Ben Roethlisberger voices frustration on final season with Steelers

[Pabst]

And Patrick Mahomes.

Mahomes is not in the latter half of his career, and last year was the first season under his major contract extension.

[W&M_Steeler]

And Patrick Mahomes.

Mahomes is not in the latter half of his career, and last year was the first season under his major contract extension.

Ok, I guess we'll see. Maybe Mahomes will get saddled with a complacent, defensive minded coach for the latter half of his career too.

Lack of cap space wasn't the issue for the Steelers in 2014 - 2018. At most, more cap space would have allowed the Steelers to better paper over some of the poor defensive drafting of the mid-2010s, at the expense of not having a hall of fame QB.

The Steelers O was loaded in 2014-2018, and the D was good enough to not be a liability for a coach who preferred scoring points to attrition football. There is always an element of luck involved in winning a Super Bowl, but the mid 2010s Steelers should have accomplished more than what they did.

[Pabst]

And Patrick Mahomes.

Mahomes is not in the latter half of his career, and last year was the first season under his major contract extension.

Ok, I guess we'll see. Maybe Mahomes will get saddled with a complacent, defensive minded coach for the latter half of his career too.

Lack of cap space wasn't the issue for the Steelers in 2014 - 2018. At most, more cap space would have allowed the Steelers to better paper over some of the poor defensive drafting of the mid-2010s, at the expense of not having a hall of fame QB.

The Steelers O was loaded in 2014-2018, and the D was good enough to not be a liability for a coach who preferred scoring points to attrition football. There is always an element of luck involved in winning a Super Bowl, but the mid 2010s Steelers should have accomplished more than what they did.

Lack of cap space was most certainly an issue for the Steelers going back to 2012 and beyond. Now couple that with Drafting in the late stages of each round, paying a premium to retain players, as well as replacing the entire roster over a decade.

The Saints had an elite QB and a loaded offense and never went to the SB after 2009.
Green Bay never went back after 2010.
Seattle never went back after 2014.
The Rams / Sean McVay are now paying the price for loading up their roster for a SB run in 2021.

Maybe Mahomes will be saddled with a complacent coach in his later years. Or maybe the roster will suffer just like the Steelers' did over a decade ago.

In 2023 KC will be replacing their top 2 WRs from last season, both starting OTs, Their top Edge rusher is gone, as is their starting FS from last year. Travis Kelce will be 34. Chris Jones will be 30 and is entering the final year of his contract. Will Reid/Mahomes overcome that? Maybe, but thus far every QB not named Tom Brady has failed.

[W&M_Steeler]

Mahomes is not in the latter half of his career, and last year was the first season under his major contract extension.

Ok, I guess we'll see. Maybe Mahomes will get saddled with a complacent, defensive minded coach for the latter half of his career too.

Lack of cap space wasn't the issue for the Steelers in 2014 - 2018. At most, more cap space would have allowed the Steelers to better paper over some of the poor defensive drafting of the mid-2010s, at the expense of not having a hall of fame QB.

The Steelers O was loaded in 2014-2018, and the D was good enough to not be a liability for a coach who preferred scoring points to attrition football. There is always an element of luck involved in winning a Super Bowl, but the mid 2010s Steelers should have accomplished more than what they did.

Lack of cap space was most certainly an issue for the Steelers going back to 2012 and beyond. Now couple that with Drafting in the late stages of each round, paying a premium to retain players, as well as replacing the entire roster over a decade.

I don't think your explanation is persuasive, at least not as a primary cause. 2014 is a perfect example. The Steelers flopped that year because they lost to two terrible, bottom-feeding teams, the 2-14 Buccaneers and the 4-12 Jets. The Steelers didn't lose to those teams because of lack of talent or depth. They lost because Tomlin era Steelers teams have a tendency to not take bad teams seriously and under perform in / lose trap games. Win those games and the Steelers finish 13-3, have the 1 seed, and maybe even rest starters part of week 17 and avoid Bell's injury. Instead, they finish in the 3rd seed and have to play the Ravens at home without Bell.

This problem was compounded by the decision to cut LeGarrette Blount mid-season for insubordination. The Steelers created their own depth problem through poor personnel management (either by signing Blount in the first place given his reputation or by failing to find a way to keep him on board).

