Peyton A Far Better Leader Than Ben

[Legacy User]

Leadership is about showing that you translated hard work into sustained success. Silent or vocal, when you've reached that point you've set a standard of self accountability for those following your lead as the pacesetter

[Legacy User]

So is the function of a leader simply to work hard such that one succeeds consistently? So if I work hard at stealing the other teams' plays and win consistently as a result, am I a leader? Or does it matter what I work hard at and what I succeed at?

And say a bit more about exactly what self accountability means. Clearly we mean that we take responsibility for our own actions and results, but why is that necessary for being a leader? (I'm not asking this as a challenge, btw, I'm interested in the explanation.)

[K_C_]

So Terrell Owens and Randy Moss must be leaders I guess. They worked hard and had sustained success.

Doesn't matter how "me first" they were and that they were team killers who never won dick.

They were leaders.

Uh huh.

Sure.

[Legacy User]

Sure, let's mince words in text to corner a pure definition.

We do know leadership is more than postgame hugs.

[K_C_]

Sure, let's mince words in text to corner a pure definition.

We do know leadership is more than postgame hugs.

Leadership is about bitching to the media and to your rookie QB who's playing great that you're not getting enough catches, while your team is in the middle of a long winning streak.



Hines Ward was one helluva leader!!

[Legacy User]

Sure, let's mince words in text to corner a pure definition.

We do know leadership is more than postgame hugs.

I am well aware you have a revulsion to bullshit. I'm not trying to mince words. My questions were honest. Not trying to back you into a corner. But the notion of just what a leader / leadership is, is interesting. The attempt to arrive at the perfect definition should be interesting. I would think you of all people would be super interested to explore it.

I think a leader has to have certain character qualities that leads him to work hard in certain ways and for certain goals. I wonder which ones. People can work very hard and succeed consistently at very nasty things, but we shudder to call these people leaders. I don't think that's mincing words, I think it's a crucial qualification. One you probably agree with.

[jeemie]

I think this is probably closest to what a team leader is- there have been articles (IC posted one) that showed players that exhibit the following can be classified as "leaders".

Team leaders are the strongest advocates for doing what needs to be done to secure the HC's vision for success...usually via showing as an example the hard work that is necessary to achieve that success.

Every player has a given level of talent- no one's potential is going to be completely realized unless they "go the extra mile".

If there are enough players on a team that "go that extra mile"- whether it's helping to coach up younger players, coming to practice early and staying late, showing a strong work ethic, etc, then those teams tend to be more successful than you might expect given their overall talent level. Teams lacking enough of these types of players tend to underachieve.

So player leaders lead by example- mostly by showing off a strong work ethic.

Learn your job and do it well.

Put in the hours.

Show up.

[Legacy User]

Setting aside work ethic, can you be otherwise of shoddy character and still be a leader?
For instance, a doctor who routinely runs over puppies of children for fun can still be a leader in medicine? So a football player who works hard, does his job, but also beats the occasional woman? Or do we insist that true leaders have to be high character guys?

[jeemie]

Setting aside work ethic, can you be otherwise of shoddy character and still be a leader?
For instance, a doctor who routinely runs over puppies of children for fun can still be a leader in medicine? So a football player who works hard, does his job, but also beats the occasional woman? Or do we insist that true leaders have to be high character guys?

I don't believe that you can compartmentalize like that.

I think if someone has the strong work ethic and a team focus, IN GENERAL, will have those aspects of his character bleed over into he rest of his life.

So that, IN GENERAL, team-focused, hard-working individuals tend to be people of "better character".

[K_C_]

THIS is how you show "leadership."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2009/11/hines-ward-steelers-locker-room-split-50-50-on-whether-ben-roethlisberger-should-have-played/1#.U-DeOlb89s4

[Legacy User]

I don't think football is in anyway typical of life.

In football, if you aren't in jail you can be a leader. Ray Lewis. Michael Irvin. Joey Porter. I could go on...but I think these three are all undisputed team leaders of SB winners with a whole lot of antisocial going on.

