Post-WC Game Thoughts

[Legacy User]

MJG, now that it's all over, let me say this to you. I've had some in game issues with Hurdle's management style, but nobody can refute 98 wins. I've always said he's a fine man and a great motivator of men. In any case, I thought the purpose of this board was to share ideas and occasionally to vent. Unfortunately, there are some here who are more willing than others to tolerate differing viewpoints. I consider you to be a scholar AND A GENTLEMAN, most of the time anyway.

I've also said the main problem this team has is the owner, and I stand by that assessment. Unfortunately, Nutting isn't selling the team so far as I know anytime soon.

The more I think about the whole situation, the more I feel sorry for Hurdle. Hurdle, being the manager, being a team player, wanting to believe the best about others (including Nutting), can only work FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON on with the talent he's permitted to manage (or mismanage, just messing with you ).

Rizzo and Wainwright have been offered as examples of players who gave their teams hometown discounts. Good for them. I don't know these men so I can't speculate on their motives. But I did stay @ a Holiday Inn once or twice, so if for no other reason than to drive Pro crazy, here's something to consider -- maybe Rizzo and Wainwright stayed because they KNEW their organizations were all in and would continue paying the going rate to win. Maybe they liked their hometowns, and maybe they thought they had excellent chances to win by staying put vs. pursuing greener pastures. Maybe Cutch was led to believe as much, or maybe Cutch (like Hurdle) wanted to see the best in the FO?

[jeemie]

And damn the years of control thing (and that's where the money comes in).

Cubs did the years of control thing too...they kept Bryant and Addison Russell down in the minors.

Difference is...they kept them down for a few WEEKS, not a few months.

Because they figured- correctly, BTW- that paying them an extra year of arbitration via Super Two was well well worth getting them both up early in the season where they could help for almost ALL of it, AND still getting the extra year of control. Instead of waiting MONTHS and possibly getting behind the eight-ball with little time to recover because you've got lesser people manning those positions.

And all it will cost them is an extra year of arbitration for both of them...big deal. Yes- I know arbitration is where the numbers really explode, not FA, but you have to figure if the Pirates build something long term here, they can get a better TV contract at some point than that PoS deal they currently have with Root Sports.

Plus all the revenues from increased attendance.

Anyhow- the Cubs' method was a perfect balance of present and future.

[Legacy User]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

On #1, the Bucs win the division if they have a .500 record against NL Central foes. They dicked the dog against bottom dwellers like the Brewers and Reds.

On #2, I'm in the camp that says Arrieta was vulnerable and hittable last night. The Bucs simply did not take advantage. Marte hitting into the DP may have been more of a killer to this team than Cole giving up the two-run HR to that Kraut.

Also on #2, we have an ace too. It could argued that he was as good in the 1st half of the season as that bearded fuck was in the 2nd half. That fucking ace was not on like we needed him to be in that situation.

#3, I agree. Unfortunately next man up didn't provide the spark he does.

I'm too lazy to look this up, but does anybody know how likely it is to win 98 games and NOT win your division? I think the '85 Mets are in that category. Can't be too many others.

[SteelPro]

Straight up question -- If Cutch had asked for fair market value, would he have gotten it? You may speculate the answer is YES. Looking strictly at Nutting's behavior over time, I'd speculate the correct answer is NO. BTW, thank you Jeemie for correctly discerning my intent. It is nice to have someone give me the benefit of the doubt I'd like to think that I may have earned over time.

As for hypocrisy, it has been postulated that the Pirates choked last night. I can see both sides of this argument, because I'm willing to consider varying view points. Let's assume it is correct that they choked. Let's further assume the the FO, with which little can be found to fault, according to some, also can see that choking occurred last night, and in 2014, and in 2013. Next question -- Is it not this same FO that assembled these playoff chokers? Perhaps 2013 was an aberration. Perhaps 2014 was Bumgarner. Perhaps 2015 was Arrieta, bad luck, etc. But if the answer as some maintain lies in choking, just how can you expect chokers to win a world championship?

As for driving you crazy, sir, you flatter me. Here's what I find interesting -- but it doesn't drive me crazy. I'll concede the $10 million in salary addition was real $ vs. prorated money. , http://www.thebaseballcube.com/extras/payrolls/

Now, if we add $10 million to roughly $86 million (Pirate's # for 2015), that gets us to $96 million, raising the Pirates from #24 to #22 in payroll, without accounting for what other teams above or below them may have added or deleted. Forgive me for being somewhat less than overwhelmed by that expenditure.

