Latrobe Training Camp 2022 Thread

[stillthere]

https://youtube.com/shorts/oIqkpsCIQsI?feature=share

[anpsteel]

Again, if that was the case there wouldn't be so many HORRIBLE misses drafting QBs.

You simply can't tell, based on college film, if a guy can fit that ball into an NFL window consistently. If you could, guys like Mason Rudolph would never get an R1 grade...

I think what you are trying to identify, is accuracy, not arm strength.

Well, accuracy and anticipation; which is a function of mental processing.


If you can throw a 15 yard out, with enough velocity that the ball doesn't hang in the air for a year- that's the mendoza line, and fairly easy to identify.

The criteria that are much more difficult to identify, are:

- Speed of processing information. In college the QB typically will have 1 or 2 reads, and 3+ seconds to make those reads. In the NFL, the QB has to make multiple reads, every pass play. To be successful he needs to make those reads in about 1 second each.

- Decision making. Sounds obvious, but it isn't. They have to take the information they are seeing, and make the correct decisions, based upon properly identifying what they are seeing.

- Anticipation and Accuracy. In college, most of the QBs are seeing a player open, vs, throwing the player open. In the NFL, unless you are Ben, you aren't going to get away with that for very long. Then they have to be able to put the ball in the window, as you mention, with that anticipation.

and lastly,
Confidence and Leadership. The player has to have the self confidence they can do all the above, and excel at it; and as part of that, get the team to believe in him as well.

Those are all of the things, that you can't readily identify from college film or workouts, but are all absolutely critical to being a successful QB at the NFL level.

Exactly.

I think it is not all that hard at all to watch two guys throwing a football and be able to determine who has the better arm.

You mentioned Leaf and Jamarcus Russell. Guys drafted so high because of those easily identifiable arms.

They couldn’t do the other stuff.

I dont think the trouble is identifying arm strength it is finding the arms that are attached to the right brains & heart.

Stand in the range at a PGA tour event. You can tell right away who has the higher Val speed.

I don’t think scouts are dumbfounded when looking at arm strength. They can see who has it and who doesn’t.

It’s the guys on the fringe and whether or not they have enough of the other things to make the arm they have work at this level.

I agree

Mason Rudolph has aprx Joe Montana arm strength.

Montana excelled at all of the mental components and accuracy. Because he was so good at those things, he was very confident; combined with success, he was a great leader on the field.

[anpsteel]

Again, if that was the case there wouldn't be so many HORRIBLE misses drafting QBs.

You simply can't tell, based on college film, if a guy can fit that ball into an NFL window consistently. If you could, guys like Mason Rudolph would never get an R1 grade...

I think what you are trying to identify, is accuracy, not arm strength.

Well, accuracy and anticipation; which is a function of mental processing.


If you can throw a 15 yard out, with enough velocity that the ball doesn't hang in the air for a year- that's the mendoza line, and fairly easy to identify.

The criteria that are much more difficult to identify, are:

- Speed of processing information. In college the QB typically will have 1 or 2 reads, and 3+ seconds to make those reads. In the NFL, the QB has to make multiple reads, every pass play. To be successful he needs to make those reads in about 1 second each.

- Decision making. Sounds obvious, but it isn't. They have to take the information they are seeing, and make the correct decisions, based upon properly identifying what they are seeing.

- Anticipation and Accuracy. In college, most of the QBs are seeing a player open, vs, throwing the player open. In the NFL, unless you are Ben, you aren't going to get away with that for very long. Then they have to be able to put the ball in the window, as you mention, with that anticipation.

and lastly,
Confidence and Leadership. The player has to have the self confidence they can do all the above, and excel at it; and as part of that, get the team to believe in him as well.

Those are all of the things, that you can't readily identify from college film or workouts, but are all absolutely critical to being a successful QB at the NFL level.

May I add one more?

Footwork in the pocket. This isn't a deal breaker (looking at you, Mahomes) and it can be taught, but just about all top-level NFL QBs are able to step into throws/avoid pressure within the pocket. Brady is a master at it.

Footwork is typically directly connected to accuracy.

Mahomes is a outlier. He has a cannon for an arm, and is very accurate. His arm strength and mobility really allow him to do things most other QBs cant.

