Zierlein on Steelers and Rooney draft

[Scunge]

Thing is, the game is going more towards the college game... where all of these stud RBs ran their whole careers out of shotgun.

I'm not convinced that running out of shotgun makes the RB's job "very difficult".

Look at Peyton Manning's late career. He had less mobility than Ben, they ran everything out of shotgun. Here are Denver's total offense numbers and their Rush rankings in those uyears:

2012: #2 OFF, 13th rush
2013: #1 OFF, 5th tush
2014: #3 OFF, 4th rush
2015: 24th, 16th rush

And it wasn't like they had studs at RB, either. In fact, they had a different journeyman/JAG in each of Manning's 4 Denver seasons:
2012: McGahee
2013: Moreno
2014: Anderson
2015: Hillman

In 2012 with McGahee, he had 67.1% of his carries come from under center.

In 2013 with Moreno he had 29.3% of his carries come from under center. They lost the Super Bowl.

In 2014, Anderson and Hillman were their 1-2 combo, their 1A, 1B if you will, they had 119 of their 285 carries under center, 41.8%, they lost in the playoffs the divisional game.

How exactly is this proof that this running from the shotgun is successful? Or that we should emulate it with Ben?

In 2015 Anderson started 10 games, Hillman 6 games, and the Broncos changed the running game. WTF??? How can that be Scunge? Well, they actually did this conservative, traditional thing with the running game by actually having their QB go back under center to help the running game!

Anderson and Hillman combined for 359 carries that year, and 209 of those carries came from under center, 58.2%.

The result that year? They won the damn Super Bowl. They tried that running from the shotgun in 2013-2014 and went back to running more under center in 2015, they came to their senses just as the Steelers must do as well.

We will probably never agree on this, and hey it is all good. I have had these thoughts on the running game and why it has gotten progressively worse as Ben has aged for a long time. This is not like it is something that is unique to Ben I think it happens to a lot of teams as their franchise QB starts to exert himself as a passer, becomes more dominant as a passer. To me it is very hard for one thing to ascend without some cost coming from another part of your offense.

But when your offense becomes lopsided and dependent on that shotgun too much, it becomes limiting. Is anybody going to sit here and argue with me that you can still effectively do play action in the shotgun?

What the Steelers are trying to do with this running from the shotgun is not really that common in the NFL, or at least to the extent that many of you believe it to be. Again, where is the proof? Where are these successful examples of it? To use Peyton Manning as proof?

I look back at his time in Indy, they weren't running from the shotgun! In 2006, they won the Super Bowl and their RB combo of Addai and Rhodes had 401 of their 413 carries come from under center, 97%.

When Peyton had Edgerrin James as his RB, as a rookie he had 98.9% of carries under center, and in his last year James had 96.9% of his carries come from under center.

No, to me, Manning, Ben, even Philip Rivers, teams start to implement this running from the shotgun because of their star QBs declining movement skills and ball handling and not because they think it is more effective then lining up under center.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Clyde Edwards-Helaire

[Scunge]

Clyde Edwards-Helaire?

What is your fixation on this RB?

Okay, I will play.

Game 12 Did not play
Game 13 16 carries 32 yards 0 TDs
Game 14 14 carries 79 yards 0 TDs
Game 15 Did not play, Inactive
Game 16 Did not play, Inactive

Playoff game #1 Did not play, Inactive
Playoff game #2, 6 carries, 7 yards, 1 TD
Super Bowl, 9 carries, 64 yards, 0 TDs

Those last 8 games (including the playoffs), Clyde had 45 carries for 182 yards, a 4.0 yard average and 1 TD.

Why are you wasting my time talking about a midget 3rd down back who was so awesome that he was inactive for half the games as they were trying to repeat as World Champs???

[SteelerDayTrader]

Scunge = not answering the question expert.....lol



Anyone who thinks Ben is the main problem with this team the way Scunge does.......truly doesnt understand football. The end

[Scunge]

Out with the bullshit narrative that Ben in his prime needed a run first offense to set him up. The way we ran the offense during this stretch of games sans the annual Tomlin attrition dumbfest in the first half vs baltimore is more of what we should have done with Bell at RB.

2018 is another example of conservative offense the first portion of the season vs opening up the passing offense the first half of games starting about midway thru the season.

Again, out with the bullshit narrative that Ben in his prime needed a running offense to set him up. We would have gotten more out of the Ben/AB/Bell trio if we had more Ben and less Bell.

