Tomlin's ranking amongst head coaches...

[Gonzo]

Tomlin was completely involved in removing Arians

I'd say it's at least muddled. There have been some conflicting messages and reports.

I dont doubt that there were many involved in the decision. Owner, GM, HC and maybe even DC. I have not seen any reports staying Tomlin was not involve at all and told to do it. I have seen those statements here. We have seen statements that he was involved. I don't believe it could happen if he said absolutely NO.

But either way - he was involved or he is a potted plant not only as strategist.

He has 8 years on tape now - and to me the way he wants to play football is almost completely apparent.

[Legacy User]

He has 8 years on tape now - and to me the way he wants to play football is almost completely apparent.

Really, what way is that? Not being a smartass...I honestly don't know what Tomlin visions for the Steelers is. His teams as of late have been characterized by sloppy, undisciplined, ease your way into the season play. That surely can't be what he wants.

[Gonzo]

He has 8 years on tape now - and to me the way he wants to play football is almost completely apparent.

Really, what way is that? Not being a smartass...I honestly don't know what Tomlin visions for the Steelers is. His teams as of late have been characterized by sloppy, undisciplined, ease your way into the season play. That surely can't be what he wants.

Sloppy etc ... Isn't a design but a result of his style IMO.

It is my opinion only that Mike Tomlin wishes to play a very conservative football game that: limits possessions and TOs; controls pace; and places D at the forefront. That is simple enough and not bad in and of itself - it's is Marty/Billy ball with Tomlins twist of using more athletic players to combat modern football and with speed will come splash. I think it's failing right now a little bit because this choice isn't complimentary of the player they pay 120m$ to: and a lot because IMO he appears to completely discredit the very things that an attrition/cowherball team need to success - discipline, physical and mental toughness, and winning at the little things. It doesn't help that he either isn't particularly good at identifying young talent or his idea about athleticism mixed with smash-mouth is a very bad idea.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

Does only Pete Carroll's current stint as a head coach in the NFL count??? Shouldn't his first stint coaching in the NFL where he "sucked balls" be taken into consideration also???

That is the question isnt it? I have turned around on this, prior to his most recent NFL gig,
I thought he sucked Diplodocus balls.


I thought he won at the college level because he coached at a school that could cherry pick talent while ignoring any NCAA regulations it wanted to, but hey, why argue with success?

But if you look back, he was coaching a horrific 1994 Jets team. That team sucked major league ass.
He was replacing a serious joke of a coach, Bruce Coslet, who went 6-10, 8-8, 4-12 and 8-8. The 3 years before
Coslet, Walton went 6-9, 8-7-1, 4-12 with one of the worst of the 84 QBs, Ken O'Brien.

Pete's QBs were Boomer, Glenn Foley and Jack Trudeau. Johnny Johnson, Brad Baxter and Adrian Murrell go the most carries that year. You had a few nice targets to thow to Art Monk, Rob Moore and Johnny Mitchell, when you werent getting killed by your line.

So, to think anyone could have done much better with that shit sandwich is stretching it.

Post-Carroll, there were 2 more years of torture with Rich Kotite coaching, 3-13, 1-15.

So by any measure, we can grant Pete a pass there.

Pete then coached in NE from 97-99. He inherited a Parcells SB losing team, and went 10-6, 9-7, 8-8.
That is 2 playoff years:
97 beat Miami, lost to Pittsburgh, (Kevin Henry fumble recovery game)
98 lost to Jacksonville

So he took a SB team team and did at least average with it. The year after Carroll left, Belicheat got only 5-11 out of that team.


I think there is unfairly attached stigma due to the Jets coaching stint. But he was one coach one year, in the middle of decades of excrement where the team occasionally treaded water in a sea of turds, and found dry land briefly (Parcells, Edwards) a few times before Ryan and they have regressed again.

IMHO, the Jets should be lumped in with the Browns and Bengals when it comes to incompetently run organizations.

This comes from someone who grew up in central Connecticut, and lived in southwest Connecticut post-college (1990-1997), so a majority of media coverage was/is of that shitty franchise.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

You mean like Cutting Joey Porter, Casey Hampton, James Farrior, Aaron Smith, Ryan Clark, Max Starks, Willie Parker, Hines Ward, James Harrison, and Lamar Woodley

You really think that was "shaking the team up"- cutting or releasing players ownership had no intention of re-signing anyway?

