Brown to be primary punt returner

[FC]

I would be shocked if Dri Archer is inactive for any games this season unless it's due to injury.

He's by no means a finished product, but he offers position flexibility which allows for some creativity in terms of schematics, obviously. If the Steelers can find a way to play to his strengths while he continues growing organically in the portion of the game played above the neck, it's black and white that he'll be a player on the rise, if you will.

Injuries is the reason I expect Archer is deactivated on some game days...Hopefully we don't find out.

Archer is a gimmick package player on offense
Archer is a kick returner.

He doesn't cover kicks...He is not a core special teams player
He doesn't play in base offensive packages

Archer at this point is a luxury player...Only 46 hats on game days.

[Legacy User]

I would be shocked if Dri Archer is inactive for any games this season unless it's due to injury.

He's by no means a finished product, but he offers position flexibility which allows for some creativity in terms of schematics, obviously. If the Steelers can find a way to play to his strengths while he continues growing organically in the portion of the game played above the neck, it's black and white that he'll be a player on the rise, if you will.

Injuries is the reason I expect Archer is deactivated on some game days...Hopefully we don't find out.

Archer is a gimmick package player on offense
Archer is a kick returner.

He doesn't cover kicks...He is not a core special teams player
He doesn't play in base offensive packages

Archer at this point is a luxury player...Only 46 hats on game days.

Archer also breaks off 45+ yard catch and runs. Nice to have those guys around too.

[Orangesteel]

Right, and a lot of us were scratching our heads on draft day, not because of why he was picked, but where he was picked.

He doesn't have to be the second coming of Marcus Allen, but on a team that is strapped thin at numerous positions, a 3rd round draft pick needs to perform and contribute to winning games, plain and simple. A team trying to get back to Super Bowl contention needs to hit on draft picks, plain and simple.

Archer not unequivocally being our kick returner 4 days before our first game is troubling, and it brings back the doubters of taking him in the 3rd, like me.

[Legacy User]

I would be shocked if Dri Archer is inactive for any games this season unless it's due to injury.

He's by no means a finished product, but he offers position flexibility which allows for some creativity in terms of schematics, obviously. If the Steelers can find a way to play to his strengths while he continues growing organically in the portion of the game played above the neck, it's black and white that he'll be a player on the rise, if you will.

Injuries is the reason I expect Archer is deactivated on some game days...Hopefully we don't find out.

Archer is a gimmick package player on offense
Archer is a kick returner.

He doesn't cover kicks...He is not a core special teams player
He doesn't play in base offensive packages

Archer at this point is a luxury player...Only 46 hats on game days.

I'm more optimistic regarding Archer's role in the offense, but I think I'm just generally more optimistic. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I think Archer gets a handful of plays per game early on, with the goal being to get him the ball on at least one or two of those plays. I think if the need would arise, Archer could be used as a RB in the base offense short-term (i.e. if Bell and Blount are both injured in the course of a game, Archer could play RB the rest of the game, although the offensive playcalling would almost certainly change under those circumstances regardless of who the 3rd RB was).
I could see the punt return platoon playing out similarly to the way many teams do things: Send Brown out there for punts that are likely to come down in judgement-call territory inside the 15 and let Archer get his feet wet when the opponent's punting from closer to their own goalline so he's more likely to have a little more room to work with.

[Legacy User]

Are we really going to stretch this to the ridiculous assumption that returning punts is some sort of mythical skill only a few are capable?

We know he can run.

He's shown he has the hands to catch.

All that is left is the ability to field the punt.

And if he's incapable of doing that then why burn a 3rd on a guy who isn't starter material at either RB or WR?

I can accept the 3rd if he's a situational guy on offense if he's also the primary punt/kick return man.

If he isn't, he wasn't worth the third unless he REALLY kicks ass situationally.

I guess we will see.

Actually, you're 100% wrong. Returning punts/kicks IS a skill that few possess. Tell me why Mike Wallace isn't used to return punts despite being one of the fastest guys in the league and having decent hands?

The key to being a good returner is not top end speed or hands. The key is wiggle and vision. AB ran a 4.5 40 but he has elite agility/lateral agility/wiggle. He also has elite vision to see the holes, and to use his blocking properly. Archer is MUCH faster than AB in a straight line but doesn't have much wiggle...his vision isn't as good either. Returning punts is all about making the first tackler miss - you do this not by running forward as fast as you can but by making a small quick juke.

