OT: Andre Johnson wants out of Houston

[jeemie]

SS blew much cap space on Harvin...wasn't much of a factor until the SB. Denver just managed to land Ware and Taleb. NE made moves on Moss, Harrison, ...and now found a way with Revis and Browner. SF added Boldin and Brooks...this year Bethea and a shitload of picks that might start. That's off the top of my head from the top 4 teams last year...we likely did less then any of them when you consider SF picks.

All these teams are already Super Bowl contenders. We'll see how much these acquisitions move the needle.

FA is good for value that can fill holes- not build a team with.

[Kodiak]

And we can afford it. Just restructure Ben now instead of at the end of the year. The "can't pay him because of Pouncey/Worilds" is just an attempt to inflame ....

You do realize a restructure is not a paycut? If it were that smart and easy there'd be about 30 teams interested in Andre Johnston instead of four.

They can't afford it - they have chosen to give that money to Pouncey and Worilds. That's not an attempt to inflame, it's pointing out reality. If that irritates you, then congratulations you are finally starting to understand how PIT has mismanaged it's cap. Took a long time and it was difficult, but you finally got there!

Sure, they could find the money for AJ if they want to blow out the cap in future years.....They're not going to do that nor is anyone advocating they do that.

[jeemie]

And we can afford it. Just restructure Ben now instead of at the end of the year. The "can't pay him because of Pouncey/Worilds" is just an attempt to inflame ....

You do realize a restructure is not a paycut? If it were that smart and easy there'd be about 30 teams interested in Andre Johnston instead of four.

They can't afford it - they have chosen to give that money to Pouncey and Worilds. That's not an attempt to inflame, it's pointing out reality. If that irritates you, then congratulations you are finally starting to understand how PIT has mismanaged it's cap. Took a long time and it was difficult, but you finally got there!

Sure, they could find the money for AJ if they want to blow out the cap in future years.....They're not going to do that nor is anyone advocating they do that.

They still have $6,477,969 in cap space before restructuring anyone.

They would not have to "blow out the cap" in future years if they wanted to try and sign Johnson.

[Legacy User]

If Worilds blows up this year, doubt he'll play for the money the Steelers will be willing to spend on him. If he does not blow up, Steelers likely let him walk. So take that money and nab AJ. Back to the OLB well in the draft. Scary. Terrible. Probably true.

[jebrick]

SS blew much cap space on Harvin...wasn't much of a factor until the SB. Denver just managed to land Ware and Taleb. NE made moves on Moss, Harrison, ...and now found a way with Revis and Browner. SF added Boldin and Brooks...this year Bethea and a shitload of picks that might start. That's off the top of my head from the top 4 teams last year...we likely did less then any of them when you consider SF picks.

The only one of those that was paying for a franchise QB is NE. Moss came at a big discount.

I count Denver as having signed there FQB to a C$2 contract. They had very cheap players and no FQB when they signed Manning. Denver will have some interesting problems. As of this year. Manning is making about 2K less than Ben this year but will make 4K more next year. Ware's contract is comparable to Timmons. They will have to figure out what to do with Von Miller after this season and Julius Thomas ( who is the 3rd highest paid TE on the team. Making less than Jacob Tamme and Joel Dreessen)

[Legacy User]

And we can afford it. Just restructure Ben now instead of at the end of the year. The "can't pay him because of Pouncey/Worilds" is just an attempt to inflame ....

You do realize a restructure is not a paycut? If it were that smart and easy there'd be about 30 teams interested in Andre Johnston instead of four.

They can't afford it - they have chosen to give that money to Pouncey and Worilds. That's not an attempt to inflame, it's pointing out reality. If that irritates you, then congratulations you are finally starting to understand how PIT has mismanaged it's cap. Took a long time and it was difficult, but you finally got there!

Sure, they could find the money for AJ if they want to blow out the cap in future years.....They're not going to do that nor is anyone advocating they do that.

you do realize that a restructure is a paycut with respect to salary cap? That's not an attempt to inflame, its pointing out reality.

And if you have a link to their liquid capital, can you post it?

I don't advocate making a run at Andre Johnson, but just know it could be done if they chose too

[lifelongsteel]

And we can afford it. Just restructure Ben now instead of at the end of the year. The "can't pay him because of Pouncey/Worilds" is just an attempt to inflame ....

You do realize a restructure is not a paycut? If it were that smart and easy there'd be about 30 teams interested in Andre Johnston instead of four.

They can't afford it - they have chosen to give that money to Pouncey and Worilds. That's not an attempt to inflame, it's pointing out reality. If that irritates you, then congratulations you are finally starting to understand how PIT has mismanaged it's cap. Took a long time and it was difficult, but you finally got there!

