Why I rarely question the play calls...

[jeemie]

Swissvale72 wrote:
...and neither can you assume, Jeems, as you've done, that the low YAC is an indictment of Vick's passing.

I'm not.

Rewatched the game yet?

[Fury]

I like how some folks think football knowledge is akin to a MIT degree and only certain people can do that. Kind of weird when our offensive coordinator never played the game at a level higher than Pop Warner. How did he become a HC and OC quality? His dad had something to do with that. Same as Bellichek. Football is a game and if you understand the game it is not that complicated. There are high school coaches that understand the game but will never get the chance to move up. There is no requirement to be a NFL coach. Somehow they get into the system. I know the coaching staff for all pro teams are dedicated and they know the sport, but it isn't building a space shuttle complicated. I'll be the first to admit I'm not an X & O guy but after following football for 50 years as a player and fan, you pick up stuff and you can figure out right and wrong. There are a lot of guys on these boards that have tremendous football knowledge. There are many that played in college and I know of 1 or 2 posters that played professionally. Many are more qualified to be an offensive coordinator than our current one. I don't like folks being dismissed as idiots when they discuss the game and game management because they are "pro football" qualified but they do know the game.

[Havoc]

Good offenses don't let opposing defenses dictate what they're going to do in key situations, and they especially shouldn't dictate it enough to force you to not give the ball to the best player on the field when you just need a freaking yard. It was a bad call each time, end of story.

I thought good offenses "took what the defense gives them"

I hear that every week

Football is much more complicated than this and basketball too for that matter.

If taking what the defense is giving you is going to result in losing the game, you cannot spend the entire game only taking what the defense gives you.

There might be reasons the defense is giving this to you... reasons that benefit them and not you.

[Legacy User]

Yeah, you give it to Bell twice. End of discussion.

Someone give this man an NFL head coaching job!

The funny thing here is if this really would happen majority would be bitching about play calling.. "How can you run the ball into that front two times in a row". Fans always know what is best after the fact.

[Legacy User]

Good offenses don't let opposing defenses dictate what they're going to do in key situations, and they especially shouldn't dictate it enough to force you to not give the ball to the best player on the field when you just need a freaking yard. It was a bad call each time, end of story.

And if he does not get it the same bitching about play calling will happen.

[Legacy User]

Bell should have carried the ball on 4th down the 1st time, and on 3rd and 4th and 2.

Idiotic play calling from Haley/Tomlin. No doubt in my mind Bell gets 1 yard in OT.

Unfortunately the game is not played in yours or anyone's mind. If Bell does not get that 4th down this site would have a meltdown over the call. Running Bell would have been no guarantee of success. We have all seen backs as good or better stopped in those situations over the years.

Idiotc play calling was going to be the battle cry in any situation or play call that did not meet with success.

[Nick79]

Jeemie....he had the highest completion rate in the nfl.....

stop....breathe....think....breathe....think.....

you said he was off all night

you were wrong

Passes...can...still...be...completed...even...if...they...are...late...and...off...target.

Especially...when...they...are...little...passes...just...a...couple...yards...past...the...LOS...and...the...Ravens...are...in...umbrella...coverage.

But...then...since...the...passes...are...late...and...off...target...the...umbrella...coverage...can...collapse...to...the...ball.

And...then...you...get...a...4.77...YPA.

His 4.77 YPA had to be one of the lowest, if not THE lowest, of the week.

Yes absolutely, to be fair, 124 yards on 26 tries sucks, the element we lose without Ben is his YPA is usually around 8. Vick had a % because he was throwing so short.

[jeemie]

Good offenses don't let opposing defenses dictate what they're going to do in key situations, and they especially shouldn't dictate it enough to force you to not give the ball to the best player on the field when you just need a freaking yard. It was a bad call each time, end of story.

And if he does not get it the same bitching about play calling will happen.

Not me.

I don't know how many times I have to say...and prove...that the result of a play does not alter my judgment as to whether I thought the decision to run that play was a good idea or not.

[jeemie]

Yes absolutely, to be fair, 124 yards on 26 tries sucks, the element we lose without Ben is his YPA is usually around 8. Vick had a % because he was throwing so short.

That was part of it.

Also part of it was that even though he was completing those passes, he wasn't getting the ball to the receivers in such a way as they could get YAC.