There is a lot of confusion as to what I am talking about Havoc.

I am not advocating running the ball 60% of the time.

I am not advocating that Ben needs a strong running game, that he has to lean on a strong running game to be successful.

NO, what I am talking about is specifically, schematically, ONE of the reasons that our running game has deteriorated and it is getting away from the QB playing under center.

I have shown that over the years our RBs have gotten 90-98% of their carries in this manner:

They are lined up 5-7 yards behind the QB, the QB is taking the snap from under center, the ball is snapped, the QB takes the ball and turns and hands the ball to the RB who has been able to get a running start as the ball is exchanged.

When the QB is under center, the O-line can line up in 3 point stances, as our stud rookie Kevin Dotson did last year. In this way they can be lower and explode out of that stance and get that push, plow forward easier.

But that has gone by the wayside as Ben has gotten older. That 90-98% of the carries that are RBs used to get from under center went to 66% when Bell and Williams were here and now it has plummeted to the 47% of last season.

The rest of the NFL with their top rushing attacks and their top tier RBs are not doing this what I call shotgun running game. As I pointed out these teams with legitimate 1,000 yard runners, workhorses, bell cows, are getting 70, 75, 80, 88% of their carries from under center.

You look at Drew Brees in New Orleans, yeah he plays a lot of shotgun, and even at his advanced age, he still lined up under center enough for the running game and for the extra value that it brings for play action and for just the fact of keeping defenses honest.

Alvin Kamara saw 74.6% of his carries come when Drew Brees was taking the snap from under center.

Doing this opens up the play action passing game, because Brees can fake the handoff, defenses bite and then he can strike deep for a big chunk play.

Here are two QBs from last season with their passing stats when lining up under center, guess which one is which.

QB #1 - 18 completions, 35 pass attempts, 217 yards, 51%, 1 TD, 1 INT, 68.4 passer rating

QB#2 - 63 completions, 90 pass attempts, 813 yards, 70%, 7 TDs, 1 INT, 119.4 passer rating.

Ben is QB1 and Drew Brees is QB2. Now not all of that passing was play action when they lined up under center but Brees was way more effective over Ben because at least NO is trying, trying to keep defenses honest, not making it easier to shut their offense down.

What we have is nuts, sheer lunacy.

To sum up my thoughts with a nice big bow. I am fine with a 60-40 pass run ratio. But, when we are running the ball, I want to see our RBs actually be able to get a running start at the snap and then take the handoff from Ben who was under center.

But that is the rub. Ben is really, really awful at this point taking snaps from under center and then passing the football and he is really bad at taking the snap from under center and then doing the exchange with the RB, his footwork and mobility has declined. So, where does that leave us? It leaves you with nothing but workarounds, working around this vet HOF QB.

Instead of a RB getting the ball under center, getting that running start, getting that handoff and exploding into the line, that RB now has to stand flat footed, waiting for Ben in the shotgun to catch the snap and then gingerly hand or flip him the ball. Valuable time is wasted in those moments that the RB is just standing there, the defense has an advantage. It is a pussified way of running the ball and has created this soft offense and soft offensive line.

[Havoc]

Out with the bullshit narrative that Ben in his prime needed a run first offense to set him up. The way we ran the offense during this stretch of games sans the annual Tomlin attrition dumbfest in the first half vs baltimore is more of what we should have done with Bell at RB.

2018 is another example of conservative offense the first portion of the season vs opening up the passing offense the first half of games starting about midway thru the season.

Again, out with the bullshit narrative that Ben in his prime needed a running offense to set him up. We would have gotten more out of the Ben/AB/Bell trio if we had more Ben and less Bell.

There is a lot of confusion as to what I am talking about Havoc.

I am not advocating running the ball 60% of the time.

I am not advocating that Ben needs a strong running game, that he has to lean on a strong running game to be successful.

NO, what I am talking about is specifically, schematically, ONE of the reasons that our running game has deteriorated and it is getting away from the QB playing under center.

I have shown that over the years our RBs have gotten 90-98% of their carries in this manner:

They are lined up 5-7 yards behind the QB, the QB is taking the snap from under center, the ball is snapped, the QB takes the ball and turns and hands the ball to the RB who has been able to get a running start as the ball is exchanged.