[anpsteel]

I think what you are trying to identify, is accuracy, not arm strength.

Well, accuracy and anticipation; which is a function of mental processing.

No, it's both.

What I'm saying is a "college arm" throws into much, much bigger windows that are open longer. It's like a 45-mph toss into an 8-foot bay window, vs a 50mph dart into a 2-foot car window. It's not about having a cannon, it's about having a minimum velocity while putting the ball on that small target consistently. You can't tell that from college film because the college game doesn't demand an NFL arm to be great.

In college, you make 2 of those throws a game. In the NFL it's 20. What Arians means by being a passer is putting that ball in that 2-foot window on time. And you simply can't identify it until you see the guy making those throws against NFL corners, because in college 95% of the guys he throws against can't play in the NFL. And in the combine and workouts there are no defenders.

In college, it's pitch-and-catch with guys WTFO. In the NFL, you have to throw the guy open. That means putting the ball into an invisible bucket on time. Most guys can't do that, and you can't tell if they can from college film. Like in baseball a lot of guys can throw 90mph, but they don't have MLB command of location. Yet they were stars in highschool and college.

I specifically mentioned what you are saying

Throwing a player open, in my opinion, is much more a reflection of the mental components than arm strength.

It's processing the info, in about a second.
It's making the correct decision
and, of course
It's having the accuracy combined with the anticipation, to deliver the ball to the spot

Joe Montana is the perfect example of a QB, that had mid tier arm strength, but excelled at all of the mental components and accuracy.

[Kodiak.]

I specifically mentioned what you are saying

Throwing a player open, in my opinion, is much more a reflection of the mental components than arm strength.

It's processing the info, in about a second.
It's making the correct decision
and, of course
It's having the accuracy combined with the anticipation, to deliver the ball to the spot

Joe Montana is the perfect example of a QB, that had mid tier arm strength, but excelled at all of the mental components and accuracy.

You're still not understanding. It's both. It's NFL accuracy combined with NFL velocity. You don't need to have a cannon and I never said you do.
But you have to have that magic combination of accuracy + velocity. No amount of brains can compensate for lacking that. Throwing to a spot and throwing on time doesn't matter if you can't do it accurately with velocity.

Old noodle-armed Manning is an outlier (and partly because defenses refused to adjust despite it being obvious he couldn't throw the ball over 20 yards). Rudolph has a strong enough arm. And he can be accurate. But he cannot consistently be accurate throwing with NFL velocity. It's like a baseball pitcher trying to rear back and put a few extra mph on his fastball but can't find the plate.

[steelclan]

Rudolph has a strong arm? Well, that is news.

What Rudolph does have? Is knowing the playbook and facing no pass rush in glorified warm ups.

If he can move the ball in pre season against a pass rush then maybe he can be in conversation to start.

Given his past the likelihood that will happen? Isn't great.

[Mick]

Rudolph has a strong arm? Well, that is news.

What Rudolph does have? Is knowing the playbook and facing no pass rush in glorified warm ups.

If he can move the ball in pre season against a pass rush then maybe he can be in conversation to start.

Given his past the likelihood that will happen? Isn't great.

from the clips, our offense is getting killed by pass rush in these glorified warmups. I’d kind of say the opposite; Rudolph’s strength is knowing not to bother looking through the normal progression and going straight to the hot read or checkdown.

[steelclan]

Rudolph has a strong arm? Well, that is news.

What Rudolph does have? Is knowing the playbook and facing no pass rush in glorified warm ups.

If he can move the ball in pre season against a pass rush then maybe he can be in conversation to start.

Given his past the likelihood that will happen? Isn't great.

from the clips, our offense is getting killed by pass rush in these glorified warmups. I’d kind of say the opposite; Rudolph’s strength is knowing not to bother looking through the normal progression and going straight to the hot read or checkdown.

Clips against whom? Is he facing the 1st team defense?

The need to pass judgment on fragments of information in a sterilized environment is premature.

I have seen Rudolph in NFL games face pressure and it has been ugly, repeatedly. I don't care that he commands the offense in shells, I care what he does when he faces a collapsing pocket on 3rd and 5 and no a hurried "oh shit" dump off is not the answer.

[tbsteel]

We're literally in the 5th year of "Well, I don't know, maybe Mason could end up being good..."