And several of the long ones he threw, that would have increased his YPA (and some of THOSE were quite good, actually...Vick has a nice deep ball) were dropped, or defensed, or the receiver couldn't stay in bounds.

Most of Ben's passes are short too.

[Stosh-67]

*The 3rd & 2 pass to Bell wasn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. It may not have led Brown, but it wasn't behind him. I just watched the tape again, and I think the DB makes the play regardless of where Vick put the ball.

Swiss......I'd have to see the play again...........
But in real time...I thought Vick hesitated in getting the ball to Bell...............thought I yelled "throw the ball already"...........which was too late as the DB saw the play unfolding and started to close.

[jeemie]

*The 3rd & 2 pass to Bell wasn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. It may not have led Brown, but it wasn't behind him. I just watched the tape again, and I think the DB makes the play regardless of where Vick put the ball.

Swiss......I'd have to see the play again...........
But in real time...I thought Vick hesitated in getting the ball to Bell...............thought I yelled "throw the ball already"...........which was too late as the DB saw the play unfolding and started to close.

It was definitely late coming out.

Vick gets the ball out on time...Bell has a chance to juke, avoid the hit, and fall forward for the extra yard and the first.

[Stosh-67]

Bell should have carried the ball on 4th down the 1st time, and on 3rd and 4th and 2.

Idiotic play calling from Haley/Tomlin. No doubt in my mind Bell gets 1 yard in OT.

Unfortunately the game is not played in yours or anyone's mind. If Bell does not get that 4th down this site would have a meltdown over the call. Running Bell would have been no guarantee of success. We have all seen backs as good or better stopped in those situations over the years.

Idiotc play calling was going to be the battle cry in any situation or play call that did not meet with success.

As i watch a game........as they huddle up or get to the line.........i think of what I would want them to run........more times than not, I will yell out a play i'd like to see...........as my kids and i will do this when watching together. We will bark out type of play and player..........My most famous call was when i yelled out........lol........ "Mike Wallace, 95 yard TD right here".....................and bang........2011 in Arizona, backed up at the 5.....Mike Wallace, 95 yard TD right there".................we nearly hit the ceiling.......with joy....and laughter.

Now I've probably been wrong 95% of the time since.........but its a fun thing to do.

Point being..........

Once they reached third and 2......i immediately said......or yelled out "Give the ball to Bell, twice"
Would have not been pissed at all......or second guessing. You go with your best. The kid was hitting it hard all night. Think he gained 2 or more yards 18 of 22 carries, positive yards on 21 of 22 carries........not much penetration by the DL or LB's all game......no Ngata, No Suggs,................was getting stronger as the game wore on. And..............in his time as a PS.......has shown a great knack for turning nothing into something, has turned many a stalemates into a slivering, twisting juking.......2, 3, 4 yards gain. Falls forward. Always.

Very rarely does he get tackled for a loss...........most likely a blown assignment. He was tackled for a one yard loss on his first carry of the game.....which then computes to 6.0+ yards a carry for his last 21 carries of the game.

I would not be surprised one bit if someone had a stat that told me....."Over the last three years, Lev Bell has been tackled for a loss the fewest amount of time of all running backs with 100 or more carries" basically the top 20-30 backs in the NFL.

Point being.............
I have never............or never will.............. in my play prediction game .......yell out....." Send in Johnson, Nix, Heath, Villy with Bell in the backfield....split all those "weapons" out wide......and then bootleg Vick to the short side of the field"...................against a defense of 11 men ............that has seen the PS run left the entire second half.....against an offense with one single threat that may have them back pedaling......and not soley focusing on stopping a play with-in 2-4 yards of the line of scrimmage.

I have never............or never will.............. in my play prediction game .......yell out that play.......knowing I have Lev Bell, the best RB in all of the land...... and Antonio Brown, top 2 WR in the NFL..... as two of my
options.....and could have added additional speed to the field with DHB and Coates........that could have had the defense back peddling much faster........which would have opened up the field......and afforded a better pass run option for Vick.....

Now in real time.......when I yelled give the ball to Bell, twice.........and when I saw the "worry free heavy package" come in..................I said to myself........oh shit.....an extra OT, and two FB's......for Bell to run behind............

Point being......maybe on Monday night.............when the moment is right, when the mood is in the air....................will we reach for the "cialis"............or get the ball to two of the best players in football.

