Josh Norman

[stinger8]

Wife and I had dinner at a restaurant in San Francisco that proudly stated on the top of the menu they were a no tip restaurant. The price of the meal included a living wage for their employees to include healthcare & paid time off.

I thought oh that’s nice.

Until it became apparent the service was among the worst we had ever had given what you’d typically expect from a place of that caliber.

Example: what would you like to drink? We will have a couple glass of Cabernet. He proceeds to bring only one and is gone so quick doesn’t even notice we are holding our hand up trying to get his attention for the second glass.

It finally came with the meal.

Example two. We would like to get our desert to go and will be walking back to our hotel down the street. Will it melt before we get there?

Oh no he says. You’ll be fine. It’s right down the street.

Cool we will take two to go.

Waiter proceeds to bring desert but fails to bring back my AMEX card. We sit there for an additional 10 minutes watching him joking around with another server in the back while our desert melts.

There was more. I’d much prefer to tip.

Thanks 95, I would have picked you to be the dude who has an issue with someone being paid a LIVING WAGE. I am sure you are correct that the service was inferior (your opinion that I am sure is absolutely objective) because you infer the waiter was being paid a living wage so was on cruise control, taking it easy, cause life on a waiters salary must be so cushy. I am certain you had no preconceptions whats ever when you read about the no tip policies.

What are you doing in Frisco anyway, the town is full of homeless drug addicts and people looking for handouts, no? Why not just stay in your comfy zone of rednecks and "patriots"?

Just as an aside I have had plenty of experiences with shitty service at restaurants where tipping is required yet I never once said "this tipping system is not working I would rather go to a restaurant that does not ask for tips"

Oh 1 more I travel to Europe plenty (3 times this year) and tipping is not significant there no where near 20% (which is fuckin joke), the wait people get paid a living wage, the service is always very good so there goes your asinine theory.

If you tried just a bit harder you might have been able to squeeze even more conjecture and bogus assumptions in that garbage retort.

The only thing that is garbage is you

[955876]

Ya, actually wanting both glasses of wine when dining at a nice French restaurant with your wife or not having your desert melt due to neglect on the part of the waiter is so unreasonable...

I should have been happy knowing that while my dinner service was crap my waiter was “earning” a living wage for doing nothing more than walking items to and from the kitchen and then failing to even do that adequately. The nerve of me for even getting upset.

We just have a different mindset. You want equality simply for showing up.

I’d prefer to pay extra for exceptional service. I’m actually a very generous tipper. Rarely give the standard 15% and typically give 20% as my own personal standard. I do so because I recognize those who work as wait staff don’t get paid much by the hour.

You see, the actual job requires virtually no skill. Thus the low hourly rate. Almost anyone can write down an order on paper and then walk items back and forth from the kitchen.

Their value add is how their interaction with you either enhances or detracts from your dining experience.

When dining or getting drinks/appetizers at the places I frequent regularly near my home or office I hover at 30%-40% at times. Shit, I’ve left $100 tip before after getting nothing more than a couple bourbons after work.

That leads to me receiving excellent service and treatment from the places I frequent. And I feel good about it knowing I’m helping in a very direct way.

Better IMO than having that decision made for me.

The personal attacks are nice though. Par for the course when dealing with people that operate with your type of mindset.

[Kodiak]

You see, the actual job requires virtually no skill. Thus the low hourly rate. Almost anyone can write down an order on paper and then walk items back and forth from the kitchen.

Yeah, really not intended to be a career. I wonder how quickly a high school guidance counselor gets fired for suggesting someone be a waitress.

Eventually we'll get around to equality for ugly people, and demand prostitution be legal AND free.

Life isn't fair. If the waitress doesn't get paid enough, she can go work at another restaurant. What if she doesn't have that choice, you say? Then your argument is essentially for a guaranteed income because she's basically unemployable. Funny thing is, all the guaranteed income experiments I've seen are way less than minimum wage. Go figure.

[955876]

That’s part of the goal Kodiak. Universal income that is.

