2016 MLB Trade Deadline Talk

[Legacy User]

complete trade

Blue Jays ‏@BlueJays · 9m9 minutes ago

The @BlueJays acquire LHP Francisco Liriano, C Reese McGuire & OF Harold Ramirez from @Pirates for Drew Hutchison.

[Legacy User]

complete trade

Blue Jays ‏@BlueJays · 9m9 minutes ago

The @BlueJays acquire LHP Francisco Liriano, C Reese McGuire & OF Harold Ramirez from @Pirates for Drew Hutchison.

Greek, my friend, I'm happy for you. You have a football team and a baseball team that are truly all in to win.
Some teams package stud prospects like McGuire & Ramirez with a player to get a better player.
The Pirates put more $ into the Nut's wallet, which would be ok if they'd spend it...prediction --- they won't.

[SteelPro]

No defending this. I wasn't real high on Ramirez or McGuire but they were worth more than pieces to pay down sunk salary costs. After what transpired today the team is no better short term, mid term, or long term This was awful work by the front office.

[Legacy User]

No defending this. I wasn't real high on Ramirez or McGuire but they were worth more than pieces to pay down sunk salary costs. After what transpired today the team is no better short term, mid term, or long term This was awful work by the front office.

Pro, I really don't mind losing Ramirez because the outfield is set, especially with Austin Meadows being fast tracked.
Extending Cervelli and having Steward/Diaz softens the blow losing McGuire.

My beef, and yours, is that these chips weren't packaged to make the team better. They were inducements to cut Frankie's salary. Frankie's performance made this trade more politically correct, but the Jays are getting 2 prospects for 1 with a high-priced Frankie who could possibly become good Frankie again.

Those of you who honestly think Nutting is saving this money to spend later on players....refer to my avatar.

I'm just grateful Austin Meadows wasn't traded...then again, we haven't seen who went to the Yanks for AVON, I mean Nova.
Actually, I think Meadows will be kept because dumping Cutch's salary can't be that far away, can it?

[Legacy User]

complete trade

Blue Jays ‏@BlueJays · 9m9 minutes ago

The @BlueJays acquire LHP Francisco Liriano, C Reese McGuire & OF Harold Ramirez from @Pirates for Drew Hutchison.

Greek, my friend, I'm happy for you. You have a football team and a baseball team that are truly all in to win.
Some teams package stud prospects like McGuire & Ramirez with a player to get a better player.
The Pirates put more $ into the Nut's wallet, which would be ok if they'd spend it...prediction --- they won't.

Bling my friend, good to hear from you. I have my own issues with Toronto ownership as well that I wont get into here. I will say this for you and your pirates, I've always liked Drew Hutchison. I think pirates fans are gonna like him as well, the kid can pitch and hes a bulldog of a competitor on the mound.

[Jobu]

complete trade

Blue Jays ‏@BlueJays · 9m9 minutes ago

The @BlueJays acquire LHP Francisco Liriano, C Reese McGuire & OF Harold Ramirez from @Pirates for Drew Hutchison.

I...I...I...

[Jobu]

Niese for Bastardo. Essentially Neil Walker for Antonio Bastardo.

Should've demanded Walker back.

[JackLambert58]

Who are these players to be named later for Nova? Can someone explain to me how any of these deals bolstered the Pirates? I understand salary dumps in Liriano's and Neise's cases, but these are treading in water deals to me, not help this year lol

Just my .02 but ill predict right now you guys are gonna end up really liking Drew Hutchison. New regime this season in Toronto and Hutchison found himself on the outside of the staff. Kid can pitch.

Hutchinson was the deal I liked the most.

Bastardo for Niese is a steal, especially since the Mets are picking up $6.5 M towards his salary next year.

Nova. Meh!

I don't hate these trades, and they saved some money.

Now...fucking SPEND it next year, and I'll be happier.

Niese and Liriano are out of Pittsburgh. I like that very much.

However, I agree that none of these trades, including the Melancon trade, make the Pirates better. Another Searage project in Nova I guess.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

This is the kind of trade that loses gobs and gobs of fans. Not unexpected. Best FA in baseball.



Do you fucking dumbasses get it now?

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

This is Bobby Hill/Aramis Ramirez level ineptitude.

[SteelPro]

If Bob Nutting did order Neal Huntington to dump salary he should fire him for doing such a terrible job at it.

[JackLambert58]

Never fear on the rotation! Locke and Vogelsong are returning!

