It's about the profiles of the players being drafted...

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It's about the profiles of the players being drafted...

Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:59 am

That's the issue. That's what's missing. Before, we drafted/signed tough guys. Rock 'Em, sock 'Em, tough guys. Guys like Faneca, Hartings, Ward, Miller, Roethlisberger, Bettis, Kreider, Randle El, A.Smith, Von Oelhoffen, Hampton, Harrison, Keisel, Porter, Clark, Hope, Taylor, Polamalu, Farrior, Foote, and even Parker, Hoke, Kirshke, Staley, and Holmes.

These days, if you ran a fast 40, jumped high, or dazzled in shorts, you're the next Steeler. Guys like Pouncey, Hood, Heyward, Wheaton, Shazier, Thomas, Allen, Jones, Mitchell, Gilbert, Adams, Mendenhaul, Sweed, Timmons, Archer, and McClendon.

Athletes are awesome, but to me, they're auxiliary to a hard nosed base. Personally, I like my interior stout, and strong, with my fringes fast. Think Mike Tyson. Thick, strong core, with lightning fast extremities. Yes, his hands got the glory, but it was his base and ability to generate power from the inside that made him lethal. We've shucked all aspects of power and have gone full finesse. Even on the players we've hit on, show more finesse than power. Guys like Brown & Bell. I'll take power. Like boxers, power is the last thing to go. Right now, we've got none...



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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:24 am

Profiling, hunh?

You don't say.

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Post by StillerInCT » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:11 am

I wouldn't put Heyward in there. He might be the only guy on defense right now that excretes testosterone
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:39 am

StillerInCT wrote:I wouldn't put Heyward in there. He might be the only guy on defense right now that excretes testosterone


Heyward is playing some awful football right now. Don't be fooled by his lip service.

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Post by StillerInCT » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:43 am

R-O-N wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:I wouldn't put Heyward in there. He might be the only guy on defense right now that excretes testosterone


Heyward is playing some awful football right now. Don't be fooled by his lip service.


I agree he hasn't played great but he's surrounded by shit. I'm not really concerned about him. Everyone else that's a different story.
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:10 pm

We need to start drafting guys with normal first names...

David
Ben
Steve
These are acceptable names

Limas
Rashard
Jervis

These types of odd first names should be avoided at all costs.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:23 pm

StillerInCT wrote:I wouldn't put Heyward in there. He might be the only guy on defense right now that excretes testosterone


Heyward is one of the few players selected in the Tomlin era that has prototypical size for his position. Basically he has the same build and frame and roughly the same slow to quick twitch ratio as AA and Keisel. Most others are Al Davis style selections. Fast and dumb with football player instinct as an after thought.

The Steeler roster is loaded with square peg round holes players. One or two you can deal with and give them subpackage playing time but everybody can't be misshapen-ed in body, mind, heart and/or football smarts.

Where is the first team capable ILB that can line up the defense, shed blockers and make the tackle? where? where?

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:25 pm

BarryFoster wrote:We need to start drafting guys with normal first names...

David
Ben
Steve
These are acceptable names

Limas
Rashard
Jervis

These types of odd first names should be avoided at all costs.


I think its more geography. The hat store in Bedrock is a good place to start.

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Post by Gonzo » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:37 pm

I tend to generally agree on this one.

I have said for some time that there is a disconnect between what we are doing and what we are drafting.
And have speculated that MT had a vision of playing attrition football but with lighter more athletic guys on D and on O still pounding the rock but with a finesse/quicker element.

It has failed -- in my mind because it was a bad idea to begin with but moreso because while he gives lip service to his blades of grass bullshit he thoroughly ignores the basic principles of his Herm Schottenheimer philosophy.

He should be upset about the Xs and Os comments because it calls his problem out in the open. He is an exceptionally shallow Head Coach

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Post by stinger8 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:51 pm

I agree with the general theme of this thread. This is in a way like a case study in business school. There are many symptoms of one or two key critical, foundational issues. Fix the core issue and many symptoms disappear. In my opinion, a core problem needing attention is the poor results when drafting new players. For all the justified bitching about coaches, my first structural change without any hesitation would be replacing Colbert. His contributions the last 5 years have been integral to our current plight. I also believe one of the few good things he has contributed was drafting Heyward. Kid is solid, he cares, got no problems with Heyward

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Post by StillerInCT » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:24 pm

Gonzo wrote:I tend to generally agree on this one.