Paid to do nothing.

Well, nothing except become dependent.

[Kodiak]

That’s part of the goal Kodiak. Universal income that is.

Paid to do nothing.

Well, nothing except become dependent.

And, you know, I think unemployment most places maxes out around $10 per hour. If you were making minimum wage, you'd get a much lower benefit. $10 an hour is enough for an individual. Not enough to raise a family, but then that's not really the point. Two parents making $10 per hour is $42k per year - more than 35% of households. That has implications that go way beyond economics.

The lowest on the economic latter are always going to struggle. Raise their wages, and cost of living is going to follow - tax the landlord to give his tenant more money, and the landlord will raise rent. But economics is not in the progressive toolbox. I can sympathize with the concept of a living wage, but what differentiates me from progressives is that feelings are not a substitute for logic.

You don't suppose people would go along with paying for a "living wage" by eliminating welfare benefits? There would be no "need", right?

[SteelPro]

So 5% is a pretty standard tip in the EU? Asking because I’m traveling thru Germany and Austria in early September. I’ll be cycling the Danube bike path from Regensburg to Vienna.

Honestly, many Europeans don't bother to tip at all. All I was saying is that it is myth that no one tips. It sure as shit is not 15 or 20%. 5% is my personal choice. Staff are always appreciative.

Also: man am I jealous. Sounds like you're going to have an amazing time.

I fucking love me some Deutschland! Sehr schön!

Yeah, I’m counting down the days like a kid at christmas. Been planning this adventure for a couple of years. I’ll be biking about 70km a day and staying in Pensions or AirBnBs along the way. Especially looking forward to the final few days in Vienna.

[stinger8]

So 5% is a pretty standard tip in the EU? Asking because I’m traveling thru Germany and Austria in early September. I’ll be cycling the Danube bike path from Regensburg to Vienna.

Honestly, many Europeans don't bother to tip at all. All I was saying is that it is myth that no one tips. It sure as shit is not 15 or 20%. 5% is my personal choice. Staff are always appreciative.

Also: man am I jealous. Sounds like you're going to have an amazing time.

I fucking love me some Deutschland! Sehr schön!

Yeah, I’m counting down the days like a kid at christmas. Been planning this adventure for a couple of years. I’ll be biking about 70km a day and staying in Pensions or AirBnBs along the way. Especially looking forward to the final few days in Vienna.

Steelpro I was in Vienna in May, very beautiful city, great architecture, clean and shiny compared to other big tourist places along the Danube. It is pricey compared to Prague or Budapest.

If you like art and have time two great galleries below recommend these along with the naschmarkt and if time trip to hills about an hour outside town over looking the wine region great view and awesome stroll down to cool Bavarian style restaurants and good wine.

https://www.naschmarkt-vienna.com/

https://www.albertina.at/en/

https://www.belvedere.at/palaces

Enjoy

[Donnie Brasco]

That’s part of the goal Kodiak. Universal income that is.

Paid to do nothing.

Well, nothing except become dependent.

You'd think that no one ever read Harrison Bergeron growing up to realize how ridiculous a notion these things are

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101 ... n-bergeron

[Donnie Brasco]

Europe has different social norms than the US. Tips aren't 15%-20% like they are in the US, with businesses expecting the consumer to pay their employees on top of paying for the product or service. Waiters get paid a living wage.

Yea I thought it was insulting to leave a tip in Europe?

It’s not and it is a myth that you should not tip. I generally tip 5% in the EU. And I generally get wonderful service. Wait staff do not constantly check on you. You can always spot dumb fuck Americans getting worked up bc the staff isn’t checking in every five minutes. I personally enjoy drinking wine staring at 300 year old buildings for 20 minutes while waiting for the bill.

Thanks for the...uh...tip

[steelheadtrout]

Stinger8: I had the best vacation in my life visiting Catania. We had a guided tour of Etna (it was snowy as f.ck). Uses airbnb and vrbo to get great places. Archeological museum in Siracusa is fantastic. Had a great spread at a winery (damn if I can remember which one). Oh, and took a boat tour to Volcano. Palermo is an absolutely fascinating city.

