Pirates Franchise Four

[JackLambert58]

Solid choices although I might have gone with Kiner over Maz.

Great living four: Aaron, Bench, Koufax and Mays. I don't know about Bench. Great catcher, no doubt. I can think of a handful of players I'd rather have who are living - Carew, Yaz, Gibson, heck I'd even go so far as to say I'd rather have Dave Parker on my team. Again, my opinion.

Not sure if they're doing this but if you went greatest four of all time, I've got:

The Babe, Willie Mays, Walter Johnson, Satchel Paige

[jeemie]

I might have gone Kiner as well but Maz was our best second baseman ever and also had that little home run which, while only one AB, still came at kind of an important moment...

And his glove and range alone got him into the HoF.

PS And Bench, while great, was a SOP to the hometown Reds' fans.

[Legacy User]

I think if you have to pick 4, those are about the ones I'd pick. Tough to leave Ralph off, but I would go with Maz, no doubt about it.

[Legacy User]

I know it's been fashionable to say that Bench is overestimated, but the only comparisons I see to him are guys like Jack Clark and other fielders -- no one compares Bench to other catchers from his era -- He was dominant catcher in the 70s -- no one had power like him -- he was EASILY the best catcher in the 1970s

I think it's misleading to compare his stats to a 1B or 3B from the same era or to a guy from the 80s or 90s

plus, the 1970's was dominated by great pitching

[JackLambert58]

All good points steel. Bench was the greatest catcher of his era. I don't dispute that. I just don't think he makes the top four living players. In fact, the guy on the same team who has been banned should be there before Bench.

[Legacy User]

I'd say that Paul Waner should be considered in this group.

You could also consider Pie Trayner, except I always associate him with Roto Rooter, which probably brings his reputation down a peg or two.

[R_S]

All good points steel. Bench was the greatest catcher of his era. I don't dispute that. I just don't think he makes the top four living players. In fact, the guy on the same team who has been banned should be there before Bench.

Exactly right Jack. No way he is a top 4 living.

I know people want to forget the 80's and 90's existed. Nolan Ryan? Randy Johnson? Bonds was a better player. Jeter? yep. But those guys don't have enough nostalgia for the old stinkers.

How about Yaz? he's still alive right? You could argue Yogi over Bench easily. Even Pete Rose.

They were definitely throwing Cincy a bone.

[Havoc]

Johnny Bench is the best catcher I have ever seen.

The closest thing to him that I have seen is Pudge Rodriguez.

[R_S]

Best living catcher was not the criteria.

[Havoc]

Best living catcher was not the criteria.

I hear you. You can make a case for other players, no doubt.

Don't underestimate the impact the cannon armed Bench and the quick as a cat/rocket armed Pudge Rodriguez made on baseball games purely on defense.

No doubt they were throwing Cincy a bone... but I can't argue against taking the best guy at his position (since I've been watching).

[Legacy User]

Best living catcher was not the criteria.

I hear you. You can make a case for other players, no doubt.

Don't underestimate the impact the canon armed Bench and the quick as a cat/rocket armed Pudge made on baseball games purely on defense.

No doubt they were throwing Cincy a bone... but I can't argue against taking the best guy at his position (since I've been watching).

maybe not one of the best 4 living players -- grant you that -- but look at the list of guys who played catcher in the MLB from 1970 - 79 --- Bench is so far and away the best one, it's not even funny

[Havoc]

I would take Bench or Pudge Rodriguez over Jeter.

If you can shut down an opposing team's running game, you can change a series.

[JackLambert58]

Holy shit RS, how the hell could I have forgotten about Yogi? In my mind a better catcher than Bench. One of the most clutch players of all-time especially in the post-season. Old men in Brooklyn still have nightmares about him. Stengel said he was the guy who was the heart and soul of all those Yankee teams of the 50's.

[Havoc]

To RS post...

It did strike me as a little odd that all 4 of those guys were from the wayback machine, but...

They obviously stayed away from the perceived performance enhancers which is probably why you didn't see a more modern player.

58,

I would take Bench over Pete Rose. Rose did not impact games on defense to the level Bench did due to the positions they played. 2 NL MVP's for Bench compared to 1 NL MVP for Rose. 10 gold gloves for Bench compared to 2 gold gloves for Rose.

You can't go wrong with any of the guys mentioned though including Pete. They were all among the all time greats.

[Legacy User]

Holy shit RS, how the hell could I have forgotten about Yogi? In my mind a better catcher than Bench. One of the most clutch players of all-time especially in the post-season. Old men in Brooklyn still have nightmares about him. Stengel said he was the guy who was the heart and soul of all those Yankee teams of the 50's.

THIS all the way. Yogi should be on that list, bar none.

[SteelPro]

Holy shit RS, how the hell could I have forgotten about Yogi? In my mind a better catcher than Bench. One of the most clutch players of all-time especially in the post-season. Old men in Brooklyn still have nightmares about him. Stengel said he was the guy who was the heart and soul of all those Yankee teams of the 50's.

THIS all the way. Yogi should be on that list, bar none.

I'm fine with no Yankees being on the list. In my mind a bigger snub was not including Randy Johnson.

[JackLambert58]

Sorry can't agree Pro. I hate the Yankees too but Berra was a great player. Can't penalize him because of the team he was on. At least I can't.

[Nick79]

Objectively, going purely by playing the game and nothing else, with no consideration about character or anything like that. I can't see how you could leave Rose off of top living 4. Back in the '70s, there was nobody I hated more, but that was only because he was a Pirates rival. Before all the shit came to the surface about his activities, you would have had to put Rose's picture in the dictionary next to the definition of baseball. Just IMO.

[Nick79]

You could also consider Pie Trayner, except I always associate him with Roto Rooter, which probably brings his reputation down a peg or two.

And Studio Wrestling! "Who can? Ameri-CAN"

[Havoc]

You guys might be right about Yogi Berra over Bench. My comments are only on the guys I have seen play.

3 AL MVP's for Yogi.