Game 145: Pirates vs. Cubs

[Legacy User]

Why the fuck do I let Clint Hurdle piss me off like this?

I can't control what he does...I know he'll never change.

But he just gets my gall like a MOTHER FUCKER!!!

When you're playing the best, FUCKING USE YOUR BEST!!!!

JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST!!!!

stop whining..your not a real fan or u would love the lineup and every move management makes. only real fans care and understand the brilliant decisions we watch every game. to disagree is unpatriotic and horrible fan behavior. just smile and cheer!!

[Legacy User]

111 pitches, when it should have been 118, Lester is 10-10. And we suck!

[Legacy User]

Bam-Bam, your kidding!

[jeemie]

Why the fuck do I let Clint Hurdle piss me off like this?

I can't control what he does...I know he'll never change.

But he just gets my gall like a MOTHER FUCKER!!!

When you're playing the best, FUCKING USE YOUR BEST!!!!

JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST!!!!

Yeah but two of Clint's best hitters just screwed the pooch swinging at the first pitch.

I know.

I know the odds are good we would have gotten the exact same result had we used our best offensive lineup because Lester has been pitching real well lately.

But for once can we FIND OUT?!?!?!?

[Obviously]

Where's the Oracle of Steelerfury, steel? He's never around when the Bucs lose. Maybe he's at the library reading books!

[Legacy User]

Where's the Oracle of Steelerfury, steel? He's never around when the Bucs lose. Maybe he's at the library reading books!

One he might want to read is by Dale Carnegie entitled "How to Win Friends & Influence People."

[Legacy User]

Why the fuck do I let Clint Hurdle piss me off like this?

I can't control what he does...I know he'll never change.

But he just gets my gall like a MOTHER FUCKER!!!

When you're playing the best, FUCKING USE YOUR BEST!!!!

JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST!!!!

Yeah but two of Clint's best hitters just screwed the pooch swinging at the first pitch.

I know.

I know the odds are good we would have gotten the exact same result had we used our best offensive lineup because Lester has been pitching real well lately.

But for once can we FIND OUT?!?!?!?

Pirate's announcers are already talking up the conflict Maddon may have about starting Lester vs. Arietta in the Roulette Game if the Pirates should get to Arietta tomorrow night. Hurdle is fattening up the Cubs for the slaughter.

[SteelPro]

Why the fuck do I let Clint Hurdle piss me off like this?

I can't control what he does...I know he'll never change.

But he just gets my gall like a MOTHER FUCKER!!!

When you're playing the best, FUCKING USE YOUR BEST!!!!

JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST!!!!

Yeah but two of Clint's best hitters just screwed the pooch swinging at the first pitch.

They screwed the pooch by not squaring up those pitches. I have no issues with a guy that has finished top 3 in the MVP vote 3 straight years swinging at a 1st pitch fastball. I have no problem with a guy that has almost 400 career home runs swinging at a pitch that is middle middle.

[Legacy User]

maybe brew crew can bail us out! what pisses me most is this series is a chance to end cubs chances of catching pirates! sweep them and they are 8 back with like 15 remaining.. then fucking rest guys if cards are outta reach.. your 2 back of 1st place team..go for a win every game.. who wants to roll dice in wild card one and done with division so close.. play your best! theres plenty of rest days in playoffs for travel and tv schedules!

[jeemie]

Pirate's announcers are already talking up the conflict Maddon may have about starting Lester vs. Arietta in the Roulette Game if the Pirates should get to Arietta tomorrow night. Hurdle is fattening up the Cubs for the slaughter.

The Pirate announcers are measuring Joe Maddon against the Clint Hurdle stick.

Joe Maddon is not that dumb.

I imagine what Joe Maddon might do if he ever gets a team as deep as the Pirates are...I get envious.

[SteelPro]

Pirate's announcers are already talking up the conflict Maddon may have about starting Lester vs. Arietta in the Roulette Game if the Pirates should get to Arietta tomorrow night. Hurdle is fattening up the Cubs for the slaughter.

The Pirate announcers are measuring Joe Maddon against the Clint Hurdle stick.

Joe Maddon is not that dumb.

I imagine what Joe Maddon might do if he ever gets a team as deep as the Pirates are...I get envious.

I imagine your head would explode if Hurdle wrote a lineup with the pitcher hitting 8th.