The contract Cutch got was fair value at the time he signed it. How many players do you think are holding out for full value by not signing early in their careers?Last year you had Lester and you had Scherzer. That was basically it. And both ended up migrating from high payroll teams because those teams didn't think they could fit their lofty price tags. The year before that the same thing happened with Cano and Ellsbury. So why is it such a big deal that the Pirates wouldn't have paid full market if player such as Cutch would have delayed an extension to maximize his contract? The Pirates are behaving like every other team in this regard.

I'm just going to say that I think people look at payroll completely out of context. The other issue is that most sites publishing payroll data iare only giving opening day data when in reality the data that matters is the end of season total expenditure. You aren't seeing that on most of these sites. As an example this $66M payroll from baseball cube in 2013 is a bogus number. It doesn't show a large chunk of performance bonus money that was eventually earned. (much to do with structuring of Liriano's contract because of his broken arm). The Pirates have been among the biggest payroll adders after opening day in each of the last three years.

The Pirates had very small payrolls two years ago because they had significant numbers of early arb and pre arb players. This front office has been saying for years that they could afford to keep a core together and even supplement it if they win. They have done that. 5 years ago people were very skeptical of that. Hell, even two years ago people were very skeptical of that.

I'm getting the bad rap around here lately of being pro front office/pro ownership. That isn't really the case at all. I railed vehemently on the lack of spending on this message and my blog in the offseason following the 2013 season. Quite simply I had expectations of certain spending that wasn't met. So I was critical. Very critical. I had trade deadline expectations last year. They weren't met. So I was again very critical. This past offseason I again had expectations. They were met. My trade deadline expectations were also met. So now I'm not critical...at least for now. I'm being quite fair and balanced in how I view payroll.

By the way, care to guess were the Pirates sit in revenues?

[SteelPro]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

On #1, the Bucs win the division if they have a .500 record against NL Central foes. They dicked the dog against bottom dwellers like the Brewers and Reds.

On #2, I'm in the camp that says Arrieta was vulnerable and hittable last night. The Bucs simply did not take advantage. Marte hitting into the DP may have been more of a killer to this team than Cole giving up the two-run HR to that Kraut.

Also on #2, we have an ace too. It could argued that he was as good in the 1st half of the season as that bearded fuck was in the 2nd half. That fucking ace was not on like we needed him to be in that situation.

#3, I agree. Unfortunately next man up didn't provide the spark he does.

I'm too lazy to look this up, but does anybody know how likely it is to win 98 games and NOT win your division? I think the '85 Mets are in that category. Can't be too many others.

Mentioned this in TWIBB last week. The Pirates are only the 9th team since the advent of divisional play in 1969 to win 98 or more games and not win their division.

[Legacy User]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

[jeemie]

Improvements should be made, but you have to acknowledge the role that shit luck played.

1. They would have won any other division in baseball, but ... the Cardinals. That's shit luck.
2. For the second year in a row the most dominant pitcher in baseball, by a mile, happens to come from the second wild card in the National League. That's shit luck.
3. Losing Jung Ho. Shit luck.

Nothing Hurdle or anybody else could have done about those three.

On #1, the Bucs win the division if they have a .500 record against NL Central foes. They dicked the dog against bottom dwellers like the Brewers and Reds.

On #2, I'm in the camp that says Arrieta was vulnerable and hittable last night. The Bucs simply did not take advantage. Marte hitting into the DP may have been more of a killer to this team than Cole giving up the two-run HR to that Kraut.

Also on #2, we have an ace too. It could argued that he was as good in the 1st half of the season as that bearded fuck was in the 2nd half. That fucking ace was not on like we needed him to be in that situation.

#3, I agree. Unfortunately next man up didn't provide the spark he does.

I'm too lazy to look this up, but does anybody know how likely it is to win 98 games and NOT win your division? I think the '85 Mets are in that category. Can't be too many others.

There were 9 teams that won at least 98 games and failed to win the division. Four of them were from before the wild card and so therefore never even made the playoffs. The Pirates are the only one that had to play the roulette game...and of course, they lost.

Three of them won 100 games- two of which played before wild cards and so therefore missed the playoffs- that team being the 103-win 1993 Giants, who missed out on postseason altogether by finishing one game behind 104-win Atlanta.