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/192832134 ... ucs-staff/

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Pirates got rid of, what? 35 million dollars in salary? (I know it's prorated for the rest of the season defenders, it's not a defense).

All they had to do was get rid of 2 top 10 prospects and one of the best closers in baseball!!




Where do you think that money will go next year?

In the wallet of good ol' Bob Nutting.

Pirates trade:

All-star closer
#2 starter who was having a rough year
2 top 10 prospects

Pirates receive:
Middle reliever
AAA starter
Moderate prospect

[Legacy User]

Absolutely pityful. I've tried giving this front office the benefit of the doubt. No more. These are the types of moves a team makes trying to get a playoff berth? LMAO

[Legacy User]

Never fear on the rotation! Locke and Vogelsong are returning!

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/192832134 ... ucs-staff/

Fanfuckingtastic! Look out Cubbies, here we come!!!

[Gonzo]

Wow
Wow
Wow

its not the salary dump
It's the shitty returns and the lengths they went to dump cash - giving up their 9 and 10th ranked prospects!!!!!

They won't spend the saved money

They are gong to dump cutch in the off season next and go full on young and cheap.
I am going to sleep on this but am really close to finally pulling the plug on rooting for these greedy assholes after 45 years if it. I am dumb-struck.

This was an awful two days

[Legacy User]

Wow
Wow
Wow

its not the salary dump
It's the shitty returns and the lengths they went to dump cash - giving up their 9 and 10th ranked prospects!!!!!

They won't spend the saved money

They are gong to dump cutch in the off season next and go full on young and cheap.
I am going to sleep on this but am really close to finally pulling the plug on rooting for these greedy assholes after 45 years if it. I am dumb-struck.

This was an awful two days

pretty much my thoughts!!! why not dump cutch now too..i mean why not? bring up some rooks for live mlb action!!! same old shit; different year!!!

[Legacy User]

I wonder who they get rid of if they were waiving white flag? amazing to hear the spin..

[Jobu]

As long as Bob Fuckhead Nutting is running this ball club, and he's going to own it for a long, long, long, long, long time, it will always be about money first. Winning, especially winning a championship, will be in the backseat. I can't criticize Huntington, because he's working with his hands tied behind his back. He's tasked with building a winning ballclub, while lining Fuckheads pockets. Let's not forget that it was NH that was the man mainly responsible for building the club that ended two decades of shit.
It seems that they are now in the process of breaking down that club, and starting over...at the orders of Fuckhead Nutting himself, I'm sure.
Regardless, it's ridiculous. I don't know if I want to laugh...or bounce my head off a wall!

[Legacy User]

If Bob Nutting did order Neal Huntington to dump salary he should fire him for doing such a terrible job at it.

Where I agree with you is that this clearly spotlights Nutting for who he is. I'm sure the Nut doesn't like that aspect of these deals. NH should have had a "Gentlemen's agreement" with the Jays to do the deal even up (player for player), with Ramirez & McGuire to follow later (maybe the off season) for a couple of A-level flame throwers or such. You know, like the MM deal.

Where we part company is that NH did a very effective job of dumping payroll as I'm quite certain he was mandated to do. I'll go full on conspiracy theory -- poor off season leads to mediocre record by end of July which justifies cutting that payroll to the bone after the fans have patronized all but the final two months of the season. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but probably closer to the truth than not.

That said, I'm guessing all the extra cash Bob's squirreling away will offset the bad PR he'll have to take until tomorrow night when, likely during another 3rd inning telephone call, NH will tell you how this actually sets up the Pirates for a Series run in 2018-2019. Surely we can count on the Pirates broadcasting crew to provide their "independent analysis" to agree with NH. Plenty of good seats available for the next home stand. Time for fireworks and all-you-can-stuff-in-your-pie-hole for $35 nights.

[Legacy User]

As long as Bob Fuckhead Nutting is running this ball club, and he's going to own it for a long, long, long, long, long time, it will always be about money first. Winning, especially winning a championship, will be in the backseat. I can't criticize Huntington, because he's working with his hands tied behind his back. He's tasked with building a winning ballclub, while lining Fuckheads pockets. Let's not forget that it was NH that was the man mainly responsible for building the club that ended two decades of shit.
It seems that they are now in the process of breaking down that club, and starting over...at the orders of Fuckhead Nutting himself, I'm sure.
Regardless, it's ridiculous. I don't know if I want to laugh...or bounce my head off a wall!

you know it..!i wish Cuban would give that asshole enough cash to leave town. and show how to own his hometown team..be great day!