In the end, the Steelers put themselves in a position to fail that year, and did so in a way that had nothing to do with cap space. The Steelers had all the tools needed to go into the playoffs that year with a bye and the number 1 seed. Instead, they underperformed and wound up starting street free agent Ben Tate and losing in the Wild Card round.

I don't agree that the Steelers were doomed to never win the Super Bowl because of Ben's contract, but that's not even really my argument. The 2014-18 Steelers didn't come close to being in a Super Bowl and only managed to make 1 AFCC game. Those teams should have accomplished more given what they had. It's not the case that they had limited potential due to cap problems but maximized and made the best of what they had. Rather, they squandered their potential and didn't accomplish as much as they could or should have (multiple AFCC games at least).

[W&M_Steeler]

Also, the drafting in the late stages of the round excuse isn't very good. For a recent example, the Steelers took TJ Watt at pick 30, significantly later than Jarvis Jones (17), Bud Dupree (22), and Devin Bush (10). There are still good players left in the end of the first round. Unfortunately, the Steelers went through a bad defensive drafting spell in the mid-2010s. Poor drafting amplifies cap problems, but the Steelers poor decisions weren't solely the result of draft position.

[Pabst]

Ok, I guess we'll see. Maybe Mahomes will get saddled with a complacent, defensive minded coach for the latter half of his career too.

Lack of cap space wasn't the issue for the Steelers in 2014 - 2018. At most, more cap space would have allowed the Steelers to better paper over some of the poor defensive drafting of the mid-2010s, at the expense of not having a hall of fame QB.

The Steelers O was loaded in 2014-2018, and the D was good enough to not be a liability for a coach who preferred scoring points to attrition football. There is always an element of luck involved in winning a Super Bowl, but the mid 2010s Steelers should have accomplished more than what they did.

Lack of cap space was most certainly an issue for the Steelers going back to 2012 and beyond. Now couple that with Drafting in the late stages of each round, paying a premium to retain players, as well as replacing the entire roster over a decade.

I don't think your explanation is persuasive, at least not as a primary cause. 2014 is a perfect example. The Steelers flopped that year because they lost to two terrible, bottom-feeding teams, the 2-14 Buccaneers and the 4-12 Jets. The Steelers didn't lose to those teams because of lack of talent or depth. They lost because Tomlin era Steelers teams have a tendency to not take bad teams seriously and under perform in / lose trap games. Win those games and the Steelers finish 13-3, have the 1 seed, and maybe even rest starters part of week 17 and avoid Bell's injury. Instead, they finish in the 3rd seed and have to play the Ravens at home without Bell.

This problem was compounded by the decision to cut LeGarrette Blount mid-season for insubordination. The Steelers created their own depth problem through poor personnel management (either by signing Blount in the first place given his reputation or by failing to find a way to keep him on board).

In the end, the Steelers put themselves in a position to fail that year, and did so in a way that had nothing to do with cap space. The Steelers had all the tools needed to go into the playoffs that year with a bye and the number 1 seed. Instead, they underperformed and wound up starting street free agent Ben Tate and losing in the Wild Card round.

I don't agree that the Steelers were doomed to never win the Super Bowl because of Ben's contract, but that's not even really my argument. The 2014-18 Steelers didn't come close to being in a Super Bowl and only managed to make 1 AFCC game. Those teams should have accomplished more given what they had. It's not the case that they had limited potential due to cap problems but maximized and made the best of what they had. Rather, they squandered their potential and didn't accomplish as much as they could or should have (multiple AFCC games at least).

Ben Roethlisberger was 32 years old in 2014. Here is a full, comprehensive list of QB's 32 and older to start in a Super Bowl over the last 20 years:
- Tom Brady
- Peyton Manning
- Matt Stafford
- Kurt Warner

That's it. Brady and Manning are the only ones who did it on their original teams (and Manning lost). Stafford was traded to a team that mortgaged their entire future. Warner had the weirdest career imaginable.

Nitpick what I said all you like. The fact is that the standard you're holding the Steelers/Tomlin to has only been achieved by the 2 greatest QBs in NFL history.

I'm not suggesting that the couldn't have drafted better in the 2010s. What I'm saying is that the chance of drafting a bust is much higher when drafting late. Go look at New Orleans', Green Bay, New England, etc during this same time period. Plenty of busts to be had.