All the 28 teams that won 95 or more games in the 47 years of divisional play but didn't win the division- 14 from pre-wild card era and 14 from the wild-card era:

1993 Giants 103 Braves 104
2001 Athletics* 102 Mariners 116
1980 Orioles 100 Yankees 103
1978 Red Sox 99 Yankees 100
2002 Angels* 99 Athletics 103
1974 Reds 98 Dodgers 106
1985 Mets 98 Cardinals 101
2004 Red Sox* 98 Yankees 105
2015 Pirates* 98 Cardinals 100
1977 Orioles 97 Yankees 100
1977 Red Sox 97 Yankees 100
1985 Yankees 97 Blue Jays 99
1999 Mets* 97 Braves 103
2015 Cubs* 97 Cardinals 100
1977 Pirates 96 Phillies 101
1987 Blue Jays 96 Tigers 98
1997 Yankees* 96 Orioles 98
1999 Reds 96 Astros 97
1973 Dodgers 95 Reds 99
1979 Brewers 95 Orioles 102
1979 Expos 95 Pirates 98
2002 Giants* 95 Dbacks 98
2003 Red Sox* 95 Yankees 101
2005 Red Sox* 95 Yankees 95
2006 Tigers* 95 Twins 96
2008 Red Sox* 95 Rays 97
2009 Red Sox* 95 Yankees 103
2010 Yankees* 95 Rays 96

[jeemie]

Mentioned this in TWIBB last week. The Pirates are only the 9th team since the advent of divisional play in 1969 to win 98 or more games and not win their division.

I must have missed one- I counted 8.

Messed up the '85 Mets- mistakenly put them down for 95 wins- they had 98.

[Legacy User]

Bling, appreciate the nod, brother.

We're on the same page. The issue here is The Nut.

But I do see Pro's point, somewhat.

Cowher's players, more than he, failed in the post-season. We all love our Greg Lloyd, but he did dick all when the big lights were on.

Same with Jimmy Leyland's players in the early 90's.

A few of Clint's players have come up in the post-season--the much-maligned Pedro for one, another the should have re-signed Marlon Byrd, for another. But for the most part, his players came up small in the biggest games---which are after the 162nd game is ticked.

That said, I do feel a lot of players this season, as well as the past 2, came up big in big situations during the regular season. Baseball is long and you can't say that about a lot of teams their players.

I love this team, man. They are mine. And always will be, my guys.

Win or lose.

I want to see us go further. We MUST go further. Or we'll become like the Pens and Steelers have become. Fans still love those teams, but what I see is kind of a resignation that they might only go so far and never further. Love watching them play, but that's it. I want the Buccos to transcend that. Does The Nut have it in him? I'm doubtful (and no, it's NOT just about money, but at certain points it IS about money, and that's that).

I have an eye to 2016. Dammit. This season. We did so much, and it's all over. It's not just fucking hard to swallow, it's fucking difficult to even fathom. We'll be back. Mark my words. This manager and the core of players will see to that.

[Legacy User]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

Bling, man, you're a quality poster. I know you and I have had some spats here brought on by me saying your math was horseshit and the like. If I may make a suggestion, you take things written here way, way too personally. You can't expect us to consider your feelings in every post. Shit I can't even meet my wife's expectations on that front!

Maybe some stuff went down in the game thread (which I don't plan to read) but from what I've seen Pro say here, that's normal discourse on Fury. Dare I say tame in comparison to a lot of other discourse on this esteemed website.

[Legacy User]

Y-Town, I just want to say, you are a quality poster and a great fucking fan.

When all is said and done, we're all bound, in some way, by our fandom and our passion for the team that makes us want to spend money, scream our lungs out, and come back day after day, win or lose, to cheer them on and show our support.

A good man, brother. Glad to know you via this board. Keep the faith, brother. This team--this manager and this group of men, however configured next season, will play with heart as we've done ever since Skip Hurdle came here. Let's GO!

[Legacy User]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

Bling, man, you're a quality poster. I know you and I have had some spats here brought on by me saying your math was horseshit and the like. If I may make a suggestion, you take things written here way, way too personally. You can't expect us to consider your feelings in every post. Shit I can't even meet my wife's expectations on that front!

Maybe some stuff went down in the game thread (which I don't plan to read) but from what I've seen Pro say here, that's normal discourse on Fury. Dare I say tame in comparison to a lot of other discourse on this esteemed website.