[Legacy User]

As long as Bob Fuckhead Nutting is running this ball club, and he's going to own it for a long, long, long, long, long time, it will always be about money first. Winning, especially winning a championship, will be in the backseat. I can't criticize Huntington, because he's working with his hands tied behind his back. He's tasked with building a winning ballclub, while lining Fuckheads pockets. Let's not forget that it was NH that was the man mainly responsible for building the club that ended two decades of shit.
It seems that they are now in the process of breaking down that club, and starting over...at the orders of Fuckhead Nutting himself, I'm sure.
Regardless, it's ridiculous. I don't know if I want to laugh...or bounce my head off a wall!

you know it..!i wish Cuban would give that asshole enough cash to leave town. and show how to own his hometown team..be great day!

Bam, my good friend, I believe Mario Lemieux & Ron Burkle had an interest in buying the team. They were told no because I'm guessing billionaire Bob is making far too much $ owning the team & running it the way he does...and why not?

Tomorrow night I'd bet you'll hear during the Braves game telecast the spin that probably was being written only a few days ago...maybe even before the season started for all we know.

Those who want to believe, those who need to believe, and those who must believe because they know that Nutting is not leaving will CONTINUE TO BELIEVE AND will continue to HAVE THEIR WALLETS RAIDED by an owner and an organization that is acutely adept at extracting money from those willing to part with it. Actually, to be fair, it's the right of such people to forfeit their $ if that's what they wish to do but, in so doing, they exacerbate the problem because they continue to reward the very indefensible behavior that we are witnessing again, and again, and again......

[Legacy User]

agree....whats infuriating to me is the fact that every trade-move-dump is a huge cash bonanza for the owner and that's obviously the reason for the moves. frankie sucked but no more then nibbles who makes peanuts. when your objective is to hope too win and spending is the most important factor you will never win big..i have no doubt nutting would love to win series every year. as it would improve the value of team. but I also believe if the choice was to make 50 million and miss playoffs or make 5 million and win world series he will take the 50 million like the greedy piece of shit he is.

[SteelPro]

If Bob Nutting did order Neal Huntington to dump salary he should fire him for doing such a terrible job at it.

Where I agree with you is that this clearly spotlights Nutting for who he is. I'm sure the Nut doesn't like that aspect of these deals. NH should have had a "Gentlemen's agreement" with the Jays to do the deal even up (player for player), with Ramirez & McGuire to follow later (maybe the off season) for a couple of A-level flame throwers or such. You know, like the MM deal.

Where we part company is that NH did a very effective job of dumping payroll as I'm quite certain he was mandated to do. I'll go full on conspiracy theory -- poor off season leads to mediocre record by end of July which justifies cutting that payroll to the bone after the fans have patronized all but the final two months of the season. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but probably closer to the truth than not.

That said, I'm guessing all the extra cash Bob's squirreling away will offset the bad PR he'll have to take until tomorrow night when, likely during another 3rd inning telephone call, NH will tell you how this actually sets up the Pirates for a Series run in 2018-2019. Surely we can count on the Pirates broadcasting crew to provide their "independent analysis" to agree with NH. Plenty of good seats available for the next home stand. Time for fireworks and all-you-can-stuff-in-your-pie-hole for $35 nights.

The only thing bad about these deals is giving up the prospects. There was a lot of addition by subtraction today. They dropped a couple of high priced underperforming anchors that was holding them back. That should be a good thing. If they could do that while saving some money then more power to them. But to give up two prospects that had considerable value... well that is a really shitty job. Let me break it down in dollars and cents. Prospects have industry value based off the cost per WAR on the open market. Prospects that grade as these two do are projected to achieve a certain WAR over their cost controlled years. Combined, these two prospects have a surplus value of $35-$40 million. I'm not the one coming up with that number. That is straight from sabermetric guys at baseball prospectus that are skewering the Pirates for this trade. So for this trade to be "even" you need to get $35 to $40 million in valuation back. Ok, so let's assume Frankie is a 0 war pitcher from here on out. Getting the Jays to cover $15 million in sunk costs for Frankie's salary makes up for 40% of what you gave away. That means they need Hutchinson to outperform his salary by $25 million over two+ seasons to get value. He is making $2.2 million this year. Say he gets $3 million in arbitration next year, and $5.5 million in 2018. $25 million beyond that put him at $33.5 million. You are expecting him to pitch like a guy making $17 million per year. Highly unlikely. So if I'm Bob Nutting, being the excellent money man that I am, I'm angry as hell that my GM is pissing away valuable assets.