That's called natural attrition- every coach has to deal with it. There was nothing earth-shattering about any of those moves (I know people like to equate Porter being released to Cowher's cutting of...oh, I can't remember who that player was now, but it was supposed to signal a big "statement" that Cowher was now in charge. At any rate, people tried to say Porter being released was Tomlin's big "I am in control" statement, when in reality the Steelers were never going to give Porter a C$3).

You don't think cutting Joey Porter has his first action when he took a job shaking things up?

I dont think anyone in their right mind, who actually knew what was going on thought that was shaking things up. Porter was never going to get the $$ he wanted from the Steelers FO. Cowher had to beg him to come back the previous year. To bring up Porter as shaking things up is another specious argument on your part that has no factual bearing on the situation. Its what you do. Porter was breaking down way too often for the money he wanted. He was gone and that was known, and Harrison was waiting in the wings.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

You want Shaft on the sidelines, fine.

I defy most of the Tomlin haters to name a black HC they'd consider "Top 10". It slips out every now and then, in between sips of warm backwash in the bottom of the IC can. Maybe even mixed with a chew spit.

Wrong conclusion. Completely fucking wrong conclusion. That "Shaft" remark wasn't a form of racial belittlement, but if you cant see anything except in those terms, then I can see why you would think so. That is your problem and points to your own issues not mine.

It has to do with Tomlin looking cool on the sidelines, hence the Shaft reference. Because frankly he doesn't do shit otherwise except throw the occasional challenge flag. He can't manage a clock, he cant stop a play in time to lets us spike the ball and retain possession. He is too busy easing into games and letting his coordinators do everything else. When we are running into a fucking wall of 8 in the box 3 times in a row he doesnt call for anything different, he lets us do it again. He cannot adapt to the game depending on situation and flow. When the game plans last year are repeated disasters that fail until Ben is allowed to open up in the 2nd half, he doesnt change anything, we just make the same mistake next week.

I want a different type of coach on the sidelines. Someone who can do more.

But by all means, noone can disapprove of a black man in your racist world because obviously its about color, not talent.

[Legacy User]

To me Tomlins greatest problem is personnel. And at this point I attach Colbert to that as well. The first time I read Colbert say, "This gives us a chance to scout LBs we previously couldn't..." I knew who was wearing the pants...I do think Tomlin is one hell of a salesman. And in that I think Switzer is his best comparison...that's not quite as negative as many of you think, I liked Switzer at OU and I suspect Tomlins line of bullshit might work better at the college level.

Evolution bleeds up in football. I suspect so much of the recent success of Carroll, Harbaugh, and Kelly come from there recent exposure to the college passing game. In game planning and recruiting for and against those types of teams...theories are hatched and new concepts much more easily explored. It is really, really sad how much more time is devoted to football at the collegiate level as compared to the pro's under the new cba.

I really don't know what Tomlin wants to do on offense because the line and WRs are so god damned bad.

As to the racist remarks...I've already stated Shaw would be a top consideration despite the fact I don't regard Tomlin as a top 10 HC.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

As to the racist remarks...I've already stated Shaw would be a top consideration despite the fact I don't regard Tomlin as a top 10 HC.

I dont know enough about the college game to pull any valid names from those ranks.

That just leaves me with current coaches and recent history to evaluate.

Denny Green, not really but close. He was able to coach competently, most of the time. However his accomplishments in MN,
get denigrated by his actions in Phoenix. I place 10000% of the blame for the MNF loss to the Bears in his hands. Matt Leinhart (fuck me for saying this) was playing great. They were tearing the Bears a new one and then Green went conservative and gutless and pissed away the game.

Dungy. My initial answer is yes, top 10. However 2 things temper this. The outright stupidity of kicking directly to Devin Hester. Then you can see-saw on him and Manning. We all know there are good coaches, who have been utter crap when they have no franchise QB (see M. Shanahan). OTOH, he was able to manage Manning to shut up and hand off and negotiated the post-season to a SB trophy by checking Paid-A-Tons ego. So yeah, top 10.

Lovie Smith. I dunno. He had some success with the running game and a loaded D. I would say his success is very similar to Bill Cowher. But to be honest, I never thought Cowher was a top 10 coach. His players love him, but I have no in depth way of judging his performances and skills. Probably 11-20.

Herm Edwards. My initial answer would be no, but he knew how to handle his players, and had some success with a historically shitty franchise (Jets). But he didnt do too well in KC, winning one year with the team Vermeil built. I really see-saw on Edwards. I want to say not top 10, but 11-20, maybe 11-15.

