3rd and 18

[rooneytunes]

With the way the win happened it will last forever in Steelers lore.

But what do you think the outcome would have been if we had just run a simple draw on 3rd and 18 at the end of the 3rd and punted. Bengals get ball at like their 30 having not done much all night. Ben doesn't get hurt, crowd doesn't get fired up, even if they do score more time is off the clock because they have to go farther, Ben plays rest of the game andgets some first downs to stop the comeback, Brown doesn't get hurt at the end probably. Why would they even attempt a pass there?

[swissvale72]

Same shit might've happened. LOS for that play was around Steelers 14, right? To put the Bungs at their 30, net on the punt would've had to have been 56 yards. More like it, is that they would have had the ball at their own 40 or 45 rather than Steelers 45. Might have made absolutely no difference.

[USS Steelerworks]

In this scenario with running a draw on that play the Bengals still probably come back, but Roethlisberger at least stays healthy. Maybe Brown still gets hurt - who knows.

[Legacy User]

With the way the win happened it will last forever in Steelers lore.

But what do you think the outcome would have been if we had just run a simple draw on 3rd and 18 at the end of the 3rd and punted. Bengals get ball at like their 30 having not done much all night. Ben doesn't get hurt, crowd doesn't get fired up, even if they do score more time is off the clock because they have to go farther, Ben plays rest of the game andgets some first downs to stop the comeback, Brown doesn't get hurt at the end probably. Why would they even attempt a pass there?

I've been thinking A LOT about that play. I'm no fan of giving up on drives but that deep, that long to go. Draw play and cut your losses, take it into the 4th quarter up 15. Their pattern of being bold when they should be conservative, and being conservative (not going for it on 4th down vs. Seattle) when they should be bold.

Speaking of which, I would have kicked the extra point and made it 16-0. That forces them into making two point attempts that they would have a high likelihood of botching (as we saw later in the game).

[steelclan]

If the Refs had actually bothered to pay attention? Burfict gets slapped with a 15 yard PF, 1st down and Bengal come back gets far more unlikely.

[955876]

With the way the win happened it will last forever in Steelers lore.

But what do you think the outcome would have been if we had just run a simple draw on 3rd and 18 at the end of the 3rd and punted. Bengals get ball at like their 30 having not done much all night. Ben doesn't get hurt, crowd doesn't get fired up, even if they do score more time is off the clock because they have to go farther, Ben plays rest of the game andgets some first downs to stop the comeback, Brown doesn't get hurt at the end probably. Why would they even attempt a pass there?

I've been thinking A LOT about that play. I'm no fan of giving up on drives but that deep, that long to go. Draw play and cut your losses, take it into the 4th quarter up 15. Their pattern of being bold when they should be conservative, and being conservative (not going for it on 4th down vs. Seattle) when they should be bold.

Speaking of which, I would have kicked the extra point and made it 16-0. That forces them into making two point attempts that they would have a high likelihood of botching (as we saw later in the game).

This all day. I was going to start a thread about it but decided not to bother wasting the time. Have been wanting to comment so glad to see others are seeing the same things I am.

Right before that play I turned to my wife and said hand the ball off here and punt. The risk/reward was simply too great there given the situation. I get that 15 points doesn't seal a victory in this modern NFL. However, when faced with 3rd & 18 in a game running as hot in terms of emotion as this one was you DONT take that drop back there. And if you do, you had better damn well tell your QB that if the play isn't there THROW IT AWAY!!!

And this is bigger than this one play. I fully get that Ben is a playmaker and has a full resume of making huge plays on broken ones. The fact remains that he flat out needs to be smarter and realize the situation. Making a play right there wasn't that important. You are heading into the 4th up 15-0. You don't need to risk life and limb (literally) on that particular 3rd & 18. The QB needs to have big picture in mind and do the smart thing as opposed to the heroic thing.

Brady throws that ball away and punts. But then, that's why he tends to be healthy when it matters. Something Ben has long struggled with.

Sacks and injuries happen. It's football. Difference here is that he ran himself right into that sack.

Now we gimp into Denver for what will almost certainly be a loss unless this is just a big smokescreen.

We punted how many times on Sunday prior to that play?? One more up 15-0 wasn't going to seal our fate.

That sack likely did though.

While Ben might be playing the best ball of his career he still doesnt have the mind of the truly elite QBs.

Denver and NE were beatable. They are not with Landry Jones or broke wing Ben.

[swissvale72]

With the way the win happened it will last forever in Steelers lore.