Archer didn't return punts in college because he's not good at it. He's not good at it because he's a straightline speed guy...he doesn't have the wiggle of AB or a RB like McCoy.

That said, if Archer is only our 'gadget play' RB he will be way overdrafted as a 3rd round pick.

[955876]

Are we really going to stretch this to the ridiculous assumption that returning punts is some sort of mythical skill only a few are capable?

We know he can run.

He's shown he has the hands to catch.

All that is left is the ability to field the punt.

And if he's incapable of doing that then why burn a 3rd on a guy who isn't starter material at either RB or WR?

I can accept the 3rd if he's a situational guy on offense if he's also the primary punt/kick return man.

If he isn't, he wasn't worth the third unless he REALLY kicks ass situationally.

I guess we will see.

Actually, you're 100% wrong. Returning punts/kicks IS a skill that few possess. Tell me why Mike Wallace isn't used to return punts despite being one of the fastest guys in the league and having decent hands?

The key to being a good returner is not top end speed or hands. The key is wiggle and vision. AB ran a 4.5 40 but he has elite agility/lateral agility/wiggle. He also has elite vision to see the holes, and to use his blocking properly. Archer is MUCH faster than AB in a straight line but doesn't have much wiggle...his vision isn't as good either. Returning punts is all about making the first tackler miss - you do this not by running forward as fast as you can but by making a small quick juke.

Archer didn't return punts in college because he's not good at it. He's not good at it because he's a straightline speed guy...he doesn't have the wiggle of AB or a RB like McCoy.

That said, if Archer is only our 'gadget play' RB he will be way overdrafted as a 3rd round pick.

We are arguing slightly different points. I get the wiggle & vision part about being a dynamic return man.

I'm talking bout fielding the actual punt. Something Tomlin has shied away from guys because he doesn't trust them to field the punt.

And if he doesn't trust him it leads us back to why?

Further, dont gadget type of guys like Archer need wiggle & vision to be successful in those roles?

Straight line speed doesn't do you much good if you can't get started.

So back to my point, which I wasn't wrong about at all, that being if you take a guy in the third who at best is a situational part-time offensive player then he better be able to contribute as a return man. And if he can't, why waste a third on him?

Also, if his vision & wiggle is as bad as you say why even draft the guy?

And Wallace sucked as a return guy because he was a lanky, clumsy fuck.

Real fast in a straight line. Not much of a runner in terms of wiggle.

From the (very) little I've seen of Archer he didn't appear to be Wallace bad in that regard.

Again, time will tell.

[955876]

And let's not forget some of the very slow and no wiggle guys Tomlin has had returning punts & kicks over the years.

Didn't he have Crappy Davis on a few kick offs?

[Legacy User]

And let's not forget some of the very slow and no wiggle guys Tomlin has had returning punts & kicks over the years.

Didn't he have Crappy Davis on a few kick offs?

Punts and kickoffs are two totally different animals, but yes, Tomlin has had explosive physical specimens like Carey Davis, Najeh Davenport, Mewelde Moore and Gary Russell return kickoffs.

As for punts, Mewelde Moore is the only real very slow, no wiggle guy I can recall being used, and he was just back there to fair catch everything to my recollection.

[Mick]

Archer wouldn't be 2nd on the depth chart if he couldn't do it.

But if you are just putting someone back there to fair catch/let it bounce in the end zone, why wouldn't we let brown do it if he's the guy we trust the most? I'd also want brown back in key game situations; he is one of the best return men in the league.

Devin hester did nothing but return footballs as a rookie. He was a 2nd rounder, and I don't think I've ever heard him considered overdrafted. Archer will return all our kicks, some of our punts, and play hundreds of snaps on offense. If he was overdrafted, it will be because he doesn't show enough over the many plays he's involved in, not because he's only the second best player on our team at pretending to fair catch punts that bounce into the end zone.

[Legacy User]

Archer wouldn't be 2nd on the depth chart if he couldn't do it.

But if you are just putting someone back there to fair catch/let it bounce in the end zone, why wouldn't we let brown do it if he's the guy we trust the most? I'd also want brown back in key game situations; he is one of the best return men in the league.

Devin hester did nothing but return footballs as a rookie. He was a 2nd rounder, and I don't think I've ever heard him considered overdrafted. Archer will return all our kicks, some of our punts, and play hundreds of snaps on offense. If he was overdrafted, it will be because he doesn't show enough over the many plays he's involved in, not because he's only the second best player on our team at pretending to fair catch punts that bounce into the end zone.

