How good of a coach is MIke Tomlin?

[Legacy User]

I believe a lot of the criticism he gets is because people mistake press conference blather for heart-baring confessions AND most have a view that's far too close to the picture to see what's really going on when viewed from slightly farther perspective.

No- the criticism he gets from me is because mistakes he made in 2007 he keeps making in 2015. Like, for example, in 2007 he tries to get a first down so he can run out the clock against Jacksonville with a Ben sweep, with no threat of a pass offered to slow the defense's rush. In 2015...he calls/signs off on pretty much the EXACT SAME PLAY with Michael Vick against Baltimore, with even slower receivers such as Villanueva on the field. And "I thought the timeout was more important than the 34 seconds" will go down in history, at least in my mind, as one of the dumbest things any head coach has ever said, press conference banter or no.

Yes- he's improved in some aspects, but in strategic/tactical aspects, he still has a LOOONG ways to go. And I don't think it's just "press conference banter" when he says he doesn't think about that kind of stuff- I see no reason to doubt he's being totally honest.

So again, you do agree with everyone who thinks the man is lucky to have a job , but just like to bust peoples balls because you like to argue. Way too much much off season left for me to get dragged into your silly games. Later

[jeemie]

So again, you do agree with everyone who thinks the man is lucky to have a job , but just like to bust peoples balls because you like to argue. Way too much much off season left for me to get dragged into your silly games. Later

No- I don't agree he's lucky to have a job because strategy/tactics aren't the end all/be all of being a head coach, and while he's not the best, he isn't so god-awful horrible at it that he has no business being on a football field.

And I also happen to not live in a bubble and watch closely a lot of other teams in this league and their coaches...they all have their own foibles and warts. Their collective good points and bad points taken together, very few of them are better than Mike Tomlin.

But you'll ignore this because you got your shot in, and any analysis above a simple caricature is too complex for you to reply to.

And I love the sudden praise you're giving to Ben Roethlisberger, whom you characterized with your usual cogent, in-depth, and deeply insightful analysis as doing nothing but "running around in the backfield, waiting for someone to get open". Amazing that sports networks and front offices aren't banging down your door offering you seven-figure salaries to provide more insights like that!

[Obviously]

I believe a lot of the criticism he gets is because people mistake press conference blather for heart-baring confessions AND most have a view that's far too close to the picture to see what's really going on when viewed from slightly farther perspective.

No- the criticism he gets from me is because mistakes he made in 2007 he keeps making in 2015. Like, for example, in 2007 he tries to get a first down so he can run out the clock against Jacksonville with a Ben sweep, with no threat of a pass offered to slow the defense's rush. In 2015...he calls/signs off on pretty much the EXACT SAME PLAY with Michael Vick against Baltimore, with even slower receivers such as Villanueva on the field. And "I thought the timeout was more important than the 34 seconds" will go down in history, at least in my mind, as one of the dumbest things any head coach has ever said, press conference banter or no.

Yes- he's improved in some aspects, but in strategic/tactical aspects, he still has a LOOONG ways to go. And I don't think it's just "press conference banter" when he says he doesn't think about that kind of stuff- I see no reason to doubt he's being totally honest.

It's really interesting that Jeemie and I have been critical of Tomlin, but in this thread, we're actually defending him against those who enjoy flying off the handle. However, now Jeemie is defending his stance with B2B. Only on Steelerfury!

[Legacy User]

I rip on Coach quite a bit as seen in my username, avatar and sig (no not the bouncing titties). Tomlin is top 5 IMO. Let's look at the upcoming schedule and compare him to each head coach the Steelers will face (my opinion, of course):