When the QB is under center, the O-line can line up in 3 point stances, as our stud rookie Kevin Dotson did last year. In this way they can be lower and explode out of that stance and get that push, plow forward easier.

But that has gone by the wayside as Ben has gotten older. That 90-98% of the carries that are RBs used to get from under center went to 66% when Bell and Williams were here and now it has plummeted to the 47% of last season.

The rest of the NFL with their top rushing attacks and their top tier RBs are not doing this what I call shotgun running game. As I pointed out these teams with legitimate 1,000 yard runners, workhorses, bell cows, are getting 70, 75, 80, 88% of their carries from under center.

You look at Drew Brees in New Orleans, yeah he plays a lot of shotgun, and even at his advanced age, he still lined up under center enough for the running game and for the extra value that it brings for play action and for just the fact of keeping defenses honest.

Alvin Kamara saw 74.6% of his carries come when Drew Brees was taking the snap from under center.

Doing this opens up the play action passing game, because Brees can fake the handoff, defenses bite and then he can strike deep for a big chunk play.

Here are two QBs from last season with their passing stats when lining up under center, guess which one is which.

QB #1 - 18 completions, 35 pass attempts, 217 yards, 51%, 1 TD, 1 INT, 68.4 passer rating

QB#2 - 63 completions, 90 pass attempts, 813 yards, 70%, 7 TDs, 1 INT, 119.4 passer rating.

Ben is QB1 and Drew Brees is QB2. Now not all of that passing was play action when they lined up under center but Brees was way more effective over Ben because at least NO is trying, trying to keep defenses honest, not making it easier to shut their offense down.

What we have is nuts, sheer lunacy.

To sum up my thoughts with a nice big bow. I am fine with a 60-40 pass run ratio. But, when we are running the ball, I want to see our RBs actually be able to get a running start at the snap and then take the handoff from Ben who was under center.

But that is the rub. Ben is really, really awful at this point taking snaps from under center and then passing the football and he is really bad at taking the snap from under center and then doing the exchange with the RB, his footwork and mobility has declined. So, where does that leave us? It leaves you with nothing but workarounds, working around this vet HOF QB.

Instead of a RB getting the ball under center, getting that running start, getting that handoff and exploding into the line, that RB now has to stand flat footed, waiting for Ben in the shotgun to catch the snap and then gingerly hand or flip him the ball. Valuable time is wasted in those moments that the RB is just standing there, the defense has an advantage. It is a pussified way of running the ball and has created this soft offense and soft offensive line.

Scunge, I have great respect for your football opinions.

I have done some research and see gurus that agree with your general view on the shotgun and I see gurus who disagree.

I'm looking at a graph from an article posted in 2020 that shows Kamara equally good at running with the QB under center and the shotgun.

There are arguments for taking snaps under center and arguments for the shotgun, both have advantages and weaknesses. I just don't see the shotgun being enough to decimate our run game when it's obvious we once had a great OL which Bell benefited from for years and the OL got old thus guys retiring and our LT is wanted by noone.

Interesting, the view from this article is shotgun is better for running and worse for passing.

https://www.thespax.com/nfl/the-nfls-m ... ing-backs/

[SteelerDayTrader]

If Scunge were truthful hed admit he just makes up stats that suit his perceptions and conspicuously ignores those that dont......lol

[K_C_]

Out with the bullshit narrative that Ben in his prime needed a run first offense to set him up. The way we ran the offense during this stretch of games sans the annual Tomlin attrition dumbfest in the first half vs baltimore is more of what we should have done with Bell at RB.

2018 is another example of conservative offense the first portion of the season vs opening up the passing offense the first half of games starting about midway thru the season.

Again, out with the bullshit narrative that Ben in his prime needed a running offense to set him up. We would have gotten more out of the Ben/AB/Bell trio if we had more Ben and less Bell.

There is a lot of confusion as to what I am talking about Havoc.

I am not advocating running the ball 60% of the time.

I am not advocating that Ben needs a strong running game, that he has to lean on a strong running game to be successful.

NO, what I am talking about is specifically, schematically, ONE of the reasons that our running game has deteriorated and it is getting away from the QB playing under center.

I have shown that over the years our RBs have gotten 90-98% of their carries in this manner:

They are lined up 5-7 yards behind the QB, the QB is taking the snap from under center, the ball is snapped, the QB takes the ball and turns and hands the ball to the RB who has been able to get a running start as the ball is exchanged.