Kickoff returns are increasingly irrelevant. It seems every team (except for us of course) has a kicker capable of pounding da rawk through the back of the endzone. Maybe this changes once the weather gets colder, but how many KRs do we get per game now? Maybe 3 or 4 between the 2 teams?

[Mick]

Archer wouldn't be 2nd on the depth chart if he couldn't do it.

But if you are just putting someone back there to fair catch/let it bounce in the end zone, why wouldn't we let brown do it if he's the guy we trust the most? I'd also want brown back in key game situations; he is one of the best return men in the league.

Devin hester did nothing but return footballs as a rookie. He was a 2nd rounder, and I don't think I've ever heard him considered overdrafted. Archer will return all our kicks, some of our punts, and play hundreds of snaps on offense. If he was overdrafted, it will be because he doesn't show enough over the many plays he's involved in, not because he's only the second best player on our team at pretending to fair catch punts that bounce into the end zone.

Kickoff returns are increasingly irrelevant. It seems every team (except for us of course) has a kicker capable of pounding da rawk through the back of the endzone. Maybe this changes once the weather gets colder, but how many KRs do we get per game now? Maybe 3 or 4 between the 2 teams?

last season we returned 43 kicks and 32 punts.

[Kodiak]

last season we returned 43 kicks and 32 punts.

I figure all else equal Archer will get 4-5 more yards than the slow, plodding has-beens and never-weres returning kicks for us last year. Why Tomlin waited until the final 1/3 of the season to use Sanders sparingly on kick returns is another one of his inexplicably dim-witted decisions.

[Mick]

last season we returned 43 kicks and 32 punts.

I figure all else equal Archer will get 4-5 more yards than the slow, plodding has-beens and never-weres returning kicks for us last year. Why Tomlin waited until the final 1/3 of the season to use Sanders sparingly on kick returns is another one of his inexplicably dim-witted decisions.

4-5 yards over 43 kicks ends up being aroundd 200 yards, basically the difference between your rb getting 4.5 ypc instead of 3.5 over 200 carries. I think him being worth the pick is more a question of him not fumbling than our apparent usage plans, but obviously there's a big 'he's still got to go out there and do it' factor when we our running calculations with an assume 5 ypr over replacement assumption.

[Legacy User]

the bottom line is this......archer was a horrible pick in the 3rd......if you really wanna know why this team is becoming a bottom feeder look at the last 5 or so drafts 3rd and 4th rders......thats where teams get built to win.....our picks have mind bogglingly horrible in that area

I do not like Archer in the 3rd. I don't think he'll have an impact this season. But a horrible pick is Laundry in the 4th. Archer is an overreach by 2 or 3 rounds. Laundry should have never been drafted.

[Orangesteel]

Passing judgment on Archer right now is a tad but premature, though everything about him screams gimmick or "luxury" player as FC put it. Lets wait three or four games in before we start putting him in the same worthless eschelon as Landry Jones.

That said, while plenty of other teams have drafted absolute gems in the middle rounds of the draft, we have been epically awful as of late. Save for Brown, there really isn't anyone on our roster that has panned our between the 3rd and 6th rounds. Archer is under the microscope big time. Believe me, the last thing I wanna say 4 weeks from now is "what the fuck was Colbert thinking" in regards to Archer, but I took comfort that he was a lock as a kick returner, and the current depth chart indicates MT is not completely comfortable with him taking the responsibilities himself, which is troubling.

[Mick]

Passing judgment on Archer right now is a tad but premature, though everything about him screams gimmick or "luxury" player as FC put it. Lets wait three or four games in before we start putting him in the same worthless eschelon as Landry Jones.

That said, while plenty of other teams have drafted absolute gems in the middle rounds of the draft, we have been epically awful as of late. Save for Brown, there really isn't anyone on our roster that has panned our between the 3rd and 6th rounds. Archer is under the microscope big time. Believe me, the last thing I wanna say 4 weeks from now is "what the fuck was Colbert thinking" in regards to Archer, but I took comfort that he was a lock as a kick returner, and the current depth chart indicates MT is not completely comfortable with him taking the responsibilities himself, which is troubling.

we drafted mike wallace, keenan lewis, sanders, antonio brown, and cortez allen in those rounds from 2009 to 2011. We had an awful looking middle round class in 2012. And 2013 and 2014 haven't really had much of a chance to get on the fiel yet, but early returns on wheaton, shark, vince williams, mccullers, bryant, and yes, archer, have been promising. So I'm not really seeing the trend you suggest other than a terrible 2012 draft.