Ultimately my entire point is this: Stop looking at the Steelers in a vacuum. When you actually compare them with peers things aren't nearly as bad as too many on this board make it sound.

[Professor Half Wit]

Lack of cap space was most certainly an issue for the Steelers going back to 2012 and beyond. Now couple that with Drafting in the late stages of each round, paying a premium to retain players, as well as replacing the entire roster over a decade.

I don't think your explanation is persuasive, at least not as a primary cause. 2014 is a perfect example. The Steelers flopped that year because they lost to two terrible, bottom-feeding teams, the 2-14 Buccaneers and the 4-12 Jets. The Steelers didn't lose to those teams because of lack of talent or depth. They lost because Tomlin era Steelers teams have a tendency to not take bad teams seriously and under perform in / lose trap games. Win those games and the Steelers finish 13-3, have the 1 seed, and maybe even rest starters part of week 17 and avoid Bell's injury. Instead, they finish in the 3rd seed and have to play the Ravens at home without Bell.

This problem was compounded by the decision to cut LeGarrette Blount mid-season for insubordination. The Steelers created their own depth problem through poor personnel management (either by signing Blount in the first place given his reputation or by failing to find a way to keep him on board).

In the end, the Steelers put themselves in a position to fail that year, and did so in a way that had nothing to do with cap space. The Steelers had all the tools needed to go into the playoffs that year with a bye and the number 1 seed. Instead, they underperformed and wound up starting street free agent Ben Tate and losing in the Wild Card round.

I don't agree that the Steelers were doomed to never win the Super Bowl because of Ben's contract, but that's not even really my argument. The 2014-18 Steelers didn't come close to being in a Super Bowl and only managed to make 1 AFCC game. Those teams should have accomplished more given what they had. It's not the case that they had limited potential due to cap problems but maximized and made the best of what they had. Rather, they squandered their potential and didn't accomplish as much as they could or should have (multiple AFCC games at least).

Ben Roethlisberger was 32 years old in 2014. Here is a full, comprehensive list of QB's 32 and older to start in a Super Bowl over the last 20 years:
- Tom Brady
- Peyton Manning
- Matt Stafford
- Kurt Warner

That's it. Brady and Manning are the only ones who did it on their original teams (and Manning lost). Stafford was traded to a team that mortgaged their entire future. Warner had the weirdest career imaginable.

Nitpick what I said all you like. The fact is that the standard you're holding the Steelers/Tomlin to has only been achieved by the 2 greatest QBs in NFL history.

I'm not suggesting that the couldn't have drafted better in the 2010s. What I'm saying is that the chance of drafting a bust is much higher when drafting late. Go look at New Orleans', Green Bay, New England, etc during this same time period. Plenty of busts to be had.


Ultimately my entire point is this: Stop looking at the Steelers in a vacuum. When you actually compare them with peers things aren't nearly as bad as too many on this board make it sound.

You obviously lack a sound understanding of performance attribution.

[Pabst]

You obviously lack a sound understanding of performance attribution.

Either that, or people really think that the Steelers are the only team that's lost to bad teams and/or drafted busts over the last 10 years.

[Professor Half Wit]

You obviously lack a sound understanding of performance attribution.

Either that, or people really think that the Steelers are the only team that's lost to bad teams and/or drafted busts over the last 10 years.

The standard, I am told, for determining who is average or worse is playoff wins (those who fall short of consistent [?] play off wins are average or worse.) Overall win percentage, I am told, is not an appropriate standard.

Now, I'd like to see Tomlin gone, but that's because i don't think his vision for how a team should play ball is going to get the job done in the current version of the game.

I'm kinda excited for bully ball, though. We'll see!

[Jobu]

I'm kinda excited for bully ball, though. We'll see!

You’ll probably get over that around week 3…

[W&M_Steeler]

Lack of cap space was most certainly an issue for the Steelers going back to 2012 and beyond. Now couple that with Drafting in the late stages of each round, paying a premium to retain players, as well as replacing the entire roster over a decade.

I don't think your explanation is persuasive, at least not as a primary cause. 2014 is a perfect example. The Steelers flopped that year because they lost to two terrible, bottom-feeding teams, the 2-14 Buccaneers and the 4-12 Jets. The Steelers didn't lose to those teams because of lack of talent or depth. They lost because Tomlin era Steelers teams have a tendency to not take bad teams seriously and under perform in / lose trap games. Win those games and the Steelers finish 13-3, have the 1 seed, and maybe even rest starters part of week 17 and avoid Bell's injury. Instead, they finish in the 3rd seed and have to play the Ravens at home without Bell.