He's trash. You know that stuff that comes out of your butt and goes *plop* into the toilet? He's like that. He makes Tua look like a young Favre. His footwork is some of the worst you'll ever see. Homers on Twitter are hyping up his accuracy just because an oblivious dumbass like Claypool is hyping him up like he's Aikman or Chad Pennington or something and he's never really been that accurate beyond decent placement on his lollipol deep balls. And his sixth sense for feeling the rush ends at his fifth sense if you catch my drift.

If he's our best option this year it means a) Trubisky is beyond awful and b) that Pickett has no hope to be anything more than a below average JAG.

It took the defense creating 38 turnovers in 16 games for this gimp to be dragged to an 8-8 record. The only good thing if he's our starter this year is that hopefully it means we finish 5-12, Canada and a ton of the staff is fired, and Omar Khan says fuck you Colbert and drafts another QB.

[Kodiak.]

Rudolph has a strong arm? Well, that is news.

I said "strong enough". But the test is like they used to do with pitchers - can you throw 90? Don't care if it's over the plate, this is just the first cut.

Rudolph can probably throw the ball 50+ yards, and that's good enough for the NFL. The issue is he can't fire it with good accuracy. That's why you see him lolli-popping deep balls, and floating outs....because when he red-lines that arm his accuracy goes to shit. You don't see it in his college game film because he's playing pitch-n-catch with WTFO guys.

[Kodiak.]

from the clips, our offense is getting killed by pass rush in these glorified warmups.

That's the most concerning thing so far. The OL has to be quite a bit better to see a significant improvement in the offense. Yeah, Mitch and Pickett move much better than Ben, but I guarantee neither of them have close to the arm Ben still had at 39.

[Kodiak.]

and he's never really been that accurate beyond decent placement on his lollipol deep balls.

His ball placement on screens and dump-offs is elite. Seriously. That's the only good thing I can say about him.

And I agree he's getting hyped trying to inflate his trade value. Reality is he punched above his weight for a handful of games in 2019 because DC's gave him too much credit until they got several games of film on him.

[steelclan]

Following own advice not to read too much into things but really like what I am reading about Robinson. Sounds like he gets better each practice, has good physicality and has not looked overwhelmed in coverage albeit against 2nd and 3rd teamers. Hope he shows in pre-season.

[bradshaw2ben]

Following own advice not to read too much into things but really like what I am reading about Robinson. Sounds like he gets better each practice, has good physicality and has not looked overwhelmed in coverage albeit against 2nd and 3rd teamers. Hope he shows in pre-season.

Hope he makes Devin Bush look like a librarian and watch them still trot DB out there every Sunday.

[DP39]

Following own advice not to read too much into things but really like what I am reading about Robinson. Sounds like he gets better each practice, has good physicality and has not looked overwhelmed in coverage albeit against 2nd and 3rd teamers. Hope he shows in pre-season.

Hope he makes Devin Bush look like a librarian and watch them still trot DB out there every Sunday.

Yep. Deuce and MT gonna make sure Bush gets his 4th year and earns ( ) that $6M G$ -- come hell or high water. If MT gives him his 5th, we'll know what we've always suspected...that he's jumped the shark for those "family ties." Bush will probably give just enough effort to guarantee getting that extra $11MG$/5th year from his boy, too.

[anpsteel]

Following own advice not to read too much into things but really like what I am reading about Robinson. Sounds like he gets better each practice, has good physicality and has not looked overwhelmed in coverage albeit against 2nd and 3rd teamers. Hope he shows in pre-season.

Hope he makes Devin Bush look like a librarian and watch them still trot DB out there every Sunday.

Yep. Deuce and MT gonna make sure Bush gets his 4th year and earns ( ) that $6M G$ -- come hell or high water. If MT gives him his 5th, we'll know what we've always suspected...that he's jumped the shark for those "family ties." Bush will probably give just enough effort to guarantee getting that extra $11MG$/5th year from his boy, too.

The 5th year option was already declined by the Steelers.

He's a free agent after this season, unless they negotiate a long term deal

[DP39]

Hope he makes Devin Bush look like a librarian and watch them still trot DB out there every Sunday.

