Draft Speculating

[gojira5150]

@Pabst
grade A 4-star post... but I'll also say that it's possible and perhaps even likely that had any of those guys been drafted into this organization, they might not have received the same developmental coaching. This is my concern. I want them to draft the CB who needs the least amount of development or has unbelievable self-motivated work ethic.

Thanks for the complement.

I am in no way, shape, or form a die hard college football fan nor a draftnik, so please take all of my opinions for what they're worth (i.e. not much).

What i will say is this: I feel like every single top CB prospect over the last decade has been knocked for "being too grabby". That was my main purpose in copying all of that.

So, who were the CB's in your post.

[Mick]

I guess not surprising that “never gets too close to the guy he’s supposed to be covering” isn’t necessarily the best thing to see in a cb scouting report.

[Pabst]

So, who were the CB's in your post.

1. Sauce Gardner
2. Patrick Surtain
3. Joey Porter Jr
4. Trevon Diggs
5. Jalen Ramsey

All are from NFL.com

[Jizz Mop]

My biggest concern with Wright and Jones are that they appear to be RT only (Wright could maybe be G too) but the Steelers really only need LT (one could argue C in play as well for future proofing but definitely not G at this point).

If you think Chuks or Moore is the answer at LT then I guess I could see the pick. I know Chuks played LT in college but I’m not sold yet he could make the switch over to protecting the blind side.

At the end of the day, I’d still probably rather have one of the top EDGE or CB prospects. Or, if the Steelers truly are going to run it a ton, I also really like Washington as the play at either 1.17 or 2.32.

Let me indulge myself for a moment with the thought of Dawand Jones at 17 and Darnell Washington at 32.

mmm

ooh that's nice

delicious

All right, not happening but that would be sweet.

Honestly, Darnell Washington might end up being the best left tackle in this class.

Im not sure D Jones can't play LT but even if he's RT only, Chuks in his sleep is better than Moore and Dawand is in a different class entirely than Chuks as a RT. They would be an infinitely better OL than they were in 2022.

Washington lasts till 32? Our mock has him going 4th overall.

[yygy]

Grabbing by a CB is fine as long as it’s quick enough to not get flagged. In fact, you might even say it’s in their toolbox. Like OL you want guy to hover right at the edge of legality.

Any rate I’m a little worried about drafting a CB to but it’s a good draft so I think one of the first couple of pics will be

I also kind of feel like Porter is overrated, but I admit that’s based more on, his name, then on an analysis of his game on my part

[DP39]

So, who were the CB's in your post.

1. Sauce Gardner
2. Patrick Surtain
3. Joey Porter Jr
4. Trevon Diggs
5. Jalen Ramsey

All are from NFL.com

Nice work, Pabst.

I won't speak to the others, but it appears they nailed #4 pretty good. It's a crime he was named first team all pro. One of the most overrated players in the league, imo.

[Pabst]

I won't speak to the others, but it appears they nailed #4 pretty good. It's a crime he was named first team all pro. One of the most overrated players in the league, imo.

I don't watch much Dallas, but I've heard alot of that regarding Diggs.

INT numbers can be very misleading when looking at CBs. Devin McCourty immediately comes to mind.

[Deebo]

@Pabst
grade A 4-star post... but I'll also say that it's possible and perhaps even likely that had any of those guys been drafted into this organization, they might not have received the same developmental coaching. This is my concern. I want them to draft the CB who needs the least amount of development or has unbelievable self-motivated work ethic.

Thanks for the complement.

I am in no way, shape, or form a die hard college football fan nor a draftnik, so please take all of my opinions for what they're worth (i.e. not much).

What i will say is this: I feel like every single top CB prospect over the last decade has been knocked for "being too grabby". That was my main purpose in copying all of that.

Wouldn't you expect to see that from CFB DB's though? The consequences are only 15 yards and perhaps they are coached to that effect? In the NFL, the consequences can be far greater so the technique is more important?

That's my layman's explanation....

[Jizz Mop]

Some of these “experts” and their mock drafts are just stupid

Look at this one, featuring 2nd round only

Darnell “Fury Darling” Washington going 59th?

