Hall of Famer Mike Tomlin

[bradshaw2ben]

Harbaugh inherited Billick's players-- 3 HOFers + Ngata on D. WTF has he done with them? 1 SB Championship and only 2 years with more than 1 playoff win in his whole career. Tomlin has 3 in the same lenght of time, and a whole lot more injury problems with his stars than Harbaugh.

And what has Pete Carroll done? He only has 2 seasons with more than 1 playoff win in that period, most of which with arguably a better QB than Ben. 1 SB win, 1 NFCChampionship... same as Tomlin. Andy Reid (this year's Doug Peterson flavor of the month) has 2 of those multi win postseasons in the same period of time. Payton has 1 (!) and he's had a HOF QB his whole career, same number of career years as Tomlin, with a worse record in every respect. But he's a genius!

Of NFL Coaches with 100 wins, Tomlin has the 8th best win pct. Since the NFL Merger, he's 3rd. If he lands another good QB and stays in the game until he's 60, he'll be top 5 in wins all-time and 2nd only to Belichick since the merger.

[bradshaw2ben]

If I might summarize the argument: IF you have Ben Roethlisberger at QB, you should win the Super Bowl 1/3 years and should always be at least a playoff team and probably a multi-win playoff team 2/3 playoff years. It doesn't matter who else you have or what kind of D or OL or skill players or the salary cap or injuries or whathaveyou. Or the coach is holding you back That is the argument in a nutshell.

We've got a HOF coach and a HOF QB holding us back. No wonder we're 8-0!

[Drummer Boy]

Harbaugh inherited Billick's players-- 3 HOFers + Ngata on D. WTF has he done with them? 1 SB Championship and only 2 years with more than 1 playoff win in his whole career. Tomlin has 3 in the same lenght of time, and a whole lot more injury problems with his stars than Harbaugh.

And what has Pete Carroll done? He only has 2 seasons with more than 1 playoff win in that period, most of which with arguably a better QB than Ben. 1 SB win, 1 NFCChampionship... same as Tomlin. Andy Reid (this year's Doug Peterson flavor of the month) has 2 of those multi win postseasons in the same period of time. Payton has 1 (!) and he's had a HOF QB his whole career, same number of career years as Tomlin, with a worse record in every respect. But he's a genius!

Of NFL Coaches with 100 wins, Tomlin has the 8th best win pct. Since the NFL Merger, he's 3rd. If he lands another good QB and stays in the game until he's 60, he'll be top 5 in wins all-time and 2nd only to Belichick since the merger.

Wins the thread.

[Jobu]

So after reading that piece of shit (the word “garbage” doesn’t do it justice) article here’s what I took from it.
Mike Tomlin is a great head coach, one of the best ever.
The City of Pittsburgh is racist.
Terry Bradshaw is racist.
The PPG is racist.
Donald Trump is racist.
Andy Reid is a winner because he has a black QB.
Mike Tomlin is a winner despite having a white, over the hill QB.

Did I miss anything?

[Kodiak]

Tomlin's body of work the past 10 years has been absolutely fucking average. Harbaugh won a SB with Joe Flacco, in an offense he re-tooled on the fly mid-year. No comparison.

Tomlin needs to do something in the postseason - SOON - or he needs to meet the Turk.

[Pabst]

So after reading that piece of shit (the word “garbage” doesn’t do it justice) article here’s what I took from it.
Mike Tomlin is a great head coach, one of the best ever.
The City of Pittsburgh is racist.
Terry Bradshaw is racist.
The PPG is racist.
Donald Trump is racist.
Andy Reid is a winner because he has a black QB.
Mike Tomlin is a winner despite having a white, over the hill QB.

Did I miss anything?

I mean, it's a deadspin article. What did you expect?

[bradshaw2ben]

Tomlin's body of work the past 10 years has been absolutely fucking average. Harbaugh won a SB with Joe Flacco, in an offense he re-tooled on the fly mid-year. No comparison.

Tomlin needs to do something in the postseason - SOON - or he needs to meet the Turk.

Yes, How can we deal with this level of mediocrity???!!!

[Pabst]

Tomlin's body of work the past 10 years has been absolutely fucking average. Harbaugh won a SB with Joe Flacco, in an offense he re-tooled on the fly mid-year. No comparison.

Tomlin needs to do something in the postseason - SOON - or he needs to meet the Turk.

What's with the arbitrary 10 year time frame? Why not 5? How about since 2008? Why not compare records for just this season?

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're cherry picking that time frame in order to give Harbaugh the best possible advantage.

[bradshaw2ben]

Mind you, that's in the period of Tomin's career most would consider to be his WORST and most average.