This problem was compounded by the decision to cut LeGarrette Blount mid-season for insubordination. The Steelers created their own depth problem through poor personnel management (either by signing Blount in the first place given his reputation or by failing to find a way to keep him on board).

In the end, the Steelers put themselves in a position to fail that year, and did so in a way that had nothing to do with cap space. The Steelers had all the tools needed to go into the playoffs that year with a bye and the number 1 seed. Instead, they underperformed and wound up starting street free agent Ben Tate and losing in the Wild Card round.

I don't agree that the Steelers were doomed to never win the Super Bowl because of Ben's contract, but that's not even really my argument. The 2014-18 Steelers didn't come close to being in a Super Bowl and only managed to make 1 AFCC game. Those teams should have accomplished more given what they had. It's not the case that they had limited potential due to cap problems but maximized and made the best of what they had. Rather, they squandered their potential and didn't accomplish as much as they could or should have (multiple AFCC games at least).

Ben Roethlisberger was 32 years old in 2014. Here is a full, comprehensive list of QB's 32 and older to start in a Super Bowl over the last 20 years:
- Tom Brady
- Peyton Manning
- Matt Stafford
- Kurt Warner

That's it. Brady and Manning are the only ones who did it on their original teams (and Manning lost). Stafford was traded to a team that mortgaged their entire future. Warner had the weirdest career imaginable.

Nitpick what I said all you like. The fact is that the standard you're holding the Steelers/Tomlin to has only been achieved by the 2 greatest QBs in NFL history.

I'm not suggesting that the couldn't have drafted better in the 2010s. What I'm saying is that the chance of drafting a bust is much higher when drafting late. Go look at New Orleans', Green Bay, New England, etc during this same time period. Plenty of busts to be had.


Ultimately my entire point is this: Stop looking at the Steelers in a vacuum. When you actually compare them with peers things aren't nearly as bad as too many on this board make it sound.

There's nothing magic about the age 32. Elway won two Super Bowls older than 32, both starting QBs in the 2002 Super Bowl were older than 32, and the Broncos carried the corpse of Peyton Manning to a Super Bowl in 2015. Ben was at the top of his game when he was 32.

If you want to say it's unreasonable to have expected another Steelers Super Bowl appearance in the 2010s because the Patriots and the Manning-era Broncos were just too dominant, then fine. I'd disagree with that (the Steelers almost beat the Broncos in 2015 despite being severely injury depleted), but it's better than the general argument that a 32 year old QB or QB with large contract can't be expected to make it to a Super Bowl.

The problem with your argument is that it ignores the particular reasons for why the Steelers failed. It also focuses only on the Super Bowl. Maybe the 2014 Steelers would have ultimately lost in the playoffs to the Brady and Belichick Patriots, but we'll never know because the Steelers lost to garbage teams, squandered seeding, and ended up losing in the Wildcard round at home to the Ravens while starting a street free agent at RB.

The Steelers by and large didn't even have a shot at challenging the Patriots dominance because they were too busy losing to the Ravens, the Jags, or collapsing, losing a string of games against bad teams, and missing the playoffs altogether. The fact that Ben was older than 32 and had a large contract had little to do with those losses.

It's not unreasonable to have expected more from the Steelers in 2014, 2017, and 2018, and the disappointment isn't derived from considering the Steelers in a vacuum. When viewed in the context of what actually happened and why the Steelers lost those years, your argument essentially is just an excuse. "We couldn't possibly have beaten Mike Glennon's 2-14 Bucs- Ben was 32 and sucking up too much cap!"

[W&M_Steeler]

You obviously lack a sound understanding of performance attribution.

Either that, or people really think that the Steelers are the only team that's lost to bad teams and/or drafted busts over the last 10 years.

That's not my argument at all. My argument is that the the Steelers underperformed relative to their talent during a window in which they were legitimate Super Bowl contenders and did so because they made things harder for themselves by things like losing trap games, cutting back-up RBs without a replacement plan, and generally having a coaching philosophy that was out of step with their strengths and weakness. I think it's a better argument than your deterministic arguments and fits better with what actually happened.