Idiots

https://walterfootball.com/draft2023_2.amp

[SteelerDayTrader]

Walter Football ?????

Lolololz

[Jizz Mop]

Walter Football ?????

Lolololz

Lolz, I know

So dumb

Here’s another, going 45th! Stupidity!!!

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/p ... banks-news

[Ice]

That 4.26-4.32 40 for Abanikanda today may have been made him a couple bucks. Not to mention the vertical and broad, which also would've been tops at the combine.

[ol skool]

That 4.26-4.32 40 for Abanikanda today may have been made him a couple bucks. Not to mention the vertical and broad, which also would've been tops at the combine.

I took him for the Patriots with the 135th pick. There should be a warrant out for my arrest.

[Ice]

That 4.26-4.32 40 for Abanikanda today may have been made him a couple bucks. Not to mention the vertical and broad, which also would've been tops at the combine.

I took him for the Patriots with the 135th pick. There should be a warrant out for my arrest.

For my part, I was kinda pissed the Birds invested in Rashad Penny before the mock started, cause he was a player I was really hoping to pick. That'll look like a steal in a few weeks, and hopefully for seasons after. Great Panther, and a great kid by every account out of South Oakland.

[tbsteel]

I mean, I respect STD for planting his flag in the ground and going against the mock draft groupthink, which is consistently wrong every year. I've given him hell in the past too for what some would consider are extreme takes on players, but he isn't afraid to make a stand and tell you why. Sure, everyone misses, but he nailed Rhamondre Stevenson being a badass and I think he was bigger on Sauce Gardner than anyone I remember just for a couple of examples.

[Jizz Mop]

I mean, I respect STD for planting his flag in the ground and going against the mock draft groupthink, which is consistently wrong every year. I've given him hell in the past too for what some would consider are extreme takes on players, but he isn't afraid to make a stand and tell you why. Sure, everyone misses, but he nailed Rhamondre Stevenson being a badass and I think he was bigger on Sauce Gardner than anyone I remember just for a couple of examples.

[Pabst]

Funny thing about the draft is that we all remember the one or two guys we hyped up that ended up becoming great....but we forget about the 20 other prospects we liked that flopped.

[Scunge]

Everybody remembers that draft where we took Artie Burns right? He was the 5th CB taken in 2016.

Let us do an exercise where we use that 2016 draft for cornerbacks and compare it to this 2023 upcoming draft for cornerbacks.

Jalen Ramsey, Eli Apple, Vernon Hargreaves, William Jackson all went before our 25th pick. Ramsey was the top of the class. Hargreaves was a bust, and Apple is a journeyman, nothing special. Jackson was a good starting #1 CB for Cincy.

We took Artie Burns who was somewhere between a semi-bust/journeyman. He is still hanging around the NFL.

Now I compare/contrast that with this upcoming 2023 class. Gonzalez is the best CB like Jalen Ramsey. But when I look at Devon Witherspoon, Joey Porter Jr, Deontae Banks, it makes me pause and think which of these players will turn out to be a bust? To be a journeyman?

Will Witherspoon turn out like Vernon Hargreaves? Will Joey Porter Jr be like Eli Apple? Is Deontae Banks another Artie Burns?

Just as in 2016, this 2023 draft class will have players that fail, that become busts, etc.

And just as in 2016 there will players selected PAST the first round that become starters, that become Pro Bowlers, that sign big contracts.

In round 2 of that 2016 draft, the Miami Dolphins took Xavien Howard with the 38th overall pick. 28 INTs, 4 Pro Bowls, 2 All Pros
Carolina in round 2 took James Bradbury at pick 62, he would leave in free agency and make the Pro Bowl for the Giants and would sign with Philly this past year and they made it to the Super Bowl.
Washington took Kendall Fuller at pick 84 in the 3rd round. Fuller has been an above average starting #1 CB. He would be traded to KC played well for them and then signed a big deal (4 years $40 million) to return to Washington.
The Ravens took Tavon Young in round 4, pick 1044. Young was a very good player, perhaps the best nickel back for a time, and he signed a 3 year, $26 million contract but then had a neck injury and and an ACL injury which has effectively ended his NFL career.