Romeo Crennel. Great coordinator, HC not so much. 15-25 range. He hasnt had great situations though.

Caldwell. I dont know enough, obviously a good+ coordinator, but I cant speak to him as a HC.

Hue Jackson, still at Coordinator level, no idea.

Marvin Lewis. This is interesting. Knee-jerk reaction is no, but he has had success there, given all the preconditions for failure that exist in Cinncitucky. I would put him at 11-15. We denigrate him for the obvious reasons, but in retrospect, he isnt that bad and has been making some decent teams over there. With a better QB he would be doing serious damage in the post-season.

Mike Singletary. Fuck no. 25-32.

Raheem Morris. I dont know enough to place him.

Art Shell. Not worth discussing. Too many question marks and too much having to deal with an Al Davis run franchise.

[Legacy User]

That just leaves me with current coaches and recent history to evaluate.

I pretty much agree with your assessment...believe me, I'm the last guy to fling shit like racist or bigot...I've been called a bigot for using the word "sissy"

Didn't mean to imply anything...there is a real disconnect in assumptions and language between the typical poster who likely holds some sort of advanced education (pc brainwashing centers ) and the near 70% of America that does not. That's why I refer to the highly sensitive types as facebook nation...believe me, the people I encounter on a daily basis couldn't write authentically here...hell, neither could the coaching staff from the Falcons...Not a shot at Fury...far better then the pep rallies masked as opinion oriented sites. Really, my thinking is a snitch or two...maybe undercover female...multi screen names bitch bitch bitching.

[Steelafan77]

To me Tomlins greatest problem is personnel. And at this point I attach Colbert to that as well.

One could add in a below average at best OC and suspected meddlesome owner too?

IMO, Steelers issues start at the top. And as we all know shit runs down hill.

[lifelongsteel]

To be fair, some coach has to get some credit for the games we won right?

Even if you want to ordain Ben the greatest player who ever lived, the Tomlin sucks narrative, combined with the LeBeau sucks narrative, the Haley sucks narrative and the long ago forgotten Arians sucks narrative, can't be true right?

[Legacy User]

One could add in a below average at best OC and suspected meddlesome owner too?

IMO, Steelers issues start at the top. And as we all know shit runs down hill.

My opinion is Tomlin has made all the significant decisions...with Colberts blessing. If he hasn't what good is he? If he were to get canned or resign there would be a line to hire him. I really can't imagine a SB winning coach forced into anything...if Haley was forced upon him...he should have resigned. If anything I think Deuce has been pretty accommodating as of late...I'm guessing he paid significant jack for Munchak...and I think Brown would have been cheaper and just as good.

I've always been a supporter of DL and Wiz/BA...

[Steelafan77]

I presumed that's what you were saying, correct me if I am wrong. The Steelers issues start at the top of the organization. I agree.

[Kodiak]

To be fair, some coach has to get some credit for the games we won right?

A QB like Ben can certainly be the difference between 4 wins and 8 wins.

So to answer your question, no, no coach HAS to get credit for the games won (unless an otherwise sub-500 team sans Ben is you standard).

[Kodiak]

...if Haley was forced upon him...he should have resigned.

Sure, because walking away from $5M is so easy....The Haley decision was already after teams had filled HC vacancies.

[Steelafan77]

...if Haley was forced upon him...he should have resigned.

Sure, because walking away from $5M is so easy....The Haley decision was already after teams had filled HC vacancies.

I actually wanted Caldwell for OC. IIRC, Caldwell was still available too.

[lifelongsteel]

To be fair, some coach has to get some credit for the games we won right?

A QB like Ben can certainly be the difference between 4 wins and 8 wins.

So to answer your question, no, no coach HAS to get credit for the games won (unless an otherwise sub-500 team sans Ben is you standard).

That's one of the dumber things I've ever read here.

[Legacy User]

...if Haley was forced upon him...he should have resigned.

Sure, because walking away from $5M is so easy....The Haley decision was already after teams had filled HC vacancies.

He would have got top network money to do analysis until he the next vacancy opened up. They knew they were gassing BA at the end of the season...

[Legacy User]

For a minute envisioned Tomlin doing football color commentary. Jesus, that would be good tv.

[bradshaw2ben]

I don't know, Z... you get into trouble when you try and fill in the blanks for this secretive, politically-sensitive, nepotistic, closed-circuit of a franchise.