[Professor Half Wit]

I'm kinda excited for bully ball, though. We'll see!

You’ll probably get over that around week 3…

This depends on how many pancakes the Steelers deliver per loss. Five or more WWE style bullycakes on offense gets a pass on offense for a loss. Three is quota needed for wins.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Allllll you Ben haters can go take a flying fucking leap





Go fuck yourselves

























Eat shit and die




Dumbass haterz

[Jobu]

I'm kinda excited for bully ball, though. We'll see!

You’ll probably get over that around week 3…

This depends on how many pancakes the Steelers deliver per loss. Five or more WWE style bullycakes on offense gets a pass on offense for a loss. Three is quota needed for wins.

Got it.!

[Pabst]

There's nothing magic about the age 32. Elway won two Super Bowls older than 32, both starting QBs in the 2002 Super Bowl were older than 32, and the Broncos carried the corpse of Peyton Manning to a Super Bowl in 2015. Ben was at the top of his game when he was 32.

If you want to say it's unreasonable to have expected another Steelers Super Bowl appearance in the 2010s because the Patriots and the Manning-era Broncos were just too dominant, then fine. I'd disagree with that (the Steelers almost beat the Broncos in 2015 despite being severely injury depleted), but it's better than the general argument that a 32 year old QB or QB with large contract can't be expected to make it to a Super Bowl.

The problem with your argument is that it ignores the particular reasons for why the Steelers failed. It also focuses only on the Super Bowl. Maybe the 2014 Steelers would have ultimately lost in the playoffs to the Brady and Belichick Patriots, but we'll never know because the Steelers lost to garbage teams, squandered seeding, and ended up losing in the Wildcard round at home to the Ravens while starting a street free agent at RB.

The Steelers by and large didn't even have a shot at challenging the Patriots dominance because they were too busy losing to the Ravens, the Jags, or collapsing, losing a string of games against bad teams, and missing the playoffs altogether. The fact that Ben was older than 32 and had a large contract had little to do with those losses.

It's not unreasonable to have expected more from the Steelers in 2014, 2017, and 2018, and the disappointment isn't derived from considering the Steelers in a vacuum. When viewed in the context of what actually happened and why the Steelers lost those years, your argument essentially is just an excuse. "We couldn't possibly have beaten Mike Glennon's 2-14 Bucs- Ben was 32 and sucking up too much cap!"

You know what? Fuck it. I had a long response typed out, but it's fucking pointless. Yes. I concede. If it weren't for Tomlin single handedly losing to Tampa in 2014 the Steelers would have repeated the 70s dynasty and Ben would have exceeded Brady's super bowl count. Or maybe wasting our 3rd round comp pick in 2014 set the team back a generation. i don't know.

Your argument is so myopic that isn't not fucking worth replying to. I have better uses of my time.

Also, I swear to God this board will argue that the Steelers were talent-deficient and under-performed their talent in the same breath.

[Professor Half Wit]

You’ll probably get over that around week 3…

This depends on how many pancakes the Steelers deliver per loss. Five or more WWE style bullycakes on offense gets a pass on offense for a loss. Three is quota needed for wins.

Got it.!

[Jobu]

This depends on how many pancakes the Steelers deliver per loss. Five or more WWE style bullycakes on offense gets a pass on offense for a loss. Three is quota needed for wins.

Got it.!

Now you’re making me hungry. Pancakes and beer???

[tbsteel]

Both of you eat goat smegma for breakfast lunch and dinner

Tastes like chicken.

I'm ba-da-da-da-daaaaa lovin' it.

[W&M_Steeler]

You know what? Fuck it. I had a long response typed out, but it's fucking pointless. Yes. I concede. If it weren't for Tomlin single handedly losing to Tampa in 2014 the Steelers would have repeated the 70s dynasty and Ben would have exceeded Brady's super bowl count. Or maybe wasting our 3rd round comp pick in 2014 set the team back a generation. i don't know.

Your argument is so myopic that isn't not fucking worth replying to. I have better uses of my time.

No need to get pissy. We just disagree over whether the Steelers in fact had a window in the 2010s in which they were Super Bowl contenders. I think the Steelers had a team good enough to be a Super Bowl contender during the 2014-2018 period. I think the team underperformed during that period and were less successful than they should have been, only managing three playoff wins and one AFCC appearance. I think coaching was a significant contributor to that underperformance.