[Jobu]

So after reading that piece of shit (the word “garbage” doesn’t do it justice) article here’s what I took from it.
Mike Tomlin is a great head coach, one of the best ever.
The City of Pittsburgh is racist.
Terry Bradshaw is racist.
The PPG is racist.
Donald Trump is racist.
Andy Reid is a winner because he has a black QB.
Mike Tomlin is a winner despite having a white, over the hill QB.

Did I miss anything?

I mean, it's a deadspin article. What did you expect?

I didn’t catch that...nuff said.

[stillthere]

So after reading that piece of shit (the word “garbage” doesn’t do it justice) article here’s what I took from it.
Mike Tomlin is a great head coach, one of the best ever.
The City of Pittsburgh is racist.
Terry Bradshaw is racist.
The PPG is racist.
Donald Trump is racist.
Andy Reid is a winner because he has a black QB.
Mike Tomlin is a winner despite having a white, over the hill QB.

Did I miss anything?

I mean, it's a deadspin article. What did you expect?

The exact reason I didn't even click on the link.

[K_C_]

Tomlin's body of work the past 10 years has been absolutely fucking average. Harbaugh won a SB with Joe Flacco, in an offense he re-tooled on the fly mid-year. No comparison.

Tomlin needs to do something in the postseason - SOON - or he needs to meet the Turk.

What's with the arbitrary 10 year time frame? Why not 5? How about since 2008? Why not compare records for just this season?

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're cherry picking that time frame in order to give Harbaugh the best possible advantage.

Picking the last decade is cherry picking?



Riiiiiiiight.

[Pabst]

Tomlin's body of work the past 10 years has been absolutely fucking average. Harbaugh won a SB with Joe Flacco, in an offense he re-tooled on the fly mid-year. No comparison.

Tomlin needs to do something in the postseason - SOON - or he needs to meet the Turk.

What's with the arbitrary 10 year time frame? Why not 5? How about since 2008? Why not compare records for just this season?

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're cherry picking that time frame in order to give Harbaugh the best possible advantage.

Picking the last decade is cherry picking?



Riiiiiiiight.

Why 10 as opposed to 5? Why stop at 2010 instead of going back to 2008 (the year Harbaugh came into the league)?

Pretty convenient that the chosen time frame is immediately after the Steelers last SB appearance and immediately before the last Ravens' SB. Why not compare W/L % of both coaches after their last SB appearances?

[LakecrestSteeler]

I think Tomlin has accomplished enough to be in the HOF. Winning another SB, he will become an automatic inductee. Yes he has had some disappointing losses and some inexplicable calls but if Marv Levy can be in the HOF so can Mike Tomlin.

Definitely!

[Kodiak]

What's with the arbitrary 10 year time frame? Why not 5? How about since 2008? Why not compare records for just this season?

Yeah, a decade in the "what-have-you-done-lately" NFL is hardly arbitrary. Not to mention, it's really when the core coaches and players started leaving and retiring. The 2010 SB team was getting old, but still had a HOF QB in his prime, along with 12 other starters held over from Cowher's 2005 team...plus Lebeau and Arians.

And there's another indicator we've talked about before - Tomlin's anemic coaching tree, which is actually more of a reverse coaching tree (he's had 3 former HC's under him, while only 1 guy became a HC, thru dumb luck).

[K_C_]

What's with the arbitrary 10 year time frame? Why not 5? How about since 2008? Why not compare records for just this season?

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're cherry picking that time frame in order to give Harbaugh the best possible advantage.

Picking the last decade is cherry picking?



Riiiiiiiight.

Why 10 as opposed to 5? Why stop at 2010 instead of going back to 2008 (the year Harbaugh came into the league)?

Pretty convenient that the chosen time frame is immediately after the Steelers last SB appearance and immediately before the last Ravens' SB. Why not compare W/L % of both coaches after their last SB appearances?

Yes.

The last Super Bowl appearance for Hall of Famer Mike Tomlin was over a decade ago.

Glad you get it now.

[Texas Black & Gold]

Are there actually Steeler fans on here that are opposed to Mike Tomlin being in the HOF? I understand that there might be other coaches ahead of him but to be opposed makes no sense to me.

[Pabst]

What's with the arbitrary 10 year time frame? Why not 5? How about since 2008? Why not compare records for just this season?

Yeah, a decade in the "what-have-you-done-lately" NFL is hardly arbitrary. Not to mention, it's really when the core coaches and players started leaving and retiring. The 2010 SB team was getting old, but still had a HOF QB in his prime, along with 12 other starters held over from Cowher's 2005 team...plus Lebeau and Arians.

And there's another indicator we've talked about before - Tomlin's anemic coaching tree, which is actually more of a reverse coaching tree (he's had 3 former HC's under him, while only 1 guy became a HC, thru dumb luck).

Harbaugh has produced exactly 1 as well - Chuck Pagano. (I'm not counting Rex Ryan, who was the DC for Baltimore for 3 years before Harbaugh showed up).