[Legacy User]

If Bob Nutting did order Neal Huntington to dump salary he should fire him for doing such a terrible job at it.

Where I agree with you is that this clearly spotlights Nutting for who he is. I'm sure the Nut doesn't like that aspect of these deals. NH should have had a "Gentlemen's agreement" with the Jays to do the deal even up (player for player), with Ramirez & McGuire to follow later (maybe the off season) for a couple of A-level flame throwers or such. You know, like the MM deal.

Where we part company is that NH did a very effective job of dumping payroll as I'm quite certain he was mandated to do. I'll go full on conspiracy theory -- poor off season leads to mediocre record by end of July which justifies cutting that payroll to the bone after the fans have patronized all but the final two months of the season. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but probably closer to the truth than not.

That said, I'm guessing all the extra cash Bob's squirreling away will offset the bad PR he'll have to take until tomorrow night when, likely during another 3rd inning telephone call, NH will tell you how this actually sets up the Pirates for a Series run in 2018-2019. Surely we can count on the Pirates broadcasting crew to provide their "independent analysis" to agree with NH. Plenty of good seats available for the next home stand. Time for fireworks and all-you-can-stuff-in-your-pie-hole for $35 nights.

The only thing bad about these deals is giving up the prospects. There was a lot of addition by subtraction today. They dropped a couple of high priced under performing anchors that was holding them back. That should be a good thing. If they could do that while saving some money then more power to them. But to give up two prospects that had considerable value... well that is a really shitty job. Let me break it down in dollars and cents. Prospects have industry value based off the cost per WAR on the open market. Prospects that grade as these two do are projected to achieve a certain WAR over their cost controlled years. Combined, these two prospects have a surplus value of $35-$40 million. I'm not the one coming up with that number. That is straight from sabermetric guys at baseball prospectus that are skewering the Pirates for this trade. So for this trade to be "even" you need to get $35 to $40 million in valuation back. Ok, so let's assume Frankie is a 0 war pitcher from here on out. Getting the Jays to cover $15 million in sunk costs for Frankie's salary makes up for 40% of what you gave away. That means they need Hutchinson to outperform his salary by $25 million over two+ seasons to get value. He is making $2.2 million this year. Say he gets $3 million in arbitration next year, and $5.5 million in 2018. $25 million beyond that put him at $33.5 million. You are expecting him to pitch like a guy making $17 million per year. Highly unlikely. So if I'm Bob Nutting, being the excellent money man that I am, I'm angry as hell that my GM is pissing away valuable assets.

1. Agree about addition by subtraction. Agree that the anchors were taking innings away from the wunderkinds.

2. I suspect you value prospects (assets) differently than does Bob Nutting. That's not an insult, Pro, because I suspect that he and I look @ them differently also. I appreciate the WAR education. That makes perfect sense if I'm all-in as the owner to win. It is less relevant if I'm primarily interested in my bottom line. I can't wait to hear the spin tomorrow night. It will be something that should be taught in a University marketing course, I'm sure. Spoiler Alert -- Just saw Bob Pompeani on "The Nightly Sports Call". He said that if Frankie had pitched better and Cutch had performed better this may not have occurred....there is some truth to that....it also suggests that this may be the beginning of the end for Cutch (he screwed up NH's bridge year plan, you know).

3. I don't know how the #s shake out, but Nutting must have some type of economics 497 yield curve that shows net profits on one axis and attendance on the other axis. The idea I'd suspect is to determine where you get the most net profit relative to attendance. Thus, if you can convince enough people into believing you're all in so that they attend some # games by July before you cut the payroll....well, you get the general idea, I'm sure. I'd guess WAR and such, while valuable to those truly all in on winning, probably doesn't factor in all that much to Nutting's thinking.

4. I think NH loves his job with the Pirates. He can make moves like he did this weekend and have the cover (perceived or real) that he made those moves under Nutting's orders. If they fail then he isn't to blame..he did his job. If they work out he gets the credit because he did his job. It would be interesting to see how he'd perform working for a team that truly is all in.