When the QB is under center, the O-line can line up in 3 point stances, as our stud rookie Kevin Dotson did last year. In this way they can be lower and explode out of that stance and get that push, plow forward easier.

But that has gone by the wayside as Ben has gotten older. That 90-98% of the carries that are RBs used to get from under center went to 66% when Bell and Williams were here and now it has plummeted to the 47% of last season.

The rest of the NFL with their top rushing attacks and their top tier RBs are not doing this what I call shotgun running game. As I pointed out these teams with legitimate 1,000 yard runners, workhorses, bell cows, are getting 70, 75, 80, 88% of their carries from under center.

You look at Drew Brees in New Orleans, yeah he plays a lot of shotgun, and even at his advanced age, he still lined up under center enough for the running game and for the extra value that it brings for play action and for just the fact of keeping defenses honest.

Alvin Kamara saw 74.6% of his carries come when Drew Brees was taking the snap from under center.

Doing this opens up the play action passing game, because Brees can fake the handoff, defenses bite and then he can strike deep for a big chunk play.

Here are two QBs from last season with their passing stats when lining up under center, guess which one is which.

QB #1 - 18 completions, 35 pass attempts, 217 yards, 51%, 1 TD, 1 INT, 68.4 passer rating

QB#2 - 63 completions, 90 pass attempts, 813 yards, 70%, 7 TDs, 1 INT, 119.4 passer rating.

Ben is QB1 and Drew Brees is QB2. Now not all of that passing was play action when they lined up under center but Brees was way more effective over Ben because at least NO is trying, trying to keep defenses honest, not making it easier to shut their offense down.

What we have is nuts, sheer lunacy.

To sum up my thoughts with a nice big bow. I am fine with a 60-40 pass run ratio. But, when we are running the ball, I want to see our RBs actually be able to get a running start at the snap and then take the handoff from Ben who was under center.

But that is the rub. Ben is really, really awful at this point taking snaps from under center and then passing the football and he is really bad at taking the snap from under center and then doing the exchange with the RB, his footwork and mobility has declined. So, where does that leave us? It leaves you with nothing but workarounds, working around this vet HOF QB.

Instead of a RB getting the ball under center, getting that running start, getting that handoff and exploding into the line, that RB now has to stand flat footed, waiting for Ben in the shotgun to catch the snap and then gingerly hand or flip him the ball. Valuable time is wasted in those moments that the RB is just standing there, the defense has an advantage. It is a pussified way of running the ball and has created this soft offense and soft offensive line.

Scunge, I have great respect for your football opinions.

Having said that...

So if the reason we could not run block last year is the QB prefers the shotgun do we need to talk Pouncey and Foster out of retirement and resign Villy, keep the old gang together since the problem is not that our OL got old but the problem is we lost our ability to run block because our QB prefers the shotgun?

I have done some research and see gurus that agree with your general view on the shotgun and I see gurus who disagree.

I'm looking at a graph from an article posted in 2020 that shows Kamara equally good at running with the QB under center and the shotgun.

There are arguments for taking snaps under center and arguments for the shotgun, both have advantages and weaknesses. I just don't see the shotgun being enough to decimate our run game when it's obvious we once had a great OL which Bell benefited from for years and the OL got old thus guys retiring and our LT is wanted by noone.

Interesting, the view from this article is shotgun is better for running and worse for passing.

https://www.thespax.com/nfl/the-nfls-m ... ing-backs/

Not sure you actually read what Scunge actually wrote.

He said the overuse of shotgun was ONLY ONE reason our running attack has fallen completely apart.

....and he's right.

[Havoc]

Not sure you actually read what Scunge actually wrote.

He said the overuse of shotgun was ONLY ONE reason our running attack has fallen completely apart.

....and he's right.

And one of the reasons the Chicago Bulls stopped winning championships is because they stopped running the triangle offense. No, it's because they had a change in personnel.

Again, the view of the article is shotgun is better for running and worse for passing, I see varying views on the subject.

IMO who it is that is doing the blocking is much more impactful than whether we are running out of shotgun or not. It's not even close.

[Jobu]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... nisj5QcAtk

[Havoc]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... nisj5QcAtk

Which is why I haven't bashed Tomlin for changing the offense last year. The eye test for me was, we couldn't trust the OL to hold blocks to consistently get routes downfield, we couldn't trust the OL to open holes in the run game.