But what do you think the outcome would have been if we had just run a simple draw on 3rd and 18 at the end of the 3rd and punted. Bengals get ball at like their 30 having not done much all night. Ben doesn't get hurt, crowd doesn't get fired up, even if they do score more time is off the clock because they have to go farther, Ben plays rest of the game andgets some first downs to stop the comeback, Brown doesn't get hurt at the end probably. Why would they even attempt a pass there?

I've been thinking A LOT about that play. I'm no fan of giving up on drives but that deep, that long to go. Draw play and cut your losses, take it into the 4th quarter up 15. Their pattern of being bold when they should be conservative, and being conservative (not going for it on 4th down vs. Seattle) when they should be bold.

Speaking of which, I would have kicked the extra point and made it 16-0. That forces them into making two point attempts that they would have a high likelihood of botching (as we saw later in the game).

This all day. I was going to start a thread about it but decided not to bother wasting the time. Have been wanting to comment so glad to see others are seeing the same things I am.

Right before that play I turned to my wife and said hand the ball off here and punt. The risk/reward was simply too great there given the situation. I get that 15 points doesn't seal a victory in this modern NFL. However, when faced with 3rd & 18 in a game running as hot in terms of emotion as this one was you DONT take that drop back there. And if you do, you had better damn well tell your QB that if the play isn't there THROW IT AWAY!!!

And this is bigger than this one play. I fully get that Ben is a playmaker and has a full resume of making huge plays on broken ones. The fact remains that he flat out needs to be smarter and realize the situation. Making a play right there wasn't that important. You are heading into the 4th up 15-0. You don't need to risk life and limb (literally) on that particular 3rd & 18. The QB needs to have big picture in mind and do the smart thing as opposed to the heroic thing.

Brady throws that ball away and punts. But then, that's why he tends to be healthy when it matters. Something Ben has long struggled with.

Sacks and injuries happen. It's football. Difference here is that he ran himself right into that sack.

Now we gimp into Denver for what will almost certainly be a loss unless this is just a big smokescreen.

We punted how many times on Sunday prior to that play?? One more up 15-0 wasn't going to seal our fate.

That sack likely did though.

While Ben might be playing the best ball of his career he still doesnt have the mind of the truly elite QBs.

Denver and NE were beatable. They are not with Landry Jones or broke wing Ben.

First off, of all the injured guys, I believe Ben will play and that he won't compromised to any significant degree. That said, and despite my suggesting that the game may have followed a similar course, I was all for a handoff on 3rd & 18 in that spot.

[955876]

I agree that the game could have followed a similar course. My gripe is the needless injury.

Our coaches & QB need to be more analytical in regards to the small details or nuances of the game.

They continually ignore the "little things" that keep biting this team in the ass.

HC, OC, QB coach get in Ben's ear at all before that play saying if not open get rid of it?

If not, why?

I suppose we don't sweat that stuff.

[swissvale72]

I agree that the game could have followed a similar course. My gripe is the needless injury.

Our coaches & QB need to be more analytical in regards to the small details or nuances of the game.

They continually ignore the "little things" that keep biting this team in the ass.

HC, OC, QB coach get in Ben's ear at all before that play saying if not open get rid of it?

If not, why?

I suppose we don't sweat that stuff.

I'm not looking at the tape right now.....but seems to me that Burfict was engaged, then all of a sudden, Ben was sacked. I don't think it was one of those where there was really an opportunity for Ben to get rid of the ball.

[Legacy User]

Seems like a lot of TMQB'ing to me. If they had run it then later lost there would be bitching about going too conservative. If Ben gets sacked but doesn't get hurt it's barely an afterthought for anybody.

In the current environment when defensive penalties for illegal contact and holding are so common I'm very reluctant to ever give up on a possession. This team is built to make that kind of shit happen on occasion.

[Legacy User]

when faced with 3rd & 18 in a game running as hot in terms of emotion as this one was you DONT take that drop back there. And if you do, you had better damn well tell your QB that if the play isn't there THROW IT AWAY!!!

And this is bigger than this one play. I fully get that Ben is a playmaker and has a full resume of making huge plays on broken ones. The fact remains that he flat out needs to be smarter and realize the situation. Making a play right there wasn't that important. You are heading into the 4th up 15-0. You don't need to risk life and limb (literally) on that particular 3rd & 18. The QB needs to have big picture in mind and do the smart thing as opposed to the heroic thing.

Brady throws that ball away and punts. But then, that's why he tends to be healthy when it matters. Something Ben has long struggled with.

Sacks and injuries happen. It's football. Difference here is that he ran himself right into that sack.

.

THIS !!!