Yep. Deuce and MT gonna make sure Bush gets his 4th year and earns ( ) that $6M G$ -- come hell or high water. If MT gives him his 5th, we'll know what we've always suspected...that he's jumped the shark for those "family ties." Bush will probably give just enough effort to guarantee getting that extra $11MG$/5th year from his boy, too.

The 5th year option was already declined by the Steelers.

He's a free agent after this season, unless they negotiate a long term deal

Yep. Thanks. Brain fart on my end.

I even questioned it on my end when I typed that part and still somehow convinced myself that they hadn't declined it yet. Senior moment.

[El Kabong]

Yep. Deuce and MT gonna make sure Bush gets his 4th year and earns ( ) that $6M G$ -- come hell or high water. If MT gives him his 5th, we'll know what we've always suspected...that he's jumped the shark for those "family ties." Bush will probably give just enough effort to guarantee getting that extra $11MG$/5th year from his boy, too.

The 5th year option was already declined by the Steelers.

He's a free agent after this season, unless they negotiate a long term deal

Yep. Thanks. Brain fart on my end.

I even questioned it on my end when I typed that part and still somehow convinced myself that they hadn't declined it yet. Senior moment.

So you're taking back the Tomlin and Deuce shade there?

[Kodiak.]

Uuugghhh

Gene Takovic: Gerry, I have heard rumblings that Bush still looks tentative and lacks any sort of explosion. 1) Would you agree with that assessment?
Gerry Dulac: I would agree

[955876]

Just an awful awful pick. Especially considering they moved up to grab this prancing fairy.

If he pussy foots his way around camp I’d cut his ass.

Undersized and plays like a bitch. Horrible combinations for a MLB.

Oh, and he also thinks dead cats are funny.

[Kodiak.]

Uuugghhh

Gene Takovic: Gerry, I have heard rumblings that Bush still looks tentative and lacks any sort of explosion. 1) Would you agree with that assessment?
Gerry Dulac: I would agree
Weirdly, I'm not too worried in the long run-- Myles Jack appears to be spry and healthy for the moment, Spillane is having a really good offseason, draft pick Mark Robinson has flashed all over the place, Buddy Johnson continues to improve, and even Ulyssess Gibert III is teasing us with a stellar start to camp.

All they need to do is cut bait on Bush, and things will be in pretty good shape.

WTF?!?? Someone's response to my post got ADDED to MY post?!?

[Thrillsseeker]

Just an awful awful pick. Especially considering they moved up to grab this prancing fairy.

If he pussy foots his way around camp I’d cut his ass.

Undersized and plays like a bitch. Horrible combinations for a MLB.

Oh, and he also thinks dead cats are funny.

Spot onBut then they’d have to admit it was a horrible pick. I don’t see it happening.

Its fucked up but maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll blow out an ACL.

[RemoAZ]

Just an awful awful pick. Especially considering they moved up to grab this prancing fairy.

If he pussy foots his way around camp I’d cut his ass.

Undersized and plays like a bitch. Horrible combinations for a MLB.

Oh, and he also thinks dead cats are funny.

Spot onBut then they’d have to admit it was a horrible pick. I don’t see it happening.

Its fucked up but maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll blow out an ACL.

Maybe this is where they new addition to the coaching staff makes a difference. New voice make the tough call no one else has the balls to make??

[anpsteel]

Just an awful awful pick. Especially considering they moved up to grab this prancing fairy.

If he pussy foots his way around camp I’d cut his ass.

Undersized and plays like a bitch. Horrible combinations for a MLB.

Oh, and he also thinks dead cats are funny.

Spot onBut then they’d have to admit it was a horrible pick. I don’t see it happening.

Its fucked up but maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll blow out an ACL.

Maybe this is where they new addition to the coaching staff makes a difference. New voice make the tough call no one else has the balls to make??

As a first round pick, his rookie deal is fully guaranteed, so they take the financial and cap hit, even if they cut him.

So, unless he does something totally egregious, he's going to make the team.

[DP39]

Spot onBut then they’d have to admit it was a horrible pick. I don’t see it happening.

Its fucked up but maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll blow out an ACL.

Maybe this is where they new addition to the coaching staff makes a difference. New voice make the tough call no one else has the balls to make??