The defensive personnel with the shotgun formation tends to favor the run game. Shouldn't be a surprise.

[SteelerDayTrader]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... nisj5QcAtk

Which is why I haven't bashed Tomlin for changing the offense last year. The eye test for me was, we couldn't trust the OL to hold blocks to consistently get routes downfield, we couldn't trust the OL to open holes in the run game.

The defensive personnel with the shotgun formation tends to favor the run game. Shouldn't be a surprise.

Truth

[K_C_]

Not sure you actually read what Scunge actually wrote.

He said the overuse of shotgun was ONLY ONE reason our running attack has fallen completely apart.

....and he's right.

And one of the reasons the Chicago Bulls stopped winning championships is because they stopped running the triangle offense. No, it's because they had a change in personnel.

Again, the view of the article is shotgun is better for running and worse for passing, I see varying views on the subject.

IMO who it is that is doing the blocking is much more impactful than whether we are running out of shotgun or not. It's not even close.

There were many reasons the Steelers running game sucked last year.

Obviously personnel in the backfield and on the offensive line are probably the most glaring aspects.

But....how fucking often did we run exactly when everybody expected we would? How often did Rustbelt go "run, run, pass", especially in the Steelers own territory?

Playcalling matters. Overuse of the shotgun matters. No, we didn't have the talent in the backfield and the o-line sucked, but there were times I wondered if any fucking backs would succeed with the play calling I had to suffer through on Sundays. ESPECIALLY situational play calling.

We overuse the shotgun. Hell, we're at the point either our QB is too big of a pussy to run a QB sneak, or our head coach is too dumb and too over-protective of a QB on his last legs to use it. It's fucking embarrassing.

That's a big reason the Steelers are too often unsuccessful in short yardage plays.

Ben is too comfortable in the shotgun to the point where he looks uncomfortable under center and our o-line plays like it.

Running the football is just as much about attitude as it is personnel and the Steelers offense, no matter the personnel, has become far too dependent on a QB who isn't anywhere near what he once was, throwing the ball all over the place.

Don't be surprised next year, once the Steelers fix the o-line as much as possible and find a new feature back, if Ben Roethlisberger looks a whole lot more like a "game manager" than he does a franchise QB. Also don't be surprised if you see Roethlisberger under center a lot more than he has been in years.

I've never been a fan of running the football just to run it, but the Steelers need to change the philosophy on offense in a major way.

...and I'll bet they know it.

[Havoc]

Not sure you actually read what Scunge actually wrote.

He said the overuse of shotgun was ONLY ONE reason our running attack has fallen completely apart.

....and he's right.

And one of the reasons the Chicago Bulls stopped winning championships is because they stopped running the triangle offense. No, it's because they had a change in personnel.

Again, the view of the article is shotgun is better for running and worse for passing, I see varying views on the subject.

IMO who it is that is doing the blocking is much more impactful than whether we are running out of shotgun or not. It's not even close.

There were many reasons the Steelers running game sucked last year.

Obviously personnel in the backfield and on the offensive line are probably the most glaring aspects.

But....how fucking often did we run exactly when everybody expected we would? How often did Rustbelt go "run, run, pass", especially in the Steelers own territory?

Playcalling matters. Overuse of the shotgun matters. No, we didn't have the talent in the backfield and the o-line sucked, but there were times I wondered if any fucking backs would succeed with the play calling I had to suffer through on Sundays. ESPECIALLY situational play calling.

We overuse the shotgun. Hell, we're at the point either our QB is too big of a pussy to run a QB sneak, or our head coach is too dumb and too over-protective of a QB on his last legs to use it. It's fucking embarrassing.

That's a big reason the Steelers are too often unsuccessful in short yardage plays.

Ben is too comfortable in the shotgun to the point where he looks uncomfortable under center and our o-line plays like it.

Running the football is just as much about attitude as it is personnel and the Steelers offense, no matter the personnel, has become far too dependent on a QB who isn't anywhere near what he once was, throwing the ball all over the place.

Don't be surprised next year, once the Steelers fix the o-line as much as possible and find a new feature back, if Ben Roethlisberger looks a whole lot more like a "game manager" than he does a franchise QB. Also don't be surprised if you see Roethlisberger under center a lot more than he has been in years.

I've never been a fan of running the football just to run it, but the Steelers need to change the philosophy on offense in a major way.