I didn't like the play call either, but so what -- run or pass, doesn't matter - the main thing is, BEN NEEDED TO THROW IT AWAY, not just to run out of the pocket and risk a huge sack, fumble or safety right there. Of course, the worst possible thing happened -- AN INJURY.

Ben held the ball way too long, and then tried to roll out and "make something happen". Dumb play. Ben needs to play smarter

[Legacy User]

If Rex Ryan and his boys don't beat Buffalo, Ben doesn't get hurt.

So there's that

[955876]

I agree that the game could have followed a similar course. My gripe is the needless injury.

Our coaches & QB need to be more analytical in regards to the small details or nuances of the game.

They continually ignore the "little things" that keep biting this team in the ass.

HC, OC, QB coach get in Ben's ear at all before that play saying if not open get rid of it?

If not, why?

I suppose we don't sweat that stuff.

I'm not looking at the tape right now.....but seems to me that Burfict was engaged, then all of a sudden, Ben was sacked. I don't think it was one of those where there was really an opportunity for Ben to get rid of the ball.

Ben could have thrown it away. The only reason there was no opportunity to do so was instead of just throwing it away he pulled it down and tried to get outside. And ran right into the arms of 55.

And that's my point. The powers that be need to know Cincy is t goin to give up a gimme first with 18 yards needed.

So when it wasn't there know ahead of time you are going to throw it away. That was never an option. Play wasn't open and Ben decided best thing was to run around.

IIt was just a poor decision by him. Up 15-0 going into 4th someone has to be thinking bout these things.

Ben being healthy enough to actually finish a season is goin to be the biggest determining factor in terms of whether or not he gets into another SB.

His mind isn't operating in combo with his physical ability to escape. Or lack thereof.

If his wing is fine this is all a moot point. At this point though I think that play ended our season. And that's a shame in what is a weak AFC along with very beatable NFC teams.

[Havoc]

when faced with 3rd & 18 in a game running as hot in terms of emotion as this one was you DONT take that drop back there. And if you do, you had better damn well tell your QB that if the play isn't there THROW IT AWAY!!!

And this is bigger than this one play. I fully get that Ben is a playmaker and has a full resume of making huge plays on broken ones. The fact remains that he flat out needs to be smarter and realize the situation. Making a play right there wasn't that important. You are heading into the 4th up 15-0. You don't need to risk life and limb (literally) on that particular 3rd & 18. The QB needs to have big picture in mind and do the smart thing as opposed to the heroic thing.

Brady throws that ball away and punts. But then, that's why he tends to be healthy when it matters. Something Ben has long struggled with.

Sacks and injuries happen. It's football. Difference here is that he ran himself right into that sack.

.

THIS !!!

I didn't like the play call either, but so what -- run or pass, doesn't matter - the main thing is, BEN NEEDED TO THROW IT AWAY, not just to run out of the pocket and risk a huge sack, fumble or safety right there. Of course, the worst possible thing happened -- AN INJURY.

Ben held the ball way too long, and then tried to roll out and "make something happen". Dumb play. Ben needs to play smarter

Three and a half seconds to the point of breakdown.

We needed 18 yds. I have not looked at the all 22 to check all the routes.

I don't agree with comparing Ben to Brady... different skillsets. Compare him to Rodgers.

[955876]

Ben had to see Gilbert damn near on top of him. How did he think he'd escape to that side??

And without Gilbert holding which he actually should have at least tried.

Hoping that Ben plays "smarter" is a pipe dream at this point. Better to cross fingers that these things don't happen at the wrong time again next season.

[955876]

If Rex Ryan and his boys don't beat Buffalo, Ben doesn't get hurt.

So there's that

And if Ben just does what was prudent given the situation he doesn't get hurt either.

This situation is 100% on him.

[Legacy User]

At this point though I think that play ended our season.

I think this is premature at this point.

[955876]

At this point though I think that play ended our season.

I think this is premature at this point.

And I hope like hell it is premature. I'm on this ride. Just have little faith a gimpy winged Ben beats that D in Denver. Prior to that play, I thought we could get into the SB.

Now?? I think our season ends Sunday. Hope I'm wrong and he can play better than I'm expecting.

I'm just personally tired of this team being in situations as a result of their own lack of attention to detail.

Something I don't see changing under this regime.

[Thrillsseeker]

Ok so Rex didn't beat Buffalo he beat the Jets.

I do think as stated above we're better off crossing our fingers that he doesn't get hurt in the future because personally, imo our gunslinger QB is never gonna change. He ran into that ugly looking sack because he was loooking down the field trying to extend and make a play. He's always looking to make the play and hell, I enjoy it. Smarter to throw it away in that situation? Sure. But if he makes that play we're all talking about how amazing Ben is. Personally he's given me way more amazing plays than oh shit plays. Praying they pull out a win in Denver!