[Legacy User]

The Pirate announcers are measuring Joe Maddon against the Clint Hurdle stick.
Joe Maddon is not that dumb.
I imagine what Joe Maddon might do if he ever gets a team as deep as the Pirates are...I get envious.

After the Cubs spend the money that Nutting won't this off season, you won't have to imagine.
The only saving grace is that MAYBE the Cubs and Cardinals will beat up each other more frequently.
One thing for sure -- The Pirates days of losing games to the likes of the Reds & Brewers more often than not had better cease next season.

[jeemie]

I imagine your head would explode if Hurdle wrote a lineup with the pitcher hitting 8th.

Amazingly, I don't have a huge problem with the pitcher batting 8th.

I'm not sure I agree with why certain managers do it, but at least there's a logic to it.

There is no logic to starting both Sean Rodriguez and Pedro Florimon in a game against a division rival with whom you're battling for playoff position...compounded by the fact that the next night, their shutdown ace is going.

NO logic at ALL.

[Legacy User]

Pirate's announcers are already talking up the conflict Maddon may have about starting Lester vs. Arietta in the Roulette Game if the Pirates should get to Arietta tomorrow night. Hurdle is fattening up the Cubs for the slaughter.

The Pirate announcers are measuring Joe Maddon against the Clint Hurdle stick.

Joe Maddon is not that dumb.

I imagine what Joe Maddon might do if he ever gets a team as deep as the Pirates are...I get envious.

I imagine your head would explode if Hurdle wrote a lineup with the pitcher hitting 8th.

To be fair here to everyone, Lester pitched a gutty game tonight. So, too, did Happy.
Problem is, you really can't put your defensive replacements (Serpico and Florimon) into the game and seriously expect them to beat Lester.
When you do that, you are giving away possibly 6 outs in the game if each bats 3 times. That is more help than Lester needs to receive in a consequential game.
This would be a consequential game, I think.

[Legacy User]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

[jeemie]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

I don't like stupid.

And stupid happens with Clint Hurdle too often.

In a division that will be decided by a couple of games, even stupid that appears a few times can make the difference, and so therefore is too often.

Tell me you believe inserting two late-inning defensive substitutes into the starting lineup was a good idea.

[Jobu]

Where's the Oracle of Steelerfury, steel? He's never around when the Bucs lose. Maybe he's at the library reading books!

It's a school night.

[SteelPro]

To be fair here to everyone, Lester pitched a gutty game tonight. So, too, did Happy.
Problem is, you really can't put your defensive replacements (Serpico and Florimon) into the game and seriously expect them to beat Lester.
When you do that, you are giving away possibly 6 outs in the game if each bats 3 times. That is more help than Lester needs to receive in a consequential game.
This would be a consequential game, I think.

Serpico has seen Lester far more than any other Pirate and has far more success against him than most. Not only was it not a terrible decision, it was absolutely the right play. Now playing Florimon was an odd decision, but even with him in there 1 thru 7 was a fine lineup and you knew Florimon wasn't going to get more than 2 ABs anyway. It wasn't a bad lineup. I can't justify Kang not starting in this game though.

[Jobu]

Pirate's announcers are already talking up the conflict Maddon may have about starting Lester vs. Arietta in the Roulette Game if the Pirates should get to Arietta tomorrow night. Hurdle is fattening up the Cubs for the slaughter.

The Pirate announcers are measuring Joe Maddon against the Clint Hurdle stick.

Joe Maddon is not that dumb.

I imagine what Joe Maddon might do if he ever gets a team as deep as the Pirates are...I get envious.

I imagine your head would explode if Hurdle wrote a lineup with the pitcher hitting 8th.

Didn't Hurdle do that for a while a few seasons ago..or was that Russell?

[Legacy User]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

I don't like stupid.

And stupid happens with Clint Hurdle too often.

In a division that will be decided by a couple of games, even stupid that appears a few times can make the difference, and so therefore is too often.

Tell me you believe inserting two late-inning defensive substitutes into the starting lineup was a good idea.

exactly...bucs are 2 back of cards after 143 games...that's a tiny margin for error. shitting away tight games with sub par players matters! do I want kang getting 4 at bats or flourman getting 4? hmmm tough choice. do I want serpico or polonco? I go with the best almost every night. one hit tonight in right spot matters!! despite what some here believe! for instants tonight; whos to say polonco doesn't gun down the cub scoring in 1st inning?? or the guy even test him? they don't score..its still 1-1..best players should be playing everyday. my word how did that cal ripkin ever play everyday without multiple days off a week? this team just had an off day Monday!