...and I'll bet they know it.

Tomlin's heart is in the RB position and that's never going to change.

I do not believe they changed philosophy last season. Again, the change in the offense was due to our inability to hold blocks for downfield routes to develop and our inability to run block.

You should check out the 2 articles, the link I posted and the one Jobu posted.

In shotgun formation, you usually get defensive personnel that favors the run game.

The future at RB in this league is Kamara, the past is AP.

We didn't throw the football all over the yard last year and that was a bigger problem than the run game but again, primary reason is we didn't trust the OL and when we did get some downfield opportunities Ben was off with the vertical game last year too often.

We can all hope we are equally good at running, the vertical passing game, and the short passing game next year.

If we run effectively next season, I agree we will rely on it more next season than we did in 2020 and especially with the age of our QB.

[Scunge]

Well, to me overuse of the shotgun is grossly understating the issue and how badly we have used it as a crutch.

Again, let me post how much Ben was in the shotgun last season.

Ben had 608 pass attempts last season, and all but 35 of those pass attempts came with him lining up under center. Ben only lined up under center 5.75% of the time when he was passing the football.

And he was 18 of 35, 51% for 217 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT for a passer rating of 68.4

That is some historically bad shit right there. So, the plan last year was Ben doesn't want to line up under center when he wants to throw the ball. And he doesn't want to line up under center any more than he has to when we run the ball. Our RBs only had 322 combined carries last season and they only saw 149 carries come from under center, meaning Ben being under center and then handling the ball and doing the exchange with the RB, etc. That was just 46% of the carries coming from under center.

I get that our team is rebuilding on offense, the OL got old, new young faces, but one fact that can't be ignored is that this team has had a steady decline in the amount of time that Ben lines up under center and how many carries the RBs get under center. As I pointed out, from the Bettis/Parker days, to Mendenhall to Bell and Williams, to Conner it has been one steady, sliding decline where it is more and more and more shotgun and forcing the running game to partake in it as well, to its detriment. From 98 to 66 to 46 this past year.

There were some who thought hey, make a play for RB Aaron Jones in free agency, got get that stud RB, somehow, someway, fix the running game. Like that was going to happen, but hey people gotta dream. Nice idea but look at what Aaron Jones has in Green Bay, a system that enables him to thrive.

Aaron Jones saw two thirds of his carries come when Aaron Rodgers was lined up under center, 66.66% of his carries came from under center. In looking at a lot of successful, top RBs I think that this 66% threshold is the bare minimum of what you need, and as I pointed out, there are a lot of these bell cow RBs that have percentages way higher, in the 70s, even 80s, like a Derek Henry, Nick Chubb, etc.

So, people may say, hey Aaron Rodgers runs a lot of shotgun. Yes, yes he does, but that does not mean you have to FORCE the running game to adhere to it as well.

Aaron Rodgers had 526 pass attempts this past season, but he still lined up under center for 133 of those pass attempts, 25.3% of the time Aaron Rodgers lined up under center when he passed the football.

He was 91 of 133, 68.4%, for 1,070 yards and get this, 17 TDs and 0 INTs when he lined up under center with a passer rating of 132.2. Rodgers was at his most dangerous when he lined up under center to pass the ball.

And because Rodgers still lined up under center more when running the ball, again Aaron Jones saw 134 of his 201 carries come when Rodgers was under center, then this leaves defenses with a lot to think about, to digest.

Rodgers is under center and they don't actually know if it is run or pass, will they run, pass, is it going to be play action?

Rodgers had an unbelievable 19 TDs, 0 INTs, completed 73.6% of his passes and a 137.5 passer rating when they did play action. And yes, you can still do some play action from the shotgun but with Rodgers and Green Bay they did it the more traditional way, the vast majority of the time.

Yes, having a good/great OL helps, yes, having a good/great QB helps, yes, having a good/great RB helps, a good/great TE, etc.

But all things being equal, if you are not having your QB line up under center, if your plan is to avoid that at all costs, if it is baked into the system, I don't see how your RBs and running game and play action is going to be anything more than poor to mediocre.

[SteelerDayTrader]

^^^^^^ thats because you post alot of made up bs and believe what you want regardless of facts and observation otherwise

[Scunge]

In shotgun formation, you usually get defensive personnel that favors the run game.

The future at RB in this league is Kamara, the past is AP.

Well Alvin Kamara is an interesting case study.