I have said for some time that there is a disconnect between what we are doing and what we are drafting.
And have speculated that MT had a vision of playing attrition football but with lighter more athletic guys on D and on O still pounding the rock but with a finesse/quicker element.

It has failed -- in my mind because it was a bad idea to begin with but moreso because while he gives lip service to his blades of grass bullshit he thoroughly ignores the basic principles of his Herm Schottenheimer philosophy.

He should be upset about the Xs and Os comments because it calls his problem out in the open. He is an exceptionally shallow Head Coach


^ This

Wants to be an attrition football team yet drafts guys that are built for the exact opposite. We're lucky that we can squeak out 8-8 seasons.
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:23 pm

Interesting breakdown of demographics between the list of good players and the list of bad ones.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:39 pm

Stinger8 wrote:I agree with the general theme of this thread. This is in a way like a case study in business school. There are many symptoms of one or two key critical, foundational issues. Fix the core issue and many symptoms disappear. In my opinion, a core problem needing attention is the poor results when drafting new players. For all the justified bitching about coaches, my first structural change without any hesitation would be replacing Colbert. His contributions the last 5 years have been integral to our current plight. I also believe one of the few good things he has contributed was drafting Heyward. Kid is solid, he cares, got no problems with Heyward


Oh bullshit the basic problem is Tomlin.

Tomlin has Timmons and he drafts what he hopes is the mack of today and the future? Really? Seriously? Don't any of you see what's going on here?

Tomlin has a vision and Colbert puts the kind of groceries on the shelf that Tomlin wants. Then Tomlin goes around with his basket and picks the vegetables that he wants.

Haley, Danny Smith and Lebeau cook them up and serve them to the Steeler loyal and they taste like shit.



If Colbert has a fault its not going over Tomlin's head to EMR. Its easy enough to say quit out of principal but I bet that boots you out of the Rooney North Catholic mafia for life. Colbert seems to be in a no win situation. Maybe he saw what happened with Cowher and Donahoe and is riding it out, IDK.

Image

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Post by stinger8 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:48 pm

SteelerzEdsaL7 wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:I agree with the general theme of this thread. This is in a way like a case study in business school. There are many symptoms of one or two key critical, foundational issues. Fix the core issue and many symptoms disappear. In my opinion, a core problem needing attention is the poor results when drafting new players. For all the justified bitching about coaches, my first structural change without any hesitation would be replacing Colbert. His contributions the last 5 years have been integral to our current plight. I also believe one of the few good things he has contributed was drafting Heyward. Kid is solid, he cares, got no problems with Heyward


Oh bullshit the basic problem is Tomlin.

Tomlin has Timmons and he drafts what he hopes is the mack of today and the future? Really? Seriously? Don't any of you see what's going on here?

Tomlin has a vision and Colbert puts the kind of groceries on the shelf that Tomlin wants. Then Tomlin goes around with his basket and picks the vegetables that he wants.

Haley, Danny Smith and Lebeau cook them up and serve them to the Steeler loyal and they taste like shit.



If Colbert has a fault its not going over Tomlin's head to EMR. Its easy enough to say quit out of principal but I bet that boots you out of the Rooney North Catholic mafia for life. Colbert seems to be in a no win situation. Maybe he saw what happened with Cowher and Donahoe and is riding it out, IDK.

Image


Colberts job is to select a scouting staff, and do all the work necessary to select the optimal players on draft day. That's HIS job, and he has done a very shitty job over the past 5 years. Reality is because of his lousy work we are screwed for a minimum of 2 years. I already have resigned myself to the fact that we will suck for this year and probably next. That does not mean I am giving the HC a pass, it just means in my opinion without a doubt, Colbert should be replaced. That work should be going on NOW, scouring the league for good candidates.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:49 pm

The Pierogi wrote:Interesting breakdown of demographics between the list of good players and the list of bad ones.