Week 1: Redskins - Jay Gruden (Tomlin better)
Week 2: Bengals - Marvin Lewis (Tomlin)
Week 3: Eagles - Doug Pederson (Tomlin)
Week 4: Chiefs - Andy Reid (Tomlin)
Week 5: Jets - Todd Bowles (Tomlin)
Week 6: Dolphins - Adam Gase (Tomlin)
Week 7: Patriots - Bill Belichick (Belichick)
Week 8: Bye
Week 9: Ravens - John Harbaugh (Harbaugh based on recent head-to-head competition)
Week 10: Cowboys - Jason Garrett (Tomlin)
Week 11: Browns - Hue Jackson (Tomlin)
Week 12: Colts - Chuck Pagano (Tomlin)
Week 13: Giants - Ben McAdoo (Tomlin)
Week 14: Bills - Rex Ryan (Tomlin)
Week 15: Bengals - Marvin Lewis (Tomlin)
Week 16: Ravens - John Harbaugh (Harbaugh)
Week 17: Browns - Hue Jackson (Tomlin)

Of the 13 coaches listed here, Tomlin is better than all but two. One of those two is Harbaugh, and I can see a case for Tomlin there. Tomlin is, at the very least, a Top 5 coach in today's NFL warts and all.

Well he ain't better than;
McCarthy
Carroll
Arians
Riviera
Payton
or Bye

And he's only EQUAL to Reid, Fisher, and Pacano not better

And I've got THREE VERY SPECIFIC reasons why.

Oh what a bunch of bull. Tomlin can TOTALLY out coach the bye week.

[Kodiak]

Of the 13 coaches listed here, Tomlin is better than all but two.

So you're predicting 14-2 for PIT? I will take the under, and then some....

Under this logic, Bill Belichick, who I think we all will agree is the consensus #1 (whether because he cheats or not) would go 16-0 every year.

Of course, Belicheat actually HAS gone 16-0, along with plenty of 13-14 win seasons. Tomlin has never managed better than 12 wins, with a HOF QB himself....so I reject the idea there has ever been only 3-4 teams on the schedule with better coaches.

1 playoff win in 5 years. Aren't we fucking lucky to have him.

[bradshaw2ben]

I believe a lot of the criticism he gets is because people mistake press conference blather for heart-baring confessions AND most have a view that's far too close to the picture to see what's really going on when viewed from slightly farther perspective.

No- the criticism he gets from me is because mistakes he made in 2007 he keeps making in 2015. Like, for example, in 2007 he tries to get a first down so he can run out the clock against Jacksonville with a Ben sweep, with no threat of a pass offered to slow the defense's rush. In 2015...he calls/signs off on pretty much the EXACT SAME PLAY with Michael Vick against Baltimore, with even slower receivers such as Villanueva on the field. And "I thought the timeout was more important than the 34 seconds" will go down in history, at least in my mind, as one of the dumbest things any head coach has ever said, press conference banter or no.

Yes- he's improved in some aspects, but in strategic/tactical aspects, he still has a LOOONG ways to go. And I don't think it's just "press conference banter" when he says he doesn't think about that kind of stuff- I see no reason to doubt he's being totally honest.

Once again Jeemie, you have no idea WHY the timeout was more important to him. It's not madden. The players and coaches are not computerized avatars. Perhaps he sensed a level of confusion amongst player or players who didn't have very many reps together. Maybe he reinforced that lesson at end of 2010 season.

Just trying to keep in mind that the decisions he makes take many more variables into account than we could possibly know. Maybe one reason players universally respect and praise him is that he is extremely good at weighing both the humanity of his team and the functional efficiency.

[randomsteelerfan]

I rip on Coach quite a bit as seen in my username, avatar and sig (no not the bouncing titties). Tomlin is top 5 IMO. Let's look at the upcoming schedule and compare him to each head coach the Steelers will face (my opinion, of course):

Week 1: Redskins - Jay Gruden (Tomlin better)
Week 2: Bengals - Marvin Lewis (Tomlin)
Week 3: Eagles - Doug Pederson (Tomlin)
Week 4: Chiefs - Andy Reid (Tomlin)
Week 5: Jets - Todd Bowles (Tomlin)
Week 6: Dolphins - Adam Gase (Tomlin)
Week 7: Patriots - Bill Belichick (Belichick)
Week 8: Bye
Week 9: Ravens - John Harbaugh (Harbaugh based on recent head-to-head competition)
Week 10: Cowboys - Jason Garrett (Tomlin)
Week 11: Browns - Hue Jackson (Tomlin)
Week 12: Colts - Chuck Pagano (Tomlin)
Week 13: Giants - Ben McAdoo (Tomlin)
Week 14: Bills - Rex Ryan (Tomlin)
Week 15: Bengals - Marvin Lewis (Tomlin)
Week 16: Ravens - John Harbaugh (Harbaugh)
Week 17: Browns - Hue Jackson (Tomlin)

Of the 13 coaches listed here, Tomlin is better than all but two. One of those two is Harbaugh, and I can see a case for Tomlin there. Tomlin is, at the very least, a Top 5 coach in today's NFL warts and all.