No stillers content.

I will say this about tipping in France: just remember to "leave the bronze" when departing your neighborhood cafe.

[Tundralag]

It’s not and it is a myth that you should not tip. I generally tip 5% in the EU. And I generally get wonderful service. Wait staff do not constantly check on you. You can always spot dumb fuck Americans getting worked up bc the staff isn’t checking in every five minutes. I personally enjoy drinking wine staring at 300 year old buildings for 20 minutes while waiting for the bill.[/quote]

It is nice not having a waitress asking if everything is ok before i take a bit and checking in every 3 minutes. Yes, you have to flag down a waiter more often in Europe for your check etc. I prefer the european restautant experience.[/quote]

For sure... I haven't spent as much time in Europe as some.. I was in Germany for 14 years and Italy for 6 years.. I love the way they do business... When me and the wife flew from Italy to Alaska to see our sons who were stationed in Anchorage. The first thing we did once we got off the plane was head to the local seafood restaurant to get Halibut and fries.. Damn waiter was lurking 5 feet from us and was so fucking annoying.. she even tried to get into our conversation.. I finally had enough and told her, Hey if want a tip leave us alone.. If I need anything I will let you know...

I miss Europe but only for the food and drink..after 20 years we have seen everything we needed to see.

[Pabst]

My general experience with tipping in Europe is more tips = exceptional service.

I was in Malta recently (absolutely beautiful country, btw) and tipped our cab driver 20%. I left him my name and departure date/time (5 days later) and the dude was there at our hotel at 4 AM, with breakfast, ready to take us back to the airport.

As a sidenote, if you want to go to a really cool city that's off the beaten path: Tallinn, Estonia.

[stinger8]

Stinger8: I had the best vacation in my life visiting Catania. We had a guided tour of Etna (it was snowy as f.ck). Uses airbnb and vrbo to get great places. Archeological museum in Siracusa is fantastic. Had a great spread at a winery (damn if I can remember which one). Oh, and took a boat tour to Volcano. Palermo is an absolutely fascinating city.

No stillers content.

I will say this about tipping in France: just remember to "leave the bronze" when departing your neighborhood cafe.

Thanks SHT you got my excitement level up significantly. Appreciate your tips/comments. Using VRBO/AirBnB etc for all stays. We have an incredible apartment essentially in the old town in Catania, very reasonable. I am of Italian extraction so my favourite place BY FAR is Italy. So diverse north to south, such incredible history, scenery, beaches (Amalfi and cinque terre last year were mind blowing) and the food and wine MAMA MIA Not sure we are going to get to Palermo (I have been once before).

Cheers

[R_S]

My general experience with tipping in Europe is more tips = exceptional service.

I was in Malta recently (absolutely beautiful country, btw) and tipped our cab driver 20%. I left him my name and departure date/time (5 days later) and the dude was there at our hotel at 4 AM, with breakfast, ready to take us back to the airport.

As a sidenote, if you want to go to a really cool city that's off the beaten path: Tallinn, Estonia.

I was in Tallinn about 4 years ago. Cool place. Try the pig tongue app or the pork knuckle.

[Quixotic]

Wife and I had dinner at a restaurant in San Francisco that proudly stated on the top of the menu they were a no tip restaurant. The price of the meal included a living wage for their employees to include healthcare & paid time off.

I thought oh that’s nice.

Until it became apparent the service was among the worst we had ever had given what you’d typically expect from a place of that caliber.

Example: what would you like to drink? We will have a couple glass of Cabernet. He proceeds to bring only one and is gone so quick doesn’t even notice we are holding our hand up trying to get his attention for the second glass.

It finally came with the meal.

Example two. We would like to get our desert to go and will be walking back to our hotel down the street. Will it melt before we get there?

Oh no he says. You’ll be fine. It’s right down the street.

Cool we will take two to go.