5. Nutting can prove his righteous anger by doing two simple things -- firing NH and hiring a replacement who will aggressively use today's savings to upgrade the 2017 roster. What are the odds, would you say, that either will occur? I'd say somewhere around 0%.

[Legacy User]

This is all about The Nut and making sure his profits are nice and tidy.

When NH denies this to the media, I find it laughable. He does that all the time and yet, time after time, we see how he "saves money" but then doesn't use the saved money to improve the big league ball club.

Niese fucking sucked. The worst trade in baseball just got even worse by essentially making it Neil for Bastardo. That said, I'm glad that we got something of value for Niese, who sucked so bad, I was shocked we got anything for him.

Cisco, I would have preferred we just cut than give up two highly touted prospects. I always thought NH protected prospects like gold. I guess not when saving dollars is concerned. And we had to save the money of course, because The Nut would have it no other way. Greek is here to tell us about Hutch, and I will take him at his word, but he isn't worth those two prospects. Nope, no way.

Nova is a mystery. Why the fuck even make that trade for a very marginal 5th guy? The prospects we're going to give up for him better suck. I have my doubts. We already have a lot of marginal 5th guys on the club (Can we say Locke? Vogelsong?). NH has already said we will probably not re-sign Nova in the off-season. For a rental, this is a suck deal and head scratcher. Worthless trade.

The Shark trade was also terrible in terms of the return.

NH got hosed, but he kept The Nut happy. That's all that matters.

[SteelPro]

You make a good point on Nova. If the goal is to flat dump salary what the hell was that about? Even the Niese trade is confusing. They took on more salary obligation with Bastardo than what they purged with Niese.

[Legacy User]

This is all about The Nut and making sure his profits are nice and tidy.

When NH denies this to the media, I find it laughable. He does that all the time and yet, time after time, we see how he "saves money" but then doesn't use the saved money to improve the big league ball club.

Niese fucking sucked. The worst trade in baseball just got even worse by essentially making it Neil for Bastardo. That said, I'm glad that we got something of value for Niese, who sucked so bad, I was shocked we got anything for him.

Cisco, I would have preferred we just cut than give up two highly touted prospects. I always thought NH protected prospects like gold. I guess not when saving dollars is concerned. And we had to save the money of course, because The Nut would have it no other way. Greek is here to tell us about Hutch, and I will take him at his word, but he isn't worth those two prospects. Nope, no way.

Nova is a mystery. Why the fuck even make that trade for a very marginal 5th guy? The prospects we're going to give up for him better suck. I have my doubts. We already have a lot of marginal 5th guys on the club (Can we say Locke? Vogelsong?). NH has already said we will probably not re-sign Nova in the off-season. For a rental, this is a suck deal and head scratcher. Worthless trade.

The Shark trade was also terrible in terms of the return.

NH got hosed, but he kept The Nut happy. That's all that matters.

Everything was spot on MJG. The reason I bolded some of it was:
1. Maybe the Mets GM hated the Bastard and owed NH a favor. Maybe it's a down payment for trading Cutch/Taillon/Glasnow/Meadows/Kuhl for a double A pitcher coming off Tommy John.
2. You and I realize cutting Cisco meant the Pirates would have paid Cisco. I'm glad Toronto didn't ask for Meadows also because maybe he could have been had for the taking...maybe he's already gone in the AVON trade?

[Legacy User]

I'm nervous wondering who these 2 players to be named later are for Mr. 4.90 ERA Nova, who btw, is just considered a "rental". He's a FA after this season. I pray NH will just give them some low level minor leaguers, not anyone with any worth like Hanson for instance.

[Legacy User]

Thank all you guys for the great poasts. I don't know nearly as much about many of the players involved in these trades, but here's my simple take.

Niese and Liriano are gone. That's a positive. Melancon wasn't going to be kept past this season, and he's a closer. They got value for the asset. I'll get upset about losing Melancon when the Pirates start blowing saves.

We need pitching. What did we get in these deals? A bunch of young hard throwing arms. I like that. Similar to the Steelers when we need secondary help and they spend the first 2 picks there. I understand people have their opinions on players - some more educated than others - but no one knows shit until we see what these guys do in a Pirate uniform.

It's August 2nd. There are about 60 games left and we're 3.5 back of a wild card. I'm far from throwing in the towel on 2016. It's up to the players on this team to step the fuck up and start winning games. Hurdle should bring Crosby into the clubhouse now to talk to these guys. Grab your fucking sacs, Buccos.