Well he ain't better than;
McCarthy
Carroll
Arians
Riviera
Payton
or Bye

And he's only EQUAL to Reid, Fisher, and Pacano not better

And I've got THREE VERY SPECIFIC reasons why.

At best it's debateable. In reality, these guys are all roughly equivalent. Some have obvious strengths/weaknesses that contrast with others, but overall, no one is head and shoulders above Tomlin or vice versa.

[randomsteelerfan]

I'll bite. Why should MT be fired now. If you're going to list clock management and aversion to analytics, don't bother responding. Otherwise, I'd truly like to hear why.

Yeah, lets have a discussion about why he should be fired, but you aren't allowed to talk about any of the things that makes him a mind boggling stupid "professional" head coach. Aside from anything that makes him look incompetent, lets discuss........I mean if you are going to mention his blank look into space when the clock is ticking away in crunch time until someone slaps him back to reality and he pulls out a gut call, which more often than not fails, then don't bother. Lets talk about how everyone likes him.

I simply said those two flaws aren't grounds for firing him and there's no point in him listing them since they have been pretty well documented.

[randomsteelerfan]

.I mean if you are going to mention his blank look into space when the clock is ticking away in crunch time until someone slaps him back to reality and he pulls out a gut call, which more often than not fails, then don't bother. Lets talk about how everyone likes him.

Can you provide video evidence of where he is blankly looking into space until someone slaps him into reality and then he makes a gut call?

Or are you just talking out your ass again?

And no I'm not defending his clock management, and yes he's had that blank stare (so do a lot of coaches when they're losing a game), but can we stop fucking exaggerating JUST ONCE?

I am expressing the same sentiment thousands of fans have and why he carries the moniker "potted plant". This didn't just happen yesterday. If you want to live in your own reality here at this site, then by all means, don't let me stand in the way of what makes you happy. We are extremely lucky to have Ben and talented coordinators and a once dominant defense, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. There have been enough bone headed coaching gaffes through the years from Tomlin that I do not need to rehash them here and now to you to prove some point. You know exactly what I am talking about.

Ben and talented coordinators? You are kidding, right? The guy has flaws, no doubt, as does every fucking coach. But, if you're going to take Tomlins entire body of work since day one and attribute the mans success to Ben and coordinators, then you aren't being genuine, honest or reasonable.

[Legacy User]

Hard to say for sure. I generally put Tomlin in the 3-8 range. He doesn't flat out suck. But he does have a big advantage with the steelers. If you took a below average coach and put him in Pittsburgh with implicit and long term support who knows? If you put Sean Payton on steelers, I think we could be dominant.

That said, 2008 really happened and it was a very good piece of coaching, and 2010 was even better for Tomlin in pure coaching terms. But he's been floundering for 6 years now.

I do agree the defense and lebeau held him back. If nothing else ever happens Tomlin will two sb appearances and one win. If he can figure out how to get one more piece of hardware that would put an end to this debate right quick.

[Kodiak]

I do agree the defense and lebeau held him back.

This is somewhat comical to say. I don't disagree with it, but would also point out Lebeau and Arians kind of led that team to 2 SB's while Tomlin was still getting his feet wet.

[jeemie]

It's really interesting that Jeemie and I have been critical of Tomlin, but in this thread, we're actually defending him against those who enjoy flying off the handle. However, now Jeemie is defending his stance with B2B. Only on Steelerfury!

Thought it seems contradictory of me to do this, it's not.

I berate Tomlin for his poor game management. I don't want him fired for it.

Hard to believe, but other coaches are worse at it than he is (hello, Andy Reid) and others are not as good at the other important coaching stuff.