Waiter proceeds to bring desert but fails to bring back my AMEX card. We sit there for an additional 10 minutes watching him joking around with another server in the back while our desert melts.

There was more. I’d much prefer to tip.

I worked as a waiter when I was in grad school. Pretty much paid my way. I made good money (easily a living wage). And I learned to be good at the finer points of both serving and selling—skills I have used in my career for close to forty years. I believe in tipping. I believe in servers being paid decently for decent service…well for good service…and outrageously well for incredible services. This puts the level of service into the hands of the server and the customer. The no-tip trend is an insult to good servers. It treats them as unskilled labor. I promise you, the idea of no-tip restaurants was not created by seasoned servers.

In fact, the reason you got bad service at a no-tip restaurant was likely that all the REAL servers were working elsewhere. And what you got was “unskilled labor.”

[955876]

I agree Q. In this instance though I think it was more his lack of concern than his lack of skill. Guy was in his mid-30s. So far from someone learning the ropes type of thing.

I also left part of the story out. When I said he was off joking around with another waiter while I was waiting for my card so I could sign & leave he was actually over in the back massaging the shoulders of another waiter. Could not even get his attention by waving hand in air repeatedly to get him to notice. Staff there in general were more about their own thing than the customer.

Just poor service all the way around.

Too bad too because I had a grilled pork chop that was outstanding. I wouldn’t mind having it again but my wife didn’t enjoy her meal much and paired with the garbage service it’s a place that has been crossed off the list.

In comparison, there is a sushi place nearby there that has off the charts service. Super efficient staff.

They kind of work around you without bothering or interacting with you. Always leave a nice tip for the girls working there.

Will be in the same part of SF tomorrow. Not sure at this point where we will grab dinner but I know one place it won’t be.

[COR-TEN]

So 5% is a pretty standard tip in the EU? Asking because I’m traveling thru Germany and Austria in early September. I’ll be cycling the Danube bike path from Regensburg to Vienna.

Honestly, many Europeans don't bother to tip at all. All I was saying is that it is myth that no one tips. It sure as shit is not 15 or 20%. 5% is my personal choice. Staff are always appreciative.

Also: man am I jealous. Sounds like you're going to have an amazing time.

I fucking love me some Deutschland! Sehr schön!

Yeah, I’m counting down the days like a kid at christmas. Been planning this adventure for a couple of years. I’ll be biking about 70km a day and staying in Pensions or AirBnBs along the way. Especially looking forward to the final few days in Vienna.

Ahhhh yes. Hapsburgland. Like disney land, but different. Not sure how you are about culture, etc, but if you're in Vienna, a must see is the Austrian National Library, State hall.

https://www.wien.info/en/sightseeing/si ... al-library

It will blow your socks off.

[COR-TEN]

That’s part of the goal Kodiak. Universal income that is.

Paid to do nothing.

Well, nothing except become dependent.

You'd think that no one ever read Harrison Bergeron growing up to realize how ridiculous a notion these things are

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101 ... n-bergeron

So that means you don't condone egalitarianism? Because based on current conservative political theory, artificial social darwinism is perfectly acceptable.

Of course, when you take things to their extreme, they become untenable. I guess it's like liberals that like to point to somalia if you want ultimate freedom in a libertarian utopia. Because going to the other extreme is just as bad, if not worse. And Vonnegut's novel is fiction, right? Fiction that fits the narrative.

[Pabst]

My general experience with tipping in Europe is more tips = exceptional service.

I was in Malta recently (absolutely beautiful country, btw) and tipped our cab driver 20%. I left him my name and departure date/time (5 days later) and the dude was there at our hotel at 4 AM, with breakfast, ready to take us back to the airport.

As a sidenote, if you want to go to a really cool city that's off the beaten path: Tallinn, Estonia.

I was in Tallinn about 4 years ago. Cool place. Try the pig tongue app or the pork knuckle.

F that

We actually found a restaurant just outside of town that let you catch your own trout and they filleted/cooked it on the spot for you. Between that, side dishes, and a few beers, total bill was about 40 euro with plenty of food left over.