As a first round pick, his rookie deal is fully guaranteed, so they take the financial and cap hit, even if they cut him.

So, unless he does something totally egregious, he's going to make the team.

Yep.

It amazes me that contracts have come to that. Used to be that no draft contracts were fully guaranteed, then just a few, more recently...now all 1st rounders, and this years a few 2nd rounders have tried to get the same treatment, I believe.

I can't imagine giving a new employee (a 21 year old, at that) ~ $20M G$ and he's done absolutely zero for my company. And he gets to keep it even if he doesn't perform, at all. These pro sports athletes have no clue how good they have it -- all because they won the genetic lottery and then developed skills from there. Crazy when you think about it.

[RemoAZ]

I'm not talking about getting cut, I'm taking about losing playing time./snaps.

[COR-TEN]

Maybe this is where they new addition to the coaching staff makes a difference. New voice make the tough call no one else has the balls to make??

As a first round pick, his rookie deal is fully guaranteed, so they take the financial and cap hit, even if they cut him.

So, unless he does something totally egregious, he's going to make the team.

Yep.

It amazes me that contracts have come to that. Used to be that no draft contracts were fully guaranteed, then just a few, more recently...now all 1st rounders, and this years a few 2nd rounders have tried to get the same treatment, I believe.

I can't imagine giving a new employee (a 21 year old, at that) ~ $20M G$ and he's done absolutely zero for my company. And he gets to keep it even if he doesn't perform, at all. These pro sports athletes have no clue how good they have it -- all because they won the genetic lottery and then developed skills from there. Crazy when you think about it.

Some would argue they have been working at their craft for 4 years in college, and this is their reward. Also, them playing insures the NFL and advertisers get quality play, thus insuring their revenue stream. Follow the money, and you will get the answers.

I personally don't agree with the entire system, but it is what it is. But it's no secret I think people getting paid millions of dollars to chase a ball on a grassy field is absurd and preposterous. Yet this is what we have. And the majority of the country - the world for that matter - thinks it's perfectly fine.

[DP39]

As a first round pick, his rookie deal is fully guaranteed, so they take the financial and cap hit, even if they cut him.

So, unless he does something totally egregious, he's going to make the team.

Yep.

It amazes me that contracts have come to that. Used to be that no draft contracts were fully guaranteed, then just a few, more recently...now all 1st rounders, and this years a few 2nd rounders have tried to get the same treatment, I believe.

I can't imagine giving a new employee (a 21 year old, at that) ~ $20M G$ and he's done absolutely zero for my company. And he gets to keep it even if he doesn't perform, at all. These pro sports athletes have no clue how good they have it -- all because they won the genetic lottery and then developed skills from there. Crazy when you think about it.

Some would argue they have been working at their craft for 4 years in college, and this is their reward. Also, them playing insures the NFL and advertisers get quality play, thus insuring their revenue stream. Follow the money, and you will get the answers.

I personally don't agree with the entire system, but it is what it is. But it's no secret I think people getting paid millions of dollars to chase a ball on a grassy field is absurd and preposterous. Yet this is what we have. And the majority of the country - the world for that matter - thinks it's perfectly fine.

I Agree with you there.

[bradshaw2ben]

Uuugghhh

Gene Takovic: Gerry, I have heard rumblings that Bush still looks tentative and lacks any sort of explosion. 1) Would you agree with that assessment?
Gerry Dulac: I would agree
Weirdly, I'm not too worried in the long run-- Myles Jack appears to be spry and healthy for the moment, Spillane is having a really good offseason, draft pick Mark Robinson has flashed all over the place, Buddy Johnson continues to improve, and even Ulyssess Gibert III is teasing us with a stellar start to camp.

All they need to do is cut bait on Bush, and things will be in pretty good shape.

WTF?!?? Someone's response to my post got ADDED to MY post?!?

Oops sorry that was me pressing the wrong button

[bradshaw2ben]

Weirdly, I'm not too worried in the long run-- Myles Jack appears to be spry and healthy for the moment, Spillane is having a really good offseason, draft pick Mark Robinson has flashed all over the place, Buddy Johnson continues to improve, and even Ulyssess Gibert III is teasing us with a stellar start to camp.

All they need to do is cut bait on Bush, and things will be in pretty good shape.