[jeemie]

Once again Jeemie, you have no idea WHY the timeout was more important to him. It's not madden. The players and coaches are not computerized avatars. Perhaps he sensed a level of confusion amongst player or players who didn't have very many reps together. Maybe he reinforced that lesson at end of 2010 season.

Just trying to keep in mind that the decisions he makes take many more variables into account than we could possibly know. Maybe one reason players universally respect and praise him is that he is extremely good at weighing both the humanity of his team and the functional efficiency.

I don't need to know why. Sorry- but this was one of those times it was objectively clear what needed to be done.

When you're trailing and don't have the ball, saving as much time as possible is always...ALWAYS...the correct course of action. There are ways to stop the clock once you have the ball. There's only one way on defense.

Once those 38 seconds are gone, they're gone forever. Worry about possible confusion on offense later.

(I won't even go into the wonderful "fake spike and throw the ball to Bryant for a two yard gain" idiocy that happened on the potential drive to win the game. Although I suppose a call like that goes more to Haley than Tomlin).

[Legacy User]

I do agree the defense and lebeau held him back.

This is somewhat comical to say. I don't disagree with it, but would also point out Lebeau and Arians kind of led that team to 2 SB's while Tomlin was still getting his feet wet.

I'm of the opinion lebeau walked into an extremely favorable situation. Tomlin did too no doubt.

The real sign of skill is not just being successful when you're all set up for it, but making your own. That's where I think lebeau is lacking. And it's not with some personality defect or anything, its lebeau never had the desire to change, to try something new even if it meant he might fail.

And I think steelers are still feeling the effects of that. I think they'd be a lot farther ahead now if they weren't so confined to rebuilding the defense lebeaus way. I think in the end steelers truly 3-4 seasons over it.

Getting back to Tomlin next two years are truly sink or swim.

[randomsteelerfan]

I do agree the defense and lebeau held him back.

This is somewhat comical to say. I don't disagree with it, but would also point out Lebeau and Arians kind of led that team to 2 SB's while Tomlin was still getting his feet wet.

The problem I have with statements and sentiments like these is that, in reality, no one has any idea what Tomlin did or didn't bring to those 2 SB's. Maybe it was actually Tomlin that reignited whatever was needed after '05 for the return trips.

I have zero idea if you're pro/anti Tomlin, but it's funny how he gets all of the blame for failures and none of the credit for the success. Such is life for a HC, I guess.

[Gonzo]

By the logic utilised in this thread no coach can ever be criticised by fans - it's circular nonsense.

Tomlin is not a top 5 coach.

Player psychology or not there is no rationale for his TO horseshit explanation. But that is just one item and mistakes get made in and of itself it isn't that big of a deal. It's the general approach to certain situations that doesnt hange that IMO are the main issues.

But what do I know. Results are results and rhetoric is important - one playoff win in 5 years is just the cost of "rebuilding" around a franchise qb and should be ignored in light of an immediate trip to the SB on taking over.

Just injuries, bad coaching by assistants, poor drafting by others, bad owner, sun in his eyes, uncooperative qb, players getting suspended, poor signings by the FO ....

[bradshaw2ben]

If lets say one of your best players on D- the one who you can't line up without- has a shoulder injury hat could knock him out of he game for a play if he is injured UNLESS you have a TO... This is the kind of "insider"info I'm talking about.

I judge he man on what he's done with what he was vs the other guy. He's not only a top 5 coach now, he's probably a top 10-25 coach all time.

[swissvale72]

If lets say one of your best players on D- the one who you can't line up without- has a shoulder injury hat could knock him out of he game for a play if he is injured UNLESS you have a TO... This is the kind of "insider"info I'm talking about.

I judge he man on what he's done with what he was vs the other guy. He's not only a top 5 coach now, he's probably a top 10-25 coach all time.

Maybe 'cuz it's early and I've not yet had my coffee, B2B...but I'm not following the argument you just made. Please explain. That sequence against the Bengals was abysmal.

Top 10-25 of all time? Want to argue toward the top 10, you're off your fuckin' rocker. Wide range from 10 to 25 though.