Or will we over think again..................and send out Johnson, Nix, Archer, Villy and Spaeth.......and run a jet sweep to Archer ....to the short side of the field.......just to prove we can outsmart the other team

[SteelyourFace]

lots of good discussion. I don't get bashing of posters whose opinions are different. all we have here are opinions.

Put me down for this:
1.Run w/ Bell on 3rd down. that's a no-brainer. if the 3rd down carry gets it close (4th and less than 1 yd) run it again.
2. I don't have a problem w/ calling a pass play on 4th and 2. the Ravens were going to sell out to stop the run. It is extremely difficult to get 2 yards vs a defense selling out to stop the run. I don't care who your RB is.
3. My opinion...the throw to the sidelines was a tough throw. timing and placement had to be good. that is a pass that can easily result in a pick six if the QB fucks it up. It wasn't a good throw. in fact, it was a pretty damn bad throw. but, it wasn't a play call that was good for Vick. that's the problem I have with it. if the safeties were that close to the line, I think you let AB run a slant which give Vick more margin for error.

I don't buy into the "run it twice w/ Bell no matter what the defense is doing" meme.

[stinger8]

An out pass to the wrong side of the field would be fraught with just as much risk.

In zero coverage, the DB could rapidly close on Brown even if he was open. The pass would have to be perfect.

You're going to rely on Vick to throw a perfect pass? He had an easy pop pass to Bell the previous play that he was late with- allowed the DB to come up and smack down bell short of the sticks.

Does the defense ALWAYS dictate what you're going to do?

you think we didn't know the ravens were selling out to stop the run? I still trust Bell to get the yard even if that is the case.

Why? Because he's done it.

I rarely saw Vick throw an on-time accurate pass all night.

This comment is wrought with hyperbole. "Perfect pass" please. Throw the ball outside and numbers to knees and its complete. Why can't people just accept that an NFL QB HAS to be able to make that throw 90% + of the time. He had no pressure, he was warmed up, the corner was 3 yards away, it was a pass you have to make. That's it, no excuses. As an aside what is a "pop" pass. Do you get a soda if you complete it?

[jeemie]

Stinger, I'm not absolving Vick from messing up the throw.

I'm simply commenting that I don't trust him to make that throw, so if I was the OC, seeing how Vick wasn't really all that sharp all night long, I wouldn't have called that play.

SteelYourFace- I like your idea- that's a good alternative.

[SteelyourFace]

Yeah, I'm not absolving Vick for making a poor throw either. it was a poor throw.

again, my beef is the play call was not playing to Vick's strength

[Stosh-67]

lots of good discussion. I don't get bashing of posters whose opinions are different. all we have here are opinions.

Put me down for this:
1.Run w/ Bell on 3rd down. that's a no-brainer. if the 3rd down carry gets it close (4th and less than 1 yd) run it again.
2. I don't have a problem w/ calling a pass play on 4th and 2. the Ravens were going to sell out to stop the run. It is extremely difficult to get 2 yards vs a defense selling out to stop the run. I don't care who your RB is.
3. My opinion...the throw to the sidelines was a tough throw. timing and placement had to be good. that is a pass that can easily result in a pick six if the QB fucks it up. It wasn't a good throw. in fact, it was a pretty damn bad throw. but, it wasn't a play call that was good for Vick. that's the problem I have with it. if the safeties were that close to the line, I think you let AB run a slant which give Vick more margin for error.

I don't buy into the "run it twice w/ Bell no matter what the defense is doing" meme.

Good thought process.
I think they ran a slant to AB on one of those short down and distance situations late in 4th or OT.
Did not look good at all. Not sure if it was a Bad pass. Bad timing. Stopped route. Not in sync....

He is a 55% career passer over 15 years and 3,000 attempts.
That ain't changing.
That percentage is probably lower in high pressure situations
That sideline pass from the left side of the field to the right sideline...for a left handed qb is a longer pass than one thinks. That's a 20-25 yard pass....?

Terrible throw. He hits his target half the time....misses half the time. Enough a body of work to assume that. A career.
We got the wrong half the other night.
Does that mean the play had less than a 60% chance of success?

[tunch]

And if he does not get it the same bitching about play calling will happen.

Then you call those people stupid.

I never have a problem with putting your fate in the hands of your best players.

He's the best back in football. His line is good. Hand it off or play action. It's not complicated.

We begged for this luxury five years ago.