[Legacy User]

the bottom line is this......archer was a horrible pick in the 3rd......if you really wanna know why this team is becoming a bottom feeder look at the last 5 or so drafts 3rd and 4th rders......thats where teams get built to win.....our picks have mind bogglingly horrible in that area

You mean Colbert/Tomlin's picks and not Rooney's picks, right?

[Steelafan77]

Color me concerned with Archer returning punts. I don't believe he has the ability. Or doesn't want the responsibility. Something ain't right when Archer's back there. I would be trying Wheaton. But I digress. If they haven't tried Wheaton by now they aren't going to.

I think Brown does it cause he's asked to do it. Not because he necessarily wants to. Hence all the fair catches he calls for. Why potentially be trucked and then lose your ability to perform at your position of choice? When I saw them try Bryant at PR I knew Brown was not eager to be back there and Archer isn't going to be the answer. Conundrum.

[bradshaw2ben]

Passing judgment on Archer right now is a tad but premature, though everything about him screams gimmick or "luxury" player as FC put it. Lets wait three or four games in before we start putting him in the same worthless eschelon as Landry Jones.

That said, while plenty of other teams have drafted absolute gems in the middle rounds of the draft, we have been epically awful as of late. Save for Brown, there really isn't anyone on our roster that has panned our between the 3rd and 6th rounds. Archer is under the microscope big time. Believe me, the last thing I wanna say 4 weeks from now is "what the fuck was Colbert thinking" in regards to Archer, but I took comfort that he was a lock as a kick returner, and the current depth chart indicates MT is not completely comfortable with him taking the responsibilities himself, which is troubling.

we drafted mike wallace, keenan lewis, sanders, antonio brown, and cortez allen in those rounds from 2009 to 2011. We had an awful looking middle round class in 2012. And 2013 and 2014 haven't really had much of a chance to get on the fiel yet, but early returns on wheaton, shark, vince williams, mccullers, bryant, and yes, archer, have been promising. So I'm not really seeing the trend you suggest other than a terrible 2012 draft.

Early returns on Wheaton have been promising? Otherwise I agree that there is relative value there.

[V DUB]

Passing judgment on Archer right now is a tad but premature, though everything about him screams gimmick or "luxury" player as FC put it. Lets wait three or four games in before we start putting him in the same worthless eschelon as Landry Jones.

That said, while plenty of other teams have drafted absolute gems in the middle rounds of the draft, we have been epically awful as of late. Save for Brown, there really isn't anyone on our roster that has panned our between the 3rd and 6th rounds. Archer is under the microscope big time. Believe me, the last thing I wanna say 4 weeks from now is "what the fuck was Colbert thinking" in regards to Archer, but I took comfort that he was a lock as a kick returner, and the current depth chart indicates MT is not completely comfortable with him taking the responsibilities himself, which is troubling.

Since they've been trying to get the same size speed guy since, I keep wondering why they let Stephan Logan go? They've used semi-premium draft picks trying to fill the role, when they signed Logan as a street FA.

I realize he was here under Arians...my point is those guys can be had without using a high rounder. You've got to scheme them open anyway, pick up an ultra fast, shifty smurf with suspect hands, that won't win matchups some other way.

This coming from a guy who doesn't hate the pick.

[Orangesteel]

Passing judgment on Archer right now is a tad but premature, though everything about him screams gimmick or "luxury" player as FC put it. Lets wait three or four games in before we start putting him in the same worthless eschelon as Landry Jones.

That said, while plenty of other teams have drafted absolute gems in the middle rounds of the draft, we have been epically awful as of late. Save for Brown, there really isn't anyone on our roster that has panned our between the 3rd and 6th rounds. Archer is under the microscope big time. Believe me, the last thing I wanna say 4 weeks from now is "what the fuck was Colbert thinking" in regards to Archer, but I took comfort that he was a lock as a kick returner, and the current depth chart indicates MT is not completely comfortable with him taking the responsibilities himself, which is troubling.

we drafted mike wallace, keenan lewis, sanders, antonio brown, and cortez allen in those rounds from 2009 to 2011. We had an awful looking middle round class in 2012. And 2013 and 2014 haven't really had much of a chance to get on the fiel yet, but early returns on wheaton, shark, vince williams, mccullers, bryant, and yes, archer, have been promising. So I'm not really seeing the trend you suggest other than a terrible 2012 draft.