[jeemie]

I don't think football is in anyway typical of life.

In football, if you aren't in jail you can be a leader. Ray Lewis. Michael Irvin. Joey Porter. I could go on...but I think these three are all undisputed team leaders of SB winners with a whole lot of antisocial going on.

They were vocal leaders.

I question how much they were actual leaders.

I don't believe in the "rah rah" shit.

But that's just me.

[Legacy User]

Setting aside work ethic, can you be otherwise of shoddy character and still be a leader?
For instance, a doctor who routinely runs over puppies of children for fun can still be a leader in medicine? So a football player who works hard, does his job, but also beats the occasional woman? Or do we insist that true leaders have to be high character guys?

I don't believe that you can compartmentalize like that.

I think if someone has the strong work ethic and a team focus, IN GENERAL, will have those aspects of his character bleed over into he rest of his life.

So that, IN GENERAL, team-focused, hard-working individuals tend to be people of "better character".

I really like the flavor of this post. Character will cut across different spheres of activity. But do you really think being football team focused and a diligent, tireless worker is mutually exclusive with being rather unjust in arenas other than football? It is true that generally this is probably the case, but do you have to be a good person to be a good leader on a football team?

[Legacy User]

I don't think football is in anyway typical of life.

In football, if you aren't in jail you can be a leader. Ray Lewis. Michael Irvin. Joey Porter. I could go on...but I think these three are all undisputed team leaders of SB winners with a whole lot of antisocial going on.

I'm glad to hear that Pouncey is again a leader on this team, then.

[jeemie]

Setting aside work ethic, can you be otherwise of shoddy character and still be a leader?
For instance, a doctor who routinely runs over puppies of children for fun can still be a leader in medicine? So a football player who works hard, does his job, but also beats the occasional woman? Or do we insist that true leaders have to be high character guys?

I don't believe that you can compartmentalize like that.

I think if someone has the strong work ethic and a team focus, IN GENERAL, will have those aspects of his character bleed over into he rest of his life.

So that, IN GENERAL, team-focused, hard-working individuals tend to be people of "better character".

I really like the flavor of this post. Character will cut across different spheres of activity. But do you really think being football team focused and a diligent, tireless worker is mutually exclusive with being rather unjust in arenas other than football? It is true that generally this is probably the case, but do you have to be a good person to be a good leader on a football team?

I wouldn't say a person that is a "bad apple" in the public's eye can't be a team leader.

[Legacy User]

Back to square one then. Let's try this:
1. What is the function of a leader?
2. What qualities must a person possess to carry out that function with excellence?

[Legacy User]

Back to square one then. Let's try this:
1. What is the function of a leader?
2. What qualities must a person possess to carry out that function with excellence?

First thing to realize is football has zero relationship to real life. Every snap is actually multiple counts of aggravated assault in real life.

1. To make sure the team competes at it's highest level.

2. Work ethic, balls, and a large streak of adrenalin based sadism. Loud mouth preferred, but not required.

[V DUB]

Leadership, to me, is how much of yourself you're willing too sacrifice too achieve a common goal.

It's also defending those helping too achieve that goal...along with motivation when the goal seems unattainable.

That's my definition, anyway.

[Legacy User]

Setting aside work ethic, can you be otherwise of shoddy character and still be a leader?

No, they can't. People have to want to follow you.

Before that goes any further nobody here knows the amount of respect players have for each other. But we can see who emerges as leaders on the field. So no matter how many links every bookstore clerk in America can post to say otherwise, it doesn't change that fact

[lifelongsteel]

The field doesn't really matter. You need a good mix of these attributes:

1) Complete, unwavering commitment to the goal
2) Giving the proverbial 110% toward the goal
3) Having enough talent/skill to help accomplish the goal
4) Having the proverbial "it" quality
5) Winning personality - optimistic; seeking every day improvement

[K_C_]

I think Ward showed a lot if leadership when he called Ben's ridiculous suspension "justified", right jizz mopper?