[Pabst]

Picking the last decade is cherry picking?



Riiiiiiiight.

Why 10 as opposed to 5? Why stop at 2010 instead of going back to 2008 (the year Harbaugh came into the league)?

Pretty convenient that the chosen time frame is immediately after the Steelers last SB appearance and immediately before the last Ravens' SB. Why not compare W/L % of both coaches after their last SB appearances?

Yes.

The last Super Bowl appearance for Hall of Famer Mike Tomlin was over a decade ago.

Glad you get it now.

That's more recent than Sean Payton.

Andy Reid went 15 years between SB appearances

Harbaugh is currently at 8 years, Carroll at 7 years.

[Baltostiller]

Tomlin will get into the HoF. The bar has been severely lowered (see Cowher, Bill).

What matters to me is, since losing to the Packers in the super bowl, he is 3-5 in the playoffs in those 9 years. And please spare me the "but so and so got hurt, etc." Bullshit. Every coach deals with injuries and adversity. Tomlin has not been able to overcome it. IF he wins a SB with this team or IF he wins one Post-Ben then I'll crown his ass.

In my opinion, he is a great motivator and good leader of men, but a shit tactician and absolutely game day imbecile.

[SteelPro]

Name 30 better

Name 15 better

Since I'm bored. These are the coaches that clearly rank above Tomlin (in no particular order):
1. Lombardi
2. Halas
3. Belichick
4. Shula
5. Noll
6. Walsh
7. Paul Brown
8. Joe Gibbs
9. Landry

Debatable/Guys on the same level:
10. George Allen
11. Jimmy Johnson
12. Hank Stram
13. Weeb Ewbank
14. Bill Parcells
15. Tony Dungy
16. Bill Cowher
17. Bud Grant
18. John Madden
19. Mike Shanahan
20. Sid Gillman
21. Mike Holmgren

Way too old, but including them anyway:
22. Steve Owen
23. Curly Lambeau

Tomlin's Contemporaries:
24. Andy Reid
25. Sean Payton
26. Pete Carroll
27. John Harbaugh

Feel free to add anyone I've missed. Once you get outside of the top 9, you really need to start making a case.

Tom Coughlin is a clear miss. George Seifert probably deserves to be in the discussion.

[Pabst]

Tom Coughlin is a clear miss. George Seifert probably deserves to be in the discussion.

Seifert is tough to judge. He was great in San Fran, but terrible in Carolina. He also wasn't an NFL coach for very long.


Coughlin was intentional - he missed the playoff 11 times in his 20 seasons. Here's a crazy stat: In his 12 years as Giants coach, he failed to win a playoff game in 10 of them. The 2 Super Bowl runs were the only seasons in which he won a playoff game. Last thing is that Coughlin noticeably lost his team in both of his HC tenures....both the Jags and the Giants went to shit in his final years. He's definitely one of those coaches with a limited shelf life (see: John Tortorella).

[K_C_]

Why 10 as opposed to 5? Why stop at 2010 instead of going back to 2008 (the year Harbaugh came into the league)?

Pretty convenient that the chosen time frame is immediately after the Steelers last SB appearance and immediately before the last Ravens' SB. Why not compare W/L % of both coaches after their last SB appearances?

Yes.

The last Super Bowl appearance for Hall of Famer Mike Tomlin was over a decade ago.

Glad you get it now.

That's more recent than Sean Payton.

Andy Reid went 15 years between SB appearances

Harbaugh is currently at 8 years, Carroll at 7 years.

Reid won last year.

That's pretty recent.

Harbaugh and Carroll also won the big one more recently than Tomlin.

I'd also LOVE to know Harbaugh and Carroll's postseason record the last decade compared to Mikey T.

I'll bet they're both significantly better and would be very surprised if its otherwise.

[tbsteel]

Yeah let's ignore last year.

Hell, let's ignore any part of the record that doesn't jibe with our preconceived notion.

This team has only grossly underacheived if you think Super Bowls are our birthright and if you don't give a crap about the stars of the team being hurt. And if you never accept that even reloading-type rebuilding is a necessity.

They had Ben, AB, Shazier or Troy, & Bell... inarguably their 4 best stars on the field all healthy from start to finish of a playoff game exactly twice: Blew out Miami in the wild card round and beat KC in KC. They had Bell, AB & Ben for 1 full playoff game without Shazier, scored 42 points vs the #1 defense in the NFL and lost because the defense couldn't stop the run.

If you want to lay the blame for not having a 2nd Shazier/AB/Bell/Ben plan that was enough, then that's fair... but that's a pretty weak argument for why he's not a top coach.