[LakecrestSteeler]

Seems like a lot of TMQB'ing to me. If they had run it then later lost there would be bitching about going too conservative. If Ben gets sacked but doesn't get hurt it's barely an afterthought for anybody.

In the current environment when defensive penalties for illegal contact and holding are so common I'm very reluctant to ever give up on a possession. This team is built to make that kind of shit happen on occasion.

What he said! Can't live in your fears! Come on...is this a Steeler board? You guys need to send your Chrystal ball to Tomlin. What happened to going for the big play after a turnover? That happens more often than not, not going to fault anyone for the first example I can't think of, in all my years, where momentum from a turnover goes to the team that lost the ball.

Another thing, I have mentioned before, he needs to practice a power fetal position. He needs to power his knees to his chest, bring the arms in with the ball forcefully and turtle. That position every fucking QB gets in as they get sacked, Romo comes to mind twice, is the classic injury position. Fucking practice busting Into a fetal position on inescapable contact...like a wrestling move. How fucking hard is that to practice. Don't put your arm out to brace the fall like every other fucking QB does...Ben(d) the trend Ben!

[Steelersfan]

Another thing, I have mentioned before, he needs to practice a power fetal position. He needs to power his knees to his chest, bring the arms in with the ball forcefully and turtle. That position every fucking QB gets in as they get sacked, Romo comes to mind twice, is the classic injury position. Fucking practice busting Into a fetal position on inescapable contact...like a wrestling move. How fucking hard is that to practice. Don't put your arm out to brace the fall like every other fucking QB does...Ben(d) the trend Ben![/quote]


This a thousand percent!!!!

Was talking about this today. Get Ben some film of Peyton (Master of the Fetal Position). Peyton is way slower, way more fragile, but the dude never gets hammered.

Bens oof-season homework assignment, watch Tape of Peyton folding under pressure. Learn his "fetal" position moves.

No reason for Ben to fall like he did allowing Burfict to land on him with all his weight. Ben's way strong enough to curl up to prevent what happened. Ben just gave up and went down at will.

[955876]

Can't live in your fears! Come on

Playing smart football isn't living in your fears. It just isn't.

[Legacy User]

Let me just saw - the view from the quarterback position is much different than the view from the sideline camera. I mean to drop down into a fetal position in the pocket - yeah... I can already see the responses here for that. Ben got sacked trying to get outside the pocket, it's entirely possible he was escaping to throw the ball away, maybe he felt something on the backside that wasn't there. This whole demand for better pocket presence when you have a downfield attack is stretching it quite a bit.

To me - it's putting your players in position to succeed. You can't expect players to see the right thing as if they were in the press box, and so you take your shots when your sure. 3rd and 18 deep in your own end is not one of those times. You put your players in a position to succeed by calling a draw play and realizing the current situation of the game, the chance for a momentum swing in their favor is right now, defuse it and move on.

The trick play against NE was another example, not a situation to take a shot given how well the offense was moving the ball - you put your players in a position where they weren't 'doing the things' they normally do. Antonio Brown passing the ball... oh yeah just throw it away if nothing is there... now he's thinking far too much, he's been put into a position to fail.

How about a fake field goal with a backup QB? Another instance of putting players in position to fail.

This all goes back to Todd Haley's play call ability. We've all talked about 3rd and short, and I would hope we realize that 3rd and short bombs are what all 3 men (Haley, Tomlin, Ben) want... it's not one or the other, they all want to push the ball deep... but it's other play calls that are just head scratchers given the current situation of the game that continue to bother the ever living shit out of me.

[Legacy User]

They've converted third and longs many times. This team is built to play offense. Plus almost any defensive penalty gives you a free first down. Don't give up possession of the ball on 3rd down.

Citing examples that sometimes they have bad play calls doesn't prove much.

[955876]

This whole demand for better pocket presence when you have a downfield attack is stretching it quite a bit.

I don't think it is. Not at all.

Ben isn't getting any younger and in case anyone else noticed, isn't very mobile these days.

So if you are going to have a downfield attack, you know (or should) that there will be times you simply need to throw it away.

It has to be an option. I've seen Ben actually do it this year and he should have done it Saturday.

You can have downfield passing as well as the occasional throw away.

Especially important moving forward if offseasons will continue to be spent resting.

Slow, lumbering QBs kinda need that play in their repertoire.

[Legacy User]

So if you are going to have a downfield attack, you know (or should) that there will be times you simply need to throw it away.

Sure - now go try to do that.