Early returns on Wheaton have been promising? Otherwise I agree that there is relative value there.

Wallace was a good pick but maybe he isn't as good as initially thought. Lewis is very good. I mentioned Brown. Sanders? I've said before and I will always say he's JAG. Even if he scores 12 touchdowns this year, that is 95% manning and scheme and 5% him.

I don't have all day to list the whiffs over the last 6 years between the 3-6 rounds, but believe me, it is abundant. I'll go with Wallace, Brown and Lewis being quite good and a draft "hit". Sanders can suck my balls. You wanna list our misses in that same time frame? For every AB there are 5 Mike Humpal's and Bruce Davis'.

[Orangesteel]

I just looked up Bruce Davis and he is currently playing in the Gridiron Football League.

I guess not a total "miss".

[Kodiak]

4-5 yards over 43 kicks ends up being aroundd 200 yards

True, however that has more to do with Moore/Felix Jones/Dwyer being exceptionally slow than Archer being exceptionally fast. They didn't need to draft Archer in R3 to pick-up those 4-5 yards on returns.

I think they drafted Archer for potential on punt/kick returns with the added bonus of gimmick/package guy. It's really not a bad move, especially when you consider he was an R3 comp and not the mid-round R3 (if that really makes much of a difference). Besides, their track record on R3 picks is pretty spotty.

[Orangesteel]

Passing judgment on Archer right now is a tad but premature, though everything about him screams gimmick or "luxury" player as FC put it. Lets wait three or four games in before we start putting him in the same worthless eschelon as Landry Jones.

That said, while plenty of other teams have drafted absolute gems in the middle rounds of the draft, we have been epically awful as of late. Save for Brown, there really isn't anyone on our roster that has panned our between the 3rd and 6th rounds. Archer is under the microscope big time. Believe me, the last thing I wanna say 4 weeks from now is "what the fuck was Colbert thinking" in regards to Archer, but I took comfort that he was a lock as a kick returner, and the current depth chart indicates MT is not completely comfortable with him taking the responsibilities himself, which is troubling.

Since they've been trying to get the same size speed guy since, I keep wondering why they let Stephan Logan go? They've used semi-premium draft picks trying to fill the role, when they signed Logan as a street FA.

I realize he was here under Arians...my point is those guys can be had without using a high rounder. You've got to scheme them open anyway, pick up an ultra fast, shifty smurf with suspect hands, that won't win matchups some other way.

This coming from a guy who doesn't hate the pick.

Great post, Van.

[Legacy User]

i'll be clear with you since you arent the non stop ball washing simpleton many are.....

Hold your praise.

On the one hand I have a hard time believing Rooney wasn't influencing the Arians refirement.

On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that Tomlin doesn't sign off on the offense and that Tomlin and Colbert aren't the last word in drafting.

So I think the truth is somewhere in between the ballwashing and your position, both of which strike me as extreme. In the end, hard to know what goes on behind the closed doors.

[Mick]

4-5 yards over 43 kicks ends up being aroundd 200 yards

True, however that has more to do with Moore/Felix Jones/Dwyer being exceptionally slow than Archer being exceptionally fast. They didn't need to draft Archer in R3 to pick-up those 4-5 yards on returns.

I think they drafted Archer for potential on punt/kick returns with the added bonus of gimmick/package guy. It's really not a bad move, especially when you consider he was an R3 comp and not the mid-round R3 (if that really makes much of a difference). Besides, their track record on R3 picks is pretty spotty.

you never draft anyone with the hope that they'll turn out to be worth pick (okay, maybe you do drafting first overall), you always draft hoping he'll be worth a lot more than the pick. Most players fall short of their upside.

The hope for archer is tavon austin with better kick returning and worse punt returning. If he hits that, he's crazy value near pick 100. But if he gives us an extra couple hundred extra yards of field position each year, he'll be disappointingly worth the pick and not much more, a la emmanuel sanders.

[R_S]

Herm Tomlin is a warrior of the highest level. he's like a black fucking Conan!

[Legacy User]

Herm Tomlin is a warrior of the highest level. he's like a black fucking Conan!

Slave-warrior owner: "TOMLIN! What is best in life?!"
Tomlin: "To ease into games. To wear down the opponent through attrition. And to hear the lamentation of the fans."

[Orangesteel]

Found this gem on Mike Humpal;

He played college football at Iowa. Nicknamed 'Turd Furgeson' by his teammates. The origin of the nickname remains unknown.

[V DUB]

Hahahaha!