Sure, they could find the money for AJ if they want to blow out the cap in future years.....They're not going to do that nor is anyone advocating they do that.

They still have $6,477,969 in cap space before restructuring anyone.

They would not have to "blow out the cap" in future years if they wanted to try and sign Johnson.

Exactly right. now is one of the best opportunities we've had to make a move like this. in the near future, we gain a lot of cap flexibility. Woodley's money coming off the books. Worilds won't be getting 9.7 per. etc. yeah we've got other guys to pay, but they aren't better players than AJ.

Cue fiscal responsibility lecture and cap management seminar from mr finance

[Legacy User]

Or just cue "the Steelers don't make signings like this regardless of the money, so why do we go through this every time a good player comes free in free agency?"

[Kodiak]

They still have $6,477,969 in cap space before restructuring anyone.

They would not have to "blow out the cap" in future years if they wanted to try and sign Johnson.

They wouldn't, however they have several other extensions to do next year. They could not sign Johnson without blowing out the cap unless they let one of Worilds, Decastro, or Heyward walk. And there's no replacement for those guys on the roster, and they already have DB and TE high on their draft board next year so it's not like they can plug-in.

They'd need an average of $11.5M for Johnson each of the next 3 years. And you're already talking about moving $5M of cap into future years just to accommodate him for this year.

[Kodiak]

Cue fiscal responsibility lecture and cap management seminar from mr finance

What would be the point? You probably haven't looked at the cap in future years and don't appear to really understand how it works.

"Oh, hey, Worilds cap number will come down". Will it? It could go up an additional $2M next year. And Woodley has the same dead money next year as he does this year.

Let me just spell out next year for you. Pencil in Worilds at $10M and you are already at $127.6M. Tack on another net $2.5M for the rookie pool and you're at $130M. But, wait, we've already rolled $5M into 2015 to sign AJ for 2014.....So go find me $13.5M (less however much the cap rises) to accomodate AJ in 2015.

Looking at the Steelers over the years - always restructuring to get under the cap - they've typically had 8-9 high paid guys. Same holds true for most teams. Reality is simply if you include AJ in that mix, then you're not including one of Worilds, Decastro or Heyward. Debate that if you like, but don't pretend the cap matters only when it suits your argument.

Plenty of other teams had more cap room and flexibility than PIT to sign AJ, and few of them are falling over themselves to do it.

[Legacy User]

Cue fiscal responsibility lecture and cap management seminar from mr finance

What would be the point? You probably haven't looked at the cap in future years and don't appear to really understand how it works.

"Oh, hey, Worilds cap number will come down". Will it? It could go up an additional $2M next year. And Woodley has the same dead money next year as he does this year.

Let me just spell out next year for you. Pencil in Worilds at $10M and you are already at $127.6M. Tack on another net $2.5M for the rookie pool and you're at $130M. But, wait, we've already rolled $5M into 2015 to sign AJ for 2014.....So go find me $13.5M (less however much the cap rises) to accomodate AJ in 2015.

Looking at the Steelers over the years - always restructuring to get under the cap - they've typically had 8-9 high paid guys. Same holds true for most teams. Reality is simply if you include AJ in that mix, then you're not including one of Worilds, Decastro or Heyward. Debate that if you like, but don't pretend the cap matters only when it suits your argument.

Plenty of other teams had more cap room and flexibility than PIT to sign AJ, and few of them are falling over themselves to do it.

Damn. Carry on.

[jeemie]

Decastro is under contract through 2015.

I don't doubt other teams have more cap flexibility, but the Steelers could sign him this year if they wanted to.

[Kodiak]

Decastro is under contract through 2015.

I don't doubt other teams have more cap flexibility, but the Steelers could sign him this year if they wanted to.

Absolutely. But that would force a decision on 1 of Decastro, Worilds, or Heyward. 2 are under contract, yes, but it mandates a choice.

I'm sure it could be an interesting debate to talk about AJ for 3 years (along with an R3, at least) vs. those others. Decastro - my favorite OL - could certainly be in play. And if we could roll back the clock and choose between Decastro, Pouncey and AJ....Pouncey would be the odd man out for me.

My point was merely that they can't just sign AJ, but that it would force a difficult choice as a trade-off.

[Kodiak]

you do realize that a restructure is a paycut with respect to salary cap? That's not an attempt to inflame, its pointing out reality.

No, it is not. A restructure saves NO CAP. It simply spreads that burden over future years to shift cap space. Not an attempt to inflame, just pointing out how it actually works.

To be fair, PIT could go for broke and keep shifting hordes of money into the future beyond Ben's retirement. When he does retire, that will save you at least $15M+ a year in cap. So you CAN take on a pretty big burden that disappears in 2 years or less. But mortgaging that dividend means you're going to find good value in a young, cheap QB. It's understandable that teams don't want to leverage that dividend.