That's a reach, you pot stirring, douche. I'd take a Porter, Ward, Harrison, Hope, Bettis, Hampton, Randle El, Foote, or Farrior right now. I'd trade every single guy on our team in the corresponding position for them. These Tomlin-nites, fucking suck...

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:51 pm

R-O-N wrote:
The Pierogi wrote:Interesting breakdown of demographics between the list of good players and the list of bad ones.

That's a reach, you pot stirring, douche. I'd take a Porter, Ward, Harrison, Hope, Bettis, Hampton, Randle El, Foote, or Farrior right now. I'd trade every single guy on our team in the corresponding position for them. These Tomlin-nites, fucking suck...


Tomlin's not drafting enough Stormin' Mormons, clearly.

And you would be a terrible GM. No team in the league would be winning games with a bunch of 40-year-olds at every position.

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Post by Steelperch » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:53 pm

This is another example of RON being at least half right and you guys not accepting it because of how he frames things. His ideas usually start off with a good thought, but something goes horribly wrong half way through. RON, I'm half way with you on this one.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:00 pm

Stinger8 wrote:
Colberts job is to select a scouting staff, and do all the work necessary to select the optimal players on draft day. That's HIS job, and he has done a very shitty job over the past 5 years. Reality is because of his lousy work we are screwed for a minimum of 2 years. I already have resigned myself to the fact that we will suck for this year and probably next. That does not mean I am giving the HC a pass, it just means in my opinion without a doubt, Colbert should be replaced. That work should be going on NOW, scouring the league for good candidates.


Absolute bullshit. Are you saying that Colbert goes out and selects the players for each round and poor Mikey Mike is stuck with such thin pickins?

This Tomlin apologist shit is just laughable. Why pray tell then are the players so radically different in type than the crop that Cowher harvested? Did Colbert all of a sudden go speed uber alles happy? Oh poor Mikey Mike, Colbert is sabotaging him.

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Post by 955876 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:07 pm

R-O-N wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:I wouldn't put Heyward in there. He might be the only guy on defense right now that excretes testosterone


Heyward is playing some awful football right now. Don't be fooled by his lip service.


I don't recall which play it was but there was a replay and Heyward was getting rag dolled by the offensive lineman. Badly.
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Post by stinger8 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:13 pm

SteelerzEdsaL7 wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
Colberts job is to select a scouting staff, and do all the work necessary to select the optimal players on draft day. That's HIS job, and he has done a very shitty job over the past 5 years. Reality is because of his lousy work we are screwed for a minimum of 2 years. I already have resigned myself to the fact that we will suck for this year and probably next. That does not mean I am giving the HC a pass, it just means in my opinion without a doubt, Colbert should be replaced. That work should be going on NOW, scouring the league for good candidates.


Absolute bullshit. Are you saying that Colbert goes out and selects the players for each round and poor Mikey Mike is stuck with such thin pickins?

This Tomlin apologist shit is just laughable. Why pray tell then are the players so radically different in type than the crop that Cowher harvested? Did Colbert all of a sudden go speed uber alles happy? Oh poor Mikey Mike, Colbert is sabotaging him.


Ed first of all chill the fuck out ok? Don't need your "aggression". Maybe consider decaf. Secondly, who is responsible for drafting??? Who??? If you want to contend that Tomlin is responsible go ahead, it serves your agenda. The way I look at it the player selection has been poor for several years, Colbert is responsible for this job and he takes the rap for this situation. If he has been over ruled by the H.C. then he should resign, if not then be prepared to be face the consequences. Now want to talk about player development, game planning, clock management, player motivation etc etc etc start another thread.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:15 pm

955876 wrote:
R-O-N wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:I wouldn't put Heyward in there. He might be the only guy on defense right now that excretes testosterone


Heyward is playing some awful football right now. Don't be fooled by his lip service.


I don't recall which play it was but there was a replay and Heyward was getting rag dolled by the offensive lineman. Badly.