2007-2011 Playoffs 4/5 years, 2x AFC Champs, 1 SB win
2012-2013 D got old, OL needed upgrades. Rebuilding: Offense first
2014 - Offense had the pieces, Defense hit rock bottom of old/rebuild
2015-2017 Offense was elite, Defense finally rebuilt. Injuries to stars for postseason killed them in this era (in one season, they lost Bell, AB, & Ben's throwing arm and still won in Cincy, almost won in Denver), capped by losing Shazier forever
2018 - Internal strife w Bell/AB drama, offense became quite good in season, but missed FGs doomed their playoff chances and AB lost his mind
2019 - Ben injury but dominant defense
2020 - Top 5 scoring team, top 5 fewest points allowed. 8-0

I would have thought last year's coaching job would have put this to rest and, if not, starting 8-0 with a team that hasn't even played its best footbal yet would certainly have done it. Yet... here we are.

Also, when are all reputable football writers/pundits/fans going to stop using total yards for a measuring stick of offense/defense? It it the dumbest, least contextual, worst way of evaluating football (give up 13 yards on 4th and 11 and you are worse than the team who gives up a 6 yard run on 3rd and short).

Pittsburgh Steelers 2020 DVOA
overall 4th (25.2% above average)
offense 15th (2.0% above average)
defense 2nd (21.5% above average)
STs 11th (1.7% above average) (9th in FG/XP kicking, 9th in kick coverage, 28th in punting, 5th KR, 4th PR)

That meshes a little better with what my eyes tell me.

...ditto.

[Jobu]

Tomlin will get into the HoF. The bar has been severely lowered (see Cowher, Bill).

Thats the day the HoF bar went from “great” to “pretty good”.
Tomlin is a shoe in...so are Reid, Harbaugh, Carrol, Peterson, McCarthy...
If you have a Super Bowl win on the resume, regardless of anything else, you’re getting that gold jacket.
The HoF is becoming as significant as the Pro Bowl.

[Pabst]

Reid won last year.

That's pretty recent.

Wasn't my argument. I see we're back to this crap.

Since you're just going to hammer the point of playoff wins since 2010 and nothing else, I'll just refer you to B2B's previous posts on this subject and be done with it.

[Pabst]

Tomlin will get into the HoF. The bar has been severely lowered (see Cowher, Bill).

Thats the day the HoF bar went from “great” to “pretty good”.
Tomlin is a shoe in...so are Reid, Harbaugh, Carrol, Peterson, McCarthy...
If you have a Super Bowl win on the resume, regardless of anything else, you’re getting that gold jacket.
The HoF is becoming as significant as the Pro Bowl.

Agree with the rest, but at this point neither one of these guys are a shoe in. Plenty of SB winning coaches aren't in the Hall.

[Havoc]

Living here in DFW, I didn't see much difference between Jason Garrett and Mike Tomlin.

Both conservative coaches playing conservative checkers which can win RS games but doesn't translate well to the PS.

Both rah rah types with great people skills, represented their franchise well.

Garrett had the bad fortune of Jones the GM and Jones the owner.

Tomlin has the great fortune of having the underrated Colbert and the Rooneys.

Cowboys fans who wanted Garrett gone were tired of his conservative philosophy and tired of him coming up short in the PS.

Garrett wasn't a "bad" coach. He was fired because he didn't get the team over the PS hump.

[SteelPro]

Tom Coughlin is a clear miss. George Seifert probably deserves to be in the discussion.

Seifert is tough to judge. He was great in San Fran, but terrible in Carolina. He also wasn't an NFL coach for very long.


Coughlin was intentional - he missed the playoff 11 times in his 20 seasons. Here's a crazy stat: In his 12 years as Giants coach, he failed to win a playoff game in 10 of them. The 2 Super Bowl runs were the only seasons in which he won a playoff game. Last thing is that Coughlin noticeably lost his team in both of his HC tenures....both the Jags and the Giants went to shit in his final years. He's definitely one of those coaches with a limited shelf life (see: John Tortorella).

Here is my argument for Coughlin. First off he took an expansion team and turned it into a legit contender. In fact, in doing so he made the Steelers an also ran in the late 90’s. He also has a significantly better playoff record than Tomlin. And he got that better record by winning a bunch of games his teams weren’t supposed to win. Big big upsets. Name one big playoff upset victory on Tomlin’s resume. You can’t. The reason you can’t is that he has only one upset playoff win and that was as a small 2.5 point dog against KC in 2017. Coughlin has two playoff wins when his teams were 12.5 point dogs. He has 6 playoff wins in which his team was a 7+ point dog.

[K_C_]

Reid won last year.

That's pretty recent.

Wasn't my argument. I see we're back to this crap.

Since you're just going to hammer the point of playoff wins since 2010 and nothing else, I'll just refer you to B2B's previous posts on this subject and be done with it.

Yes....because getting to the playoffs and winning is what makes a Hall of Fame coach.

What the fuck?



So, I guess Mikey T. locked up his Hall of Fame resume prior to 2010.