Tomlin Great, Average or Below Average?

[StillerDownSouth]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/mi ... goujsrp81j

Interesting article by sporting news, which I am sure many here will disagree with. Hard to ignore facts though, overall Tomlin has been an above average coach despite his many flaws I read about all the time on this esteemed site.

[Legacy User]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/mike-tomlin-steelers-careers-coach-record-hall-of-fame-super-bowls/mm5kbe5acv6m15wgoujsrp81j

Interesting article by sporting news, which I am sure many here will disagree with. Hard to ignore facts though, overall Tomlin has been an above average coach despite his many flaws I read about all the time on this esteemed site.

I posted this in another thread...another career milestone mentioned during the Giants game:

Mike's milestone

Mike Tomlin is looking for his 100th career win in Week 14 against the Bills. Tomlin would join Chuck Noll and Bill Cowher as the only Steelers coaches with 100+ wins. A win would also ensure the Steelers would not finish with a losing record this season, Tomlin in the company of George Allen, John Madden, and Vince Lombardi as the only coaches in NFL history to coach 10 or more seasons and never have a losing record in a season.

That Lombardi guy was pretty good...so was that Madden guy. Allen was an excellent coach with many playoff battles but never won a title.

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000753395

[Legacy User]

Tomlin in the company of George Allen, John Madden, and Vince Lombardi as the only coaches in NFL history to coach 10 or more seasons and never have a losing record in a season.

Well stats can be twisted around to get particular results. For instance the above anomoly is merely a PR polishing of Tomlins picture frame. I've resigned myself after all these decades to accept that most all HCs pretty much suck and are an annoyance at best. Much like referees they are best unnoticed since they are usually only spotlighted by the fanbase when blundering in ignominious defeat.

Even greats like Bill Walsh would had been nothing but a forgotten footnote of NFL history if his quarterbacks were Danny Kanell and Chuck Fusina.

[Kodiak]

Did those guys have a top-5 all-time QB their entire career? Did those guys manage only one gifted playoff win in 5+ years?

Figured not.

Yes, Tomlin is average at best. I think he's below average, but we probably won't realize that until the HOF trips retire....even Barry Switzer won a title with that - three total in Dallas will we even get one?

[Legacy User]

Unless you dopes are comparing Tomlin to the Platonic Form of Coaching rather than to other coaches, Tomlin is above average.

Other coaches with franchise QBs have done less.

Not saying Tomlin is elite, but average in comparison with the field? I don't buy it.

Consider:
A is excelllent

B+ is great

B is good, above average

C is average.

And Tomlin's win stats aren't being twisted. Get out of here with that nonsense. Those numbers are facts not interpretations.

[Kodiak]

Other coaches with franchise QBs have done less.

Ben isn't just a franchise QB, he's a HOFer an arguably an all-time great.

Other coaches have done less? How much less can you do with a HOF QB then 3 playoffs and 1 gifted win in 5+ years? That's Marvin Lewis territory....Marvin Lewis WITHOUT a HOF QB.

[Legacy User]

Other coaches with franchise QBs have done less.

Ben isn't just a franchise QB, he's a HOFer an arguably an all-time great.

Other coaches have done less? How much less can you do with a HOF QB then 3 playoffs and 1 gifted win in 5+ years? That's Marvin Lewis territory....Marvin Lewis WITHOUT a HOF QB.

Who does do well without a franchise QB? No one.

And among coaches without franchise QBs, kindly list those who have done better than Marvin? Your franchise argument does not hurt my position. Seems to me it may even support it.

No way Tomlin grades out less than a B. Give him an 83 if you wish to give him the lowest B without pushing him into B- territory.

[the-other-burg]

Since the "all-time great" coaches always seem to have "all-time great QBs" - I would be more interested to see a list of coaches that built dominant teams, without having an historically elite QB. Some recent ones I can think of:

Bill Parcells
John Harbaugh
Jim Harbaugh
Bill Cowher
Brian Billick
Mike Ditka
Pete Carroll

[Legacy User]

comparing Tomlin to other coaches is irrelevant

in this pass happy league, your opinion of Tomlin a and BR7 must be inversely proportional based on the overall body of work, heavily weighting playoff success...

If Tomlin is great, Ben not so much
If Ben is great, Tomlin not so much

Both mediocre I guess would also work but certainly not both great.....