With respect to that, AJ is probably not a good play. He's big money with 1-2 years left at a high level. If you could extend him to a more favorable deal you might have something. I'm not against going for broke, but it's not how they've operated. The one place they've done really well in the draft, recently, is WR...and with Ben that makes it basically the lowest priority position. I don't disagree, but that's money they probably prefer to look at for #1 corner next year.

Looking at their needs and priorities going forward, I just don't see how they can realistically deal for AJ. IMO, Pouncey is the 1 guy they could have done the former and still worked in AJ. There's just no depth or proven alternative to any of the other guys on the table they'd need to part with to accommodate AJ. Best I can come up with is parting with Miller and hope to grab a good TE in R2, and go a little in the salary cap hole (but not terribly).

[lifelongsteel]

you do realize that a restructure is a paycut with respect to salary cap? That's not an attempt to inflame, its pointing out reality.

No, it is not. A restructure saves NO CAP. It simply spreads that burden over future years to shift cap space. Not an attempt to inflame, just pointing out how it actually works.

To be fair, PIT could go for broke and keep shifting hordes of money into the future beyond Ben's retirement. When he does retire, that will save you at least $15M+ a year in cap. So you CAN take on a pretty big burden that disappears in 2 years or less. But mortgaging that dividend means you're going to find good value in a young, cheap QB. It's understandable that teams don't want to leverage that dividend.

With respect to that, AJ is probably not a good play. He's big money with 1-2 years left at a high level. If you could extend him to a more favorable deal you might have something. I'm not against going for broke, but it's not how they've operated. The one place they've done really well in the draft, recently, is WR...and with Ben that makes it basically the lowest priority position. I don't disagree, but that's money they probably prefer to look at for #1 corner next year.

Looking at their needs and priorities going forward, I just don't see how they can realistically deal for AJ. IMO, Pouncey is the 1 guy they could have done the former and still worked in AJ. There's just no depth or proven alternative to any of the other guys on the table they'd need to part with to accommodate AJ. Best I can come up with is parting with Miller and hope to grab a good TE in R2, and go a little in the salary cap hole (but not terribly).

Your previous argument was that we "couldn't" pay for AJ. Now you are saying we could, but that it would force tradeoffs. This is a position that I have taken all along. I'm not going to spend hours doing the cap machinations to determine what the options would be for 2015 cap and beyond - I just don't enjoy overthecap.com all that much. I do know that it is an easy fit for 2014, we have some flexibility 2015 and beyond, and I probably weigh the value of the AJ addition more than most. I think our offense with AJ would be the best we've fielded in a really long time.

In any case, I can understand not wanting to go the AJ route - I'm usually on that side of the fence.

I can't understand why you insist on being a condescending jackass in almost every debate you join. Seeing a response from you gives me the same feeling as finding a strange dog's shit on my front lawn.

[Legacy User]

See, this is a weird situation for me. On one hand it's a 33 year old WR with some recent dings...on the other hand I think about some of things he could do for this offense. I can't advocate for it...yet if it were to happen I would flip out. You start thinking things like...if Munch can get some improvement from these OTs anything is possible.

[Kodiak]

I can't understand why you insist on being a condescending jackass in almost every debate you join. Seeing a response from you gives me the same feeling as finding a strange dog's shit on my front lawn.

Probably because I get tired of being told I'm wrong by people who don't really grasp the numbers/mechanisms.

Split hairs if you want, but making trade-offs is not nearly the same as being able to afford something. When you can afford something, there are no trade-offs or sacrifices. The debate is about HOW we would afford him because the cap room really isn't there. That's a pretty big distinction.

[jeemie]

I can't understand why you insist on being a condescending jackass in almost every debate you join. Seeing a response from you gives me the same feeling as finding a strange dog's shit on my front lawn.

Probably because I get tired of being told I'm wrong by people who don't really grasp the numbers/mechanisms.

Split hairs if you want, but making trade-offs is not nearly the same as being able to afford something. When you can afford something, there are no trade-offs or sacrifices. The debate is about HOW we would afford him because the cap room really isn't there. That's a pretty big distinction.

All people said was "if the Steelers wanted to, they could sign him".

[Kodiak]

All people said was "if the Steelers wanted to, they could sign him".

That's a non-starter. Every FA ever in the league, at all times, PIT could sign if they wanted to. Technically true, practically speaking it's a false statement that completely ignores their cap situation (which is still near the bottom of the league).

"...which means you're looking at someone else walking to sign an AJ, and I don't see anyone else they let walk to make that happen."

^^^^that was my first response to someone who misunderstood me. That proceeded to be followed by several pages of several people telling me I'm wrong, only to now have a few of those admit the above was, in fact, correct. So WTF were people arguing with me if they agreed with the above statement all along???