Howard, Bradberry, Fuller and Young in 2016, who are their equivalents in this 2023 draft?

Would the Smiths be one of these gems in round 2 or 3? I am referring to Cam Smith and Terrell Smith. How about Julius Brents? Kelee Ringo? Rejzohn Wright? Tyrique Stevenson? Garrett Williams? There are probably 12 or so CBs that I believe will have a shot of becoming a starter and a couple that might end up making Pro Bowls.

I believe this cornerback class to be very deep and so with that in mind,

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away and know when to run

I trade back from 17 or 32, procure an extra 3rd and I double dip at cornerback, take one in round 2 and one in round 3. Say an outside CB with size and length and a slot CB with smooth hips and change of direction. Just as in 2016, you don't have to reach for a CB in round 1. Rounds 2, 3, and 4 will have gold in them thar hills!!!

[SteelerDayTrader]

That 4.26-4.32 40 for Abanikanda today may have been made him a couple bucks. Not to mention the vertical and broad, which also would've been tops at the combine.

I would draft him at 32. For as muscled as he is that’s an extreme outlier time

[SteelerDayTrader]

I mean, I respect STD for planting his flag in the ground and going against the mock draft groupthink, which is consistently wrong every year. I've given him hell in the past too for what some would consider are extreme takes on players, but he isn't afraid to make a stand and tell you why. Sure, everyone misses, but he nailed Rhamondre Stevenson being a badass and I think he was bigger on Sauce Gardner than anyone I remember just for a couple of examples.

[jebrick]

Now I compare/contrast that with this upcoming 2023 class. Gonzalez is the best CB like Jalen Ramsey. But when I look at Devon Witherspoon, Joey Porter Jr, Deontae Banks, it makes me pause and think which of these players will turn out to be a bust? To be a journeyman?

Will Witherspoon turn out like Vernon Hargreaves? Will Joey Porter Jr be like Eli Apple? Is Deontae Banks another Artie Burns?

Of this class I would not touch Banks until the 2nd round at the earliest. Once you a CB that is a " great athlete" in the combine but does not show ball or decent coverage skills on tape, you are then HOPING he will learn the skills to be an NFL CB. JPJ is close to the same but is better. Personally, I think Witherspoon may be the best in this class. Forbes is one of my favorites.

for the Steelers, who play off-man and zone a lot, there are some really good CBs in this draft without projecting. Cam Smith, Gonzalez, Witherspoon, Forbes, Phillips and Garrett Williams all have shown on tape that they are good in those types of coverage.

IMHO, Ringo and Stevenson will be safeties in the NFL.

[Ice]

That 4.26-4.32 40 for Abanikanda today may have been made him a couple bucks. Not to mention the vertical and broad, which also would've been tops at the combine.

I would draft him at 32. For as muscled as he is that’s an extreme outlier time

Only issue with the (and I've seen pretty much his whole career) is pass pro, and maybe being a little too locked into where the play is blocked, but he's got a lot of positives, and he's definitely a little tank out there. Nose for the EZ, too.

WR Wayne and LB Dennis showed some athletic ability at Pro Day, as well. Really like Sirvocea as a college player, and Wayne has some reliable hands as a WR.

[Smashmouth21]

Now I compare/contrast that with this upcoming 2023 class. Gonzalez is the best CB like Jalen Ramsey. But when I look at Devon Witherspoon, Joey Porter Jr, Deontae Banks, it makes me pause and think which of these players will turn out to be a bust? To be a journeyman?

Will Witherspoon turn out like Vernon Hargreaves? Will Joey Porter Jr be like Eli Apple? Is Deontae Banks another Artie Burns?

Of this class I would not touch Banks until the 2nd round at the earliest. Once you a CB that is a " great athlete" in the combine but does not show ball or decent coverage skills on tape, you are then HOPING he will learn the skills to be an NFL CB. JPJ is close to the same but is better. Personally, I think Witherspoon may be the best in this class. Forbes is one of my favorites.

for the Steelers, who play off-man and zone a lot, there are some really good CBs in this draft without projecting. Cam Smith, Gonzalez, Witherspoon, Forbes, Phillips and Garrett Williams all have shown on tape that they are good in those types of coverage.