Y-Town, this season is history. Whatever issues you and I may have had are history, at least as far as I'm concerned. We root for the same team(s), so you and I are and hopefully will remain good to go, at least until one of us pisses off the other one.

As for your wife, hang on to her, she sounds like a keeper.

I respect Pro's knowledge. I respect his contributions. I believe he is a Pirate fan. I believe that Pro believes his own posts just as I believe what I post. I have my opinion about Nutting. Pro has his. Fair enough.

The other night MJG called him out for being snarky, so I know it's not just me.

That said, the hypocrite remark has been made in more than one thread. In this thread he's referred to being driven crazy more than once. A little less name calling and condescension would go a long way towards furthering good will, IMHO.

[SteelPro]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

I truly appreciate your suggestions. I don't have time to take them under consideration now but I will place them in my circular file and address them in the manner they deserve. In the mean time I will continue to call it like I see it. Unfortunate that it is that we don't see things the same way, I'll pray for you that your vision improves and that you may now comprehend what "belittling" truly looks like.

A 98 team was beaten by a pitcher that makes half what our 5th starter makes and a minimum salary rookie OF... yet money is the issue some are choosing to focus on today. That just seems pretty warped to me.

[Legacy User]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

I truly appreciate your suggestions. I don't have time to take them under consideration now but I will place them in my circular file and address them in the manner they deserve. In the mean time I will continue to call it like I see it. Unfortunate that it is that we don't see things the same way, I'll pray for you that your vision improves and that you may now comprehend what "belittling" truly looks like.

A 98 team was beaten by a pitcher that makes half what our 5th starter makes and a minimum salary rookie... yet money is the issue some are choosing to focus on today. That just seems pretty warped to me.

FWIW, money has been an issue long before today. Money will continue to be an issue short of getting a new owner.
I do wish to thank you for your measured and thoughtful response.

[Legacy User]

The other night MJG called him out for being snarky, so I know it's not just me.

That said, the hypocrite remark has been made in more than one thread. In this thread he's referred to being driven crazy more than once. A little less name calling and condescension would go a long way towards furthering good will, IMHO.

It's an internet message board, man. Everyone is snarky!

I digress. My crystal ball tells me that things are unlikely to get better on the snarkiness front.

[Legacy User]

Y-Town, I just want to say, you are a quality poster and a great fucking fan.

When all is said and done, we're all bound, in some way, by our fandom and our passion for the team that makes us want to spend money, scream our lungs out, and come back day after day, win or lose, to cheer them on and show our support.

A good man, brother. Glad to know you via this board. Keep the faith, brother. This team--this manager and this group of men, however configured next season, will play with heart as we've done ever since Skip Hurdle came here. Let's GO!

Thanks, Mean Joe. All that right back at you, bro.

[Legacy User]

The other night MJG called him out for being snarky, so I know it's not just me.

That said, the hypocrite remark has been made in more than one thread. In this thread he's referred to being driven crazy more than once. A little less name calling and condescension would go a long way towards furthering good will, IMHO.

It's an internet message board, man. Everyone is snarky!

I digress. My crystal ball tells me that things are unlikely to get better on the snarkiness front.

Actually, I will apologize for suggesting that Pro apply for NH's job. I went to far with that suggestion.
As for the other two suggestions, they remain in tact. What I will say to you, Y-Town, is this:

1. Keep that crystal ball. I think you're getting a fairly accurate message from it.

2. True, it is a message board. People have a choice as to (a) deciding if they want to post, and/or (b) what they choose to post. That freedom and the responsibility that accompanies those decisions applies to us all.

3. What you, Pro, I, or anyone else considers acceptable probably differs from not only person to person, but day to day depending on our mood, etc.

4. I'm done going back and forth with Pro in this thread. He can have the last word.

[Legacy User]

I love seeing the civility in disagreement i've seen here. Should happen more often on message boards and the internet would be a much more pleasant place if that were so.

[Suwanee88]

They could have offered Bonds all of Western Pennsylvania, and he wouldn't have stayed. He was going to San Francisco regardless of anything.

This in my opinion is the number 1 reason there should be a cap in MLB. Taking away some of the control and decision making power the players and the large market teams possess. This evens the playing field a bit and gives teams like the Pirates a chance to keep a guy like Bonds.

[Suwanee88]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

Agree.

I think Pro and Nut would be a good team.

[Suwanee88]

The other night MJG called him out for being snarky, so I know it's not just me.