You think the Steelers did not have a Super Bowl window in the 2010s, because it's impossible for a team to be a Super Bowl contender if they have a QB on the second contract eating up too much cap (unless that QB's name is Tom Brady or maybe Peyton Manning). Therefore, there's no need to look at specifics. By definition, the Steelers could never have made the Super Bowl during that period, so any analysis or criticism of that period is essentially pointless. The Steelers had a winning record and made the playoffs most years, and that's better than most teams did, so we should be satisfied and not criticize anyone (except maybe Ben for being too greedy and taking up too much cap and not being Tom Brady).

You think my argument is myopic- after all Aaron Rodgers and Mike McCarthy / Drew Brees and Sean Payton didn't make it back to the Super Bowl in the 2010s (specific circumstances be damned, they had older expensive QBs, the only relevant consideration in determining whether a team is a contender), so therefore the Steelers didn't have a window in the 2010s and couldn't possibly have made the Super Bowl or even be expected to win a playoff game most years. I think your argument is overly simplistic and theoretical, doesn't engage with what actually happened, and is overall really flimsy (it requires us to ignore Brady and Manning because they're superhuman and infinitely better than Rodgers, Brees, or Roethlisberger, so much so that your iron rule of no Super Bowl wins after contract 2 doesn't apply to Brady and Manning... and maybe Mahomes, but his second contract didn't count last year). We'll agree to disagree

[COR-TEN]

Prepare thy buttholes, homers. Trigger alert warning....

....


Awwww, poor baby.

How many playoff games did Big Ben win without the #1 ranked defense in football? How many playoff games did he win where they scored via a defensive TD, special teams, or a trick play TD? Just look at their last SB run in 2010: the Steelers score 7 points in the first half against the Ravens, with a net offense of 0 points with Ben fumbling and Suggs taking it back for a TD, then to start the 3rd quarter the D forces THREE turnovers in the Ravens own territory: Ray Rice fumble at the BAL 23, the Ryan Clark pick taken back to the BAL 25, and then a Flacco fumble at the BAL 23. Tell me how many times that happened for Drew Brees again? Lol. And then we win the AFC Championship the next week when prime Big Ben goes 10 of 19 for 133 yards and 2 UGLY picks, including the one to Emmanuel Sanders that was just embarrassing, and we win because Rashard Mendenhall and Isaac Redman run for 150 yards, Willie Gay returns a fumble for a TD, and Ben makes like one play in the second half with a 3rd down conversion to AB to win it.

Now compare what he had on D with what contemporaries like Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers worked with for most of their careers.

No one is saying he wasn't great and all-time player... but he was very fortunate to be a Pittsburgh Steeler and play with those absolutely stacked teams for the first part of his career. And then when the D wasn't as special we ended up not being good enough to get over the hump. It happens.

Quit fucking bitch dude. I know you ran to bro-country and Jesus after your bathroom stall days but GD you're over 40. Dial down the prick vibes just a tad. You weren't good enough to win when it counted your last couple of years and I'm thankful you hung it up when you did because you were an embarrassment to the tough mf'er you used to be, as opposed to late stage Roethlisberger as the guy who crumbled like a wet paper bag at any hint of pressure and was afraid to take a hit anymore. You had a hell of a run and for a guy who never sniffed an All Pro team ended up with 3 SB appearances and 2 Lombardi's is pretty f'n good. Let it go.

I'm a bit late, but fuckin' A.

Spot on post. Cheers. And this :

That's not to say that Colbert and Tomlin aren't fucksticks, though.

Thanks jack. . .

[Pabst]

Apologies for getting snippy earlier, but still not reading a lengthy post.

Ben performed about equal to his peers, no more, no less

[Pabst]

Also dipped into the good bourbon this evening. Been delightful.

[smithessmokin]

The draft that set this team back was 2018.

R1- Terrell Edmunds
R2- James Washington
R3- Mason Rudolph
R3- Chuks Okorafor
R5- Will Allen
R5- Jaylen Samuels
R7- Josh Frazier

Outside of Edmunds and Okorafor, no one did much. Drafting a QB was such a slap in the face considering Ben went on to play for 5 more years. Rudolph was a total waste.

I was big believer in two LBs that year, and they would been Steelers if I would have been drafting...Harold Landry and Fred Warner. Loved Landry since his sophomore year at BC, and I though Warner showed a lot of promise athletically for a kid at BYU. The rest is history...