Must have been in between all those plays where he was the only guy on defense within 5 yards of Hoyer.

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Post by 955876 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:19 pm

I agree with Ron's premise as well.

Personnel decisions in terms of what this teams "needs" are, player selection, roster composition, game day roster, etc etc have fucked this team.

Not only do we have shitty starters, but we don't have anything behind these guys. Very little to get excited about.

This team is fixated on the wrong things. They can't put an oline together so they focus on TEs that can block. Problem is, in today's game teams use TEs to create mismatches. We ignore that.

So we end up with guys that can't threaten a defense and really aren't that effective at blocking. At least not to the point it's moving our needle.

Miller was drafted in 2005. It's 2014 and we've yet to find a legitimate TE to pair with him or replace him.

And if this staff stays, our next TE will likely be a poor man's Miller.

The blueprint is out there. Find the pieces and find the coaches that will bring it together.
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:22 pm

955876 wrote:I agree with Ron's premise as well.

Personnel decisions in terms of what this teams "needs" are, player selection, roster composition, game day roster, etc etc have fucked this team.

Not only do we have shitty starters, but we don't have anything behind these guys. Very little to get excited about.

This team is fixated on the wrong things. They can't put an oline together so they focus on TEs that can block. Problem is, in today's game teams use TEs to create mismatches. We ignore that.

So we end up with guys that can't threaten a defense and really aren't that effective at blocking. At least not to the point it's moving our needle.

Miller was drafted in 2005. It's 2014 and we've yet to find a legitimate TE to pair with him or replace him.

And if this staff stays, our next TE will likely be a poor man's Miller.

The blueprint is out there. Find the pieces and find the coaches that will bring it together.


Everybody's running a 3-4 now. They could get guys like Porter, Keisel and Aaron Smith because they didn't fit anybody else's system when they were drafted. There are no tweeners now.

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Post by 955876 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:23 pm

Must have been in between all those plays where he was the only guy on defense within 5 yards of Hoyer.


Are you trying to say it didn't happen?

It was a run play and he was on skates.
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Post by Gonzo » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:25 pm

Colbert doesn't draft alone
He is tasked with needs, concepts etc ...
They have stated it is a group project and MT has significant input
To me, the "type" of player they are drafting is obvious

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Post by 955876 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:26 pm

The Pierogi wrote:
955876 wrote:I agree with Ron's premise as well.

Personnel decisions in terms of what this teams "needs" are, player selection, roster composition, game day roster, etc etc have fucked this team.

Not only do we have shitty starters, but we don't have anything behind these guys. Very little to get excited about.

This team is fixated on the wrong things. They can't put an oline together so they focus on TEs that can block. Problem is, in today's game teams use TEs to create mismatches. We ignore that.

So we end up with guys that can't threaten a defense and really aren't that effective at blocking. At least not to the point it's moving our needle.

Miller was drafted in 2005. It's 2014 and we've yet to find a legitimate TE to pair with him or replace him.

And if this staff stays, our next TE will likely be a poor man's Miller.

The blueprint is out there. Find the pieces and find the coaches that will bring it together.


Everybody's running a 3-4 now. They could get guys like Porter, Keisel and Aaron Smith because they didn't fit anybody else's system when they were drafted. There are no tweeners now.


What does what you said have to do with what I said?

I get it's harder to find an Aaron Smith. It's not just defense. It's our personnel choices. Archer is a perfect example.

And in my post I was specifically talking the TE position. Is it harder to find those guys too because everyone uses a TE?
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:39 pm

Stinger8 wrote:
SteelerzEdsaL7 wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
Colberts job is to select a scouting staff, and do all the work necessary to select the optimal players on draft day. That's HIS job, and he has done a very shitty job over the past 5 years. Reality is because of his lousy work we are screwed for a minimum of 2 years. I already have resigned myself to the fact that we will suck for this year and probably next. That does not mean I am giving the HC a pass, it just means in my opinion without a doubt, Colbert should be replaced. That work should be going on NOW, scouring the league for good candidates.