So, the theory is that using shotgun is great for the running game, and Kamara is so much more dangerous being able to run from that shotgun.

But the thing is New Orleans didn't totally sell out and use shotgun running with Kamara in a big way the majority of the time. No, you can get big plays running from the shotgun but you pick your spots, it can't be overused. It can't be a steady diet, instead it has to be that once in a while treat.

Kamara has 672 carries in his 4 year career, how many of those carries came the traditional way, by way of handoff from the QB who took the snap from under center?

520 carries from under center, 77.4%

152 carries from shotgun, 22.6%

And again, because Drew Brees is spending more time under center, that actually opens up the offense more because play action is a real viable threat.

I know people think shotgun is like this elixir from heaven but the way we use it, we have painted ourselves into a corner and actually limited our offense, and especially our RBs who need all the help they can get.

[Havoc]

In shotgun formation, you usually get defensive personnel that favors the run game.

The future at RB in this league is Kamara, the past is AP.

Well Alvin Kamara is an interesting case study.

So, the theory is that using shotgun is great for the running game, and Kamara is so much more dangerous being able to run from that shotgun.

But the thing is New Orleans didn't totally sell out and use shotgun running with Kamara in a big way the majority of the time. No, you can get big plays running from the shotgun but you pick your spots, it can't be overused. It can't be a steady diet, instead it has to be that once in a while treat.

Kamara has 672 carries in his 4 year career, how many of those carries came the traditional way, by way of handoff from the QB who took the snap from under center?

520 carries from under center, 77.4%

152 carries from shotgun, 22.6%

And again, because Drew Brees is spending more time under center, that actually opens up the offense more because play action is a real viable threat.

I know people think shotgun is like this elixir from heaven but the way we use it, we have painted ourselves into a corner and actually limited our offense.

Scunge you make a lot of excellent points.

We have a giant man old slow at QB. I accept this is what we are working with.

I am not convinced 5.75% lining up under center + old Ben = death of offense

Here is the #1 problem with the offense last year...

6.3 YPA

I know you are advocating play action under center to increase QB YPA. I get that.

I'm just not convinced play action under center is the only way to get us there.

We could not run in part last year because teams were sitting on our short routes, we weren't stretching the field.

IMO, we can get good pass protection making a living out of the shotgun, get wrs downfield, complete vertical passes, have a good QB YPA. If we can have success in the vertical passing game it will open up the run game.

[Scunge]

I do want play action to come back in a big way, but I am not convinced Ben will want to do what it takes to bring it back.

I also think that we really aren't going to be able to see what Matt Canada can do with this offense because he has in a sense been 'handcuffed'. How is he really going to be able to do the offense that he wants with a 39 year old QB who has limited mobility at this stage of his career?

I have always preached balance on offense and diversification, meaning getting everybody involved to some extent, more some then others, sure, but why limit yourself? And I feel that we have limited ourselves on offense by over using the shotgun. I see people looking at other teams and yes, I read those two links posted but to me that is just more of the same arguments and pitfalls that people get caught up in. I showed the New Orleans/Kamara dynamic. They don't overuse the shotgun, sprinkle it in, use it just right, still do things under center, they realize that the under center part of the offense is like a jab if you will, that can set up that shotgun right hand knockout. They work in unison, together, building off of each other.

I really don't like this two point stance bullshit from our offensive line on running plays. I laughed when I read reports from some other media and fan sites that complained about Kevin Dotson lining up in a 3 point stance too much and that he would have to unlearn that moving forward. Never mind that even when Dotson lined up in that 3 point stance on pass plays that he still dominated his man. That is how brainwashed we have become in Pittsburgh, yes, that dreaded 3 point stance is to be stamped out at all cost!!!

My hope is that Adrian Klemm brings the 3 point stance and much more back to the offensive line. It shouldn't be all that hard, honestly. Where are all of the old vets that would struggle or fight any new techniques or approaches?? We have a young line now and will probably add maybe two more in the draft, Klemm has a fresh blank slate, should be able to quickly get his way established in short order.