[Legacy User]

comparing Tomlin to other coaches is irrelevant

in this pass happy league, your opinion of Tomlin a and BR7 must be inversely proportional based on the overall body of work, heavily weighting playoff success...

If Tomlin is great, Ben not so much
If Ben is great, Tomlin not so much

Both mediocre I guess would also work but certainly not both great.....

Why is it irrelevant? If Tomlin's performance is not in relation to other coaches and their roster make up, then talk of poor, average, and great is meaningless.

Doubtful you mean what you say regarding the point of irrelevance.

[jeemie]

comparing Tomlin to other coaches is irrelevant

in this pass happy league, your opinion of Tomlin a and BR7 must be inversely proportional based on the overall body of work, heavily weighting playoff success...

If Tomlin is great, Ben not so much
If Ben is great, Tomlin not so much

Both mediocre I guess would also work but certainly not both great.....

I think Tomlin is a good, not great, coach. He does some things well that a head coach should do...others he is abysmal at, like game management tactics and strategy. Compared to most of his peers, his is in the upper echelon...that doesn't make him great, though. Rarely will Tomlin's coaches outscheme other teams...usually the Steelers rely on great individual efforts.

I also think as great as Ben is, he has his inconsistencies as well...which has also played into the up-and-down nature of the unevenness of the Steelers after 2010. Of course, now this will bring the inevitable onslaught of angry "Wait until Ben is gone" posts...but Ben's inconsistency is the elephant in the room far too many people either want to explain away as others' faults, or ignore.

[Legacy User]

comparing Tomlin to other coaches is irrelevant

in this pass happy league, your opinion of Tomlin a and BR7 must be inversely proportional based on the overall body of work, heavily weighting playoff success...

If Tomlin is great, Ben not so much
If Ben is great, Tomlin not so much

Both mediocre I guess would also work but certainly not both great.....

I think Tomlin is a good, not great, coach. He does some things well that a head coach should do...others he is abysmal at, like game management tactics and strategy. Compared to most of his peers, his is in the upper echelon...that doesn't make him great, though. Rarely will Tomlin's coaches outscheme other teams...usually the Steelers rely on great individual efforts.

I also think as great as Ben is, he has his inconsistencies as well...which has also played into the up-and-down nature of the unevenness of the Steelers after 2010. Of course, now this will bring the inevitable onslaught of angry "Wait until Ben is gone" posts...but Ben's inconsistency is the elephant in the room far too many people either want to explain away as others' faults, or ignore.

Agree on Ben. The reason he has never won the MVP is bc of the aforesaid inconsistency.

[StillerDownSouth]

Did those guys have a top-5 all-time QB their entire career? Did those guys manage only one gifted playoff win in 5+ years?

Figured not.

Yes, Tomlin is average at best. I think he's below average, but we probably won't realize that until the HOF trips retire....even Barry Switzer won a title with that - three total in Dallas will we even get one?

What did Don Shula ever win with Dan Marino as his qb?

[StillerDownSouth]

Did those guys have a top-5 all-time QB their entire career? Did those guys manage only one gifted playoff win in 5+ years?

Figured not.

Yes, Tomlin is average at best. I think he's below average, but we probably won't realize that until the HOF trips retire....even Barry Switzer won a title with that - three total in Dallas will we even get one?

I guessed we returned the favor the next week when we "gifted" a playoff win to the eventual super bowl champs in their house and that was without our best 2 skill players playing.

[stinger8]

Dont even understand why this is a debate. The guy is unquestionably average. He gets points for keeping seasons together (probably like this one) when the going gets tough. Job well done

However when you have a HOF QB IN HIS PRIME and can only win 1 playoff game in 5 years AND you were fuckin lucky to do that and when you can consistently lose to inferior teams time and time again you cannot be considered any thing but average at best.

Its a results driven league and his are average at best

[Legacy User]

Average

Next question

[bradshaw2ben]

Other coaches with franchise QBs have done less.

Ben isn't just a franchise QB, he's a HOFer an arguably an all-time great.

Other coaches have done less? How much less can you do with a HOF QB then 3 playoffs and 1 gifted win in 5+ years? That's Marvin Lewis territory....Marvin Lewis WITHOUT a HOF QB.

Tony Dungy with Peyton Manning
Don Shula with Dan Marino
Coryell with Dan Fouts
McCarthy with Rodgers
Reeves with Elway
How many disappointing season did those guys have? How many playoff games did they win without top WR and or top RB? How about playoff wins with a completely turned over defense? Get real, man.