[SteelBull]

I can't understand why you insist on being a condescending jackass in almost every debate you join. Seeing a response from you gives me the same feeling as finding a strange dog's shit on my front lawn.

Probably because I get tired of being told I'm wrong by people who don't really grasp the numbers/mechanisms.

Split hairs if you want, but making trade-offs is not nearly the same as being able to afford something. When you can afford something, there are no trade-offs or sacrifices. The debate is about HOW we would afford him because the cap room really isn't there. That's a pretty big distinction.

Sorry you're tired Kodiak. Maybe because you are wrong and/or overly sensitive that could happen? I think the bigger/real point was made clearly by lifelong in the rest of his post you refer to above. But in terms of that final sentence, I have to concur with him.

[Kodiak]

Maybe because you are wrong and/or overly sensitive that could happen? I think the bigger/real point was made clearly by lifelong in the rest of his post you refer to above. But in terms of that final sentence, I have to concur with him.

No. Read the WHOLE thread and think about what is being said, and then think again before you post.

I realize now people either aren't reading earlier posts or not understanding what is being said. Like, for example you thinking Lifelong is correct when his "last post" is agreeing with my FIRST post on the subject. So not only do I not understand why Lifelong was arguing, but even after it was pointed out and explained I'm not sure why you're still saying I'm wrong and agreeing with his prior posts before he quietly flip-flopped.

For the love of the god, try reading the thread and understand what is being said before attacking people as wrong that you actually agree with but haven't realized it yet.

Good lord it's like deja vu. You're exactly the person posting and arguing with me in this thread I described a few posts ago. LMFAO. Unbelievable.

[SteelBull]

Thanks for the feedback.

Hopefully mine is more helpful to you than that was for me: When you say above "When you can afford something, there are no trade-offs or sacrifices" it illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of life. Everything is a tradeoff - just with different numbers of choices based on a whole host of factors.

Hopefully you know that and just misspoke, but it's an important distinction. Clarity is our friend I've heard a wise man say.

Have a nice Sunday. I'm going to tradeoff my time reading this board to do something even less productive now!

[lifelongsteel]

I can't understand why you insist on being a condescending jackass in almost every debate you join. Seeing a response from you gives me the same feeling as finding a strange dog's shit on my front lawn.

Probably because I get tired of being told I'm wrong by people who don't really grasp the numbers/mechanisms.

Split hairs if you want, but making trade-offs is not nearly the same as being able to afford something. When you can afford something, there are no trade-offs or sacrifices. The debate is about HOW we would afford him because the cap room really isn't there. That's a pretty big distinction.

There you go again. Try a post that doesn't include insulting other posters. Not agreeing with you doesn't equate to not grasping the numbers/mechanisms.

By the way I have a very different definition of being able to afford something. By your definition we couldn't afford Ben, as his extension will force trade offs.

[Legacy User]

I think Kodiak did a good job explaining the money part that so few of us grasp when a big name player becomes available.

The gist is the Steelers could afford it, but at the expense of shipping away investment parts for a guy that might not be here in two years, realistically. Three or four years ago, it's a good deal. All this speculation and I am certain that the trade price for getting AJ out of Houston might be prohibitive to the point of ridiculous, because he's all they really have catching the ball down there

[jebrick]

i never doubt the Steelers could afford it. I always question is he worth it.

I also think the Steelers are not willing to pay C$3 FA unless they are their own. That is the worst contract to have in the salary cap era and teams must be very careful in handing them out.

[jeemie]

I can't understand why you insist on being a condescending jackass in almost every debate you join. Seeing a response from you gives me the same feeling as finding a strange dog's shit on my front lawn.

Probably because I get tired of being told I'm wrong by people who don't really grasp the numbers/mechanisms.

Split hairs if you want, but making trade-offs is not nearly the same as being able to afford something. When you can afford something, there are no trade-offs or sacrifices. The debate is about HOW we would afford him because the cap room really isn't there. That's a pretty big distinction.

There you go again. Try a post that doesn't include insulting other posters. Not agreeing with you doesn't equate to not grasping the numbers/mechanisms.

By the way I have a very different definition of being able to afford something. By your definition we couldn't afford Ben, as his extension will force trade offs.

I also don't agree with Kodiak's general premise that it's the salary cap that's been mismanaged- rather, it's been the draft and in a few cases, WHO the Steelers have chosen to pay that has been mismanaged. I am a lot less harsh on Omar Khan than I used to be...in general, I feel there is only so much that can be done with managing the salary cap- in the end it comes down to players.

I can maybe count on one hand the number of players that I feel were actually overpaid AT THE TIME their contracts were made. Pouncey may be one of them...although I understand why the Steelers did it.