That said, the hypocrite remark has been made in more than one thread. In this thread he's referred to being driven crazy more than once. A little less name calling and condescension would go a long way towards furthering good will, IMHO.

It's an internet message board, man. Everyone is snarky!

I digress. My crystal ball tells me that things are unlikely to get better on the snarkiness front.

Big difference between being Snarky and pompous/arrogant.

[SteelPro]

The other night MJG called him out for being snarky, so I know it's not just me.

That said, the hypocrite remark has been made in more than one thread. In this thread he's referred to being driven crazy more than once. A little less name calling and condescension would go a long way towards furthering good will, IMHO.

It's an internet message board, man. Everyone is snarky!

I digress. My crystal ball tells me that things are unlikely to get better on the snarkiness front.

Actually, I will apologize for suggesting that Pro apply for NH's job. I went to far with that suggestion.
As for the other two suggestions, they remain in tact. What I will say to you, Y-Town, is this:

1. Keep that crystal ball. I think you're getting a fairly accurate message from it.

2. True, it is a message board. People have a choice as to (a) deciding if they want to post, and/or (b) what they choose to post. That freedom and the responsibility that accompanies those decisions applies to us all.

3. What you, Pro, I, or anyone else considers acceptable probably differs from not only person to person, but day to day depending on our mood, etc.

4. I'm done going back and forth with Pro in this thread. He can have the last word.

I'm sorry I referred to you as a hypocrite. That was the wrong term. More like ignorance. And before you get upset by that let me clarify. I have no problem with anyone having an opinion that the owner is either cheap or that payroll needs to be increased. My issue is half truths and misinformation that is often used to support those opinions. When someone tries to spin that the Pirates are in some way fortunate that Andrew McCutchen gave the team a below market value team friendly deal that shows a lack of knowledge of the business landscape of how all teams and many players (at least the non Boras clients) operate in this era. Andrew McCutchen got a very good pre-arb deal for himself which he has since outplayed. That is no different than Anthony Rizzo, or Mike Trout, or Troy Tulowitzki, Paul Goldschmidt, or Buster Posey, or Madison Bumgarner, or Chris Sale, or a dozen other players. This is the reason very few premium players actually reach free agency these days. Teams want to sign players to long terms early on in their careers to keeps costs from spiraling and players want financial security because the thought of blowing out a knee or an elbow while they are on a minimum salary contract is very scary. Andrew McCutchen got a good deal at the time and Pirates are in no way unique or lucky to have a star player locked up to a deal that he has outplayed. I'm not sure why you feel belittled because I vented my annoyance that some people want to focus on payroll being an issue after a Wild Card game loss. I didn't call you dumb, didn't say your opinion was wrong, I wasn't even referring to you specifically. I just said that I was annoyed that is where people wanted to go immediately after a playoff loss.

[Legacy User]

Pro, here are three very well intended suggestions for you to consider.

1. Stop calling me (or anyone else) a hypocrite. People are entitled to post what they like. You don't have to insult other posters to make your point, whatever it may be. Simply disagree with whatever you believe your facts prove to be the case and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

2. Stop belittling me (or anyone else) by saying you're being driven crazy. No one is forcing you (or me, or anyone else) to share our time here.

3. Get your resume current. NH may be on his way to Atlanta. Just tell Nutting you'll work for 20% less than NH until you prove yourself and I'm sure the job is your's for the taking.

I truly appreciate your suggestions. I don't have time to take them under consideration now but I will place them in my circular file and address them in the manner they deserve. In the mean time I will continue to call it like I see it. Unfortunate that it is that we don't see things the same way, I'll pray for you that your vision improves and that you may now comprehend what "belittling" truly looks like.

A 98 team was beaten by a pitcher that makes half what our 5th starter makes and a minimum salary rookie... yet money is the issue some are choosing to focus on today. That just seems pretty warped to me.

FWIW, money has been an issue long before today. Money will continue to be an issue short of getting a new owner.
I do wish to thank you for your measured and thoughtful response.

as they say...when they say its not about the money...its about the money!!!