IMHO, Ringo and Stevenson will be safeties in the NFL.

I like Banks more than most and I think he could be the pick at 1.17 because Gonzalez, Witherspoon and JPJ are probably gone.

Given the slot defender need and the light safety class, is Ringo actually a heady selection if he falls to 2.32? I was not high on him at first, but I think you could give Ringo a shot as a boundary CB. Worst case he could be a legit big nickel and/or safety with amazing physical traits.

[SteelerDayTrader]

I’m off the draft a CB early wagon

The Steelers CB unit looks pretty good at the moment. Not opposed to adding a CB but I want outlier talent for the 1st 2 picks if possible

Lots of good CBs in this draft

[Mick]

Now I compare/contrast that with this upcoming 2023 class. Gonzalez is the best CB like Jalen Ramsey. But when I look at Devon Witherspoon, Joey Porter Jr, Deontae Banks, it makes me pause and think which of these players will turn out to be a bust? To be a journeyman?

Will Witherspoon turn out like Vernon Hargreaves? Will Joey Porter Jr be like Eli Apple? Is Deontae Banks another Artie Burns?

Of this class I would not touch Banks until the 2nd round at the earliest. Once you a CB that is a " great athlete" in the combine but does not show ball or decent coverage skills on tape, you are then HOPING he will learn the skills to be an NFL CB. JPJ is close to the same but is better. Personally, I think Witherspoon may be the best in this class. Forbes is one of my favorites.

for the Steelers, who play off-man and zone a lot, there are some really good CBs in this draft without projecting. Cam Smith, Gonzalez, Witherspoon, Forbes, Phillips and Garrett Williams all have shown on tape that they are good in those types of coverage.

IMHO, Ringo and Stevenson will be safeties in the NFL.

I like Banks more than most and I think he could be the pick at 1.17 because Gonzalez, Witherspoon and JPJ are probably gone.

Given the slot defender need and the light safety class, is Ringo actually a heady selection if he falls to 2.32? I was not high on him at first, but I think you could give Ringo a shot as a boundary CB. Worst case he could be a legit big nickel and/or safety with amazing physical traits.

i just feel like you could probably do better than a guy that was maybe the 6th best player at his position in his conference at 17th overall. If that’s the best CB remaining at 17, the answer to me is look at other positions.

[Smashmouth21]

i just feel like you could probably do better than a guy that was maybe the 6th best player at his position in his conference at 17th overall. If that’s the best CB remaining at 17, the answer to me is look at other positions.

I agree with you premise, if not your player eval. I’m on record preferring the top 3 OTs, CBs, and EDGEs as well as Washington. But I have a feeling Banks may be the best CB on the board.

So I was wondering if the Steelers really love Ringo and if they go trenches at 1.17, the FO then pulls the trigger on him at 2.32. Could work out if Ringo ends up that CB that matches up against the bigger, less shifty WRs or even if he ultimately transitioned to big nickel or safety.

I wasn’t big on Ringo as a pure cover guy but I am warming up to the idea of selecting him if it’s outside the first round.

[Scunge]

The thing with Ringo is that he is so young, he is 20 years old and has his birthday coming up on June 27th.

We traditionally have had pretty good success in drafting younger prospects, I wonder if that trend continues under Kahn?

I think that 2nd round pick 49 slot will see a group of CBs that we can choose and have a starter.

Julius Brent, Terrell Smith and Rejzohn Wright. Brent and Wright have had meetings with the Steelers, either here in Pittsburgh or at their school pro day . Smith I am not sure about the Steelers interest, but he reminds me of Ike Taylor.

You wait to take that CB and if frees up pick 17 and 32 to address OT, DT or ILB/off ball linebacker

[K_C_]

The thing with Ringo is that he is so young, he is 20 years old and has his birthday coming up on June 27th.

We traditionally have had pretty good success in drafting younger prospects, I wonder if that trend continues under Kahn?

I think that 2nd round pick 49 slot will see a group of CBs that we can choose and have a starter.

Julius Brent, Terrell Smith and Rejzohn Wright. Brent and Wright have had meetings with the Steelers, either here in Pittsburgh or at their school pro day . Smith I am not sure about the Steelers interest, but he reminds me of Ike Taylor.