[StillerDownSouth]

How many Super Bowls has Belichek won in the last 10 years with HOF in his prime Brady at QB.

[Legacy User]

Since the "all-time great" coaches always seem to have "all-time great QBs" - I would be more interested to see a list of coaches that built dominant teams, without having an historically elite QB. Some recent ones I can think of:

Bill Parcells
John Harbaugh
Jim Harbaugh
Bill Cowher
Brian Billick
Mike Ditka
Pete Carroll

There is an easy way and there is a hard way. Doing it with out an all time great QB is difficult. BTW, you missed the guy at tampa who's name sounds like a Paint or Mustard. Gliden, Gulden? whatever. Chucky, he took Baldy's band of players and won with Brad Johnson as QB.

As for Tomlin, he isnt good, but who is good besides a few HC coaches. His best trait when he got here, he looked busy while doing nothing to change anything. The super bowl winning formula was already baked into the cake. Meaning that if the Rooneys selected a "super genius" like Kelly he would had turned over the apple cart and fucked up everything.

All in all having a HC do next to nothing isn't necessarily a bad thing. It might even be an improvement with most franchises.

[StillerDownSouth]

Since the "all-time great" coaches always seem to have "all-time great QBs" - I would be more interested to see a list of coaches that built dominant teams, without having an historically elite QB. Some recent ones I can think of:

Bill Parcells
John Harbaugh
Jim Harbaugh
Bill Cowher
Brian Billick
Mike Ditka
Pete Carroll

There is an easy way and there is a hard way. Doing it with out an all time great QB is difficult. BTW, you missed the guy at tampa who's name sounds like a Paint or Mustard. Gliden, Gulden? whatever. Chucky, he took Baldy's band of players and won with Brad Johnson as QB.

As for Tomlin, he isnt good, but who is good besides a few HC coaches. His best trait when he got here, he looked busy while doing nothing to change anything. The super bowl winning formula was already baked into the cake. Meaning that if the Rooneys selected a "super genius" like Kelly he would had turned over the apple cart and fucked up everything.

All in all having a HC do next to nothing isn't necessarily a bad thing. It might even be an improvement with most franchises.

Saying Tomlin doesn't do anything is the most ignorant statement anyone could say. He is the Head Coach aka the CEO of a major sports franchise, I am quite sure he does more than just look busy or have an over devolped line of bullshit. He is in his 10th year and has made the playofffs in 6 of the previous 9 all while playing in the most competitive division in football over the same time. The AFC north has had 18 playoff teams in the last 9 seasons and 3 super bowl appearances and 2 champions over that time. Just for comparison the AFC east has had 3 other playoff teams other than NE in the same time. One can argue some in game decisions Tomlin had made over time and prob some personnell decisions as well, but one can argue the same with any head coach.

[Legacy User]

I think he's above average with a chance yet to be great. Only another championship would cinch that.

I have a different take than some. I think the major albatross for this team has been the defensive rebuilding. They wasted way too much time trying to transition from lebeaus system to tomlins, or whatever the hell they were doing. Wish they had brought in a new face for 2011 and just knocked out the whole new system in two years tops.

Tomlin has his flaws. Winning another would cement his legacy. Making a few good honest hard pushes would put him in that tier down from truly elite.

[955876]

Did those guys have a top-5 all-time QB their entire career? Did those guys manage only one gifted playoff win in 5+ years?

Figured not.

Yes, Tomlin is average at best. I think he's below average, but we probably won't realize that until the HOF trips retire....even Barry Switzer won a title with that - three total in Dallas will we even get one?

I guessed we returned the favor the next week when we "gifted" a playoff win to the eventual super bowl champs in their house and that was without our best 2 skill players playing.

Meeeh. Are the two situations really the same?

Those Cincy plays were pretty dumb. Our "gift" as you call it was a fumble which they capitalized on.

Not really a gift...

[pickarooney]

Just a few thoughts:

Tomlin turned around the same personnel that went 8-8 the year before under a different coach. The fact that those were the same players makes it more, not less, impressive.

Ben let Tomlin down in the Green Bay superbowl more than the other way around. Doesn't seem fair to keep offering up the "elite quarterback" variable when, in key spots, Ben (unlike Rogers in that case) turned into Andy Dalton. Nonetheless, Tomlin seems to roll with the live-and-die-by-Ben approach that many of us have called for.