[jeemie]

I'm sorry I referred to you as a hypocrite. That was the wrong term. More like ignorance. And before you get upset by that let me clarify. I have no problem with anyone having an opinion that the owner is either cheap or that payroll needs to be increased. My issue is half truths and misinformation that is often used to support those opinions. When someone tries to spin that the Pirates are in some way fortunate that Andrew McCutchen gave the team a below market value team friendly deal that shows a lack of knowledge of the business landscape of how all teams and many players (at least the non Boras clients) operate in this era. Andrew McCutchen got a very good pre-arb deal for himself which he has since outplayed. That is no different than Anthony Rizzo, or Mike Trout, or Troy Tulowitzki, Paul Goldschmidt, or Buster Posey, or Madison Bumgarner, or Chris Sale, or a dozen other players. This is the reason very few premium players actually reach free agency these days. Teams want to sign players to long terms early on in their careers to keeps costs from spiraling and players want financial security because the thought of blowing out a knee or an elbow while they are on a minimum salary contract is very scary. Andrew McCutchen got a good deal at the time and Pirates are in no way unique or lucky to have a star player locked up to a deal that he has outplayed. I'm not sure why you feel belittled because I vented my annoyance that some people want to focus on payroll being an issue after a Wild Card game loss. I didn't call you dumb, didn't say your opinion was wrong, I wasn't even referring to you specifically. I just said that I was annoyed that is where people wanted to go immediately after a playoff loss.

Money's going to be important in 2016.

Pending free agents: Aramis Ramirez (retiring), A.J. Burnett (retiring), Joakim Soria, J.A. Happ, Antonio Bastardo, Corey Hart, Sean Rodriguez, Joe Blanton

2016 payroll obligations: The Pirates have $50.6 million committed for next season according to Cot's Baseball Contracts, though they do have several significant arbitration cases, including Walker, Cervelli, Alvarez, Melancon, Watson, Locke and Jared Hughes. That $50.6 million is really more like $90 million after arbitration raises.

[Legacy User]

I would try to talk ARam out of it unless they have other plans for 1B.

[Obviously]

They could have offered Bonds all of Western Pennsylvania, and he wouldn't have stayed. He was going to San Francisco regardless of anything.

This in my opinion is the number 1 reason there should be a cap in MLB. Taking away some of the control and decision making power the players and the large market teams possess. This evens the playing field a bit and gives teams like the Pirates a chance to keep a guy like Bonds.

It was like how Keenan Lewis wanted to go back to New Orleans and did. Bonds wanted to go home to SF and had had it with Pittsburgh. Has nothing to do with the entire big market thing which you obsess about. And just how many World Series did the Giants win with Bonds?

[Obviously]

I'm sorry I referred to you as a hypocrite. That was the wrong term. More like ignorance. And before you get upset by that let me clarify. I have no problem with anyone having an opinion that the owner is either cheap or that payroll needs to be increased. My issue is half truths and misinformation that is often used to support those opinions. When someone tries to spin that the Pirates are in some way fortunate that Andrew McCutchen gave the team a below market value team friendly deal that shows a lack of knowledge of the business landscape of how all teams and many players (at least the non Boras clients) operate in this era. Andrew McCutchen got a very good pre-arb deal for himself which he has since outplayed. That is no different than Anthony Rizzo, or Mike Trout, or Troy Tulowitzki, Paul Goldschmidt, or Buster Posey, or Madison Bumgarner, or Chris Sale, or a dozen other players. This is the reason very few premium players actually reach free agency these days. Teams want to sign players to long terms early on in their careers to keeps costs from spiraling and players want financial security because the thought of blowing out a knee or an elbow while they are on a minimum salary contract is very scary. Andrew McCutchen got a good deal at the time and Pirates are in no way unique or lucky to have a star player locked up to a deal that he has outplayed. I'm not sure why you feel belittled because I vented my annoyance that some people want to focus on payroll being an issue after a Wild Card game loss. I didn't call you dumb, didn't say your opinion was wrong, I wasn't even referring to you specifically. I just said that I was annoyed that is where people wanted to go immediately after a playoff loss.

Money's going to be important in 2016.

Pending free agents: Aramis Ramirez (retiring), A.J. Burnett (retiring), Joakim Soria, J.A. Happ, Antonio Bastardo, Corey Hart, Sean Rodriguez, Joe Blanton

2016 payroll obligations: The Pirates have $50.6 million committed for next season according to Cot's Baseball Contracts, though they do have several significant arbitration cases, including Walker, Cervelli, Alvarez, Melancon, Watson, Locke and Jared Hughes. That $50.6 million is really more like $90 million after arbitration raises.

To me Happ is the priority out of that bunch.