[955876]

That sounds like a cool place Pabst.

I’m back in SF today. Time will tell whether or not the dinner spot tonight is a tip or no tip place.

It’ll be someplace we’ve never been so will see...

[stinger8]

That sounds like a cool place Pabst.

I’m back in SF today. Time will tell whether or not the dinner spot tonight is a tip or no tip place.

It’ll be someplace we’ve never been so will see...

Here is a suggestion EINSTEIN. When you walk in the door ask is this an AMERIKAN place where the wait staff has to earn our largess due to their divine servitude to our requirements serving us our incredibly caloric meal or are they already paid because.......... SOCIALISM????

Another suggestion dont go to Frisco you are not welcome there Bubba.

[955876]

It’s quite strange the amount of anger a simple post about the poor service in a no-tip restaurant elicited out of you.

What isn’t strange is you fitting the stereotype of how all too often those who align with the so-called party of acceptance, tolerance, inclusiveness etc etc is so quick to shout somebody down.

Your rage is at a level it almost seems fake.

Tell me though, how does a Canadian come to the conclusion they speak for the entire city of San Francisco?

And I frequent this city quite a bit. Sorry if that invades your safe space. I come for business, pleasure, and today just happened to be medical.

You see, the wife gets treated at the brain tumor center at UCSF. Maybe I should go elsewhere since some dipshit has determined a stranger who got poor service and mentioned it here isn’t welcome in an entire city.

I did read an interesting article by chance the other day. Said more men in Canada have herpes than watch the CFL.

I have no doubt where you land with that.

I’m going to enjoy my evening as the appointment went great...

[R_S]

My general experience with tipping in Europe is more tips = exceptional service.

I was in Malta recently (absolutely beautiful country, btw) and tipped our cab driver 20%. I left him my name and departure date/time (5 days later) and the dude was there at our hotel at 4 AM, with breakfast, ready to take us back to the airport.

As a sidenote, if you want to go to a really cool city that's off the beaten path: Tallinn, Estonia.

I was in Tallinn about 4 years ago. Cool place. Try the pig tongue app or the pork knuckle.

F that

We actually found a restaurant just outside of town that let you catch your own trout and they filleted/cooked it on the spot for you. Between that, side dishes, and a few beers, total bill was about 40 euro with plenty of food left over.

we stayed in an Airbnb smack dab in the middle of old town. I won't go into detail of my rendezvous with a large chested local in our apartment sauna... Didn't to the outskirts, probably should have. I had the pig tongue at a cool place called Hell Hunt Pub. It actually tasted just like ham. served with a horseradish dipping sauce of some sort. No big deal.

[R_S]

That sounds like a cool place Pabst.

I’m back in SF today. Time will tell whether or not the dinner spot tonight is a tip or no tip place.

It’ll be someplace we’ve never been so will see...

Here is a suggestion EINSTEIN. When you walk in the door ask is this an AMERIKAN place where the wait staff has to earn our largess due to their divine servitude to our requirements serving us our incredibly caloric meal or are they already paid because.......... SOCIALISM????

Another suggestion dont go to Frisco you are not welcome there Bubba.

relax bruh. You need to get one of those COEXIST bumper stickers.

[Pabst]

we stayed in an Airbnb smack dab in the middle of old town. I won't go into detail of my rendezvous with a large chested local in our apartment sauna... Didn't to the outskirts, probably should have. I had the pig tongue at a cool place called Hell Hunt Pub. It actually tasted just like ham. served with a horseradish dipping sauce of some sort. No big deal.

No kidding? We stayed about a block away from Hell Hunt and had dinner there our first night.
Finding out "Hell Hunt" meant "Gentle Wolf" in Estonian was kinda disappointing.

[Donnie Brasco]

That sounds like a cool place Pabst.

I’m back in SF today. Time will tell whether or not the dinner spot tonight is a tip or no tip place.

It’ll be someplace we’ve never been so will see...