Absolute bullshit. Are you saying that Colbert goes out and selects the players for each round and poor Mikey Mike is stuck with such thin pickins?

This Tomlin apologist shit is just laughable. Why pray tell then are the players so radically different in type than the crop that Cowher harvested? Did Colbert all of a sudden go speed uber alles happy? Oh poor Mikey Mike, Colbert is sabotaging him.


Ed first of all chill the fuck out ok? Don't need your "aggression". Maybe consider decaf. Secondly, who is responsible for drafting??? Who??? If you want to contend that Tomlin is responsible go ahead, it serves your agenda. The way I look at it the player selection has been poor for several years, Colbert is responsible for this job and he takes the rap for this situation. If he has been over ruled by the H.C. then he should resign, if not then be prepared to be face the consequences. Now want to talk about player development, game planning, clock management, player motivation etc etc etc start another thread.


Your point that it's all about Colbert is ludicrous. There is only one major variable during the Colbert GM era and that variable is Cowher v Tomlin. That's the Alpha and Omega, the elephant in the room.

I ask anybody, who is available next year that took a smoldering wreck of a NFL franchise and turned it into a contender that isn't an AARP member? Who?

Lots here have said they hate Harbaugh. Personally I couldn't care less if he won the douche nozzle award of the year ten years running. He fixed Singletary's fuckup and I'd throw him the keys to fix this fuckup. If that means he boots Colbert and tells EMR to shut his fuckin pie hole then I'm ok with that too.

Finally you say I have an agenda. That's true, my agenda is Lombardis. FWIW Tomlin is below the line. Tomlin's standard is not THE Standard. Next man up, if you will, obviously.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:47 pm

Gonzo wrote:Colbert doesn't draft alone
He is tasked with needs, concepts etc ...
They have stated it is a group project and MT has significant input
To me, the "type" of player they are drafting is obvious


they have area scouts, regional scouts, head scouts, position coaches, coordinators, head coach, GM all doing scouting work

they get input from at least 7 different people on all players they consider drafting. It very much is an all inclusive thing.

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Post by Suwanee88 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:51 pm

Iron_City wrote:
Gonzo wrote:Colbert doesn't draft alone
He is tasked with needs, concepts etc ...
They have stated it is a group project and MT has significant input
To me, the "type" of player they are drafting is obvious


they have area scouts, regional scouts, head scouts, position coaches, coordinators, head coach, GM all doing scouting work

they get input from at least 7 different people on all players they consider drafting. It very much is an all inclusive thing.

I wonder how the Steelers scouting department stacks up against the other teams in regards to amount of people involved?

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:13 pm

955876 wrote:
The Pierogi wrote:
955876 wrote:I agree with Ron's premise as well.

Personnel decisions in terms of what this teams "needs" are, player selection, roster composition, game day roster, etc etc have fucked this team.

Not only do we have shitty starters, but we don't have anything behind these guys. Very little to get excited about.

This team is fixated on the wrong things. They can't put an oline together so they focus on TEs that can block. Problem is, in today's game teams use TEs to create mismatches. We ignore that.

So we end up with guys that can't threaten a defense and really aren't that effective at blocking. At least not to the point it's moving our needle.

Miller was drafted in 2005. It's 2014 and we've yet to find a legitimate TE to pair with him or replace him.

And if this staff stays, our next TE will likely be a poor man's Miller.

The blueprint is out there. Find the pieces and find the coaches that will bring it together.


Everybody's running a 3-4 now. They could get guys like Porter, Keisel and Aaron Smith because they didn't fit anybody else's system when they were drafted. There are no tweeners now.


What does what you said have to do with what I said?

I get it's harder to find an Aaron Smith. It's not just defense. It's our personnel choices. Archer is a perfect example.

And in my post I was specifically talking the TE position. Is it harder to find those guys too because everyone uses a TE?


It has to do with Ron's point, which you agreed with.

It's not any harder to identify athletic mismatch TEs. It's harder to find them in the bargain bin, especially when it seems like the Steelers have chosen to devalue specific positions in favor of drafting all the linebackers and offensive linemen.

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