[K_C_]

The draft that set this team back was 2018.

R1- Terrell Edmunds
R2- James Washington
R3- Mason Rudolph
R3- Chuks Okorafor
R5- Will Allen
R5- Jaylen Samuels
R7- Josh Frazier

Outside of Edmunds and Okorafor, no one did much. Drafting a QB was such a slap in the face considering Ben went on to play for 5 more years. Rudolph was a total waste.

I was big believer in two LBs that year, and they would been Steelers if I would have been drafting...Harold Landry and Fred Warner. Loved Landry since his sophomore year at BC, and I though Warner showed a lot of promise athletically for a kid at BYU. The rest is history...

Ahem.

Rudolph was only drafted because Ben hinted at retirement more than once the prior year. The team needed to be prepared then he went on to treat Rudolph like shit after they drafted him.

[bradshaw2ben]

Settling the responsibility of the QBs in question off to the side for a moment…. How many elite QBs that were paired with a defensive-fixated coach and won a Super Bowl? Hell, that even came close to winning a Super Bowl.

I’ve come to the conclusion that guys like Mahomes are better than most other QBs but also could’ve been buried playing for Marty Schottenheimer or Tomlin or Ron Rivera.

Really, Tom Brady in NE is the guy who transcended a defensive obsessed/attrition ball coach, and who knows what shenanigans were going on there. Peyton won one with Dungy, Ben won one with Cowher & one with Tomlin, Eli won two with Coughlin (not sure if Coughlin or Eli fit this profile. This will be an interesting year for Rodgers, since he’s playing for a defense guy. Same with Josh Allen.

I think as long as Miami can keep an average QB rostered and available on Sundays, they will go the furthest of any team in that division, simply because their coach isn’t a Neanderthal.

[K_C_]

Settling the responsibility of the QBs in question off to the side for a moment…. How many elite QBs that were paired with a defensive-fixated coach and won a Super Bowl? Hell, that even came close to winning a Super Bowl.

I’ve come to the conclusion that guys like Mahomes are better than most other QBs but also could’ve been buried playing for Marty Schottenheimer or Tomlin or Ron Rivera.

Really, Tom Brady in NE is the guy who transcended a defensive obsessed/attrition ball coach, and who knows what shenanigans were going on there. Peyton won one with Dungy, Ben won one with Cowher & one with Tomlin, Eli won two with Coughlin (not sure if Coughlin or Eli fit this profile. This will be an interesting year for Rodgers, since he’s playing for a defense guy. Same with Josh Allen.

I think as long as Miami can keep an average QB rostered and available on Sundays, they will go the furthest of any team in that division, simply because their coach isn’t a Neanderthal.

My prediction is that Tua Tagovailoa will retire before this season is over. Not buying that learning some judo and trying to strengthen his neck are going to help Tua avoid the head injuries that will end his career much sooner than Dolphins fans hoped.

Behind Tua you have Mike White and Skylar Thompson. Enough said.

Where Miami REALLY fucked up was in tampering with Brady, losing their first round pick and not having the chance to draft a guy like Will Levis as insurance for when Tua goes down with his regularly scheduled head injuries.

[bradshaw2ben]

You’re probably right but I think they might even win with Mike White. Not sure he’s worse than Jared Goff, and paired with a smart offensive coach, has best chance to succeed.

[Havoc]

W&M bringing it in this thread

[K_C_]

You’re probably right but I think they might even win with Mike White. Not sure he’s worse than Jared Goff, and paired with a smart offensive coach, has best chance to succeed.

With no Tua, in a division with Josh Allen, Aaron Rodgers and Belichick (who added a lot to his offense this off season and let's also remember, Mac Jones did something as a rookie Tua still hasn't done going into year 4: Mac Jones started a playoff game).

Last year, after Tua got his bell rung for the second time, even with Waddle, Hill, Mike McDaniel and all that talent, Miami lost 8 of their last 9 to finish the season.

Finished with the same record as the Steelers, a team they BARELY beat in what I believe was Kenny's first NFL start. Tua and all that talent went scoreless in the second half against the Steelers. I wish this year's Kenny, or even late last year's Kenny was at QB in that Miami game last season.

I have the Dolphins finishing last in their division.