Here is a suggestion EINSTEIN. When you walk in the door ask is this an AMERIKAN place where the wait staff has to earn our largess due to their divine servitude to our requirements serving us our incredibly caloric meal or are they already paid because.......... SOCIALISM????

Another suggestion dont go to Frisco you are not welcome there Bubba.

Yea I'm sure that'll make someone alter their plans: a random dude on a message board

[955876]

He’s a pretty weird dude Brasco. So I guess I’d just say...

Fuggetaboutit.

Did have a great dining experience last night. Wasn’t sure when we’d be done with what we needed to do so had no reservations anywhere. Tried to grab a bite at Steph Curry’s wife’s place which is supposed to have awesome BBQ. No luck as it was an hour wait without reservations. As was most places we tried.

Came across this place below which was also packed but the hostess was particularly pleasant and squeezed us in. Especially appreciated given we were both dressed very casually which wasn’t consistent at all with the dining crowd there.

And most certainly a tip place. I left 30%.

Some dude who wasn’t our server actually swooped by our table and refolded my napkin while I was using the restroom. Not something I need but found it a nice touch nonetheless. Class place. And great food.

https://www.boulevardrestaurant.com/

[Quixotic]

That sounds like a cool place Pabst.

I’m back in SF today. Time will tell whether or not the dinner spot tonight is a tip or no tip place.

It’ll be someplace we’ve never been so will see...

Here is a suggestion EINSTEIN. When you walk in the door ask is this an AMERIKAN place where the wait staff has to earn our largess due to their divine servitude to our requirements serving us our incredibly caloric meal or are they already paid because.......... SOCIALISM????

Another suggestion dont go to Frisco you are not welcome there Bubba.

On this topic, Stinger, you are ill-informed and just plain wrong. (What does one call someone who mouths off about something he knows nothing about? Just a rhetorical question; no answer required.)

On another note, are you aware that people from SAN FRANCISCO call it SAN FRANCISCO and sometimes puke spontaneously at the sound of the word “FRISCO?” I guess not.

955876, sorry to hear about your wife. I’ll pray she does better.

[955876]

Thanks Quixotic.

She’s actually doing fabulous. Was basically given 2 years to live 4 years ago.

I don’t like to say she’s out of the woods because the textbook says her type of tumor has a fairly high probability of recurrence. It’s not there now however and her MRI results were outstanding yesterday.

It’s no longer something that dominates our life. Just live normally in between MRI appointments. She’s far enough along those are getting spaced out in frequency now. Have been doing one every 60 days with some done at a 30 day interval for past 4 years.

She had a major and very risky surgery done at UCSF in June of 2016 to remove the tumor. Original neurosurgeon along with the second opinion we got at Stanford deemed it too sensitive a location and thus, inoperable.

Chief neurosurgeon at UCSF felt otherwise and went in and got it. She fumbles words at times and struggles to read out loud but those are minuscule issues.

Needless to say we’ve tried lots of restaurants in the city. So if you ever need a place....

[Quixotic]

Thanks Quixotic.

She’s actually doing fabulous. Was basically given 2 years to live 4 years ago.

I don’t like to say she’s out of the woods because the textbook says her type of tumor has a fairly high probability of recurrence. It’s not there now however and her MRI results were outstanding yesterday.

It’s no longer something that dominates our life. Just live normally in between MRI appointments. She’s far enough along those are getting spaced out in frequency now. Have been doing one every 60 days with some done at a 30 day interval for past 4 years.

She had a major and very risky surgery done at UCSF in June of 2016 to remove the tumor. Original neurosurgeon along with the second opinion we got at Stanford deemed it too sensitive a location and thus, inoperable.

Chief neurosurgeon at UCSF felt otherwise and went in and got it. She fumbles words at times and struggles to read out loud but those are minuscule issues.

Needless to say we’ve tried lots of restaurants in the city. So if you ever need a place....

Good news all around. I fumble some words myself.

If I make back to the Bay Area, I’ll get reccos from you for restaurants.