You wait to take that CB and if frees up pick 17 and 32 to address OT, DT or ILB/off ball linebacker

If you believe we take a corner in the second (they aren't passing on Peezy Jr if he's there at 17. No way. No how), who do you see the Steelers taking at 17? O-line?

Sorry Scunge, I missed the end of your post, I get it now.

Corner is a massive need for this team and with Tomlin already letting everyone know that Peterson is going to be a chess piece/safety, I believe we're taking a corner at 17. It's a deep class but they need a day one starter. There are maybe 4 of those on the board.

[Scunge]

I disagree that there are only 4 day one starters in this CB class.

I think there are 10 players that can start day one.

I only see one CB that is that can't miss stud, Christian Gonzalez. To me he has everything that you could want, with everybody else there are questions.

Devon Witherspoon, he played in a great Illinois secondary, Quan Martin and Sydney Brown have a great chance of being drafted in rounds 2-3.
Witherspoon is only 180 pounds and he plays big for his size, he doesn't shy from contact will do run support and is a good tackler, but he is on the small size and I have to wonder how he will hold up in the NFL.

And when a player does not work out at the combine and then does not work out at his Illinois Pro Day and instead is pushing his testing to April 5th, that to me says he has something to hide. I don't think he has good/great speed. I don't think he has a great 3-cone time. I think he will show stiffness and a lack of agility and twitchiness.

You have to look at the scheme these CBs played in college and then try and project if they have the physical tools to thrive in the NFL. I take a pass on Witherspoon in round 1. If he was still there at our 2nd round pick, 32, yeah, maybe I take a chance on him.

Joey Porter Jr. did test at the combine but the trend is that players will choose not to do some tests that they will perform badly in. Joey did not do the 3-cone or short shuttle. I think he was smart not to do those tests because scouts have talked about how his change of direction and his lateral agility, 'twitchiness' shows up poorly on tape. He is not a player who is scheme independent, meaning he can play any way you want. No, Joey Porter Jr is all about being a press man CB and getting those long 34" arms on you, to jam you, delay you long enough because his feet and quickness aren't there to match a WR as he runs his route. I can see Porter being stictly an outside CB and not being the type that can follow his man anywhere. Say you want to match him up on J'mar Chase, what if Chase lines up on the opposite side? Does Porter flip to the other side to follow him? What if Chase lines up in the slot, does Joey follow him and line up in the slot??? Now some might say, sure Porter can do that! Can he?? I think that remains to be seen.

Also, throw in just 1 career INT? You spend a 1st round pick, 17th overall, shouldn't a CB taken there have more ball production than that?

Julius Brent out of Kansas State showed up at the combine and had an incredible workout, he did the 3 cone and short shuttle. He has long 34 inch arms like Joey Porter Jr. He is 6'3" 198 and ran a 4.53, but his 3 cone was a 6.63 and his shuttle a 4.05, and with those long arms and his explosive leaping ability 41.5 inch vertical, 11'6" broad jump, he can dominate in contested catch scenarios. Physical in run support too.

I think he is a day one starter and if we can get him in round 2 pick 49, that would be a tremendous value and way better than selecting Porter Jr at 17. I think Brents is more versatile as a zone corner over Porter and makes splash plays, he had 4 INTs this past season

Rejzohn Wright did not test at the combine but I know the Steelers are interested in him. 6'2 193, 32.5 arms, not as long as Porters but here is another a talented man corner who scouts note how he has the quickness and change of direction to stay in phase with a WR once the play is past the initial jam at the line of scrimmage. And the ball production is there, he has talent to bait bad throws and the ability to make plays on the ball, 4 INTs and 17 passes defensed in his 25 games at Oregon State. When Wright was matched up on Jordan Addison he did very good job.

I think Wright can be a day one starter.

I see Brent and Wright as the CBs that fail to go in round 1 but end up being top CBs that get that big 2nd contract. And the guys that went before them in round 1, you have people scratching their heads wondering why they failed.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Rejzohn Wright is all arms and legs

Spindly

He won’t hold up in Pittsburgh