[tunch]

.........

How do........ y'all read..... this shit........

[Stosh-67]

.........

How do........ y'all read..... this shit........

Hey...
Your miss quoting me.
Lol

[tunch]

.........

How do........ y'all read..... this shit........

Hey...
Your miss quoting me.
Lol

I'll take it easy since your written communication skills lead me to believe that you're retarded.

Likely not like a full-blown drooler but probably a trainable at best.

[Legacy User]

.........

How do........ y'all read..... this shit........

Hey...
Your miss quoting me.
Lol

[Legacy User]

the result of a play does not alter my judgment as to whether I thought the decision to run that play was a good idea or not.

[Legacy User]

Good offenses don't let opposing defenses dictate what they're going to do in key situations, and they especially shouldn't dictate it enough to force you to not give the ball to the best player on the field when you just need a freaking yard. It was a bad call each time, end of story.

And if he does not get it the same bitching about play calling will happen.

Not me.

I don't know how many times I have to say...and prove...that the result of a play does not alter my judgment as to whether I thought the decision to run that play was a good idea or not.

Something tells me you'd be considerably less vehement in your opposition to the 4th down pass to Brown if it's a completion and Brown shakes loose for a TD...

[Legacy User]

And if he does not get it the same bitching about play calling will happen.

Not me.

I don't know how many times I have to say...and prove...that the result of a play does not alter my judgment as to whether I thought the decision to run that play was a good idea or not.

Something tells me you'd be considerably less vehement in your opposition to the 4th down pass to Brown if it's a completion and Brown shakes loose for a TD...

Furthermore......football is not a math equation.....showing your work doesnt count....

On some level ....all plays that work are good plays ...

[Jobu]

Good thought process.
I think they ran a slant to AB on one of those short down and distance situations late in 4th or OT.
Did not look good at all. Not sure if it was a Bad pass. Bad timing. Stopped route. Not in sync....

I think it was Coates.
The uncalled DPI didn't help.

[jeemie]

Something tells me you'd be considerably less vehement in your opposition to the 4th down pass to Brown if it's a completion and Brown shakes loose for a TD...

Yeah- I'd say what I always say:

"Wow- I wouldn't have done that, but I'll take the result!"

Done that lots of times on these boards.

Judging a decision based on its results is dumb...it'd be like playing Russian Roulette with a six-shooter, pulling the trigger five times and not dying, and saying "Hey- I didn't die the first five times I pulled the trigger. Makes sense to pull it the sixth time!"

[Stosh-67]

I'll take it easy since your written communication skills lead me to believe that you're retarded.

Likely not like a full-blown drooler but probably a trainable at best.

Hey its Friday.
Happy hour.
Why so grumpy?
If you feel the need to be grammer control, well then don't read message boards.
And if you are into personal attacks, then go find someone that will trade barbs with you.
So until then, change your pad, go get a drink and lose some of the prickness.

[swissvale72]

*The 3rd & 2 pass to Bell wasn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. It may not have led Brown, but it wasn't behind him. I just watched the tape again, and I think the DB makes the play regardless of where Vick put the ball.

Swiss......I'd have to see the play again...........
But in real time...I thought Vick hesitated in getting the ball to Bell...............thought I yelled "throw the ball already"...........which was too late as the DB saw the play unfolding and started to close.

It was definitely late coming out.

Vick gets the ball out on time...Bell has a chance to juke, avoid the hit, and fall forward for the extra yard and the first.

I watched it again last night. You watched it in between changing the reed on your clarinet. The throw wasn't late, and the DB that was closing was making that fuckin' play regardless of where the ball was thrown. He had a perfect angle.

[Legacy User]

I used to think swiss was the king of drivel and i still think there should be a drivel measurement in his honor......like

thats an entire swiss load of bs....or ...thats 2 and half swiss of drivel.....

but swiss is more like a hurricane of bs......doesnt happen all the time.....but when it does....HEAD FOR THE HILLS......weve got a 5 swiss load coming in hot

but i gotta say....i think 1 jeemie should equal 10 swiss on the drivometer...its just constant.....like living in an extreme weather environ.....constant weather hazzard 24 7 .....like the North Pole would be 100 jeemies in a years time of bad vibes slanted drivel

i might have to work on the parameters....100 swiss of drivel equals 1 jeemie....i will contemplate this and report my findings