[Gonzo]

I would agree then that he is top 10 of all time as who else has dealt with as Much incompetence all around him and been dragged down by hall of fame assistants and managed to almost get his teams to the playoffs. All while making ground breaking advances in football thought - realising time is of no consequence except when being wasted for no competitive advantage

Imagine number 1 of all time would be in his reach if he could just have some control over his team like drafting, hiring, extending, calling plays, time mgmt, general strategy. For now he will have to be happy with top ten ever in general bullshit, rhetorical nonsense and pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber if you will. Top 2 in amount of words used to say nothing

[swissvale72]

If lets say one of your best players on D- the one who you can't line up without- has a shoulder injury hat could knock him out of he game for a play if he is injured UNLESS you have a TO... This is the kind of "insider"info I'm talking about.

I judge he man on what he's done with what he was vs the other guy. He's not only a top 5 coach now, he's probably a top 10-25 coach all time.

Maybe 'cuz it's early and I've not yet had my coffee, B2B...but I'm not following the argument you just made. Please explain. That sequence against the Bengals was abysmal.

Top 10-25 of all time? Want to argue toward the top 10, you're off your fuckin' rocker. Wide range from 10 to 25 though.

I've had my coffee now, B2B....and....went back and reviewed the play-by-play of a game I've long placed in the recesses of my memory...and your take makes even less sense now!!

Bengals, up 3, picked off Ben with 2:44 left. After first down, Tomlin inexplicably let the clock run down to the two-minutes warning. He then used his first timeouts after 2nd & 3rd down. The hypothetical you advance would never have happened. Tomlin had all three timeouts to use to both stop the clock, and use in the case of this mythical injury to a defensive stalwart. Two points:
*As Jeems states, those 38 tics down to the two-minute timeout are forever lost.
*If one is to believe the post-game bullshit that Tomlin was spewing about saving a timeout for the upcoming offensive possession, the stupid ass minimally wasted 9 seconds by not using his two timeouts prior to the two-min. warning rather than following that stoppage.

And THAT, perhaps more than anything is the issue with Tomlin. He simply doesn't get, or refused to acknowledge the value of every tic on the clock, and for a guy that's big on defending every blade of grass, this is a gross oversight. Remember, that game came down to Steelers inside the Bengals 20....believe it was the 16, with four seconds left. We sure could have used an additional 9 seconds.....would have bought at least one more shot at the end zone, quite possibly two more plays.

[Obviously]

If lets say one of your best players on D- the one who you can't line up without- has a shoulder injury hat could knock him out of he game for a play if he is injured UNLESS you have a TO... This is the kind of "insider"info I'm talking about.

I judge he man on what he's done with what he was vs the other guy. He's not only a top 5 coach now, he's probably a top 10-25 coach all time.

Top 10, no.

Top 25? Maybe but only just.

[Legacy User]

He isn't.....

Comparisons are all essentially voided due to QB advantages

He lost to 53 clowns and Harbaugh masquerading as the Ravens last year. That's just not possible. That's the kind of expected bufoonery that occurs as the norm under Tomlin. It's what reduces playoff opportunities and wastes what is the ultimate advantage in this league, a great QB.

And he can't do math or tell time.....

[jeemie]

And THAT, perhaps more than anything is the issue with Tomlin. He simply doesn't get, or refused to acknowledge the value of every tic on the clock, and for a guy that's big on defending every blade of grass, this is a gross oversight. Remember, that game came down to Steelers inside the Bengals 20....believe it was the 16, with four seconds left. We sure could have used an additional 9 seconds.....would have bought at least one more shot at the end zone, quite possibly two more plays.

This was my biggest gripe.

We know the offense has trouble moving the ball effectively really fast. Therefore, when the Steelers were trailing, there is absolutely nothing that should take precedence over this thought "We are losing the game, and they have the ball, and will likely get a FG, requiring me to get a TD to win. I must save as much time as possible to come back".

Absolutely NOTHING else can take precedence over that thought. Any attempt to defend any alternative is just silly.

This was one of those rare times where it really was just that simple. One of those times where actually having and considering more information actually might CLOUD one's judgment.