[Legacy User]

Money's going to be important in 2016. Pending free agents: Aramis Ramirez (retiring), A.J. Burnett (retiring), Joakim Soria, J.A. Happ, Antonio Bastardo, Corey Hart, Sean Rodriguez, Joe Blanton.

2016 payroll obligations: The Pirates have $50.6 million committed for next season according to Cot's Baseball Contracts, though they do have several significant arbitration cases, including Walker, Cervelli, Alvarez, Melancon, Watson, Locke and Jared Hughes. That $50.6 million is really more like $90 million after arbitration raises.

Jeemie, here's my opinion, FWIW to you. Say good bye to ARAM, AJ, Hart, and Soria. Kang/J-Hay/Mercer/Walker make ARAM expendable even if he wanted to return, which he says he doesn't. AJ is adamant about going, and his arm falling off for 2 months along with his age make him expendable, to say nothing of whoever will be the latest Sea-Rage reclamation signing. Do I need to discuss Corey Hart? IMHO, Soria will get a better offer somewhere else because some teams may see him as a poor-man's closer.

That leaves for consideration in no particular order from your list the following: Happy, Bastard, Serpico, and Blanton.
I expect Bastard to get an offer because he's a veteran lefty who can complement/spell Watson.
I would expect Blanton to get a take it or leave it offer, which Blanton probably will leave.
Serpico offers versatility in the field but only at the right price. If he goes he goes.

I expect the team to make a run @ Happy to at least give the impression they tried to keep Happy happy. Happy presents a nice lefty option to replace Nibbles and to join Frankie as another lefty on the starting rotation. Happy would present the Cardinals some problems much like Frankie does. I'm not sure the Pirates would dare offer Happy a 1-year tender similar to what they offered Martin or Frankie last year because Happy might call their bluff and another draft pick is only worth so much. It would be nice if they knew in advance if he'd accept or decline it. They might even ask him to reject it officially and then sign a longer term deal to get the extra draft pick?

Cervelli, Melancon, Watson, and Huey will return. That leaves Alvarez, Walker, and Locke.
I like the idea of cutting teacher's pet (CMo), but I won't hold my breath waiting for that.
Locke will probably stay simply because he's a lefty who can eat innings until the latest YOC (Years of Control) pitcher arrives.

I don't know if Alvarez or Walker will return. For some reason I expect one to stay and one to go just to address your concerns about arbitration $.
If Walker & a minor league prospect were traded for a legitimate left-handed first baseman that would open the way to jettison Pedro as well.

[SteelPro]

Happ was an in season acquisition. As such he can not be bound to a 1 year qualifying offer that ties him to draft pick compensation such as Martin and Liriano were last season. I think the Pirates will make a run at signing him or a similarly valued starting pitcher. My expectation is Happ will get a 2 year deal in the low 20's possibly with a team option for another year and think it will be the Pirates that sign him. I think Pedro is gone. I think they keep Walker. Up until the Kang injury I thought Walker would be gone but with some uncertainty over when Kang comes back I think Walker has to come back. Melancon will be a litmus test for those that call the Bucs cheap. He is going to get close to $10M. That is a lot for a closer. Pirates have seemed to draw a line on closer valuations before. IMHO if the budget is healthy enough they should pay that price, and I completely agree that money should not be tight for the Bucs right now coming off a record attendance yet again. Locke will and should return. I don't really like him but he has been good in the first half. He can give up his spot to Glasnow at mid season. Glasnow should not start the year in Pittsburgh. It has nothing to do with years of control or his big league readiness. They need to keep Glasnow's innings under control early in the year. He won't be going over 150 innings this year. Can't waste those innings in April. And yes I know getting off to a better start is important. They need to find a way to do that without Glasnow. Sadly, I'm resigned to another year of electric Ground Suck. Maybe they'll surprise us on that. Hurdle did look as pissed off as I've ever seen him when he yanked Morton from his last start. I'm not sure about 1B. I'd love for them to bid on Kang's Korean team mate. If they go the stop gap route it either better be a high quality one or a very short duration. They can't play garbage at 1B until June and hold Josh Bell in AAA. After 3 weeks he needs to come up.

[jeemie]

I'm hoping Happ sees how Searage and Benedict resurrected his career in essentially one week and sticks with them...and us.

But I hope we don't cheap out on him expecting that.

The rest of what you say I see playing out, Pro. If Locke can be Good Locke until Glasnow arrives, I can deal with Ground Suck because it usually takes him several starts to start really sucking too.

But only if we get Happ.