[jeemie]

Serpico has seen Lester far more than any other Pirate and has far more success against him than most. Not only was it not a terrible decision, it was absolutely the right play. Now playing Florimon was an odd decision, but even with him in there 1 thru 7 was a fine lineup and you knew Florimon wasn't going to get more than 2 ABs anyway. It wasn't a bad lineup. I can't justify Kang not starting in this game though.

Serpico had a .774 OPS against him in 33 AB...not horrible, but not great.

Sorry, Pro- I disagree- you have to go down with your best. Serpico is not our best.

I will grant it's quite likely Lester pitches that well against our normal lineup too, but tonight's lineup was a bad lineup. You won't see a single other Major League manager sub-optimizing his lineup like that in the heat of a pennant race against a rival.

Even if you just want to quibble that Florimon was the only puzzling move...that enough qualified as a colossally stupid decision.

You convinced me I was wrong about the lineup for the day game.

You will never convince me that this was a good decision by Clint Hurdle. It wasn't even close to a good decision. It was mind-bogglingly dumb.

[Legacy User]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

I'll say this for Mean Joe Greene. He is a wonderful poster and a fine person.
He and I don't always agree, but I appreciate his unwavering support for his team and his manager.
I believe he respects what I think even if he doesn't always agree with it because he knows I'm rooting for my team as I always have and always will.
I prefer to say what I think is true and not what I blindly wish would be true. I hope I'm wrong, but until the Pirates win a division title they are under suspicion.

I respect your loyalty to the Pirates, but I don't respect the way you conduct yourself when it comes to treating people with differing opinions.
I would say more but in so doing I might resort to your level and I really don't wish to embarrass myself to that extent at this time.

[Legacy User]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

I'll say this for Mean Joe Greene. He is a wonderful poster and a fine person.
He and I don't always agree, but I appreciate his unwavering support for his team and his manager.
I believe he respects what I think even if he doesn't always agree with it because he knows I'm rooting for my team as I always have and always will.
I prefer to say what I think is true and not what I blindly wish would be true. I hope I'm wrong, but until the Pirates win a division title they are under suspicion.

I respect your loyalty to the Pirates, but I don't respect the way you conduct yourself when it comes to treating people with differing opinions.
I would say more but in so doing I might resort to your level and I really don't wish to embarrass myself to that extent at this time.

exactly... be like steelers sitting bell at running back on a critical play/series in game in favor of archer; and no one allowed to complain when he doesn't perform.

[JackLambert58]

Why the fuck do I let Clint Hurdle piss me off like this?

I can't control what he does...I know he'll never change.

But he just gets my gall like a MOTHER FUCKER!!!

When you're playing the best, FUCKING USE YOUR BEST!!!!

JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST!!!!

Yeah but two of Clint's best hitters just screwed the pooch swinging at the first pitch.

They screwed the pooch by not squaring up those pitches. I have no issues with a guy that has finished top 3 in the MVP vote 3 straight years swinging at a 1st pitch fastball. I have no problem with a guy that has almost 400 career home runs swinging at a pitch that is middle middle.

Yeah maybe it's me. Lester was into the 90's on pitch count. Might want to work the count just a wee bit just one run behind in the ninth?

[Legacy User]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

I'll say this for Mean Joe Greene. He is a wonderful poster and a fine person.
He and I don't always agree, but I appreciate his unwavering support for his team and his manager.
I believe he respects what I think even if he doesn't always agree with it because he knows I'm rooting for my team as I always have and always will.
I prefer to say what I think is true and not what I blindly wish would be true. I hope I'm wrong, but until the Pirates win a division title they are under suspicion.

I respect your loyalty to the Pirates, but I don't respect the way you conduct yourself when it comes to treating people with differing opinions.
I would say more but in so doing I might resort to your level and I really don't wish to embarrass myself to that extent at this time.

exactly... be like steelers sitting bell at running back on a critical play/series in game in favor of archer; and no one allowed to complain when he doesn't perform.

FWIW, I appreciate your contributions Bam. We should all be able to say what we believe without someone trying to intimidate us into being silent.
I don't come on here to troll or root for anyone but the Pirates. I say what I believe whether it is right or not, whether you agree with it or not.
Me being critical isn't going to hurt the Pirates. I don't have that power.
Others being blindly loyal to the Pirates isn't going to propel them to a title. They don't have that power.