[lifelongsteel]

Did I accidentally open up a Cotch vs. Sanders thread?

[K_C_]

Did I accidentally open up a Cotch vs. Sanders thread?

Who mentioned Sanders or Cotch (Ben called Cotchery and Heath Miller the 2 best teammates he's ever played with. His work ethic and character are off the charts.)

I was talking about "me first" players like Hines Ward.

Ward was a great player, but he was as "me first" as a human could possibly be.

It's fucking laughable for him to be considered a leader.

[Legacy User]

I think Ward showed a lot if leadership when he called Ben's ridiculous suspension "justified", right jizz mopper?

I'm not really a "KC" supporter, but in this case, even though I respect Mr. Ward, fully agree he really undercut Ben's leadership on many occasions.

Even the pouting when Ben innocently said he'd like to throw to a taller receiver. Now both "short guys" Tone and Ward won SB MVP's, but I still would've loved to have seen Plex and Ben play their entire careers together.

[lifelongsteel]

Did I accidentally open up a Cotch vs. Sanders thread?

Who mentioned Sanders or Cotch (Ben called Cotchery and Heath Miller the 2 best teammates he's ever played with. His work ethic and character are off the charts.)

I was talking about "me first" players like Hines Ward.

Ward was a great player, but he was as "me first" as a human could possibly be.

It's fucking laughable for him to be considered a leader.

I wasn't referring to content, I was referring to the insult, usually found in a cotch/sanders thread. I know to avoid those because of this type of B.S., was surprised to read it here.

[K_C_]

The insults always start with the frustrated, pretend internet football coach/film projector reel changer.

He gets mad when the dumb shit he says gets challenged.

[Legacy User]

I think Ward showed a lot if leadership when he called Ben's ridiculous suspension "justified", right jizz mopper?

You probably have extra time to dig up worthless media articles with your failing library asst career and all, but in hindsight I would've suspended him too. While you spend your days mastering the Dewey decimal system, his teammates spend time with him and around that time I recall reading (sorry not from your library) something about Charlie Batcb having to sit him down and put him in check for a minute

[K_C_]

I think Ward showed a lot if leadership when he called Ben's ridiculous suspension "justified", right jizz mopper?

You probably have extra time to dig up worthless media articles with your failing library asst career and all, but in hindsight I would've suspended him too. While you spend your days mastering the Dewey decimal system, his teammates spend time with him and around that time I recall reading (sorry not from your library) something about Charlie Batcb having to sit him down and put him in check for a minute

Clean up on aisle 5, jizz mopper!

Your stupid ass is defending Ward saying Ben's then 6 game suspension was "justified?"

Par for your retard level course.

Yep, you definitely are a leader in the field of semen removal.

[Legacy User]

in general.

Now it's officially football season.

[zeke5123]

Setting aside work ethic, can you be otherwise of shoddy character and still be a leader?

No, they can't. People have to want to follow you.

Before that goes any further nobody here knows the amount of respect players have for each other. But we can see who emerges as leaders on the field. So no matter how many links every bookstore clerk in America can post to say otherwise, it doesn't change that fact

There are of course two inconsistent statements. The first is that in order to (a) be a leader, teammates must (b) want to follow you and therefore (c) need to respect you. (d) However, we do not know how much the players respect each other. This should lead to a conclusion that we cannot know who leaders are because we cannot know one of the predicates to leadership.

Of course, you then somehow claim we know leadership by what happens on the field. Is that because players respect those who do well? Of course, you've already rejected that premise by saying leaders must be high quality persons AND that playing well is not the same thing as high character. So, you must believe that somehow character is fully reflected in how some guys play on Sunday. Maybe, but that seems really specious AND doesn't mean that the other guys respect that player.

In the end, I think your first thought was correct. That is, we don't know which players are leaders. But as a result, admitting that kills your shtick so you won't.