It's one thing to have Tom Brady know within 1.2 seconds whether he needs to throw it 10 yards to a guy in stride or 8 yards to the guys feet because it's covered. Obviously throwing it away in the pocket without taking a penalty means you have to be throwing to someone.

It's quite another to say hey, we are going to run 3 routes that are going to take 3+ seconds, you are just going to have to guess if you should throw it away somehow or whether to commit to the pass. And throwing it away - I guess you have to find a way outside the pocket first, or hope you have someone close to dump it to their feet.

Ironically this is the kind of thing Haley was supposed to do to keep Ben upright, but I think the offensive line has improved, and the weapons are just too good.

[955876]

Sure - now go try to do that.

Watch the play again. Then tell me it was a smart play or could not have been avoided. He ran right into that sack. Could have just stayed where he was and fired OOB in Wheaten's direction.

We had a third & 18 from our 17. Up 15-0 heading into 4th quarter.

Instead of playing a smart cerebral game they resorted to sandlot and lost 15 yards, the QB, and gave them great field position by having to punt from very back of EZ.

We can just agree to disagree here because I am going to hold the opinion that a HOF bound QB in his 12th season should be more cognizant of the situation.

That point in time called for more game manager and less riverboat gambler. Maybe year 13 that'll sink in.

[Legacy User]

Sure - now go try to do that.

Watch the play again. Then tell me it was a smart play or could not have been avoided. He ran right into that sack. Could have just stayed where he was and fired OOB in Wheaten's direction.

We had a third & 18 from our 17. Up 15-0 heading into 4th quarter.

Instead of playing a smart cerebral game they resorted to sandlot and lost 15 yards, the QB, and gave them great field position by having to punt from very back of EZ.

We can just agree to disagree here because I am going to hold the opinion that a HOF bound QB in his 12th season should be more cognizant of the situation.

That point in time called for more game manager and less riverboat gambler. Maybe year 13 that'll sink in.

I watched the play - and my thought was he was trying to get outside the pocket, possibly to give him the option to throw the ball away. Burfict's back was to the play, and he had the option to spin left or right. ben had a choice to go inside or outside. They just spun into each other.

Now I agree in the smart cerebral game - which for me would have been a draw play. No reason for running long routes looking for a first down. To me - you have a HOF bound QB in his 12 season specifically because he's made big plays like that before. At this point we can all agree that while it would be nice he pulls another one out, it's low percentage and the risk is far to high in terms of managing the game... so you don't give him a chance to do either... call in a draw and be done with it.

[955876]

so you don't give him a chance to do either... call in a draw and be done with it.

Exaclty.

[LakecrestSteeler]

Sure - now go try to do that.

Watch the play again. Then tell me it was a smart play or could not have been avoided. He ran right into that sack. Could have just stayed where he was and fired OOB in Wheaten's direction.

We had a third & 18 from our 17. Up 15-0 heading into 4th quarter.

Instead of playing a smart cerebral game they resorted to sandlot and lost 15 yards, the QB, and gave them great field position by having to punt from very back of EZ.

We can just agree to disagree here because I am going to hold the opinion that a HOF bound QB in his 12th season should be more cognizant of the situation.

That point in time called for more game manager and less riverboat gambler. Maybe year 13 that'll sink in.

I watched the play - and my thought was he was trying to get outside the pocket, possibly to give him the option to throw the ball away. Burfict's back was to the play, and he had the option to spin left or right. ben had a choice to go inside or outside. They just spun into each other.

Now I agree in the smart cerebral game - which for me would have been a draw play. No reason for running long routes looking for a first down. To me - you have a HOF bound QB in his 12 season specifically because he's made big plays like that before. At this point we can all agree that while it would be nice he pulls another one out, it's low percentage and the risk is far to high in terms of managing the game... so you don't give him a chance to do either... call in a draw and be done with it.

I tend to agree that he decided to move to get rid of the ball. He hardly ran into the sack. Burfect flashed just to the left of BB for a second. At that moment BB makes the decision to get out of the pocket and ditch it, is what I suspect. Burfect then does this fake spin and I suspect guesses correctly as to whether Ben would try to get out of the pocket. Keeping him in the pocket is probably a defensive tenet for that game.

If you watch the play again, the real culprit is the RB not chipping Burfect. Everyone should be chipping Burfect who's responsibility is protecting Ben. I suspect the RB had the option to run a route if no blitz detected, maybe not. I suspect Dwill stays in for max protect or chips Burfect into the wash on the way to the flat, giving the tackle and BB the extra time they need to block better and hold the pocket.

Draw is pretty predictable too...who knows the RB can always get hit and fumble too.