[SteelPro]

Serpico has seen Lester far more than any other Pirate and has far more success against him than most. Not only was it not a terrible decision, it was absolutely the right play. Now playing Florimon was an odd decision, but even with him in there 1 thru 7 was a fine lineup and you knew Florimon wasn't going to get more than 2 ABs anyway. It wasn't a bad lineup. I can't justify Kang not starting in this game though.

Serpico had a .774 OPS against him in 33 AB...not horrible, but not great.

Sorry, Pro- I disagree- you have to go down with your best. Serpico is not our best.

I will grant it's quite likely Lester pitches that well against our normal lineup too, but tonight's lineup was a bad lineup. You won't see a single other Major League manager sub-optimizing his lineup like that in the heat of a pennant race against a rival.

Even if you just want to quibble that Florimon was the only puzzling move...that enough qualified as a colossally stupid decision.

You convinced me I was wrong about the lineup for the day game.

You will never convince me that this was a good decision by Clint Hurdle. It wasn't even close to a good decision. It was mind-bogglingly dumb.

It is actually .849.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play- ... =rodrise01

Remind me again what Polanco's splits are against left handers? .188 career average

Remind me again how Rodriguez has hit recently? 13 for 27 (.481) over the last 4 weeks


You know who else was absent from this game? Kyle Schwarber. You are nuts if you think other managers don't do this. They all do it. It is called playing match ups.

[Legacy User]

and in what world does kang not match up better then flourman or mercer?

[SteelPro]

and in what world does kang not match up better then flourman or mercer?

I already said I don't get, nor agree with Kang getting the game off. Not sure why he did that but I will say that would never have happened if this wasn't a double header. People bitch about Hurdle following the metrics the team is using for optimal rest and lineup construction as if he is cooking the numbers himself. These guidelines are coming from a highly touted and well staffed analytics department that have researched the shit out of this stuff.

[Legacy User]

and in what world does kang not match up better then flourman or mercer?

I already said I don't get, nor agree with Kang getting the game off. Not sure why he did that but I will say that would never have happened if this wasn't a double header. People bitch about Hurdle following the metrics the team is using for optimal rest and lineup construction as if he is cooking the numbers himself. These guidelines are coming from a highly touted and well staffed analytics department that have researched the shit out of this stuff.

Pro, spreadsheets and spray charts are here to stay, as are the cookbooks used by managers for the past two decades.

I don't like that nearly as much as you seem to like it, but to each his own I guess.
My personal view is that all these analytical tools are over used by managers to cover their asses when their decisions fail to work.

If Cole stayed in the game and Russell hit a 3 run bomb reporters would ask Hurdle why he kept his Ace in the game after 3 straight hard hit balls and 100+ pitches in 6+ innings of work. Hurdle would say it was his gut decision. Yet, when Soria was brought into the game and he gave up 2 wild pitches to plate 2 runs nobody would have questioned Hurdle's decision to replace Cole because 6-1-1-1 has become the Holy Grail.

Maybe we should just quit playing games altogether and simply allow stat people at some point to just load data into a simulator and tell us how the game unfolded.

[Legacy User]

Did you guys sync up your periods on purpose, or did it just happen by chance?

I'll say this for Mean Joe Greene. He is a wonderful poster and a fine person.
He and I don't always agree, but I appreciate his unwavering support for his team and his manager.
I believe he respects what I think even if he doesn't always agree with it because he knows I'm rooting for my team as I always have and always will.
I prefer to say what I think is true and not what I blindly wish would be true. I hope I'm wrong, but until the Pirates win a division title they are under suspicion.

I respect your loyalty to the Pirates, but I don't respect the way you conduct yourself when it comes to treating people with differing opinions.
I would say more but in so doing I might resort to your level and I really don't wish to embarrass myself to that extent at this time.

Really I should just not read/participate in these threads where on the first page it is clear the whining is already in full force.

Being critical when Locke is left out there vs. St. Louis is one thing, and I was critical of that decision. But the every day every game bitching about the guy who manages one of the BEST TEAMS IN BASEBALL is ridiculous. That's not directed at you per se, Bling.

What is it that you think is true, Bling? What is so suspicious? The truth is that the Pirates are as much a contender as anyone and have a good chance for the best record in baseball this season. Does Hurdle get any credit for that, or just the blame for everything that doesn't go our way?