I think Ben should work with the new QB coach and get back to super basic fundamentals in terms of his footwork and getting out from center, handing off, etc. That may seem to be the height of arrogance on my part to suggest that Ben has anything new to learn, but to my eye, all of this basic stuff is suffering. What about things like play action? Ben has never really sold play action like some other QBs that I have seen. He does nothing to conceal the fact that he still has the ball when he does a fake handoff, overall this part of his game is sloppy.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Klemm is a disaster as a coach and human being

I have ZERO faith he will help anything

[beerbrother]

I really don't like this two point stance bullshit from our offensive line on running plays. I laughed when I read reports from some other media and fan sites that complained about Kevin Dotson lining up in a 3 point stance too much and that he would have to unlearn that moving forward. Never mind that even when Dotson lined up in that 3 point stance on pass plays that he still dominated his man. That is how brainwashed we have become in Pittsburgh, yes, that dreaded 3 point stance is to be stamped out at all cost!!!

Saw a post game with Hoke discussing the O-line's run blocking.

He showed examples of them attempting to run block from the 2 point stance and getting dominated.

Too expect different results without change is about as smart as driving a car off a cliff.

[Havoc]

Foster retired. Change. Pouncey retired. Change. Villy not on the roster. Change.

I wonder if this has something in common with, "Get a fullback" (I'm not referring to the article linked below)

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Ste ... 1510090303

[El Kabong]

Klemm is a disaster as a coach and human being

I have ZERO faith he will help anything

Care to explain this?

[Jobu]

Klemm is a disaster as a coach and human being

I have ZERO faith he will help anything

Care to explain this?

I assume he’s referring to this...
https://www.dailynews.com/jim-mora-adri ... its-allege

[beerbrother]

Foster retired. Change. Pouncey retired. Change. Villy not on the roster. Change.

I wonder if this has something in common with, "Get a fullback" (I'm not referring to the article linked below)

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Ste ... 1510090303

From the gazette story

“When we’re running the ball I want to be in a three-point stance,” Beachum said. “But there are nuances to it. If the quarterback checks to a running play, you don’t want to put your hand in the dirt because you would give it away.

“And when a pass play is called, coming out of a predominant run stance and trying to pass block… you don’t want to put yourself in a bad position. You always want to put yourself in the best position to thrive. But when it’s a run down, I want to be in a run stance, a three-point stance, and get after it.”

The team passes more than it runs, it makes sense to utilize the two-point stance. Can make it tough running against a stout defense.

Oline coach change. Offensive coordinate change.

They already changed the fullback. Still couldn't gain a yard when they needed it.

Is there a doubt when Rooney makes comments about needing change.

Gerry Dulac
@gerrydulac
·
Jan 28
Rooney said the Steelers have already started to make changes to their running game and "there's more to come." He referenced changes on the roster, pointing up that James Conner is a free agent.

Bob Labriola
@BobLabriola
·
Jan 28
More on the running game from #Steelers President Art Rooney II: It has to start with a commitment to the running game. I don't know that we've always had that.

[Jobu]

A2 is the owner, and obviously has the right to say and do what he wants with his team. But I’m pretty sure that he has no clue on what it takes to fix the running game.

[SteelerDayTrader]

A2 is the owner, and obviously has the right to say and do what he wants with his team. But I’m pretty sure that he has no clue

^^^^^ fixed

[Havoc]

A2 is the owner, and obviously has the right to say and do what he wants with his team. But I’m pretty sure that he has no clue on what it takes to fix the running game.

Last time I remember the owner making statements on the run game, the next season Ben's YPA dropped and we had an offense 22nd in the league in offense points per game.

I can imagine this scenario...

We run the ball "better" next year and it results in zero net gain in Pts/Dr and half Steelers Nation believes we improved the offense.

Saying this again...

The #1 problem with this offense last year was QB YPA, lack of vertical passing game.

[SteelerDayTrader]

A2 is the owner, and obviously has the right to say and do what he wants with his team. But I’m pretty sure that he has no clue on what it takes to fix the running game.

Last time I remember the owner making statements on the run game, the next season Ben's YPA dropped and we had an offense 22nd in the league in offense points per game.

I can imagine this scenario...

We run the ball "better" next year and it results in zero net gain in Pts/Dr and half Steelers Nation believes we improved the offense.

Saying this again...

The #1 problem with this offense last year was QB YPA, lack of vertical passing game.

I mostly agree....but.....Id underline that stems from horrible OL RB WR and TE units in a big way along with poor coaching

[Thrillsseeker]

Horrible line play.
Horrible coaching/play calling.
Mediocre to below talented RB’s.
Dropped fucking passes.
Bens mobility.

^^^^in that order.