I can think of many reasons-- most of which I have stated elsewhere-- that Tomlin wouldn't have total control over personnel decisions (for one, the organization itself publicly says that's someone else's job), wouldn't leave if he was countermanded by the owner (loyal to a fault), isn't a potted plant-- just agreed to the job as not the exclusive #1 football guy in the building because that's how the Steelers do it. Also, his loyalty would be informed by the fact that the Rooneys gave him this opportunity.

I don't think the incredibly detail-oriented position coach who told the older-than-him All-Pro 50 ways he could be better and who's kept notebooks of practice and game notes since teenagedom suddenly forgot how to be detail oriented or hasn't learned anything or doesn't have anything to offer.

It's actually your speculation which is the part less supported by the history and facts.

One of my favorite expressions in my work world is: "Never listen to the words." Use your eyes and brain and you'll have a better chance to figure it out. All of Tomlin's public words are extreme subterfuge and hidden messages for players/coaches that you'll never decipher. They need to be ignored as irrelevant about 95% of the time.

[Kodiak]

That's one of the dumber things I've ever read here.

I don't see what is so dumb about the obvious (or so I thought) implication that giving credit for mediocre coaching performance is kind of an oxymoron. That's like handing out participation trophies.

Most people don't see back-to-back 8-8 seasons with a HOF QB as anything worthy of "credit due". As far as coaching, not singularly "above the line" performance, if you will.

[lifelongsteel]

That's one of the dumber things I've ever read here.

I don't see what is so dumb about the obvious (or so I thought) implication that giving credit for mediocre coaching performance is kind of an oxymoron. That's like handing out participation trophies.

Tomlin has won division titles, AFCCG's, and a super bowl. It seems obvious to me that he has to be given some credit for those achievements.

[Kodiak]

Tomlin has won division titles, AFCCG's, and a super bowl. It seems obvious to me that he has to be given some credit for those achievements.

What has he achieved the last two years? What are you giving him credit for there? 8-8 two years in a row in this NFL with a HOF QB is absolutely fucking pathetic.

[lifelongsteel]

Tomlin has won division titles, AFCCG's, and a super bowl. It seems obvious to me that he has to be given some credit for those achievements.

What has he achieved the last two years? What are you giving him credit for there? 8-8 two years in a row in this NFL with a HOF QB is absolutely fucking pathetic.

When judging someone i find it best to judge both the whole body of work "and" the trend. I also like to understand the context.
Clearly in the last two years you see a coach underperforming with a HOF QB. That's fair. I see a coach with a rebuilding team who's HOF QB, while still better than most in the league, made too many rookie level mistakes in both seasons to elevate his rebuilding team to the playoffs.

btw We weren't the first team in history to have a HOF QB and SB winning coach to miss the playoffs two years in a row. In fact a team with the same profile (Giants) missed the last two years as well.

[jeemie]

Tomlin has won division titles, AFCCG's, and a super bowl. It seems obvious to me that he has to be given some credit for those achievements.

What has he achieved the last two years? What are you giving him credit for there? 8-8 two years in a row in this NFL with a HOF QB is absolutely fucking pathetic.

When judging someone i find it best to judge both the whole body of work "and" the trend. I also like to understand the context.
Clearly in the last two years you see a coach underperforming with a HOF QB. That's fair. I see a coach with a rebuilding team who's HOF QB, while still better than most in the league, made too many rookie level mistakes in both seasons to elevate his rebuilding team to the playoffs.

btw We weren't the first team in history to have a HOF QB and SB winning coach to miss the playoffs two years in a row. In fact a team with the same profile (Giants) missed the last two years as well.

Eli Manning has been absolutely horrendous the last couple of years.

His HoF status is in serious doubt now- his two Super Bowl wins over the Pats notwithstanding.

[Kodiak]

Eli Manning has been absolutely horrendous the last couple of years.

His HoF status is in serious doubt now- his two Super Bowl wins over the Pats notwithstanding.

Eli has never really been a good QB. He played very well in two SB runs. I fear Tomlin is cut from the same cloth - stayed out of the way of a team he inherited and won a SB.

I do believe Tomlin's success is largely owed to Ben and Lebeau. Tomlin took over a ship on autopilot and he just had to hold on to the wheel...now we've hit some rough water and he has to steer and HOLY SHIT!!! he's not a captain.

[Legacy User]

Eli Manning has been absolutely horrendous the last couple of years.

His HoF status is in serious doubt now- his two Super Bowl wins over the Pats notwithstanding.

