen has failed this year is because there's only been a couple truly reliable guys (Watson, Hughes, Melancon) and the rest has been dreck.

And Melancon, good as he has been, does not really have closer material.

Wilson could be the closer if he'd just learn some goddam control.

While I'm a fan of how things use to be when it comes to pitchers, this is the standard today. We did it last year too, the difference is what you pointed out, most of what we have in the pen this year is pretty bad. And even 2 of the 3 guys you noted aren't as reliable as they were most of last season (except for Huey who is actually better this year, one of the only pen guys who is). If the guy does his job, this is not really an issue.

[Legacy User]

the 6-1-1-1 worked last nite..its great in theory and on paper..
its been a failure for the bucs this year more times then we can count.. why we near top in baseball for blown saves! and that doesn't include the 6-8th inning fiascos..my biggest beef is taking out a hot pitcher for no reason..or a one inng pitcher who threw 10 pitches with 3 ks and hes taken out cause he pitched an inning; no other reason. I think bucs pen has been better then now currently and the changing pitchers just to change pitchers late is playing with fire.. I hope the system works tnite vs brewers.im like jeemie;; I think bucs need sweep!!! and a hot streak to follow..limping into playffs never works out..

You make it out like the Pirates are the only team that manages their bullpen like this. It works fine for 80% of teams every year. Bullpens are volatile. That is the nature of the beast. And they aren't taking pitchers out for no reason. They are taking them out because the longer they go the worse they perform. And the more pitches they throw the less likely they will be available for the next game. Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

I don't know...games like when Watson only needed 6 pitches to blow through the 8th inning...you don't have to go to the next guy "just because".

At least last night they used up Axford and Wilson and gave Watson and Melancon a breather.

But I will agree the main reason the bullpen has failed this year is because there's only been a couple truly reliable guys (Watson, Hughes, Melancon) and the rest has been dreck.

And Melancon, good as he has been, does not really have closer material.

Wilson could be the closer if he'd just learn some goddam control.

I agree 100%...I know other teams do it..but with pirates its not working as well.. they have no closer I want to see in game in 9th and feel good! they have several guys who u just hope don't start walking guys..bull pen is this teams soft underbelly.. they over come the shit at 1st and pedro throwing to upper deck..but the bull pen weak sisters are killing them way to much.

[Legacy User]

the 6-1-1-1 worked last nite..its great in theory and on paper..
its been a failure for the bucs this year more times then we can count.. why we near top in baseball for blown saves! and that doesn't include the 6-8th inning fiascos..my biggest beef is taking out a hot pitcher for no reason..or a one inng pitcher who threw 10 pitches with 3 ks and hes taken out cause he pitched an inning; no other reason. I think bucs pen has been better then now currently and the changing pitchers just to change pitchers late is playing with fire.. I hope the system works tnite vs brewers.im like jeemie;; I think bucs need sweep!!! and a hot streak to follow..limping into playffs never works out..

You make it out like the Pirates are the only team that manages their bullpen like this. It works fine for 80% of teams every year. Bullpens are volatile. That is the nature of the beast. And they aren't taking pitchers out for no reason. They are taking them out because the longer they go the worse they perform. And the more pitches they throw the less likely they will be available for the next game. Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

Relax Pro. 711 or 6111 is what all the cool kids are doing today. It won't change back to the way it was. Know why? Because 711 takes away the blame from Hurdle and all his colleagues. We all do it, so if we all do it, and it doesn't work, I just did what anyone else would have done, right? Blame the pitcher(s) for blowing the game and the boilerplate plan.

If I try to get my starter five innings for a win, and he bombs, I can just say I wanted to save my bullpen. If my closer bombs I simply point out that my closer is my closer. The only real question is about setup guy X vs. setup guy Y being chosen, and I can go to my pie charts and slide rules and show how they have matched up in the past against the lineup they faced tonight, or I can use the lefty/lefty righty/righty argument. Anyway you slice it, Hurdle has an answer ready to go. In fairness, so do all the other cool kids.

[JackLambert58]