Love the aggressive two-pointers. The thought that you don't try because it didn't work the last time, or even the last three times, isn't logical, especially when you're fielding Ben, Bell, and Brown.

If I was to name one variable that proved the difference in the Cincy playoff game it was leadership/coaching. One team kept it together in a violent/emotional game. The other did not. And Tomlin won it with guys like Toussaint. Huge win for him. But not a surprise: he also beat Harbaugh with Charlie Batch (and damn-near did it with Dennis Dixon!)

Both Tomlin and Ben have spoiled us with a lot of winning football. Both have their share of WTF moments, but all in all they've been a great tandem. I like them both, and try to keep in mind that IT'S REALLY FUCKING HARD to win superbowls; without a little luck, a great coach may easily never do so.

[StillerDownSouth]

Did those guys have a top-5 all-time QB their entire career? Did those guys manage only one gifted playoff win in 5+ years?

Figured not.

Yes, Tomlin is average at best. I think he's below average, but we probably won't realize that until the HOF trips retire....even Barry Switzer won a title with that - three total in Dallas will we even get one?

I guessed we returned the favor the next week when we "gifted" a playoff win to the eventual super bowl champs in their house and that was without our best 2 skill players playing.

Meeeh. Are the two situations really the same?

Those Cincy plays were pretty dumb. Our "gift" as you call it was a fumble which they capitalized on.

Not really a gift...

It was a gift that AB did not suit up. Along with Bell and Pouncy, and the gift wrapped fumble. If not for the fumble by Frenchy Tomlin likely would have beat the eventual super bowl champs in their backyard without his best RB and WR. I would say that is an example of a fine coaching job.

[955876]

I can see that. But still, Cincy game was lost until two really dumb mental mistakes.

[Kodiak]

I also think as great as Ben is, he has his inconsistencies as well...which has also played into the up-and-down nature of the unevenness of the Steelers after 2010.

Yeah, well, you kind of already explained this in your first paragraph - they rely on great individual efforts. Tom Brady has bad or average days, all QB's do. When Ben has a bad day, we usually lose because the coaching does little to help this team in the way of scheming, etc.

"We do what we do" and sometimes defenses have a good game plan....and we never have adjustments or answers.

You don't consistently end-up among the top 3-5 rated QB's almost every year your entire career because you're inconsistent. And that's a little more impressive than a coach who just barely avoided a losing season a couple of times.

[Kodiak]

Just a few thoughts:

Tomlin turned around the same personnel that went 8-8 the year before under a different coach. The fact that those were the same players makes it more, not less, impressive.

Cowher was clearly burnt-out and done. The starting QB missed the first week, and probably not 100% the next, because of an appendectomy.

Oh, and his QB went thru a windshield. I think all of that had a pretty big impact on going 8-8.

One could also say Tomlin took over a team 2 years removed from a SB title, and trending back winning 6 of its last 8 games the year before.

Tomlin is a defensive coach who has struggled to rebuild and retool a top-10 defense. His offenses are unimaginative and rely on great individual efforts of a few stars. Neither of which are hallmarks of even an average HC.

[Kodiak]

It was a gift that AB did not suit up. Along with Bell and Pouncy, and the gift wrapped fumble. If not for the fumble by Frenchy Tomlin likely would have beat the eventual super bowl champs in their backyard without his best RB and WR. I would say that is an example of a fine coaching job.

So one of Tomlin's best and most memorable coaching jobs is a loss?

Like the kids used to say - close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades.

[bradshaw2ben]

I can see that. But still, Cincy game was lost until two really dumb mental mistakes.

Yeah, because one coach kept his players' emotions in check during an extremely emotional game for the most part, and the other coach did not. One coach lost control of his players and it cost him the game. How is that a gift?

[StillerDownSouth]

It was a gift that AB did not suit up. Along with Bell and Pouncy, and the gift wrapped fumble. If not for the fumble by Frenchy Tomlin likely would have beat the eventual super bowl champs in their backyard without his best RB and WR. I would say that is an example of a fine coaching job.

So one of Tomlin's best and most memorable coaching jobs is a loss?

Like the kids used to say - close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades.

Not sure where I said that was one of his best and most memorable coaching jobs, nice interpretation though. I believe many here would agree if he had won against Denver with an undermanned squad that would have qualified as impressive.