The best head coaches know what the most important consideration is at any given moment. They understand the value of being prepared for such moments. That's why I quote Bill Walsh. He didn't wait until Sunday to prepare for such moments. He would never say...even as fodder for a bullshit press conference..."I don't take those things into account".

That's why I consider Mike Tomlin a good but not great coach...but yet still wouldn't trade him in right now because to be honest? I don't think highly of the coaching corps out there right now anyway. So relatively speaking, Tomlin is Super-Bowl caliber.

[Gonzo]

I do get that the ranks of coaching is often full of overly conservative "managers" full of more ego and bullshit then substance and creativity. But, I do hope for better from our coaching

i get that we will never get a full and honest answer to stuff after games . However, his statements and game tape do appear to reflect a coach that discounts what he considers to be minor aspects of the game and instead cares more about general approach and morale. Nuance and discipline take a back seat to swagger and scheme

[bradshaw2ben]

I think tomlin was number 12 in lifetime win pct or something like that. Not many guys are high in win pct, have a 100 wins, and have been to SB twice, winning at least one-- MT is headed there.

The arguments with the "Tomlin was so bad in this one game that he's terrible and should have been fired" are laughable. Would you cherry pick Ben's worst game or even worst season and use it as a reason they should waive him? Or even use it to explain how Ben is not a top 5 QB in the league? Get fuckin real.

[bradshaw2ben]

He isn't.....

Comparisons are all essentially voided due to QB advantages

He lost to 53 clowns and Harbaugh masquerading as the Ravens last year. That's just not possible. That's the kind of expected bufoonery that occurs as the norm under Tomlin. It's what reduces playoff opportunities and wastes what is the ultimate advantage in this league, a great QB.

And he can't do math or tell time.....

Don Shula never won a super bowl with Dan Marino. At one point, he had one playoff win in SIX YEARS. And no free agency!

Where's the QB advantage there?

[swissvale72]

I think tomlin was number 12 in lifetime win pct or something like that. Not many guys are high in win pct, have a 100 wins, and have been to SB twice, winning at least one-- MT is headed there.

The arguments with the "Tomlin was so bad in this one game that he's terrible and should have been fired" are laughable. Would you cherry pick Ben's worst game or even worst season and use it as a reason they should waive him? Or even use it to explain how Ben is not a top 5 QB in the league? Get fuckin real.

B2b....most of aren't saying that Tomlin should be fired for that game, just using it to demonstrate his persistent level of dumbfuckedness. You've yet to explain the dumbassery that you tried to pawn off in the pre-dawn hours this morning though...about saving the timeout lest there be a defensive injury. That continues to make zero fuckin' sense.

[jeemie]

I think tomlin was number 12 in lifetime win pct or something like that. Not many guys are high in win pct, have a 100 wins, and have been to SB twice, winning at least one-- MT is headed there.

The arguments with the "Tomlin was so bad in this one game that he's terrible and should have been fired" are laughable. Would you cherry pick Ben's worst game or even worst season and use it as a reason they should waive him? Or even use it to explain how Ben is not a top 5 QB in the league? Get fuckin real.

I'm not saying to fire him, but that's just one example...it's not just "one bad game".

[JackLambert58]

I think tomlin was number 12 in lifetime win pct or something like that. Not many guys are high in win pct, have a 100 wins, and have been to SB twice, winning at least one-- MT is headed there.

The arguments with the "Tomlin was so bad in this one game that he's terrible and should have been fired" are laughable. Would you cherry pick Ben's worst game or even worst season and use it as a reason they should waive him? Or even use it to explain how Ben is not a top 5 QB in the league? Get fuckin real.

I truly hope and pray he arrives there. I especially hope he is ready to take down Belichick hard this season. To be amongst the best you have to beat the best. He's only beaten Belichick once with Brady at QB.

[JackLambert58]

Too funny, I'm watching the Red Sox/Angels game at Fenway tonight and they show Mike Tomlin and his son in the crowd. Jerry Remy, Sox color commentator, makes the smart ass remark that he bets Tomlin likes it better at Fenway than he does at Gillette.