Eli has never really been a good QB. He played very well in two SB runs. I fear Tomlin is cut from the same cloth - stayed out of the way of a team he inherited and won a SB.

I do believe Tomlin's success is largely owed to Ben and Lebeau. Tomlin took over a ship on autopilot and he just had to hold on to the wheel...now we've hit some rough water and he has to steer and HOLY SHIT!!! he's not a captain.

I thought Tomlin took over an underachieving 8-8 team?

[Legacy User]

I don't know, Z... you get into trouble when you try and fill in the blanks for this secretive, politically-sensitive, nepotistic, closed-circuit of a franchise.

No doubt Colbert has some blame coming his way.

I can think of many reasons-- most of which I have stated elsewhere-- that Tomlin wouldn't have total control over personnel decisions (for one, the organization itself publicly says that's someone else's job), wouldn't leave if he was countermanded by the owner (loyal to a fault), isn't a potted plant-- just agreed to the job as not the exclusive #1 football guy in the building because that's how the Steelers do it. Also, his loyalty would be informed by the fact that the Rooneys gave him this opportunity.

It's not my contention that Tomlin has total control. But in the team video the draft valuations are brought to Tomlin, Tomlin makes changes, then KC and Tomlin discuss it...according to Colbert. And that very much accounts for the difference in the type of positional players we have drafted as compared to Cowher/Colbert. My thinking is the only time this franchise goes extensively to FAs...it realizes it's in big trouble.

I don't think the incredibly detail-oriented position coach who told the older-than-him All-Pro 50 ways he could be better and who's kept notebooks of practice and game notes since teenagedom suddenly forgot how to be detail oriented or hasn't learned anything or doesn't have anything to offer.

I don't doubt DL has been indulgent to a fault with Tomlin. But I saw no scheme changes that moved the 11 ranked SB hangover D back to the top 5 status of 2 of the 3 previous years. In any case, I'm one of those who argue the scheme is fine, it's 90% the players. Even the 10% is mostly a matter of package defense personnel and how often they continue to utilize 6 dbs vs 3 wr, medium distance, sets despite being healthy. More in favor of slightly more press on the early downs...or at least 3 deep press bail. In any case, Tomlin coordinated one defense in Minnesota, and it was mediocre...much like this defense has become as it more reflects the Tomlin/Colbert personnel vision

It's actually your speculation which is the part less supported by the history and facts.

I don't see any speculation. Tomlin made no commitment to any coordinators just after the season stating that the year had to be reviewed and players and coordinators often move on in the NFL. Tomlin told the press BA said he was retiring. BA signed with Indy a week later and denied that ever happened. Tomlin is a liar.

One of my favorite expressions in my work world is: "Never listen to the words." Use your eyes and brain and you'll have a better chance to figure it out. All of Tomlin's public words are extreme subterfuge and hidden messages for players/coaches that you'll never decipher. They need to be ignored as irrelevant about 95% of the time.

and you accuse me of speculation...

[Kodiak]

I thought Tomlin took over an underachieving 8-8 team?

More like he took over a SB winning team that had its QB go thru a windshield and lose an appendix in Wk1. That team, by the way, finished 6-2.

[Gonzo]

I don't know, Z... you get into trouble when you try and fill in the blanks for this secretive, politically-sensitive, nepotistic, closed-circuit of a franchise.

I can think of many reasons-- most of which I have stated elsewhere-- that Tomlin wouldn't have total control over personnel decisions (for one, the organization itself publicly says that's someone else's job), wouldn't leave if he was countermanded by the owner (loyal to a fault), isn't a potted plant-- just agreed to the job as not the exclusive #1 football guy in the building because that's how the Steelers do it. Also, his loyalty would be informed by the fact that the Rooneys gave him this opportunity.

I don't think the incredibly detail-oriented position coach who told the older-than-him All-Pro 50 ways he could be better and who's kept notebooks of practice and game notes since teenagedom suddenly forgot how to be detail oriented or hasn't learned anything or doesn't have anything to offer.

It's actually your speculation which is the part less supported by the history and facts.

One of my favorite expressions in my work world is: "Never listen to the words." Use your eyes and brain and you'll have a better chance to figure it out. All of Tomlin's public words are extreme subterfuge and hidden messages for players/coaches that you'll never decipher. They need to be ignored as irrelevant about 95% of the time.

B2B - you,just filled in all the blanks.

I have eyes as well and didn't see anything like what you described above then or now.

One of my favorite expressions is - always trust your first impression. It's equally meaningless and equally valid.